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when using elemental spell, does the descriptor for the spells energy type change when i prepare it? could i prepare a spell as an elemental spell (cold) and then also apply rime spell to it?
"Benefit: Choose one energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. You may replace a spell's normal damage with that energy type or split the spell's damage, so that half is of that energy type and half is of its normal type. An elemental spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level."
Yes, it changes the descriptor to the energy used. Just remember to add the level adjustment for both Elemental Spell and Rime Spell (so an Elemental (Cold) Rime version of a spell would take up a slot two levels higher; i.e., an Elemental (Cold) Rime fireball would be a 5th level spell).
ok, someone on the forum told me that it didnt change the descriptor and i was looking for clarification, since it doesnt outright say that it changes the descriptor of the spell
The descriptor is based on the effect(s) of the spell; it is not independent. An Elemental (cold) fireball that does all its damage as cold energy retaining the fire descriptor fails the common sense test.
which was my opinion as well, though if someone were to tell me that i cant prepare it even if i change its descriptor due to it being part of an opposed school (lets say i chose the fire elemental school as my opposition) would changing the descriptor then have some effect on my ability to prepare it without having to waste 2 slots?
It does not change the descriptor. There is no general rule saying a spell that does X damage has the X type.
The feat changes the energy, but not the type. One of the devs even said this. Now in my games it does but for official rules, no.
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Yes, far as I know just figure it normally, if it does 40 damage then 20 is fire and 20 would be cold/ice damage then apply the appropriate resistance and immunities to the appropriate damage and total the results.Just a quick follow-up question on Elemental Spell.
How does a spell with split damage types (say a half Fire and half Ice fireball.) affects creatures with resistance or immunity to only 1 of the elemental types?
Do such creatures have any protection at all vs such a mix elemental spell?
Ok good. Cos I was been told by a fellow player that mix elemental damage from 1 source bypass immunities and resistance, unless the creature is immune or resistance to BOTH types of energy.
Something which I find totally broken, as that defeats the entire purpose of immunities and resistances in the first place.
and we have conflict...
does someone have a link to where the devs said that? and is there a way to prepare a spell that doesnt have cold as the descriptor with rime spell?
The Elemental Spell feat ONLY changes the type of damage the spell does; it doesn't change the type, alas.
Now James is not the "rules guy" but the feat says nothing about changing the spell type. There is also no general rule that says every spell that does damage X is that type of spell.
Now I will admit that is extremely nitpicky, and also I think it was just an oversight, but that is RAW.
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I've been wondering the same thing. Building a Wizard right now and trying to decide between Evoker and Conjurer. Good to see at least a semi-official answer—thanks Wraithstrike!
FWIW, here's the link for the quotation Wraithstrike offers, and the full post:
If a elemental wizard has the Elemental Spell feat (APG) and uses that feat to change the spell energy, is it still a Cold spell in regard to requiring 2 slots and not counting as a Fire spell for other feats that enhance fire spells?
To clarify what I mean, here is an example. Normally a Fire Elementalist who wants to cast Cone of Cold must uses 2 spell slots to prepare it. But, if he uses the Elemental Spell feat to make it into a Cone of Fire, is it now a Fire spell so one slot plus all the benefits of being a Fire spell, or is it still mechanically a Cold spell?
It does indeed still take 2 spell slots to prepare. The Elemental Spell feat ONLY changes the type of damage the spell does; it doesn't change the type, alas. Of course, the "reverse" is true as well; if you have an effect that, say, increases the damage of any Fire spell you cast and you cast fireball on an efreeti but use Elemental Spell to make the fireball do cold damage... the "coldball" still gets the boost to damage from your Fire enhancing effect.
Of course... I could see the logic of saying that changing a spell's energy damage type also automatically changes its type; a GM could certainly rule it works that way if he wishes.
A related question I've been wondering at:
How does the Admixture school's Versatile Evocation power interact with the elemental Metamagics from UM?
Unlike Elemental Spell, Versatile Evocation does explicitly change the descriptor.
Case #1: Prepare a rime fireball, on casting admix fire to ice — do you get the Rime befit?
Case #2: Prepare a burning fireball, on casting admix fire to ice — do you keep the Burning benefit?
Here are the relevant texts.
Versatile Evocation (Su): When you cast an evocation spell that does acid, cold, electricity, or fire damage, you may change the damage dealt to one of the other four energy types. This changes the descriptor of the spell to match the new energy type. Any non-damaging effects remain unchanged unless the new energy type invalidates them (an ice storm that deals fire damage might still provide a penalty on Perception checks due to smoke, but it would not create difficult terrain). Such effects are subject to GM discretion. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
Burning Spell (Metamagic)
You cause creatures to take extra damage when you affect them with a spell that has the acid or fire descriptor.Benefit: The acid or fire effects of the affected spell adhere to the creature, causing more damage the next round. When a creature takes acid or fire damage from the affected spell, that creature takes damage equal to 2 x the spell's actual level at the start of its next turn. The damage is acid or fire, as determined by the spell's descriptor. If a burning spell has both the fire and acid descriptor, the caster chooses what kind of damage is dealt by the burning spell effect. A burning spell uses up a slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.
Rime Spell (Metamagic)
Creatures damaged by your spells with the cold descriptor become entangled.Benefit: The frost of your cold spell clings to the target, impeding it for a short time. A rime spell causes creatures that takes [sic] cold damage from the spell to become entangled for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell.
This feat only affects spells with the cold descriptor. A rime spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.
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The Elemental Spell feat ONLY changes the type of damage the spell does; it doesn't change the type, alas.Now James is not the "rules guy" but the feat says nothing about changing the spell type. There is also no general rule that says every spell that does damage X is that type of spell.
Now I will admit that is extremely nitpicky, and also I think it was just an oversight, but that is RAW.
This does have some funny effects. E.g. my fire magic missile does full damage to incorporeal creatures (because it's still, technically, a "force" spell). Must be an oversight ...
Text.
Elemental Spell (Metamagic)
You can manipulate the elemental nature of your spells.Benefit: Choose one energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. You may replace a spell's normal damage with that energy type or split the spell's damage, so that half is of that energy type and half is of its normal type. An elemental spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you must choose a different energy type.
a rime fireball cannot be prepared RAW by the official ruling, tho ive gotten it past a gm without him even asking about it because of common sense ruling, probably
the only legal way i can think of to use it is to admix it and spontaneously apply rime spell via a metamagic rod, since the descriptor changes when you cast it, thus making it spontaneous, and the rod also need not be prepared in advance
sorcerers also have several options to do this with bloodlines, but they have no way of changing the descriptor using metamagic feats
basically, no matter how hard i try, i cannot validate Elemental Spell's existence without house rules
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a rime fireball cannot be prepared RAW by the official ruling, tho ive gotten it past a gm without him even asking about it because of common sense ruling, probably
You've seen an official ruling on this? Could you give me the link? It's bugging me, would love to get it settled.
the only legal way i can think of to use it is to admix it and spontaneously apply rime spell via a metamagic rod, since the descriptor changes when you cast it, thus making it spontaneous, and the rod also need not be prepared in advance
Yup. Metamagic rods or Preferred Spell:
Benefit: Choose one spell which you have the ability to cast. You can cast that spell spontaneously by sacrificing a prepared spell or spell slot of equal or higher level. You can apply any metamagic feats you possess to this spell when you cast it. This increases the minimum level of the prepared spell or spell slot you must sacrifice in order to cast it but does not affect the casting time.
basically, no matter how hard i try, i cannot validate Elemental Spell's existence without house rules
Srsly.
a rime fireball cannot be prepared RAW by the official ruling, tho ive gotten it past a gm without him even asking about it because of common sense ruling, probablyYou've seen an official ruling on this? Could you give me the link? It's bugging me, would love to get it settled.
the quote from james above is as close to an official ruling as we need for the purpose of the question
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the quote from james above is as close to an official ruling as we need for the purpose of the questiona rime fireball cannot be prepared RAW by the official ruling, tho ive gotten it past a gm without him even asking about it because of common sense ruling, probablyYou've seen an official ruling on this? Could you give me the link? It's bugging me, would love to get it settled.
I don't see how the quotation answers the new question, about the Versatile Evocation ability. It does answer the question about Fireball + Rime Spell + Elemental Spell, but (unless I'm missing something obvious) it doesn't address Fireball + Rime Spell + Versatile Evocation.
there really isnt anything that says you cannot prepare a spell with rime spell that doesnt have the cold descriptor, unless the text that says:
This feat only affects spells with the cold descriptor.
satisfies that, which my interpretation reads as saying you cannot prepare a spell without the cold descriptor with rime spell
the Rime Metamagic Rod imples that you can only apply it to spells with the cold descriptor as well
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there really isnt anything that says you cannot prepare a spell with rime spell that doesnt have the cold descriptor, unless the text that says:
This feat only affects spells with the cold descriptor.satisfies that, which my interpretation reads as saying you cannot prepare a spell without the cold descriptor with rime spell
Yep, that's the question. There's similar "does not affect" language in many metamagic feats. So obviously we at least have the RAW:
** The metamagic feat will not affect (alter) the wrong sort of spell prepared/cast with that metamagic. — You can try to *empower* Bless, but it takes a higher spell slot to no effect.
But does that entail this? —
** You cannot even prepare the wrong sort of spell with that metamagic.
If the first, Rime Spell or Burning Spell or the like will work with Versatile Evocation. If the second, that won't get off the ground.
(Though Versatile Evocation + Rime Metamagic Rod or Preferred Spell + Versatile Evocation + Rime Spell or the Elemental (Water/Cold) Sorcerer bloodline arcana + Rime Spell look like they'll all work. Which, given the Elemental Spell doesn't change type ruling, leads to some oddness with the Sorcerer: Bloodline Arcana + Rime Spell + Elemental Spell — Watch out for my Rime Lightningball, no ice damage required!)
(Though Versatile Evocation + Rime Metamagic Rod or Preferred Spell + Versatile Evocation + Rime Spell or the Elemental (Water/Cold) Sorcerer bloodline arcana + Rime Spell look like they'll all work. Which, given the Elemental Spell doesn't change type ruling, leads to some oddness with the Sorcerer: Bloodline Arcana + Rime Spell + Elemental Spell — Watch out for my Rime Lightningball, no ice damage required!)
The frost of your cold spell clings to the target, impeding it for a short time. A rime spell causes creatures that takes cold damage from the spell to become entangled for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell.
emphasis mine
as you can see, even with changing the descriptor which makes the spell eligible for use with Rime Spell, you still need to do cold damage because of the text of the feat
you need cold descriptor AND cold damage
you can still do half cold damage with you lightning bolt, mr. Ice King
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Ah yes, I should've remembered that. It was late! As long as we're brainstorming weird nitpicky things to do, I think Concussive Spell forgets that limitation. So watch out for my Concussive Ice Scream (via Elemental Spell)!
Concussive Spell (Metamagic)
You cause creatures to be disoriented when you affect them with a spell that has the sonic descriptor.
Benefit: With sonic damage comes a concussive wave of energy that rattles creatures affected by the spell.
A concussive spell causes creatures that take damage from a spell that has the sonic descriptor to take a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks for a number of rounds equal to the actual spell level of the spell. A concussive spell only affects spells with the sonic descriptor. A concussive spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.
Would a sorcerer with the dragonic bloodline(black) be able to get the extra +1 dmg per die on spells with the [acid] descriptor when changeing something like fireball or magic missile into acid damage?
Could he make a half acid half force magic missile and apply the toppling metamagic to it, doing 1d4+2+free trip atempt/missile?
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Would a sorcerer with the dragonic bloodline(black) be able to get the extra +1 dmg per die on spells with the [acid] descriptor when changeing something like fireball or magic missile into acid damage?
Could he make a half acid half force magic missile and apply the toppling metamagic to it, doing 1d4+2+free trip atempt/missile?
No, a Sorcerer with the Draconic (Black) bloodline does not receive the +1 bonus to damage when using the Elemental Spell feat to modify a non-acid spell to deal acid damage (whether in whole or in part).
Because (i): "Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell with an energy descriptor that matches your draconic bloodline's energy type, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled" (link; emphasis added).
Because (ii): RAW, Elemental Spell changes the damage but not the descriptor. This is the conclusion of the above discussion. I'd probably let it modify if I were GM, but that's a different matter.
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That said, this sort of thing is possible via the Crossblooded Archetype from UM, which (among other things) grants you the Bloodline Arcana of both Bloodlines. Cross the Draconic (Black) Bloodline with Elemental (Earth) Bloodline or the Shaitan Bloodline:
Elemental (Earth): "Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell that deals energy damage, you can change the type of damage to match the type of your bloodline. This also changes the spell's type to match the type of your bloodline" (link).
Shaitan: "Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell that deals energy damage, you can change the type of damage to acid. This effect also changes the spell's descriptors to match this energy type" (link).
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But your Magic Missile example would still be in trouble. Because (i) these abilities change the descriptor such that Toppling Spell would no longer work (because "Toppling Spell only affects spells with the force descriptor"; link). And (ii) I'm not sure they could affect Magic Missile anyway. Notice in those cases that the Bloodline Arcana only modifies spells that deal energy damage. Now, I can't find a solid definition of what counts as "energy damage" and what doesn't, but going on the basis of Resist Energy, it looks like it's the following: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. So no changing your Magic Missile into an acid spell (unless I'm wrong force also counts as energy damage).
So use elemental spell fire to make magic missile deal half fire/half force then use the elemental bloodline to change the fire damage to acid for free, adding the acid descriptor and still dealing force damage
does [force] count as an element? I'm pretty sure RAW it is ineligible for use with elemental spell.
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Elemental Spell. RAW: "You may replace a spell's normal damage ..." Nothing about it only affecting elemental damage, or even altering any of the spell's effects. So, a water spell changed to fire damage still putting out flames etc.
I mean, all this thread really comes to is that, RAW, Elemental Spell is kinda silly. Right?
Choose one energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. You may replace a spell’s normal damage with that energy type or split the spell’s damage, so that half is of that energy type and half is of its normal type.
Sonic and Force are not included, perhaps in an errata they may be, but as written you can only affect the main 4 energy types.
THe part I'm annoyed with about Elemental spell is the lack of a true "earth" substitution. Acid ain't gonna do it for me, I'd rather be able to change the damage type to untyped (physical). A fireball et al becomes essentially a shrapnel grenade.
Choose one energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. You may replace a spell’s normal damage with that energy type or split the spell’s damage, so that half is of that energy type and half is of its normal type.Sonic and Force are not included, perhaps in an errata they may be, but as written you can only affect the main 4 energy types.
You can only turn a spell into acid, cold, electricity or fire, dosn't say anything about what you can change it from, the spells 'normal' damage could be negative energy damage and this feat would still work