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(we are running...
Mind the spoilers, please. It's not relevant to your question.
DO ALL DODGE BONUS ALLWAYS STACK? or is there some kind of limit?
Dodge Bonuses: "Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other."
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What else can he besides not get hit? :)
When my bad guys can't hit someone they go for an easier target.
What wraithstrike said, that and dont forget about CMD. As a small character with a strength penalty, his cmd probably wont match up to big stompy monsters even with all the dodge. Get something big to bullrush him into a pit, or grapple and pin him and you are covered. And if that doesnt work, just go around him and his obsenely high ac but little offensive abilities and kill the other members of the party. There are problems with going super AC and having no attack, show him what they are.
You might also want to talk to him about the character and mention that you will have to often deliberately circumvent is defenses if he doesnt make a more reasonable character. Which will lead to antagonism between you two.
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Defender of the Society is a +1 trait bonus only when in medium or heavy armor. That will cut his movement down, and limit his dex to +3 (unless he has armor training).
Be thankful he hasn't yet discovered Helpful (+4 when aiding another) and Blundering Defense (gives half his dodge bonus to adjacent allies when fighting defensively).
Attack defensively to aid another = +2 AC to all adjacent allies and potentially +6 AC to the aided ally.
(My Halfling shielded fighter does squat damage and only moves 15 ft a round, but damn, she's a cool support character!)
Also, dodge bonuses do not apply when the character is denied his dex bonus for any reason (flat footed, blind, etc.).
That's not power gaming in my books.
He's optimized for defense.And yes, dodge bonuses stack.
Assuming an 18 dex (being generous) and a +1 chailmail shirt, AC of 28
So what's the worry? he'll be doing pathetic damage.
Post the whole build.
Only 28? If you throw crane style in there I bet you could break into the thirties.
My tank build is two levels of Master of Many Styles to get Crane Ripost by level 2 then Dawnflower Dervish the rest of the way. I use rings of spell knowledge to get some ac buffs in there too.
+5(Dex)+6(+1 Mithril Kikko)+1(Dodge)+4(Fighting Defensivly)+4(Shield Spell)+3(Barkskin)+2(RoP +2)+1(Jinbasa of the Fortunate Soldier)= 36AC
Also pretty accurate because I"m using dex to hit and get +4 to hit from my bardic dance and have access to heroism and several other buffs to hit.
Edit: Forgot Rose Prism Ion Stone so 37 AC
You need the Antagonize feat to force opponents to attack you :-)
Oooo! And Mobility so you can suck up attacks of opportunity!
Also, I'm not sure, but I think mithral medium armor doesn't qualify for the +1 defender of the society bonus, since mithral makes it count as one category lighter.
Also, I'm not sure, but I think mithral medium armor doesn't qualify for the +1 defender of the society bonus, since mithral makes it count as one category lighter.
Mithral: "Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations."
Defender of the Society: "You gain a +1 trait bonus to Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor."
I don't think the trait is considered a limitation.
Looking at the way these traits interact, I'm not sure the math is correct:
Threatening defender: When you use Combat Expertise, reduce the number you subtract from your melee attack rolls by 1.
Exotic Weapon Prof (Madu): If you are proficient with the madu, you may wield it and fight defensively with a –2 penalty instead of the normal–4 penalty for fighting defensively, and your attack penalty for using Combat Expertise improves by +1 (minimum –1 penalty).
So the normal minuses would be:
Combat Expertise: -2 (for +2 dodge bonus)
Fighting defensively: -4
Total: -6
Adjusted would be
Combat expertise: -1 (from Threatening defender; Madu doesn't kick in yet because it has to leave you with a minimum -1 penalty)
Fighting defensively: -2 (from the Madu)
Total: -3
Still, that's a good trade off for +6 AC.
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Why is it there seem to be so many DMs who see a character with a little specialization in some field- be it dishing out damage or avoiding it- and throw up his hands and cry foul?
Because you have a lot of new GMs who have not learned to deal with these things and they get frustrated.
Us older GMs just laugh at the one trick pony characters and move on with the game. ;-)
I do not really see this as all that overpowered. Why?
Yes, you may never be able to hit him with a melee attack, or in fact anything that targets AC. But with the reduced attack bonus for always fighting defensively and using Combat Expertise, he's also not going to be able to hit as often.
And all that it takes to work around some of his carefully-stacked AC is to flat-foot him somehow - or just put him at the center of a couple of AoE attacks that don't care about his AC anyway.
Actually, I might toy around this build if any of my current characters die. ;)
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Another important point is that this character will have poor will saves so just daze him or something similar. If you can't attack he looses half his AC. It is a Double edge sword. It also means that in a fight he is less likely to take a moment to step back and drink a potion or anything because if he does his AC crashes.
I actually have a character like this. He is actually a urban barbarian with crane style. He is at crane wing so far. He is hard to hit (very had to hit) and can hit regularly but doesn't do a ton of damage. And the fighter version will do even less (my guy gets dex to damage) and he has 2 skill points per level so he won't do well in social encounters.
I wouldn't worry about it. Let him have his one thing that is good. He gave up everything else for it.
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AC? Is that something to eat? Fireball, quickened magic missile (cast with 4th level slot due to Magical Lineage trait). Still standing? Oh, look, another fireball followed by quickened magic missile...
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AC? Is that something to eat? Fireball, quickened magic missile (cast with 4th level slot due to Magical Lineage trait). Still standing? Oh, look, another fireball followed by quickened magic missile...
A true defense build will walk right through that, taking little to no damage.
Consider the MoMS 2/Kensai X idea I sketched on another thread yesterday. Not only high AC, but Dex is his best save, has evasion, and is already using using the shield spell.
The build I posted earlier has evasion and can easily get a 14+ reflex save by level 7.
High AC is defeated by numbers
have 20 of anything and on average once per round target gets hit with nat20 which is an auto hit, odds are it won't crit but that doesn't matter
you could instead have a group giving their boss +2 assist bonuses to beat that AC since you can stack up assists as much as you like using cheap mooks.
Or pretty much any save or suck effect especially if the suck effect kills their AC bonuses
Any solo high CR encounter will mow through a high AC as well
Stinking Cloud.
Where is your AC now, why is it not helping you?
Of course there's always "Hey look! I rolled a 20!"
Or "You didn't win initiative this time? Aw, poor flat-footed baby."
Probably the best way to handle "monster" AC builds is ignore them. If they can't hit and can't do damage, why bother attacking them at all.
That's exactly is why I went the party support route with my defensive Halfling build ("Take 2 AC and call me after the fight!"), and why Antagonize is a great feat for this character, too.
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Stinking Cloud.
Where is your AC now, why is it not helping you?
Of course there's always "Hey look! I rolled a 20!"
Or "You didn't win initiative this time? Aw, poor flat-footed baby."
Probably the best way to handle "monster" AC builds is ignore them. If they can't hit and can't do damage, why bother attacking them at all.
That's exactly is why I went the party support route with my defensive Halfling build ("Take 2 AC and call me after the fight!"), and why Antagonize is a great feat for this character, too.
Antagonize also means that that you are a target for all spells.
I do also have a build that focuses on supporting the party. The halfling feat chain is designed to do just that.
High Ac build character really only contribute if they plan on taking feats and abilites that allow them them shield their allies with their beefy AC.
shielding the full casters with high AC = Solid play
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Traits:
Defender of the Society (+1 trait AC)
Threatening Defender (reduces by 1 penalty for fighting on the defensive)
Minor point:
These two traits are Combat Traits. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that a character could only have one trait of a specific type.As to the original question, intelligent creatures that realize they cannot get through his defenses easily may switch to other attacks (disarm, sunder, trip, grapple, dirty trick, etc). As a Halfling, I am guessing his CMD will be 22, which is quite a bit better than 28...and loosing his madu will make things easier. Just don't have opponents go for combat maneuvers from the start and vary them based on the type of enemy.
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Yes all dodge bonuses stack there is no limit, nor should there be. If anything there needs to be more sources for extra AC available. Even when you stack everything you can find, the players who stack attack bonuses will still hit you most of the time. Be thankful he's making a defensive character and not something actually game breaking like a barbarian alchemist. At 7th level with a 34str +18/13 to hit doing 3d6+26 damage (and that's without adding anything fancy to the mix, the true power gamers could probably stack way more on to that)
Easy way around dodge bonuses that anyone can use: Feint
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have 20 of anything and on average once per round target gets hit with nat20 which is an auto hit, odds are it won't crit but that doesn't matterAny solo high CR encounter will mow through a high AC as well
Unless your intention is to wipe the entire party, neither option is really viable.
An AC build can easily pull CR +30 AC by mid levels. Anything that can hit that reliably will decimate the rest of the group.
As for natural 20's, you'll need to roll 2 of those on the same turn fighting a MoMS 2/Kensai X build due to crane wing.
Save or suck spell work, but before you start spamming them remember, they work on everybody else in the group too.
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Why would it be a gamebreaker for a character with a high AC to accomplish something with that high AC (in this case protecting the squishy party members, practicing good teamwork, and being a contributing member of the party.)
Because many people on the forums insist that high DPR is the only answer. Anything that challenges that assumption must rendered ineffective.
In a level playing field where encounters are not tailored to render specific play styles invalid, high AC builds work for most encounters.
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As to the original question, intelligent creatures that realize they cannot get through his defenses easily may switch to other attacks (disarm, sunder, trip, grapple, dirty trick, etc). As a Halfling, I am guessing his CMD will be 22, which is quite a bit better than 28...and loosing his madu will make things easier. Just don't have opponents go for combat maneuvers from the start and vary them based on the type of enemy.
Dodge bonuses add to CMD.