My idea is the panther style tree to make use of my movement and eat up aoo to make way for my team while still getting extra attacks, then i plan on trip attacks to help me hit with fob and maybe use boar style for the extra damage there.
How is unarmed monk overshadowed, i read that all over but dont quite get how
you can ge the same benefit of flurry with 2 weapon fighting line of feats
Except it costs a bazillion feats and doesn't give you pseudo-Full BAB.
The AoMF change was great, but the unarmed monk is now completely overshadowed by the THF monk, which I find problematic.
I always thought the MAD issed was a bit overstated, particularly if they got some bonuses to hit unarmed.
But I'm not in Jihad mode anymore about needed changes.
I think the real issue is that 2-Handed overshadows TWF. Not only for monks, but for everyone. Dragon styles helps to close the gap, though.
IMO, the changes did help. Specially the reduced cost of AoMF, although the "count as Silver/Cold Iron" bit is pretty useful too, mostly because I rearely take +3 weapons before 11~12th level.
Unfortunatelly, I think Monks' most serious problems (such as MADness) are still major problems. And I don't think a small patch or two will do much to change that.
Wow thanks for the advice he wis is almost as good as dex for the monk and the freeing up of the feat is huge. I love the feel of the monk so far I'm only lvl 3 so i don't have as much experience as many people do, it does seem harder to plan than most other classes i've done in the past, but it also seems the good cmb, style feats, and archetypes allow for a personalized monk. I may not be able to deal as much damage but i can set up for easier attacks and aoo for the fighter when i trip and for a sneak att when I stunning fist. My main concern was/ is the need for str/con/dex/wis and if i want greater anything but grapple i need a 13 int as well. I like the feats but as you said going the dex rout and combat reflexes eats a feat and neck slot and the feat trees and combos take so many feats to begin with. But all in all im glad i didnt listen to all the hate i like my monk.
You are currently in the monk's 'sweet spot' where he doesn't under-perform by much. By the time you hit 6th or 7th level it starts to bite. By 10th you are an also-ran.
I'm of the opinion that balance and rolled stats are mutually exclusive unless you're rolling so many dice there's hardly any variation (eg 6d3) in which case the multiple high roles are unlikely to show up.
Nonetheless, it's how many people play the game, so it has to be taken into account.
The AoMF change was great, but the unarmed monk is now completely overshadowed by the THF monk, which I find problematic.
TWF is overshadowed by THF anyway. That it happens to the monk with his penalty on damage for THF just hurts.
How is unarmed monk overshadowed, i read that all over but dont quite get how
A monk can flurry with a two-handed monk weapon, like the Temple Sword. He only gets normal strength bonus to damage, but can Power Attack for -1/+3 still. Now the rising damage dice on the monks unarmed strike may look good, but the most important factors in dealing damage are bonus to hit, static damage bonus and threat range. The unarmed strike scores poorly in these areas, while the two-handed Temple Sword scores much better: half the price to enchant with a +10 cap instead of +5, double the threat range, greater damage bonus from Power Attack.
I always thought the MAD issed was a bit overstated, particularly if they got some bonuses to hit unarmed.
I would agree, but they don't, so it is an issue.
But I'm not in Jihad mode anymore about needed changes.
I'm not in 'Jihad Mode' myself. I just wanted some feedback on whether the changes went far enough in the opinions of others. Plus, it's handy for the devs to see how their changes are being received.
Personally I think the monk's unarmed strike should get an enhancement bonus from ki-strike, it wouldn't make the class unbalanced. With that you wouldn't need to reclassify the monk's attacks as slam attacks.
The soulknife gets more than just enhancement, he gets a stack of things. I'm thinking more like the bladebound magus.
Just a flat enhancement bonus to hit - say +1 at 4th level, another +1 per three levels to cap at +5. Then the AoMF becomes gravy, not the essential meat and drink of the class.
So what exactly is the thing that makes a monk less viable at higher levels? Would using wis instead of str help because it relieves the MAD, would the +1 to unarmed at 4th with the +1 every 3 after solve many problems, or is there more to it. I understand that combat maneuvers are less effective when you get to fighting bigger stuff.
As i said i like the feel of the monk, i want to keep him on par with my party.
They lag behind on enhancement bonus on weapons, which puts you behind on attack bonus and static damage bonus, and used to put you behind on bypassing DR (partially fixed now), MAD makes them have less potent primary attributes (usually), so less bonus to hit there as well. Even when they flurry they are behind the full BAB classes on attack bonus, so they get a lot of attacks but less hits, and less damage per hit, and it all adds up.
Maneuvers fall off in effectiveness as you have noted. So what can you do in a combat against a tough foe? Well...not that much. Stunning fist isn't going to be brilliant due to issues hitting, plus your Wisdom isn't your primary attribute so the save DC isn't vast. So you end up missing a lot, occasionally hitting and inflicting minimal damage and if you are lucky provoking a save and praying the target gets a '1'.
Then there are the abilities you gain....they are OK but often just don't cut it compared to what everyone else gets, at least for the core monk. They don't really let you do anything anyone else can't do. Sure, you have awesome acrobatics, can run and leap all over the place...and the wizard can cast fly (or anyone can drink a potion) and you're redundant.
That's what the higher levels are like. My major contribution in one boss fight was using maneuvers to immobilise a mind-controlled party member. I sure couldn't do anything against the boss! It's not lousy luck holding you back, it's lack of spectacular luck preventing you from contributing at all.
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what give it something like the enhancement bonus that soul knife gets?
** spoiler omitted **
this (modified to interact with ki) might be fair as a replacement for Unarmed Strike Damage chart (which is frozen hence at 1d6?)
maybe 4/7/10/13/16 could be flat enhancement bonus at ki 1+
and 5/10/15/20 could be for special qualities paying 1 ki lasting 1 minute?
or somesuch?
im so happy to never notice the first changes at all!!
we still use the monk as we know how to do it... like in 3.5
I fear that's all the change we can expect this edition. If gamers are considered to be pretty conservative in their design choices, the developers are tenfold so, at least after they have released a class into print.
The second reason is that rewriting the Monk extensively would screw up references to abilities in other books and the devs have already stated that they don't want to invalidate old CRB copies or even other books.
I personally hope that we catch on early when the development cycle for the second edition of Pathfinder begins and can lobby hard that the next version of the Monk will be built better that time around. My personal hobgoblin is that I'd want a martial artist with the option of becoming a mystical monastic warrior, instead of the latter being the baseline and mundane martial artists being the outlier.
Dabbler did you look at the link i posted for my monk Archetype. Heres the link <---- CLICK ME.
This monk build has wisdom to hit and damage gaining that at 5th level, gets an enhancement bonus to hit and damage like soul knife strarting at 3rd, and getthe dimensional agility line of feats build into the class. They increase their range to hit targets at 3rd level by 5ft and this increases to 15ft at 17th level. Take a look at it, i think it fixes some of the issues with monk.
There's not a lot of point debating monk designs that overcome all the problems when the devs are only going to make small tweaks in the existing core monk.
@Magnuskin - possibly not. The devs have made clear that they will only make small changes, then see how they work, then make more small changes if those were insufficient. What they wanted avoid was making large changes, then having to rescind them. That does not rule out further changes.
@Mikaze - I'm with you. The changes do help...a little, but not enough, and they do not address some issues at all.
@Atterlost - hey, I don't get WHY the devs work to the criteria they do either, but it's what they do, so we have to live with it.
So a little advice, would using wis instead of str for unarmed strike and monk weapons and the +1 to unarmed strike at 4th level increasing by 1 every thee levels thereafter along with the quignog and drunken master archetypes, make a monk that can somewhat keep up a group at higher levels, or should i just get ready to be disappointed.
I've said it before, i like the feel of the class and don't want big changes, i don't expect to deal as much damage as a fighter or a caster, i want do deal decent damage and set up the badguys for my party to be able to maximize their damage, or increase their chance to hit, or take his weapon away so he cant deal as much damage, that is the role i see the monk playing. I understand I'm not as effective against a big boss, but i want him to be viable without relying on buying the best equipment. Lets face it unlike a fighter or a caster, a monk isnt going to get a monk robe or monk weapon as a drop from a boss so I'll be buying most things myself. I like my character help me keep him as awesome as he thinks he is (he has a high opinion of himself)
A Gnoll monk of the hyena clan might have one or two cool monk items. Him leading a squad of normal Gnolls in guarding a site will stress the importance of the place. Note he can use his bite(1D4) in his flurry of blows.
Re: the AoMF price change, it's certainly better for the monk than it was, but the issue sill remains that it's a better item for druids, animal companions, and other natural attack using creatures/characters than it is for an unarmed monk.
The Brawling armor property is still out there trolling monks for daring to want nice things.
The Living Arcanis game had Lizardman monks. This was cool because they had the bite to add to the flurry of blows. A were bear monk would also have this property.
So a little advice, would using wis instead of str for unarmed strike and monk weapons and the +1 to unarmed strike at 4th level increasing by 1 every thee levels thereafter along with the quignog and drunken master archetypes, make a monk that can somewhat keep up a group at higher levels, or should i just get ready to be disappointed.
You needn't always be disappointed without these, but they'd fix the two major issues I can think of and bring you up to a level on a par with every other combat class against the kind of foes you might have to fight from time to time.
I've said it before, i like the feel of the class and don't want big changes, i don't expect to deal as much damage as a fighter or a caster, i want do deal decent damage and set up the badguys for my party to be able to maximize their damage, or increase their chance to hit, or take his weapon away so he cant deal as much damage, that is the role i see the monk playing. I understand I'm not as effective against a big boss, but i want him to be viable without relying on buying the best equipment. Lets face it unlike a fighter or a caster, a monk isnt going to get a monk robe or monk weapon as a drop from a boss so I'll be buying most things myself. I like my character help me keep him as awesome as he thinks he is (he has a high opinion of himself)
You pretty much sum up what I would love to see in the monk in this statement. Wis-replacing-strength for unarmed strikes and monk weapons would fix MAD (maybe bring it in at 3rd level), and the ki-strike enhancement bonus (maybe restrict it to hit only to keep the AoMF relevant) would pretty much fix the major problems IMHO. Going Qinggong gives you great flexibility with special abilities. Let us know how it goes!
Thanks for the help and advice
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Been away for awhile (various reasons) and I hope I get to come back on a more permanent basis. I saw this thread and had an idea that's just half formed. How about the Monk gains his Wisdom bonus to hit and damage with a limit of 2x his Monk AC bonus? For example, at 4th level the Monk gains a +1 AC bonus, making his maximum Wisdom bonus to hit and damage +2. Every time the AC bonus increases, the maximum Wisdom bonus increases.
This stops other classes from multi-classing Monk for the Wisdom bonus, because the Wisdom bonus would only increase with Monk levels. It could eventually result in +10 attack and damage bonus by 20th level.
I have yet to play with the new changes myself as I am currently play testing my own changes to the Monk in Legacy of Fire. They've been working pretty well. No one else I know has opted to play the Monk, so I have no input about the changes.
How about just allowing the wisdom bonus at 2nd or 3rd level, and only to unarmed strike and monk weapons? If you want wisdom bonus to hit (and damage) there's feats available to Clerics that can do that, and the guided property, so those determined to get it can and will without having to dip Monk levels. Limiting the bonus in the way you suggest will limit the dipping, but will make it effectively useless to the monk at lower levels.
Oh, I meant gaining his Wisdom Bonus in addition to his normal Strength/Dexterity bonus.
For instance, an 18 Strength/ 18 Wisdom Monk would have an ability bonus to attack and damage of +4 at 3rd level. At 4th level, when he gains his Monk AC Bonus of +1, he gains a further +2 to hit and damage from his Wisdom score. Even though he has a modifier of +4, his AC bonus restricts the maximum bonus to +2 until he gains a further AC increase at level 8.
So, in the above mentioned scenario, the 18 Strength/Wisdom Monk would have an attack bonus of +9 at 4th level, +8 when he fluries, and deal 1d8 + 6 with an unarmed strike.
Since any bonus to attack also adds to CMB, this would also help boost the Monk up into being better at maneuvers.
I wouldn't go that far, wisdom bonus instead of strength would work fine for reducing MAD, just on hitting alone (although replacing strength for damage might be not be unbalanced, there are many strength-based monks that I wouldn't want to completely devalue out there).
Would applying Wisdom to attack rolls only really reduce MADness? Monks would still need Str, Dex, Con and Wis anyway, so I think it'd end up pretty much the same.
For Zen Archers it works because it greatly reduces the need for Dex, but for melee monks, I'm not sure it'd help much.
Depends, Lemmy. My own proposals included a suggestion to bypass DR on just about anything. Low damage output but more attacks is a concept that works as long as you are hitting accurately and can get past any DR. Given that option, I think it would work OK. It would also give the monk a schtick in combat no-body else has: the 'I can always damage it' guy, and it would in most cases make stunning fist more effective.
I can see how it would improve the Monk and make more builds viable. One would be capable of focusing on Wisdom without being crippled at mid/high levels, and still reward those who want a high Str monk.
I'm just not sure if it'd be enough. Giving Monks full BAB would probably be the best solution, though we won't see that in this version of PF, so it's kinda pointless to discuss it...
Sadly, Monks have so many flaws, it's hard to make them effective without completely rewriting the class...
A Monk's equivalent to "Weapon Training" idea is the most we can hope for, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I'd also like to see the unarmed progression be better designed, instead of the ever increasing damage die, why not stop it at, let's say, 1d8 or 1d10, then boost its critical range to 19-20?
Monks could get some benefits from style feats for free, such as being able to add 1.5x str modifier to unarmed strikes, and being capable of dealing piercing/slashing damage if they choose to.
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What if you could chose a path at first level, iron body monk would use dex and con for AC and str for damage. An monk of the flowing river would use wis for damage and wis and dex for AC. This would allow monks who want str as main to be survivable and deal good damage with styles meant for high str like dragon, but give monks more focused on ki and combat maneuvers for control reasons using snake and panther style. Just a thought
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If Wisdom is to be subbed in for ST, i would personally still penalize a character for a low ST.
that is:
WIS 18
ST 8
equals +3 to hit (and if you are going that far, +3 to damage)
...
my main beef with "WIS to hit" is that it overloads the ability score (especially if you allow it to damage too!). It would suddenly be doing the job of ST, DX, WIS (itself), and CON.
ST? - to hit, (to damage!)
DX? - to AC
WIS? - Stunning Fist, ki
CON? - Wholeness of Body (healing), especially if this becomes 'fixed'
i am personally okay with the DX and WIS functions, but then either the ST or the CON is the overkill. in short, if you were to allow 'WIS to hit', i would then key a different ability score for the Wholeness of Body ability. maybe CON? CHA?...
The devs have made clear they are only interested in small tweaks, so changes like weapon training and full BAB are out.
I know what you mean rainzax, but unless you can come up with other alternatives it's what we have to work with. The monk needs to be down to two scores to be viable, and even that's tough.
On the flip sides, Wisdom does all the heavy lifting for clerics with their spell casting, which leaves the monk cold. With a few feats they get wisdom to hit too, so it's hardly broken in comparison.
Wholeness of body needs to be fixed to have any real relevance at all. It's never better than drinking a potion, and ki is a more precious resource to the monk than a potion most of the time. Lay on hands works for the paladin because he can use it on himself as a swift action, and he doesn't have much else to spend swift actions on. Wholeness of body is like many monk abilities: it really doesn't do anything a magic item in the hands of another class couldn't do at least as well if not better.
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My thoughts:
It doesn't fix their MAD, or the fact that they're trapped in a Full BAB/Three Quarters BAB nightmare, or the fact that Slow Fall should really be some kind of Feather Fall Spell-like Ability. It does however, mitigate a number of the issues, possibly to the point that the class could be played normally with a minimum of grumbling.
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two thoughts.
1) ok given that we resign unto 'Wis to hit' under whatever name, 'Weapon Zen' or otherwise, i had an idea about splitting the difference with ST:
Stunning Fist (Ex):
At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. .
At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This condition replaces stunning the target for 1 round, and a successful saving throw still negates the effect. At 4th level, he can choose to make the target fatigued. At 8th level, he can make the target sickened for 1 minute. At 12th level, he can make the target staggered for 1d6+1 rounds. At 16th level, he can permanently blind or deafen the target. At 20th level, he can paralyze the target for 1d6+1 rounds. The monk must choose which condition will apply before the attack roll is made. These effects do not stack with themselves (a creature sickened by Stunning Fist cannot become nauseated if hit by Stunning Fist again), but additional hits do increase the duration.
the design goal here is to keep viable a high ST build, for example coupled with the Martial Artist archetype, such that WIS falls off as an important ability score to invest in. (there is still the AC deficiency, and personally a combination of the bruce lee trope "never defend, attack the attack!" and the fact that i think Exploit Weakness is an unfair trade for the ki pool, moves me to consider ST to AC for this archetype only ((blasphemy!!!)))
2) how to make maneuvers viable from 1-20 with 3/4 BAB? maybe allow two attributes to add to all maneuver attack rolls? plus obviate the need for maneuver feats altogether? ex:
Maneuver Training (Ex):
A monk using unarmed strikes or monk weapons gains the benefit of the Agile Maneuvers feat, except that he adds both his Dexterity modifier and his Strength (or Wisdom) modifier to his CMB. Further, the monk never provokes an attack of opportunity while attempting a combat maneuver.
finally allowing several of the Greater maneuver series to be taken as bonus feats at lower levels (i think 6th is fair).
whaddya think?
edit: third thought.
why don't we lift the -2 penalty to flurry? having to not use your Fast Movement is already a penalty enough.
edit II: fourth thought.
how about Wholeness of Body cures all HP but flushes your (positive) ki pool to 0?
(this would have the quadruple effect of releasing tension from WIS, relaxing the madness that includes CON, making the ability actually useful/strategic without crowding the other ki abilities, and being more Wholeness thematic!)
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ReconstructorFleet and Rainzax you are both on to something, I'm GMing this Saturday and I'm going to sneak in some of these suggestions and see how it goes. I'll let you guys know on Sunday night how it worked out. This kind of brainstorming is great for the game, thanks guys keep up the great work.
@ Atarlost
That's a really cool idea, I'll include that modification as well this Saturday and see how it works out.
My thoughts:
Make Unarmed Strike Unique and Interesting
I think it's odd that a weapon with a hook gets a bonus to trip, while a bare hand that can grab doesn't, now that you mention it.
Replace increasing damage dice with Weapon Training
I love it, but it's not a minor change and so the Paizo guys are unlikely to add it.
Lets actually make them Combat Maneuver Specialists
It doesn't fix their MAD, or the fact that they're trapped in a Full BAB/Three Quarters BAB nightmare, or the fact that Slow Fall should really be some kind of Feather Fall Spell-like Ability. It does however, mitigate a number of the issues, possibly to the point that the class could be played normally with a minimum of grumbling.
There's already a maneuver master monk.
Bonus Crazy Talk:
I wouldn;t want to stack even more on to wisdom, if we are using wis-to-hit to moderate MAD.
Something that might actually happen that would be a good short-term, non-book annihilating fix
Indeed, it was suggested that this be an enhancement bonus from ki-strike at this level.
two thoughts.
1) ok given that we resign unto 'Wis to hit' under whatever name, 'Weapon Zen' or otherwise, i had an idea about splitting the difference with ST:
That still leaves everything else hinging on wisdom for other monk abilities, plus you still have strength-to-damage that keeps it important. The idea is to REDUCE dependency on some of the stats, not just shuffle it around.
2) how to make maneuvers viable from 1-20 with 3/4 BAB? maybe allow two attributes to add to all maneuver attack rolls? plus obviate the need for maneuver feats altogether? ex:
The problem with maneuvers is that in general they fall off in effectiveness for everyone, not just monks. I think what would help is if monks could use Wisdom for qualifying for Combat Expertise and other maneuver-related feats.
I just had a couple ideas.
1) Let a monk treat any DR or hardness as if lower by twice his wisdom modifier when making unarmed strikes.
How about reducing any and all DR by his monk level? Works from level 1, is not too OP, isn't available (much) on a dip?
2) Let a monk apply stunning fist or quivering palm as a will save.
I like the idea, as nerve strikes are well understood in martial arts. I'd say make it available as a feat or optional ability.
Honestly i don't see the problem with their to hit, if you want to get more damage get hand wraps and enchant them like weapons, or use a monk weapon their are a lot of them.
...which are not PF legal. There's the problem, if it comes to house-ruling it, we can all fix the monk and move on. PFS games, and games run by people we don't know, these are still a problem
The biggest problem I see is that the monk is all over the place and not specialized like a warrior, if we where given build options or even feats like the warrior, get rid of the medium base attack and just give us a full base attack progression, and let us build the monks the way we want to build them, unlike other classes we are except for a few feats we are stuck in our roles and if we try to do anything outside of that role we suck at it. Just give us wisdom to damage and hit and cmb and cmd instead of strength. If the monk wraps are not the option then give us something similar to the Soul Knifes ability to enchant their weapons but we need to keep ki focus, make ki focus work just like psionic focus.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but if we want an official solution from the devs, then we have to work within their boundaries. A core monk with more options is a great idea, I'd love one, but that's not going to happen. BTW have you seen Ashiel's "psychic monk" design? it works like a dream and looks to be exactly what you are looking for.
** spoiler omitted **
or make it so she can use it as long as she has ki left in her ki pool but it doesn't require hi to use.
I think having it expend ki is fine, I think to make it useful it needs to be different than just fixing a few HP - recovering lost ability points, or negative energy levels, that would be useful. The problem is, in combat what do you want to do with your swift action: spend ki to avoid being hit, or spend ki to fix a little damage?
hes another thought, give the monk an ability similar to divine bond but make it so that any weapon he wields can use his monk unarmed damage and and flurry of blows but doesn't get the weapon enhancement like divine bond, but she can use an enchanted weapon and it stacks with ki abilities.
Again, it has been suggested that ki strike make the monks unarmed strike 'enchanted' in in terms of enhancement bonus many times. I'm all for it, rather than have them dependent on one magic item to function at higher levels.
There's already a maneuver master monk.
Yes. But it is a bad archetype, and it should feel bad.
There's already a maneuver master monk.Yes. But it is a bad archetype, and it should feel bad.
I agree. But the devs are not going to wipe out an archetype, so we are stuck with it, and that means NOT making the core monk a better maneuver master than the maneuver master archetype.
did you read my change to wholeness of body Dabbler, its more like the pallys lay of hands but only for the monk.
You have only one swift action per round, in the middle of a fight would you use it to heal damage, or to not take MORE damage? Wholeness of Body, or AC boost?
See the problem? LoH works for paladins because they have very few other abilities that use swift actions, so the paladin trades out nothing for using LoH.
On the other hand, allowing WoB to do stuff that LoH doesn't makes it more useful to the monk.
I meant about the monk being able to wield a eg +5 vorpal temple sword but have it use the monks unarmed damage of weapon damage which ever is greater, count as magic, lawful and adamatine as per ki. The Ki ability the way i see it would allow the monk to pick up any weapon thats a monk weapon or 1 he is profecient with and be able to with it with his unarmed damage and ki abilities but get get the effect the weapons enchantments.
I think weapon properties like ki-focus should be doing this, myself. I prefer the monk as the iconic unarmed class, that can go armed, rather than have them as an armed class that can fight unarmed.
I like the idea, as nerve strikes are well understood in martial arts. I'd say make it available as a feat or optional ability.The problem with that is that if it's a feat or optional ability it isn't a fix. Unless you mean a completely new select at level 1 (or 2 or whatever) ability rather than an archetype type thing.
That depends on what you want to make of the monk. If you have a strong monk dishing out masses of damage, you don't need stunning fist. If you want a monk that uses wisdom and speed, then it's more important to focus on stunning fist. What the monk often lacks as much as core abilities are good options. Some ideas here I think should be core, but those that aren't essential are great options to add as feats.