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What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?
As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 02/22/13
So the recent FAQ cited above has specified that it is possible to bypass the "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus" rule when enchanting items taking a +5 to the DC of the enchanting check.
Now I have a question about that.
How the +5 to the DC is applied?
It is a flat +5 independently from how many caster level are missed?, i.e. a 3rd level crafter can make a +5 sword (that would require a level 15 crafter) taking a +5 to the DC?
It is a +5 for missed level?
I.e. a 3rd level crafter making a +2 weapon would have a +15 to the DC while a 5th level crafter would have a +5 to the DC?
It is a +5 missed crafting tier?
i.e. if you want to make a +5 sword that require you to be level 15 (5*3) but you are only able to make +4 swords (level 12-14) you get a +5 to the DC, but if you are only able to make +3 swords )level 9-11) you get a +10 to the DC and so on.
Any idea?
It's one requirement, so you add +5, regardless of how many levels low you are.
So, your first example is correct.
==Aelryinth
There is no indication in the rules that I know of that it is anything other than one flat +5.
The base DC puts the additional burden on the low-level crafter (+15 sword means CL15, means DC 20 to start, vs. DC 11 for a +2 sword).
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I think you are right, but it seem a bit odd.
Especially as the caster level of items with that kind of limitations don't change with the +X value.
Example:
Cloak of Resistance
Aura faint abjuration; CL 5th
Slot shoulders; Price 1,000 gp (+1), 4,000 gp (+2), 9,000 gp (+3), 16,000 gp (+4), 25,000 gp (+5); Weight 1 lb.
Description
These garments offer magic protection in the form of a +1 to +5 resistance bonus on all saving throws (Fortitude, Reflex, and Will).
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, resistance, creator's caster level must be at least three times the cloak's bonus; Cost 500 gp (+1), 2,000 gp (+2), 4,500 gp (+3), 8,000 gp (+4), 12,500 gp (+5)
So a 3rd level caster can make a +2 or +5 cloak with the same ease.
(the creator caster level should be 3*X, but the item CL is 5 and can be as low as 1 as the spell used is Resistance)
That doesn't apply to wondrous items. That specific requirement is for weapons and armor.
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That doesn't apply to wondrous items. That specific requirement is for weapons and armor.
Read the cloak text:
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, resistance, creator's caster level must be at least three times the cloak's bonus; Cost 500 gp (+1), 2,000 gp (+2), 4,500 gp (+3), 8,000 gp (+4), 12,500 gp (+5)
The FAQ isn't limited to weapon enhancements, it applies to all math requirements.
Oh right. Good catch
There's already a rule stopping that, and that's the wealth by level rule. They aren't going to have 12.5k at 5th level.
Wouldn't the difficulty already rise? Making a +1 sword requires CL 3, making the base DC 5+3 for 8.
A +3 sword requires a CL 9, making the base DC 5+9 for 14, with an additional 5 if you aren't CL 9 yourself, for 19 total, not 13(8+5).
Is that not generally how the CL works on these?
Up until this clarification, we have used nested failures. e.g. CL 10 and requires CL 15 was +5 for CL 11, +5 for CL 12, +5 for CL 13 . . . My players are going to be so happy, and I am going to have to adjust treasure like mad to keep the WBL in check.
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Wouldn't the difficulty already rise? Making a +1 sword requires CL 3, making the base DC 5+3 for 8.
A +3 sword requires a CL 9, making the base DC 5+9 for 14, with an additional 5 if you aren't CL 9 yourself, for 19 total, not 13(8+5).
Is that not generally how the CL works on these?
For weapon and armor, yes, the text is:
"Caster Level for Weapons: .... For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus."
That limit don't exist for wondrous items. Even more troubling, some relatively little so the WBL isn't a real limit.
At level 8 a +4 cloak is less than 1/4 of your WBL if crafted.
An Amulet of Mighty fist +4 is 1/2 of your WBL.
Amulet of natural armor +4 is 1/2
Bracers of armor +4 1/4
Ring of deflection +3 little more than 1/3
With a wizard/sorcerer or other character that can avoid to be in meele and can cast defensive spells I would probably craft a cloak +3 at level 5 and increase it to +4 at level 6.
It would be half of my WBL but my St would be very good.
Depending on class the other party members would get one 1-2 level later.
The main problem will start at middle levels, 7+, when most of the treasure will become "Oh, the money we need to make X." regardless of what is the actual treasure.
I like the crafting rules, but miss the feeling of having found something unexpected and finding the way to use it is something that I miss from the 1st edition.
That limit don't exist for wondrous items.
Hmm. Seems like a disconnect more than anything else to me. To the best of my knowledge, CL is almost always determined to be the minimum level required to make the item, based on what spells are needed and other restrictions.
For items that scale, I think the CL would too. The perfect example being how Pearls of Power are clarified to have different minimum caster levels through the FAQ.
Aelryinth is correct. Also +5 to the base CL DC for ignoring the CL prerequisite. Also, I have no issues with this. The DC to create the item is already 5 + high CL + 5 + 5 for each additional requirement you ignore. Unless we're talking about +4 and +5 weapons the CL requirement for adding modest special abilities was already a bigger issue. For example, the CL to create a +3 weapon is 9 (3 x 3 = 9). The CL needed to add flaming to a weapon was CL 10, and that's only a +2 equivalent weapon (and you can make +2 equivalent one level after taking the feat without upping the DC).
Working as intended. Good stuff.
On the side subject of "item's caster level matching the required caster level", I agree - and houserule it accordingly.
Keep in mind that the caster level of a magic item can be lowered from the general caster level in most cases (armor & weapons being an exception) as long as the spell prerequisites can still be met at those levels. Most items don't see any noticeable change in price or performance for doing so.
However, lower caster levels is not ideal in most cases. In general it is better to have the highest caster levels on your items as possible. The reason is because magic items have a saving throw bonus of 2 + 1/2 caster level. So a belt of physical magnificence that is CL 12 has a +8 bonus on saving throws, while the same belt at CL 3 has only a +3. Furthermore, the strength of magic items in caster level also determines how hard it is to resist being suppressed via things like dispel magic. At higher levels many creatures have dispels as SLAs or as low-level spell slots and you definitely do not want people dispelling certain magic items at annoying times. For example, having your flying carpet turned into a rug of freefalling is a bad thing.
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Let me get silly for a moment. Using this "wiggle room" I can just add +5 to the check if I don't have the 25,000 gp required to make an item. Sure.
The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.
It would be a good idea to change that to Requirement as in the FAQ:
What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?
As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 02/22/13
As you pointed out the rule speak of prerequisites, but prerequisites are defined as the stuff that appear under construction:
Construction: With the exception of artifacts, most magic items can be built by a spellcaster with the appropriate feats and prerequisites. This section describes those prerequisites.
Requirements instead is a specific section of that, example from the cloak:
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, resistance, creator's caster level must be at least three times the cloak's bonus;
Cost 500 gp (+1), 2,000 gp (+2), 4,500 gp (+3), 8,000 gp (+4), 12,500 gp (+5)
With prerequisites and the piece of text about construction your interpretation could be taken as valid, with requirements it isn't.