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I'm just curious how many GMs here allow multiple rolls for abilities. Meaning, if you're using either the Standard (3d6) or Heroic(4d6-lowest roll) rolling methods, do you allow re-rolls for stat sets? If so, how many? Is the number predetermined?
This is an issue for me because I am starting a new game with the Reign of Winter AP. I have 4 players, 2 agree with point buy and the other 2 abhor it. They instead want to roll, which is fine, but I know it will be very unlikely that they will be satisfied with the results of only one set of stats and they will quickly ask to re-roll.
I realize that I should just dictate what our generation method is, but if I do, it will be a lasting sore spot throughout the campaign for these two. If I let them roll once and they aren't happy with the results, the same thing happens. Yes, I have min-maxing power-gamers. I am trying to accommodate everyone's gaming wishes, but I have to keep a handle on these guys or the game get's out of control quickly.
Should I just dictate point buy, allow them to roll once, or let them roll until they're happy with their stats? I feel like if I cave, I'm setting a bad precedent, but if I don't compromise, I'll have 2 disgruntled players...
our group started rolling, 7x4d6 drop low, reroll 1.
Perhaps give them an option. either roll with 1 reroll, point buy, or array.
Personally I have been struggling with this in my group/ campaigns, which is a better system? I don't like point buy cuz then everyone has essentially the same stat numbers, just divided differently. Id say go with heroic, 4d6 - lowest, roll 7 dice and drop the lowest set (the result is the 3 highest dice of 4 from the 6 highest sets of 7). Make sure that there is a total modifier of +4(which usually happens) otherwise throw out the whole set. Allow this twice and take the better results. I know this system is kinda goofy and ends up having stat rolls that are similar to eachother, but its still randomized and not point buy and ends up with the occasional low number. If they don't like the results after twice say too bad, I would also allow the point buy members this method to be fair.
oh yea, we strove for a balance across party.
The favorite at my table. Roll 6d20. Reroll any number lower than a 10. Assign as you wish. Those are your stats before racial adjustments.
We are pretty much point buy these days. I still prefer rolling and I think rolling 4d6 drop 1 six times and arrange as desired is my most comfortable way to do it.
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How much would the point buy be? You could allow the two who want to point buy to point buy and allow the ones who wish to roll to roll, although I wouldn't allow re-rolls.
Point buy:
10-point buy = 11.67 average
15-point buy = 12.5 average
20-point buy = 13.17 average
25-point buy = 13.5 average
Rolling:
Classic (3d6) = 10.5 average
Standard (4d6-lowest) = 12.24 average
Heroic (2d6+6) = 13 average
If you're doing a 10-point buy, the players who roll could do a set of 4d4+2 (avg. 12.0) and drop 1 from his character's two highest ability scores (effective average = 11.67)
If you're doing a 15-point buy, the players who roll could do a set of 4d6-lowest and add 1 to his character's lowest ability score (effective average = 12.41)
If you're doing a 20-point buy, the players who roll could do a set of 2d6+6 and add 1 to his character's lowest ability score (effective average = 13.17)
If you're doing a 25-point buy, the players who roll could do a set of 3d4+6 (avg. 13.5).
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How much would the point buy be? You could allow the two who want to point buy to point buy and allow the ones who wish to roll to roll, although I wouldn't allow re-rolls.
Point buy:
10-point buy = 11.67 average
15-point buy = 12.5 average
20-point buy = 13.17 average
25-point buy = 13.5 averageRolling:
Classic (3d6) = 10.5 average
Standard (4d6-lowest) = 12.24 average
Heroic (2d6+6) = 13 averageIf you're doing a 10-point buy, the players who roll could do a set of 4d4+2 (avg. 12.0) and drop 1 from his character's two highest ability scores (effective average = 11.67)
If you're doing a 15-point buy, the players who roll could do a set of 4d6-lowest and add 1 to his character's lowest ability score (effective average = 12.41)
If you're doing a 20-point buy, the players who roll could do a set of 2d6+6 and add 1 to his character's lowest ability score (effective average = 13.17)
If you're doing a 25-point buy, the players who roll could do a set of 3d4+6 (avg. 13.5).
This is a great breakdown, thanks!
We would use a 25 point buy.
I do 4d6 drop the lowest, NOT in order (they can allocate the numbers to any stat they wish).
They can re-roll if they end up with 2 stats under 10, no stats over 12 (both before racial bonuses/penalties), or if their stats end up significantly lower than the average of the other players.
Works pretty well so far. Everyone ends up with good stats (which I never see as a problem), everyone's been happy with what they've got, and it's faster than teaching everyone point buy.
Has the possibility to end up with a higher than average power level by a bit but I've never seen that as an issue since encounters can always be tweaked up a smidge.
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I would say you should do what our group did and allow players to choose for themselves whether they want to roll or point buy. We did 4d6 drop lowest (no rerolls) or 15 point buy (which results in pretty much equal scores).
I've considered this, except with 25 points, and believe this is likely the route I will take if I can't get them to all agree on something.
(and starting gold)?
Please Sweet Baby Jesus, let's leave starting money alone! ;)
Give the guys who want to point buy a point buy, lets the guys who roll roll once (let's say 6x 4d6 drop lowest). After that, if the rollers are below the points level of the point buy, they can point-buy back up to as even as possible with the point buyers (no further lowering of stats though, only buying back up). Conversely, if they roll higher than the point buy, the point-buyers can buy additional until they're close to the rolled stats.
The method I've been using for a while has been this:
Roll six sets of 4d6, reroll 1s, drop lowest. Once this is complete, you may perform this series again, for another set of six. Pick which of the two sets of six numbers to use. You may not mix-and-match. If the sum of the six numbers is less than a certain value (I don't remember what it is, maybe 72), then you may discard that set of numbers and roll a new set.
This produces pretty high-stat characters, but my players enjoy it. For lower-power play, I use this:
Rolls six sets of 4d6, reroll 1s, drop lowest. Once this is complete, you may choose one number and reroll it (using 4d6, reroll 1s, drop lowest). Take the higher of the two rolls.
I use either 28 or (preferably) 33 point buy, with no stat below 10. Two reasons. First, the 33 pt buy is the same as a 25 pt buy with two stats at 7, so those characters who could have dumped two stats to 7 (like, say, wizard) get the same points, but those classes who need a variety of stats aren't penalized for having non-dumpable stats. Second, if 5 players plus the GM roll 4d6 and take the best array rolled, the average for the best rolled array is 33 points (well, 32 and change, so rounded up).
Make everyone unhappy, you should be able to find some other method that combines randomness with a "point buy" effect.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2na5r?PCs-using-different-ability-score-generat ion#30
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nj6v?How-do-you-roll-stats-for-new-characters# 8
Give them an array. Or if you are feeling nice, give them a couple of arrays. Something like; (these are for 22/21 pb)
1) 17,16,12,10,10,7
2) 16,15,14,11,10,9
3) 14,14,14,14,12,10
I recall this method from somewhere. Everyone assigns there own stats and then calculates the Point Buy value. If your PB value is over a certain number, you get Hubris points. Anytime the DM needs to make a random decision, like which character will this random event/monster/attack etc... effect/hit, he picks the person with the highest Hubris score, and then subtracts 1 from that Hubris score. I wish I could remember where I saw this...memory is always the 2nd thing to go with age, I just wish I could remember the first.
Another is to use 18 cards divided into 6 stats.
1- randomly divide 18 cards (1-6) 3 per stat, in order
2- add up each stat
3- add 1 to a stat and 6 (max 18)to another stat
3.5(optional) switch any 2 stats
4- adjust for race
The 1 is to make an odd stat even.
The 6 can make a moderate stat good (or a poor stat moderate), if you really want to play a specific class/concept. This gets you the random/organic-ness of rolling, but keeps the fairness(all characters are around the same power) of point buy (without the cookie cutter sameness).
Other methods;
- start with a stat array and randomly assign them to stats
- roll 3 stats and then use some formula to determine the other 3 (something like 21 - rolled stat = new stat)
- everyone rolls an array, but then can choose anybody's array