|
Something I've been mulling over for the last few days involves the rogue. On paper they are marketed as the assassin's and thieves of the world, able to slink out and around the map and do what they need to do without ever being noticed. The problem I always find is that in practice this never seems to pan out with things like stealth either being ruined by the very team focused dynamic of the game (hard to stealth when you have your full-plate fighter chugging along behind you), the high risk for minimal reward of scouting (the issue that he who splits from the party is usually the one that's going to get killed first) and minimal ability to mitigate this issue, and the worry of sidelining the rest of the party for long periods of time to let this one character to shine. Now I love the rogue and the story it is trying to allow the player to bring to the table but I'm wondering what ways we could see improvement to the system through things like new talents, feats, and game design to allow this character to work without being either handicapped by the mechanics or sidelining the rest of the party?
Preferably I would like to see changes that give new options rather then completely rewrite the class but I am willing to hear whatever. I know one thing I would like to see is some way to boost sneak attack damage in specific situations like "deal double sneak attack damage to a character to you catch flat-footed due to stealth". this would allow a rogue to really play up those stealth kills we all want to see but require that the player put in the work to get it as well as allow those aforementioned long solo stealth sequences to become a much quicker affair.
Remember that any ability your rogue can get can just as easily be used against your party. Do you want the boss rogue (who doesn't have a party to worry about) to be able to double sneak attack you every time someone fails a perception check?
Remember that any ability your rogue can get can just as easily be used against your party. Do you want the boss rogue (who doesn't have a party to worry about) to be able to double sneak attack you every time someone fails a perception check?
I'd rather enemy/boss rogues be scarily dangerous on occasion rather than sad, pathetic jokes of an enemy type.
The closest I've ever come to dying from an enemy rogue is when they had powerful magic weapons and human Bane arrows, and that's just because nobody on our team rolled over a 3 for like 4 rounds straight.
Add to the pile of problems that the rules on stealth are such a mess and that you can't steal a chicken.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Add to the pile of problems that the rules on stealth are such a mess and that you can't steal a chicken in a highly contrived scenario specifically set up to cause the rogue to fail.
Fixed that for you.
Though it's true the Stealth rules could be better (they don't function well with the team dynamic most of the time), I often observe that it's not the skill that's messed up, it's the GMs who are messing it up by not designing encounters that allow the rogue some opportunities to (realistically) use his abilities. I've also seen a lot of players play rogues foolishly, which doesn't help either.
Scenarios like A Man In Black's chicken stealing test are easy to circumvent.
You don't come from the bushes at the front of the farm house where the farmer can see you. That's dumb.
You sneak around back and come at the chicken house from the corn field.
You don't run up to the chicken house with a guard dog. He will smell you, likely bite you, and alert the farmer. That's dumb.
You stay downwind and snipe the dog from the cornfield with your crossbow, dealing sneak attack damage and killing it outright.
ONLY THEN do you sneak up to the chicken coup, snatch a chicken, and dash away (preferably at night). Sure, they may make a lot of noise and alert the farmer, but by then you're back in the corn field, using stealth, and the farmer has no hope of catching you. Oh, and you did remember to wring the chicken's neck didn't you?
|
|
Add to the pile of problems that the rules on stealth are such a mess and that you can't steal a chicken in a highly contrived scenario specifically set up to cause the rogue to fail.Fixed that for you.
Though it's true the Stealth rules could be better (they don't function well with the team dynamic most of the time), I often observe that it's not the skill that's messed up, it's the GMs who are messing it up by not designing encounters that allow the rogue some opportunities to (realistically) use his abilities. I've also seen a lot of players play rogues foolishly, which doesn't help either.
Scenarios like A Man In Black's chicken stealing test are easy to circumvent.
You don't come from the bushes at the front of the farm house where the farmer can see you. That's dumb.
You sneak around back and come at the chicken house from the corn field.
You don't run up to the chicken house with a guard dog. He will smell you, likely bite you, and alert the farmer. That's dumb.
You stay downwind and snipe the dog from the cornfield with your crossbow, dealing sneak attack damage and killing it outright.
ONLY THEN do you sneak up to the chicken coup, snatch a chicken, and dash away (preferably at night). Sure, they may make a lot of noise and alert the farmer, but by then you're back in the corn field, using stealth, and the farmer has no hope of catching you. Oh, and you did remember to wring the chicken's neck didn't you?
Or you just rub yourself in alchemical reagents that remove your smell or just in something more local to mask it. That way you can potentially leave without said farmer even noticing something's amiss.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Or you just play a ninja and poison the farmer, the dog and all of the chickens by putting some sleep poison into their waterwell. Then you go there, have fun with an unconscious farmer, shave the dog, have a nap in the farmhouse, do some other fun stuff, finally take all the eggs and chickes you want and can carry and and wander off. But not before leaving the mark of some god and some hints at proclaiming this as wraths of the gods who tell the farmer that next time he should better give all you want and need to you voluntarily and unasked, because that´s what good farmers do.
Actually you can do that as a rogue too with blackginfer paste or what its called.
Though it's true the Stealth rules could be better (they don't function well with the team dynamic most of the time)
Neat trick: Use the Advanced Player's Guide, you know that trait system in the back? Give them Armor Expert and Highlander, for armored characters. Works wonders on normally clanking Paladins, Clerics, Fighters etc. There's even Cleric domains that grant Stealth, as well as Sorcerer bloodlines.
Worried about your lanterns giving you away? Well, you COULD invest in a fancy lantern that gives light only you can see (saw one once), or you could simply all take races that grant darkvision or low light vision.
Though it's true the Stealth rules could be better (they don't function well with the team dynamic most of the time)
Neat trick: Use the Advanced Player's Guide, you know that trait system in the back? Give them Armor Expert and Highlander, for armored characters. Works wonders on normally clanking Paladins, Clerics, Fighters etc. There's even Cleric domains that grant Stealth, as well as Sorcerer bloodlines.
Worried about your lanterns giving you away? Well, you COULD invest in a fancy lantern that gives light only you can see (saw one once), or you could simply all take races that grant darkvision or low light vision.
So basically, if every class builds their character around allowing the Rogue to sneak, it kinda works?
Well okay then.
|
|
To me the biggest issues with stealthing though is how counter effective it is made for PC's in most cases. It's annoying how a rogue performing a stealth kill on an unaware target is more likely to just injure the target and alert the enemy party rather then actually kill them stealthily which really takes away one of the key reasons people want to play rogues. The second issue is that since that rogue can't really sneak kill most encounter groups of comparable level if they get the proper drop on them all scouting expeditions either become exercises in rogue death or this incredibly long solo affair that leaves the other players not doing anything. Once that happens you basically remove one of the big events where a rogue should be able to shine since by the time he's done with his stealthy foray most of the party is no longer paying attention.
The big upgrade to rogues is in the first Bestiary, where they drastically reduced the number of creature types that are immune to sneak attack.
|
|
The big upgrade to rogues is in the first Bestiary, where they drastically reduced the number of creature types that are immune to sneak attack.
Yeah the problem though is you still can't pull off that one hit stealth kill with a rogue in most circumstances unless the encounter is incredibly tailored to that which either makes stealthy assassin rogues ineffective (since they are basically blowing their stealth just to wound the guard) or drag out for a long time and leave the rest of the players with nothing to do. There's a reason most rogues sneak attack from flanking since it's just not viable almost any other way.
The problem is, they somehow forgot or oversaw to give the rogue some more balls to actually flank. I think medium armor would already help a lot. Some more weapon proficiencies.
Here is a question. If a Rogue were allowed to just run into battle and use his Sneak Attack on every attack, would it be unbalanced? Or would it just bring him up to par with the rest of the classes?
|
How about putting all those skill bonii to work thusly....a sort of scaled bonus to attack and damage based off a Knowledge:Whatever check and a Heal check...allowing for a more intimate knowledge on the proper ways to hit, and then eliminating the requirement for flanking?
Maybe incorporating a sort of time mechanic too...the longer you observe your enemy/opponent before attacking, the more likely you are to know its weaknesses...
afterall, Bilbo only learned about the hole in Smaugs armor after observing the great beast for quite some time.
What if rogues had Couple more abilities like:
Called shot: the rogue selects this ability before an attack is made. She must roll two attack rolls, in both meet or exceed the AC of the target she deals normal damage as well as sneak attack damage. On failure the attack fails and deals no damage.
precise criticals: on a critical confirmation the rogue deals sneak attack damage. At sixth level she may deal sneak attack damage on a critical threat, even if it didn't confirm.
Rogue talent, takedown: if a target is unaware of you, make an attack, this attack deals sneak attack damage and silences the target for one round. if the attack lands make an immediate grapple check at a +4 bonus, also roll a stealth check against any potential threats too see of they notice. To grapple you must have one free hand. the target is also flat footed to you until the end of your next turn. You must be at least 4th or 6th level to take this rogue talent
This is quite complex for one attack, but itis A mini encounter in itself. Also the called shot rewards high risk high reward game play
|
another option:
Making Class Skills Matter:
Whenever a character gains a level in a class, they may only invest skill points in cross-class skills if the total ranks in that skill would not exceed half their character level.
1) single-classed characters would only be able to invest 10 ranks by level 20 in a cross-class
2) multi-classed characters would be able to freely invest in skills that were class skills in all their classes, and only in skills that were class skills for some of their classes when they met the above conditions at each leveling. notably, order matters here.
(example 1: if your first 6 levels are in rogue, you could gain 6 ranks in all the sneaky skills, then if you followed that with classes that did not have sneaky class skills, you would have to wait to invest in those skills again until you either had a character level of 14 or until you took another level in a class with sneaky skills.
example 2: if your first 17 levels are in rogue, and your last three are in fighter, you could have up to 17 ranks in all the sneaky skills by character level 20)
conclusion: Rogue would again be king of skills! Traits would be more important!
What if we allowed the Rogue to make an Acrobatics check against her opponent's CMD to gain the sneak attack in normal combat. Make it usable as a swift action with no drawbacks for failure. (Can still make a normal attack, etc.)
Well, a Feint already does that I believe (Bluff check) the issue is that it's a standard action.
|
|
there could be three paradigms of Feinting:
the (standard)-(move)-(swift) paradigm
the (until next attack)-(for 1 full round) paradigm
the (relative to rogue)-(relative to allies) paradigm
what would be the appropriate feat/talent/dice requirement/investment for the Rogue to be able to Feint as a Swift action and DX-deny for 1 full round (read: multiple attacks) relative to all of her allies?
|
In the few campaigns I've played with a particular GM and my friend who always plays a rogue, they would be spotted instantly by the first enemy standing guard, every single time, nearly die as we rush up to save them. It got to the point where they simply didn't want to play anymore.
Other games I've been in and GMed, rogues going off on their own could gain valuable information of a situation, disarm some traps or unlock doors prior to the rest of the party being there. This makes me agree that it is player/GM dependent on how effective rogues can be in solo situations.
It also irks me that a rogue cannot simply take an opponent unawares and instantly kill them without some extremely high level ability, but I can see how it would be game breaking, as the rogue could kill everyone out of combat if their stealth were maxed out.
You can deal a considerable amount of non-lethal damage to knock an opponent out, but it is feat heavy.
In combat, you can two weapon feint, have improved feint and boost your bluff skill, but again, also feat heavy.
Using something like a garrote might be an option, as it would silence but also give the victim a chance to escape.
I've also toyed around with the idea that dirty trick can be used to blind your opponent, and a blind opponent is flat footed. This assumes your opponent has eyes.
I would agree that a ranged rogue is very difficult to make viable, sniping sucks.
I've also come up with alchemical items and simple traps (and the combination of the two, traps that release alchemical items) that would make rogues a lot more fun to play as someone who infiltrates, traps everything ala spy vs spy, then runs home to the party snickering along the way.
But yeah, even multiclassing with rogue on numerous occasions has left me wanting a change for the class. I think the only fun I had with a rogue was shadowdancer, because HIPS and shadowstep is just that awesome.
Sorry my thoughts are so disjointed, touching a bit on a number of posts here.
Though it's true the Stealth rules could be better (they don't function well with the team dynamic most of the time)
Neat trick: Use the Advanced Player's Guide, you know that trait system in the back? Give them Armor Expert and Highlander, for armored characters. Works wonders on normally clanking Paladins, Clerics, Fighters etc. There's even Cleric domains that grant Stealth, as well as Sorcerer bloodlines.
Worried about your lanterns giving you away? Well, you COULD invest in a fancy lantern that gives light only you can see (saw one once), or you could simply all take races that grant darkvision or low light vision.
So basically, if every class builds their character around allowing the Rogue to sneak, it kinda works?
Well okay then.
No, it just allows them to Stealth with the Rogue at least somewhat. If you have bright players, they are willing to let the Rogue go scouting up ahead. However, most are not so tactically enlightened, and so try to tag along, foolishly.
I always thought the feint feat was as a move action (you can still stab)
Then you get greater, and now it lasts a round... I think though it should lasts until the end of your next round so you can actually do a full round attack doing stabby stabby.
Improved Feint does do that, but just like most other Improved Combat Maneuver Feats, it's silly that you need to take it for it to be even vaguely usable.
And no, it doesn't last a full round. As the text for the Feint says: "If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn."
Well if you think about it, what is a feint? Its pretending to do one action when in reality you are doing the other. The problem with that is, do you really take a standard action (what i believe to be 3 seconds ish) Just to PRETEND to swing an uppercut? No, you take a split second then you go for the legs. Logically speaking a Feint ISN'T a feint unless you follow it up with another action, IE moving away or following up with an attack. So a feint SHOULD be a swift action.
Beyond that feinting shouldn't be bluff, i don't care how charismatic you are, Dexterity is going to tell you how you can control your body in a way that will trick a seasoned fighter. So a Dex check + BAB would make more sense, as opposed to Wisdom + BAB + 10 or even Dex + BAB + 10.
also "Acrobatics for sneak attacks" is kind of addressed in "Rogue Glory" They have a feat (or rogue tallent?) That allows you to get 1 sneak attack off if you successfully avoid an AOO while traveling through a threatened square using acrobatics
They also have some wording to an ambush grapple, You make a grapple check, if it succeeds make a second grapple check, if both succeed then the enemy is grappled and can't make a sound, you can then restealth at a -20.
i personally think that in a suprise round a rogue should be able to coup de grace, but they must make an attack roll. if the attack roll fails they are then flat footed until their next turn.
1) Allow ACP mitigation. Only armor with chain or scale components is unavoidably loud. Articulated plate might squeak, but can be greased. Any armor can be blacked so it's not shiny. This can be done with charcoal or with the prestidigitation cantrip. I'd allow preparation to obviate the vast majority of the ACP for stealth. Possibly the whole thing for some armors.
4) Discourage cavaliers and samurai. Horses and stealth go together like, well, horses and putting humpty dumpty together again.
Probably the rogue should be fixed in other ways as well. Making him full BAB while remaining at a d8 hit die is a quick fix that should fix most of his combat issues.
One, horses do not belong in the dungeon. Heck, they don't even belong in caverns or forests of any kind. Why? No room for a Large beastie to maneuver. They are plains and steppe creatures, remember.
Two, ACP mitigation can easily be had through the use of the Shadow enchantments, mithral armor, the Highlander and Armor Expert traits I noted earlier (reduce Stealth penalty by 5 right there), and Dex boosts via magic. I also found that Wisdom in the Flesh trait can be used for divine spellcasters well, and completely negates ACP for Stealth.
Seriously people, it isn't hard to make a party that can sneak. And, why can't a Rogue use sneak attack to coup de grace an unaware target?
If the entire party can sneak well enough that their presence while sneaking doesn't make the group any more likely to be spotted, what exactly is the rogue bringing to the table in terms of stealth? The least stealthy member of the party is the limiting factor if everyone's sneaking together.
For the rogue to be relevant while everyone is sneaking together, you need a way for one party member's great stealth score to compensate for the other party members' middling stealth scores. But Pathfinder's design philosophy says that falls under the purview of wizards.
And, why can't a Rogue use sneak attack to coup de grace an unaware target?
Because flat-footed and helpless are not the same thing.
If the entire party can sneak, what exactly is the rogue bringing to the table in terms of stealth?
And, why can't a Rogue use sneak attack to coup de grace an unaware target?Because flat-footed and helpless are not the same thing.
One: A Rogue can sneak far better than the rest of the party. Thus, scouting is possible. If the other characters can sneak, but aren't as good at it as the Rogue, then they at least have a ballpark chance to get the group into a good tactical position once the Rogue returns from scouting.
Two: Why the heck not? Yeah, it's a technical point in the game, but really, there isn't much difference. Either way, unless something special happened with some funky power, if you are flat footed you have no action you can take. If the target is obviously humanoid, that Rogue should be able to coup de grace it easily.
In real life, upon which this game is based, it's not out of plausibility to kill someone in a single shot with a melee weapon, if properly placed. Hell, I could do it with a sharpened pencil.
3,750 gp for an ability that should cost 0gp and a little prep time. Some of us want the rogue to be able to have support at low levels before he starts sucking on his own merits.
I repeat, Highlander and Armor Expert negates most of the Stealth problems inherent in wearing armor and sneaking. 1 skill point, 2 traits, no gold spent, 5 point reduction in penalty before Dex is factored in.
Or give Wisdom in the Flesh on Stealth for the Druid or Cleric. No ACP penalty whatsoever for Stealth.
In real life, upon which this game is basedNo it's not. It's based on epic fantasy, in which nothing is ever allowed to kill the protagonist from behind in a single shot with anything.
That's dependent upon the specific author. Usually foreshadowing is involved.
This thread has made me come to the conclusion that I must rewrite the rogue, purely for my own satisfaction.
Maybe I'll take that on as my next project, after I finish Freeform Class Selection to my satisfaction and inevitably drop the Liberator/Redeemer class because I don't feel like it any more.
"My fighter is useless! He keeps failing Use Magic Device rolls."
"My wizard can't hit a darn thing with his sword! How can we fix that?"
I think I made my point--if you think the rogue needs to be fixed, you are doing it wrong.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
"My fighter is useless! He keeps failing Use Magic Device rolls."
"My wizard can't hit a darn thing with his sword! How can we fix that?"
I think I made my point--if you think the rogue needs to be fixed, you are doing it wrong.
Indeed, we should stop trying to shore up the rogue's weaknesses and focus on the rogue's positive qualities, which are as follows:
> Almost as many skill points as bards and wizards
> Doesn't have a d6 hit die?
> I'm drawing a blank here
"My fighter is useless! He keeps failing Use Magic Device rolls."
"My wizard can't hit a darn thing with his sword! How can we fix that?"
I think I made my point--if you think the rogue needs to be fixed, you are doing it wrong.
So, please name all these wonderful things a Rogue can do that another class can't.
Because I'm drawing a blank here.