? Trick question?
Remove human bonus feat and skill points, remove his chosen ability mod. Add in the elven ability mods and bonuses thereby, and the elven racial abilities.
What's the real question?
==Aelryinth
I believe the search for the hidden meaning will turn up nothing ;)
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Here is the relevant part of the reincarnate spell.
A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores.
No. You keep the feat. You keep the skill points.
If you put the +2 into a physical stat, then that is lost.
Otherwise, that's it.
Do you keep the bonus skill point as you go up in level or just for the current levels?
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This is my home rule. All Human modifiers are removed, and elven (or whatever appropriate race) ones added. (so yes, player chooses a feat to remove, and reallocates skill points appropriately)
And I don't really care if RAW or this board says differently.
that's fantastic, but entirely unhelpful in a thread about the rules of the game. Now if it was in houserules....
Per the spell:
Mental Ability scores don't change, neither do skill ranks. But not being human, he'd lose the bonus skill point for any new levels.
Physical stats change with the new body. Rolled hit points do not. He doesn't get any mental adjustments for the new race, either, so he won't get an Elven +2 to Int.
Elf is actually as bad as halfling to come back as. He'd actually be best coming back as a dwarf, half-elf or human...straight physical stat bonus, no downside penalty.
==Aelryinth
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Per the spell:
Mental Ability scores don't change, neither do skill ranks. But not being human, he'd lose the bonus skill point for any new levels.
Physical stats change with the new body. Rolled hit points do not. He doesn't get any mental adjustments for the new race, either, so he won't get an Elven +2 to Int.
Elf is actually as bad as halfling to come back as. He'd actually be best coming back as a dwarf, half-elf or human...straight physical stat bonus, no downside penalty.
==Aelryinth
If I had a choice I'd have pick human again but...
Yep.
Reincarnate removes no feats, no skill points, and no mental ability score bonuses.
Neat. That's how I've always run it (mental scores stay the same, physical scores change) but I was never sure if that was right or not.
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I interpret the above as BASE mental ability scores don't change, but the racial modifiers to them DO.Per the spell:
Mental Ability scores don't change, neither do skill ranks. But not being human, he'd lose the bonus skill point for any new levels.
Physical stats change with the new body. Rolled hit points do not. He doesn't get any mental adjustments for the new race, either, so he won't get an Elven +2 to Int.
Elf is actually as bad as halfling to come back as. He'd actually be best coming back as a dwarf, half-elf or human...straight physical stat bonus, no downside penalty.
==Aelryinth
Explain what you mean.
I'm not sure if it's a homerule or something RAW, but i always made this reasoning:
"First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments"
Then i look at the table and see the human racial adjustment according to the spell "+2 Con". Seems pretty clear, i remove the +2 from constitution and add the new modifiers.
This makes sense on different levels, for example:
"It's possible for the change in the subject's ability scores to make it difficult for it to pursue its previous character class. If this is the case, the subject is advised to become a multiclass character."
How can a simple -2 to a physical abilty score hamper so much my character to make it not playable anymore in that class?
Then a human warrior with 16 in constitution becomes an elf, and his costitution gets cut down to 12... and then it makes a lot more sense.
If you are a human with a racial bonus to int and you reincarnate as a human you keep your +2 int and get +2 con in addition to that.
That's how I read the rules.
I WOULD handle it different but thats how I see the RAW.
Why would you handle it different?
The spell is a gamble, why does it all have to be bad?
I would just rule that being reincarnated as the same race would not change your stats at all.
So no matter what stat you had your bonus to, the new body will have the same stat as bonus. i.e. a human fighter with +2 strength will keep his +2 strength.
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I interpret the above as BASE mental ability scores don't change, but the racial modifiers to them DO.Per the spell:
Mental Ability scores don't change, neither do skill ranks. But not being human, he'd lose the bonus skill point for any new levels.
Physical stats change with the new body. Rolled hit points do not. He doesn't get any mental adjustments for the new race, either, so he won't get an Elven +2 to Int.
Elf is actually as bad as halfling to come back as. He'd actually be best coming back as a dwarf, half-elf or human...straight physical stat bonus, no downside penalty.
==Aelryinth
So you come to a rules board and spout off about not caring about RAW and then when called on it say the spell says nothing about the subject at hand so any ruling is house ruling. When it is pointed out that the rules do have something to say on the subject you add an additional word to the text, i.e. the word BASE, and say you interpret it completely different than anyone else.
You could have just stopped at saying you don't care about RAW because your entire interpretation discounts RAW. One then still wonders why you are bringing it up in a rules forum?
The spell description has a table with it. Check out the Paizo database entry for Reincarate. The table only lists physical scores.
Some important quotes:
"A reincarnated creature ... retains any class abilities, feats or skill ranks"
"First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments" (what counts as an adjustment? Only ability scores, or other stuff?
"The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form...but it doesn't automatically speak the language of the new form."
It appears that the ONLY things you keep are: your final mental ability scores, your pre-racial physical ability scores, class abilities, feats and skill ranks.
This is a bit unfair because reincarnating from Human to (say) Gnome lets you keep the bonus feat, while also gaining Gnome Magic. However, reincarnating from Gnome to Human loses you Gnome Magic.
Blackblood, you can't really deliberately plan for this, but in terms of racial traits Humans lose almost nothing (only future bonus skill ranks), but other races lose more (Gnome Magic, Orc Ferocity, etc).
I guess if you had a way to cure negative levels, you could keep dying and reincarnating until you "collect" both the Human Bonus Feat and the Half-Elf Skill Focus. Depending on how you interpret it, maybe every time you reincarnate as Human you pick up a new feat.
EDIT: Somewhat Ninja'd by LazarX
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The original stats as rolled before racial modifiers.
The spell in question can be found here:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/reincarnate.html#_reincarnateLook at the table and you will notice that the STR, DEX and CON ability scores are changed with the new form. Even if the new form would normally get a boost to at mental stat the character does not. The text says they retain nearly all of their previous memories. It has nothing to do with the original stats rolled Int, Wis, Cha are not changed.
Also:
This is my home rule. All Human modifiers are removed, and elven (or whatever appropriate race) ones added. (so yes, player chooses a feat to remove, and reallocates skill points appropriately)
And I don't really care if RAW or this board says differently.
It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed.
Feats are specifically called out in the text as being retained.
You said you don't care about RAW and were asked why post that on a rules forum. You tried to defend it saying it is all house rules. Now you are trying argue that you were consistent with RAW all along?!?
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By repeatedly casting reincarnate and restoration until you have the combo you want.How can one "munchkin" such variables?
The spell is just as likely to provide a negative result, as it is a positive one.
You have to add rules, that don't exist, to "break" this.
Wait, at 1,100 gp a pop? Let's not forget the "GM's choice" as well.
There are cheaper, more reliable ways to improve a PC.
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Blackblood, you can't really deliberately plan for this, but in terms of racial traits Humans lose almost nothing (only future bonus skill ranks), but other races lose more (Gnome Magic, Orc Ferocity, etc).
I guess if you had a way to cure negative levels, you could keep dying and reincarnating until you "collect" both the Human Bonus Feat and the Half-Elf Skill Focus. Depending on how you interpret it, maybe every time you reincarnate as Human you pick up a new feat.
You do not lose, or gain any feats.
Also, you don't get to choose any of the alternate racial traits available, and would lose any alternate racial traits.
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By repeatedly casting reincarnate and restoration until you have the combo you want.How can one "munchkin" such variables?
The spell is just as likely to provide a negative result, as it is a positive one.
You have to add rules, that don't exist, to "break" this.
Wait, at 1,100 gp a pop? Let's not forget the "GM's choice" as well.
There are cheaper, more reliable ways to improve a PC.
Yeah this has got to be the worst idea for trying to game the system I have ever heard. What GM worth his salt is going to accept that your character would legitimately let the other players kill him over and over to try and get better "ability scores" which don't exist in world.
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Yes. because Reincarnate is an example of RAW contradicting itself in a Munchkin-friendly way. At the very least it's inconsistent without any good reason for being so. So I amputate the diseased part in service of the greater whole. I actually do care about the greater whole of the game, but sometimes not everything is put together right so where a contradiction is present, I act to rule on it.
There is no contradiction and it isn't munchkin friendly. You got called on the carpet by a poster for belligerently declaring you don't care about RAW and the boards can go to the nine hells for all you care and now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing trying to make it seem as if you had a legitimate point all along.
You do not lose, or gain any feats.
I don't quite follow.
"The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like..."
I understood this to mean anything from a Human's "Bonus Feat", to a Gnome's "Gnome Magic". Do you disagree?
Also, you don't get to choose any of the alternate racial traits available, and would lose any alternate racial traits.
Why not? "Alternate racial traits may be selected in place of one or more of the standard racial traits". Why can't this apply to the new body? Sure, maybe the player doesn't get to chose them, but if a GM were to make a particular body I'd find it difficult to fault him by the rules.
EDIT: why did you bring the complication of Alternate Racial Traits in? We haven't finished discussing regular traits yet!(I agree that even if I am technically correct, this is an impractical way of improving a character. However, with or without considering ability scores, some past lives seem to be more valuable than others, which is strange.)
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You do not lose, or gain any feats.I don't quite follow.
"The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like..."
I understood this to mean anything from a Human's "Bonus Feat", to a Gnome's "Gnome Magic". Do you disagree?Also, you don't get to choose any of the alternate racial traits available, and would lose any alternate racial traits.Why not? "Alternate racial traits may be selected in place of one or more of the standard racial traits". Why can't this apply to the new body? Sure, maybe the player doesn't get to chose them, but if a GM were to make a particular body I'd find it difficult to fault him by the rules.
EDIT: why did you bring the complication of Alternate Racial Traits in? We haven't finished discussing regular traits yet!(I agree that even if I am technically correct, this is an impractical way of improving a character. However, with or without considering ability scores, some past lives seem to be more valuable than others, which is strange.)
No, you don't get the bonus feat. Feats don't change as specifically spelled out in the text.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Wow, you guys are reading a lot more into this spell than is actually written there. Let's slow down for a second.
A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject of the spell gains two permanent negative levels when it is reincarnated. If the subject is 1st level, it takes 2 points of Constitution drain instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can't be reincarnated). A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being reincarnated. A spellcasting creature that doesn't prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell.It's possible for the change in the subject's ability scores to make it difficult for it to pursue its previous character class. If this is the case, the subject is advised to become a multiclass character.
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The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn't automatically speak the language of the new form.
Now I'll address a few of the incorrect statements going on here:
No, you don't get the bonus feat. Feats don't change as specifically spelled out in the text.
This is incorrect. The spell says you RETAIN any feats that you FORMERLY posessed. It does not keep your character from gaining a new feat from being a human.
"The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form..." This means a human gets a bonus feat and bonus skill ranks, because these are abilities granted by its new form.
Also, you don't get to choose any of the alternate racial traits available, and would lose any alternate racial traits.
Why would this be the case? Just because the spell doesn't mention anything about alternate traits, that doesn't mean the new character MUST start as a completely baseline, normal version of the race. Obviously this part is up to the GM a bit, and if it were me as the GM I would roll a dice to determine any alternate traits that the creature now possessed.
I guess if you had a way to cure negative levels, you could keep dying and reincarnating until you "collect" both the Human Bonus Feat and the Half-Elf Skill Focus. Depending on how you interpret it, maybe every time you reincarnate as Human you pick up a new feat.
Yep, this is how the spell works. If you got reincarnated a bunch of time, and hit human several times, you'd be racking up bonus feats and skill points, and probably mental ability score bonuses (since racial bonuses always stack).
However, no GM should EVER allow this to happen in the character's benefit. If I saw Druid player casting reincarnate a bunch of times on another PC, I would have the Druid stripped of his power as he is going against nature by killing and rebirthing the same creature over and over to try to get something specific.|
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No, you don't get the bonus feat. Feats don't change as specifically spelled out in the text.
This is incorrect. The spell says you RETAIN any feats that you FORMERLY posessed. It does not keep your character from gaining a new feat from being a human.
Wrong, it is perfectly clear the in the text that character's mind does not change. Same memories, same mental ability scores, same skills, same feats, etc... Just as the character does not have the knowledge of a new language pop into his or her head so the character does not have the knowledge of how to perform a new feat pop into their head.
Why would this be the case? Just because the spell doesn't mention anything about alternate traits, that doesn't mean the new character MUST start as a completely baseline, normal version of the race. Obviously this part is up to the GM a bit, and if it were me as the GM I would roll a dice to determine any alternate traits that the creature now possessed.
Again because traits represent socio-environmental conditioning upon the character. His or her mind remains the same with a new body but the same conditioning as before.
Yep, this is how the spell works. If you got reincarnated a bunch of time, and hit human several times, you'd be racking up bonus feats and skill points, and probably mental ability score bonuses (since racial bonuses always stack).
No this isn't how it works. You do not get new feats and skills each time. Your mind remains the same, body changes.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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No, you don't get the bonus feat. Feats don't change as specifically spelled out in the text.
This is incorrect. The spell says you RETAIN any feats that you FORMERLY posessed. It does not keep your character from gaining a new feat from being a human.
Wrong, it is perfectly clear the in the text that character's mind does not change. Same memories, same mental ability scores, same skills, same feats, etc... Just as the character does not have the knowledge of a new language pop into his or her head so the character does not have the knowledge of how to perform a new feat pop into their head.
Why would this be the case? Just because the spell doesn't mention anything about alternate traits, that doesn't mean the new character MUST start as a completely baseline, normal version of the race. Obviously this part is up to the GM a bit, and if it were me as the GM I would roll a dice to determine any alternate traits that the creature now possessed.Again because traits represent socio-environmental conditioning upon the character. His or her mind remains the same with a new body but the same conditioning as before.
Yep, this is how the spell works. If you got reincarnated a bunch of time, and hit human several times, you'd be racking up bonus feats and skill points, and probably mental ability score bonuses (since racial bonuses always stack).No this isn't how it works. You do not get new feats and skills each time. Your mind remains the same, body changes.
@Patientwolf, if you want to run the spell that way, you're houseruling it. The spell says exactly what characters retain and what they gain.
The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn't automatically speak the language of the new form.
This says the creature gains ALL abilities associated with its new form. All racial traits are abilities, even if they're mental ones.
Just as reincarnating into an elf would give you Weapon Familiarity (because it's a RACIAL ABILITY, doesn't matter if it's based on upbringing or what), and Skill Focus in any one skill for becoming a half-elf, you'd gain a bonus feat and bonus skill points from becoming a human because of humans' inherent adaptability.
That's how the spell functions as written. If you change it, you're no longer following the rules, which is fine, but you can't argue otherwise in the RULES forum.
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@Patientwolf, if you want to run the spell that way, you're houseruling it. The spell says exactly what characters retain and what they gain.
I'm not houseruling anything. We've been over and over again in this thread on what it says. It says feats, skills, etc...don't change specifically regardless of how you and others want to twist things to make it look broken.
I'm quitting now on the basis that like the Antagonize thread this one is all about a few people who don't like the way something works and are going to try and twist, wrangle and deceive in order try and win an argument that cannot be won on its merits.
Final Word: Reincarnate does exactly what the text says. You get a change of physical ability scores, you gain no new feats or skills but do gain the abilities associated with the new physical form. Those are the facts and they will not change.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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@Patientwolf, if you want to run the spell that way, you're houseruling it. The spell says exactly what characters retain and what they gain.I'm not houseruling anything. We've been over and over again in this thread on what it says. It says feats, skills, etc...don't change specifically regardless of how you and others want to twist things to make it look broken.
I'm quitting now on the basis that like the Antagonize thread this one is all about a few people who don't like the way something works and are going to try and twist, wrangle and deceive in order try and win an argument that cannot be won on its merits.
Final Word: Reincarnate does exactly what the text says. You get a change of physical ability scores, you gain no new feats or skills but do gain the abilities associated with the new physical form. Those are the facts and they will not change.
I'm sorry if it's frustrating to you, but I truly believe you are reading the spell incorrectly. You're basing your argument in the INTENT of the spell... that the creature keeps its old mind in its entirety and only changes bodies. I agree that that's the intent. But, the MECHANICS of the spell are not written that way.
The spell says you RETAIN all of your old feats and mental ability scores and the like, and then it says you GAIN all of the new abilities associated with your new race. It doesn't matter if those are abilities that would require training or socioeconomical mumbo-jumbo in the real world, you still get them, because that's what the spell says.
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Ah I remember when I was human, that was 4-5 lives ago. Half-Orc was an interesting first event, half elf was very nice, but the 2nd time I ended up as a gnome, guess that made this the best fit. Immortality is such an interesting thing.
It spells out that your skill ranks don't change. That shoots down suddenly gaining more skill ranks by becoming human. You would get human bonus skill points going forwards.
I would find it...difficult for any DM to interpret that going from human to human would net you an extra, diferent bonus feat each time. Ditto half-elf...if you already had a Skill Focus feat from being a half-elf, I simply can't see a DM saying you get another one. I'd probably let slide getting a new Skill Focus feat if you used to be human...but certainly not over and over and over again.
So, in essence, you want to go from a human/half-elf with a mental stat mod, to a half-elf/human and pick up +2 to Dex or Con, and one free feat. Human to half-elf looks like the better way overall.
I suppose a wish or limited wish spell could get you the race and/or gender of your choice. Or you could do like the Serpent Folk do, and control the results precisely with their advanced alchemy and magic.
==Aelryinth
Pfffft. If I were a twinky munchkin and I would have spent 55,000 gold on a Manual of bodily health +2, I would absolutely spend 3,000 a few times on restorations so I can become a race with a +2 racial bonus I didn't have before, with no penalty to my mental stats.
In my previous group, we just stripped off all racial abilities and skinned on the new ones since the whole group thought it was the fair way to run things -- even the player who died and became a dwarf acknowledge that it would be kind of ripped to keep his feat.
Further, when my most recent group formed we had a player seriously/joking about his character dying at some point so he could reincarnate into a race with different modifiers. That game's GM quickly warned her that there would be consequences to that kind of behavior.
Part of the trouble here is the disagreement regarding what constitutes a 'form's abilities'. Some people seem to think it's all racial features, from strength bonuses to being able to cast spell-like abilities, while other people seem to think that a form's abilities only consist of a creature's physical attributes -- including a dwarf's resistance to poison but excluding a gnome's defensive training against giants, for example.
That PFS banned this may not be conclusive, but it could serve as a hint regarding the spell's relationship to the idea of fair play.