| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Is there any reason why I couldn't use Flurry of Blows WITHOUT the extra attacks? This might be important when hitting at all is more important than getting extra attacks.
Someone who is fighting with two weapons normally can still choose to avoid the penalties to hit by not gaining the extra attacks, so I think a monk should be able to do the same (since the ability is based off of two-weapon fighting). I'm just looking to confirm that they can.
In short, I want to be able to use Flurry of Blows for the higher attack bonus (since I am treated as having full base attack bonus), but I also want to avoid the -2 penalty to hit that comes with the bonus attacks.
Design Manager
|
You have to declare that you're making a Flurry at the time you make the attack, applying all appropriate bonuses and penalties... You could probably choose to end it and move after the first hit since it is specifically a full attack action and that's one of the options you would normally have, but I don't think you can get around that -2. The same way a Two-Weapon Fighter would still take the -2 to his initial attack if he declared a full attack using Two Weapon Fighting and then dropped the enemy after the first hit.
I don't think it works that way. I think it's an all or nothing thing (so no picking and choosing which part to use).
But, if you can do that, I would love to know, as that would be quite useful.
My gut response would be to say that a single attack, by definition is not a "flurry", and therefore would use the monk's normal BAB. Even taking the -2 into account, FoB breaks even with a monk's normal attack at 5th level... anything beyond that, and they're better off doing a FoB whenever possible.
From a strict rules standpoint, I'd say that you're getting a little greedy, looking for both the full BAB AND the lack of -2 penalty. The Monk chart clearly lays out what the FoB bonus is supposed to be, for a character of a given level (obviously, adjusted by magical bonuses, STR bonues, etc). Also consider that, unless that -2 is going to mean the difference between hitting on a natural 20, and hitting on an 18-20, you're likely better off throwing the extra dice, and hoping one of them hits.
That having been said, were this posted in the Houserules, as opposed to the Rules Forum, I'd probably opine that, if ANY character wanted to take a Full-Round action to make a single attack, I'd probably allow a house-rule of an "aiming" bonus - offering full BAB to any character who wanted to stand their ground aiming seems like some good flavor.
If your GM allows it, there's no reason you can't break the rules. However this would still be breaking the RAW.
Besides starting at 9th level your flurry BAB is higher than your normal BAB anyway (though still at the -2).
So where's the evidence that this can't be done? You all seem to be in agreement, but I'm seeing anything specific to support it.
I think the RAW is probably no but I'd likely let it fly.
- Torger
A better question: Where is the evidence that it can be done?
That's a cop out response if I've ever seen one.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
|
Design Manager
|
A better question: Where is the evidence that it can be done?That's a cop out response if I've ever seen one.
Rules are generally permissive, not restrictive. There's nothing saying I can't fart Lightning Bolts in the rules either.
I think the rules for Flurry would fall under the same rules as any other Full Attack like Kazaan and I discussed earlier in the thread.
Flurry of Blows is a specific Full Round action.
You take no penalty from making all of your attacks, and you can only do it when you can GET all of your attacks. There is no reason to use it in such a manner, and as such no way you would be able to.
|
Design Manager
|
Flurry of Blows is a specific Full Round action.
You take no penalty from making all of your attacks, and you can only do it when you can GET all of your attacks. There is no reason to use it in such a manner, and as such no way you would be able to.
To corrrect this, Flurry is a special Full Attack action. Small difference, but possibly relevant.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So where's the evidence that this can't be done?
Flurry of Blows (Ex): "Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat)."
Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat) - "Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting in Combat."
Combat, Two-Weapon Fighting: "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way."
The penalties only apply when 'fighting that way', which is using the two-weapon fighting option to get an extra attack. That is the only time the Two-Weapon Fighting feat applies. Which means, when using a Flurry of Blows, you are attacking as if using the feat, which means as if using the two-weapon fighting option to get an extra attack.
TWF FAQ: "In other words, once you decide you're using two-weapon fighting to get that extra attack on your turn (which you have to decide before you take any attacks on your turn), that decision locks you in to the format of "my primary weapon gets my main attack and my iterative attack, and my off hand weapon only gets the extra attack, and I apply two-weapon fighting penalties.""
If you begin a full-attack, using TWF, then decide for whatever reason to not make any attack(s) with your off-hand, you still take the penalties, because you decided to fight that way when you began the action.
So if you begin a flurry, then decide for whatever reason to not make any extra attacks, you still take the penalties, because you decided to fight that way when you began the action.
|
Lets look at Flurry:
So, first off, a Flurry is a full round action. So no matter how many times you attack with it, you are taking a full round action, this makes it different then standard two-weapon fighting.
You "may" make additional attacks; so you can choose to not take all the attacks.
My best guess is that if you take the full round action to do a flurry and only choose to strike once, you still apply the full penalties as if you choose to attack more than once.
I would say no because it's essentially just a dodge around the rules that a monk, not using flurry, uses the standard monk BAB rather than a BAB equal to his level. There are times when a GM has to override or step away from the rules, but doing so just to cheese out the best modifier is probably not one of them.
So, first off, a Flurry is a full round action.
It's a full-attack action. Which is, itself, a type of full round action. However:
So no matter how many times you attack with it, you are taking a full round action, this makes it different then standard two-weapon fighting.
Are you under the impression you can use two-weapon fighting without a full-attack? (Barring very rare special abilities)
If you begin a full-attack, using TWF, then decide for whatever reason to not make any attack(s) with your off-hand, you still take the penalties, because you decided to fight that way when you began the action.
So if you begin a flurry, then decide for whatever reason to not make any extra attacks, you still take the penalties, because you decided to fight that way when you began the action.
Indeed. This is also similar to rapid shot. Circumstances may dictate that you only get the first attack. Perhaps you drop the final opponent. Maybe you suffer some kind of effect that negates further attacks. It doesn't matter what happens, you've still committed to the possibility of getting that extra attack whether it's from flurry, two-weapon fighting, or rapid shot and suffer the appropriate penalty on the appropriate attack.
It's true this sort of feature sits in an awkward spot in the rules. Using standard iterative attacks, you can see how the first attack goes before deciding to use subsequent ones or moving. But with special features that give bonus attacks, some of that freedom to "see what happens" is gone because even the first attack comes at a penalty to enable subsequent ones. In the case of flurry, the penalty enables both the extra attacks and the use of the higher BAB.
|
Design Manager
|
Lets look at Flurry:** spoiler omitted **
So, first off, a Flurry is a full round action. So no matter how many times you attack with it, you are taking a full round action, this makes it different then standard two-weapon fighting.
You "may" make additional attacks; so you can choose to not take all the attacks.
My best guess is that if you take the full round action to do a flurry and only choose to strike once, you still apply the full penalties as if you choose to attack more than once.
As has been noted a couple times, Flurry is a full attack action, which is a type of full round action.
Under the rules for Full attack you have this little tidbit "Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round."Similarly, with the FAQs in place for TWF, you can start TWF, but then stop after your first attack, although you'll have to eat the TWF penalty. There isn't really any reason Flurry couldn't function exactly the same way.
|
|
So, first off, a Flurry is a full round action.It's a full-attack action. Which is, itself, a type of full round action. However:
So no matter how many times you attack with it, you are taking a full round action, this makes it different then standard two-weapon fighting.Are you under the impression you can use two-weapon fighting without a full-attack? (Barring very rare special abilities)
I was under the impression that you could declare two weapon fighting, and under the full-attack rules, change your full-attack to a standard attack after the first swing (but still have to deal with all the penalties since you declared it).
From:
Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round. If you've already taken a 5-foot step, you can't use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.
Hmm, according to that, you should be able to do the same with Flurry (misread "full-attack" as "full-round" blame work), but either way, you are taking the two-weapon fighting penalties.
|
Design Manager
|
***
Hmm, according to that, you should be able to do the same with Flurry (misread "full-attack" as "full-round" blame work), but either way, you are taking the two-weapon fighting penalties.
That's pretty much where the rest of us are at as well, I believe. At least that's where I'm at.
you can start TWF, but then stop after your first attack, although you'll have to eat the TWF penalty. There isn't really any reason Flurry couldn't function exactly the same way.
It certainly should. But that's not what OP is asking. He wants full monklevel=BAB, and no penalties.
Thank you for the quotations everyone.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
That...that doesn't really make sense in this context. If I could prove it worked, I wouldn't have bothered making this thread in the first place.
I believe all penalties have to applied before you make that first attack.
I see it the same as if you killed the enemy with your first attack... it doesn't mean you magically didn't have the penalty in the first place...
Raw no.
However, if I was asked, I'd probably do the following :
6th level Monk : Hey, I know I'm supposed to have +4/+4/-1 flurry attack, but I'd honestly rather forego the second +4 and have a +6/+1 flurry instead, as if I'd just don an itterative attack with full BAB. Basically, I don't want to de-stabilize myself by rushing through my katta to get that extra attack in.
GM : Hmm, ok, I'll allow it, as long as you meet all other requirements for flurry, weapon, armor restrictions, etc.
There's nothing in the RAW to allow it, but I'd be ok with it.
|
Design Manager
|
Raw no.
However, if I was asked, I'd probably do the following :
6th level Monk : Hey, I know I'm supposed to have +4/+4/-1 flurry attack, but I'd honestly rather forego the second +4 and have a +6/+1 flurry instead, as if I'd just don an itterative attack with full BAB. Basically, I don't want to de-stabilize myself by rushing through my katta to get that extra attack in.
GM : Hmm, ok, I'll allow it, as long as you meet all other requirements for flurry, weapon, armor restrictions, etc.
There's nothing in the RAW to allow it, but I'd be ok with it.
RAW you can get away with making a single attack using your Flurry at a bonus of level -2 and then move, but you couldn't, say, flurry for the number of attacks a character with full BAB would make using your flurry without taking the -2 penalty.
Maybe monks are just better when they don't slow down and think about what they're doing but just let instinct kinda take over...
Please note I said 'Raw no'? Then went on to explain what I'd probably allow as a house rule.
No reason to discuss that angle as the Monk BAB is already listed on his page. You fight with the Monk BAB unless you are using the Monk Flurry attack which typically significantly better than his base BAB. As a DM I'm not giving you a bonus to hit because you promised to hold one hand behind your back while attacking in your special Monk Flurry style.
Over the course of my life, I've had 2 years of kung fu, one year of karate, and 1 year of aikido training. Granted, that's only about 10% of my life, but I think it at least gives me some knowledge of how martial arts work for reals. :)
Every time I've had training, we had two levels of training routines. There is the training level, which is slower but more accurate, to teach us the basics. Then there is the skirmish where you actually count hits.
In the training level, you're more deliberate, to teach yourself muscle memory, but you are also slower, you throw less punches, less kicks, and you don't do as many throws (which by the way the system doesn't handle very well except as a maneuver, having been thrown, flipped and slammed into the floor I can absolutely say those should be doing HP damage!). But in the actual fight, you move a lot faster, relying on that muscle memory. However, I have thrown people off before by dropping back into a training mentality, slowing down my movements enough to draw them into an opening and then go in hard. I lost the match, because they threw more hits and got more points. But the instructor pointed out to everyone that while I had lost a match, I would have probably beaten the other guy in a street fight, because while I only got 2 hits to his 4, he had to stop after each of my hits for a minute before we could go on. All his were solid but to muscles and bone, no good solid solar plexus hits. :)
Of course, the downside of training only a bit in each was that I would do things to other students out of habit. I accidently did a kung-fu throw on a fellow aikido student in training drills, almost sprained his wrist because he wasn't expecting it. We weren't supposed to cover that particular type of throw move for another 3 weeks.
@Jeff Clem: You might wanna recheck your Math. It is at -2 but you use your Monk Level as your B.A.B.
Yeah it is Monk Level = B.A.B. then you take the TWF Penalties.
Yeah your just proving what I say. You are treated as if having Full B.A.B. and take TWF Penalties.
After reading your posts and re-reading the entirety of the monk's Flurry of Blows class ability, I'm still failing to see anything preventing this from being allowed via the RAW.
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
It seems clear to me that FoB is always a full attack action. I specifically says as much. It also specifically states that a flurry of blows always uses full base attack bonus progression (at least for your monk levels). What's more, it also clearly states that you MAY make additional attacks...as if using Two-Weapon Fighting.
That sounds strictly optional to me. I really don't see what else it could mean.
The Two-Weapon Fighting rules and multiple developer clarifications make it pretty clear that if you don't take the additional BONUS attacks while two-weapon fighting, then you don't suffer the attack penalty.
In short, at this time, I honestly believe you are all wrong.
After reading your posts and re-reading the entirety of the monk's Flurry of Blows class ability, I'm still failing to see anything preventing this from being allowed via the RAW.
** spoiler omitted **
It seems clear to me that FoB is always a full attack action. I specifically says as much. It also specifically states that a flurry of blows always uses full base attack bonus progression (at least for...
The hole I see there is this: After saying you may make additional attacks as if using Two-Weapon fighting, it say "for the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level". The bolded "these" seems to refer to the attacks being made using Two-Weapon fighting, so it is only the attacks in which he is making use of Two-Weapon fighting that benefit from the increased base attack bonus.
Now, I would allow a monk to start to flurry, and after his first attack decide to back off and take a move action instead. But he would be making that attack with the Two-Weapon fighting penalty.
The hole I see there is this: After saying you may make additional attacks as if using Two-Weapon fighting, it say "for the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level". The bolded "these" seems to refer to the attacks being made using Two-Weapon fighting, so it is only the attacks in which he is making use of Two-Weapon fighting that benefit from the increased base attack bonus.
Now, I would allow a monk to start to flurry, and after his first attack decide to back off and take a move action instead. But he would be making that attack with the Two-Weapon fighting penalty.
If that were the case then ONLY the bonus attacks would be treated as having full base attack bonus. That clearly isn't the case.
If that were the case then ONLY the bonus attacks would be treated as having full base attack bonus. That clearly isn't the case.The hole I see there is this: After saying you may make additional attacks as if using Two-Weapon fighting, it say "for the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level". The bolded "these" seems to refer to the attacks being made using Two-Weapon fighting, so it is only the attacks in which he is making use of Two-Weapon fighting that benefit from the increased base attack bonus.
Now, I would allow a monk to start to flurry, and after his first attack decide to back off and take a move action instead. But he would be making that attack with the Two-Weapon fighting penalty.
Why is that clearly not the case? Please provide RAW justification.
It's no more twisted than your initial premise.
Soo.. this amounts to...
I want to start an action that requires a full-round action, gain the bonus that goes with it, then "cancel" it before the accomopanying penalty would take effect.. and keep the bonus and any beneficial outcome from the resolved part of the action.. based on taking out-of-context the wording of a clarification to a similar ability.
And there is still a question that the answer isn't "no" ?