So I have a PC that wants to play a strong Construct with about a +4 racial bonus to strength. I have the ARG. My problem is as such. We have 3 PCs in rise if the runelords. I let them use 25 point buy as I have heard it is lethal and there is only 3 of them. My thoughts are perhaps I lower his point buy to be fair to other players. I have also thought about making him kind of like the construct in Dragon Age where he has a control rod. I think to give him more freedom maybe make it a will save to go against the will of its owner. Any GMs with good tips and or suggestions would be helpful.
Well did you make the Race for him? Depending on the RP of his construct race lowering his point buy would make a lot of sense.
Also I took a look at making construct races before, and just removing the "not susceptible to mind effecting affects" would probably knock down that race point buy by like 6.
I did not yet. I only looked at ideas and the construct portion alone starts at 20. The average race goes from 1-10.
Don't allow constructs. They have like bazzillion immunities and benefits, and in the long run, will make the game too easy when they just shrug off all types of negative effects. 25 points is really much for a pc, a normal human is just 10rp if I recall.
Edit: Can you post his race sheet with the RP?
Go ahead and let him play it - he starts at a 5 point buy for ability scores as a Medium Construct with +4 racial bonus to Strength.
He cannot be healed without magic.
He does not naturally heal (no fast healing).
He has no DR from race, no special senses and a crummy set of ability scores. An 18 Str with 10s in Dex, Int, Wis and Cha isn't the end of the world.
I did not yet. I only looked at ideas and the construct portion alone starts at 20. The average race goes from 1-10.
Well if he has a good reason to play a construct and you're willing to do with some of the problems, then go for it.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/arg-creating-new-races The Full Construct type is loaded with immunities, and I'd recommend nixing the mind affect effects one. I would remove the "immediately destroyed at 0 hp" rule. I'd say those two things would lower it's RP by like 5, making him around on par with Aasimars.
Alternatively use the half construct type and just say he's a full construct.
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Constructs without modifications, I think those are too much for a PC. Even with reduced point buy, they're immune to a LOT of things that the game assumes can work on PCs, like poison and mental attacks.
So have a talk with the player; find out what it is about playing a construct that he really fancies. For example: if he wants to play a sort of battlerobot wading through poison gas, fair enough. Keep the poison immunity, but remove the immunity to mind-affecting attacks. If he's going for a Data-like superhuman mental stability, maybe keep the mental immunity but cut down drastically on the physical strength or resilience. (While Data has all that too, he was also on the Mary Sue side. And on TV shows there's less need for power balance between the actors than in an RPG where it's the actors fun that matters.)
+4 to an attribute is pretty extreme, I'd limit that to +2. A construct with poison/disease immunity and +2 Strength is pretty neat already.
One option is to require a dexterity and movement speed penalty proportional to the physical resilience; slow and steady. If you want to be fast, you can't be made of superheavy steel.
Actually I recall a VERY well done homebrew class for constructs that you should consider, gimme a minute to dig it up.
It's very balanced for Pathfinder, I believe.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8982582&postcount=1018
Here, let him use that. It's very nice and flavorful and the construct abilities level up with him rather than all start at level 1. Still, nix the mind affecting effects, those are for unintelligent creatures and he obviously has an int score.
If you are willing to go outside of Paizo, there is the Warforged from Eberron and the Gearforged from Midgard. They both seem balanced and playable. Just sratch the serial numbers off and fit the player into the setting, even if he is a unique being.
Granted if you don't have those resources that wouldn't do any good.
Just my $0.02.
-Kcinlive
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
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Make him an Android from the Inner Sea Bestiary, then either give him a 20 point buy or the 25 point buy and remove/nerf the Nanite Surge. If you want to be nice, maybe rearrange the stat bonuses to be +2 Str, +2 Int, -2 Cha, or some other balance that you feel would be appropriate, so he can still have the high strength he obviously wants out of this build.
BPC
Yea ebberon warforged isnt that bad, especially considering their issue with getting healed.
I had a paladin/monk WF that was immune to, or saved against everything.... but healing wasnt easy.
Actually I recall a VERY well done homebrew class for constructs that you should consider, gimme a minute to dig it up.
It's very balanced for Pathfinder, I believe.http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8982582&postcount=1018
Here, let him use that. It's very nice and flavorful and the construct abilities level up with him rather than all start at level 1. Still, nix the mind affecting effects, those are for unintelligent creatures and he obviously has an int score.
I like this as well. My problem would be all the magic resistances especially the immunities. Perhaps looking at building one like a class would be the way to go.
Start by finding out what the player really wants from his construct. Maybe he wants a warrior that doesn't need to eat or sleep, or maybe he wants to role-play a created being that questions to whether it has a soul, or maybe he wants ridiculous immunities and power boosts. You're trying to give your player the whole package, but the whole package is probably too expensive, so you should try to find out what he wants the most and figure out how to balance his preferred features. You might find out that you're trying to give him far more than he actually needs.
Another concern is the control rod disadvantage. A lot of games give players their choices of advantages and disadvantages (such as the World of Darkness games), and it can be difficult to balance arbitrary GM-controlled disadvantages (like a control rod) against other characters who have clear disadvantages, like a difficulty in refreshing magical abilities while in a city. It can work, but it takes dedication and sometimes a lot of creativity on the GM's part.
To illustrate, in a vampire game one group's disadvantage is that they go into berserk rages when provoked. The disadvantage of another group (the vampire mages) is that they are part of a hierarchy, have superiors they must obey, and gain access to new powers by advancing in the organization, performing well or otherwise maneuvering intelligently.
I've seen experiences vary wildly between games, depending on how the GM enforced the arbitrary disadvantage. In one game, the players were never really disadvantaged by their disadvantage -- they were never really forced to do stuff, and got access to most powers they wanted as long as they had the points. Although I'm sure they had fun with their choices, the players with an actual disadvantage had a harder time of things.
In another game, it was completely backwards. The GM was really involved in running stories with the vampire mages -- they existed at the beck and call of their NPC masters, were forced to constantly take risks, and it got to the point where their lives were in direct danger every game session because their superiors turned into antagonists and the other players didn't trust them (with good reason). After several player-driven purges and other events, only one of the PCs from that group survived to the end of the game. It was fun, but it was also really harrowing for the players in question.
So the more power you let sit on one character, the more you have to balance it, and if you balance it with an arbitrary weakness then it becomes your responsibility to make that weakness put it on part with the other characters -- and the more it's compensating for, the more work you have to do.
If you want to see how games might try creating PC appropriate constructs, take a look at Eberron's warforged and Pathfinder's androids.
healing wasnt easy.
^--That right there is pretty much key for balancing any automaton/jukebox-with-a-heart-of-gold playable character race ()
Building some kind of construct class or advancement similar to the 3.0 "Savage Species" book is doable, but gosh that sounds like a lot of crunching and converting. And you might end up with a broken mess at the end of it.
If a progression into full construct power and prestige is desired, it may be simpler to break down your desired construct chasis (stone, iron, etc) into it's individual abilities and do a bit of palm to palm balancing with other feats and class abilities in terms of whether they should be part of a tree (ie, start off resistant, work your way to immune, etc) or a milestone ability along the way (ie, poof I'm immune now that I'm level 9, etc). Then let the player choose them like feats with the prerequisite "More Human than Human" or "Construct"...whatever race you decide on.
But at the base of it, I really can't see how you could go too far afield by simply copy-pasting one of the existing automaton critter types and character races from the sources mentioned above.
I would say you build the race for him after discussion what he is really looking for.
(When ever I have allowed the player to make the race it is an absurd mishmash of cherry picked items that don't make sense.)
Yes, the construct type is 20 points. So you have to pick enough weaknesses to get it back down to around 12 or so.
I would suggest:
Resurrection Vulnerability (-1 RP) - since constructs aren't really alive, powerful life force hurts them.
Elemental Vulnerability (-2 RP) - the materials your constructs are made from are really affected by acid.
Elemental Vulnerability (-2 RP) - the motive force of your constructs is electricy so electrical attacks really disrupt that.
Slow Speed (-1 RP)
Greater Weakness (-3 RP) - constructs remember everything, but don't figure things out well, and have no real personality so: Int +2, Wis -2, and Cha -4.
Greater Paragon (2 RP) - constructs are strong, but slow and don't figure things out well: Str +4, Dec -2, and Wis -2 (again)
Total cost with the type included is 13 RP.
So ends up with all the standard construct pile-o-immunities and other stuff
Str +4, Dex -2, Con none, Int +2, Wis -4, Cha -4
Speed is 20'
Vulnerability to acid, electricity, and ressurection
Iron Golem
HD: d12
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Features
1 +0 +0 +0 +0 Iron Incarnate, Metal Bound Str +1
2 +1 +0 +0 +0 Indomitable, Str +1
3 +2 +1 +1 +1 Iron Plating, Upgrade, Str +1
4 +3 +1 +1 +1 Magic Resistance, Str +1
5 +3 +1 +1 +1 Wasting Breath, Str +1
6 +4 +2 +2 +2 Massive Build, Upgrade, Str +1
7 +5 +2 +2 +2 Greater Iron Plating, Str +1
8 +6/+1 +2 +2 +2 Indomitable Charge, Str +1
9 +6/+1 +3 +3 +3 Growth, Upgrade, Str +1
10 +7/+2 +3 +3 +3 Lead Feet, Powerful Slam, Str +1
Class Skills (2+ Int Modifier): None.
Proficiencies: The Iron Golem is proficient with his natural weapons, simple, and martial weapons.
Iron Incarnate: The Iron Golem loses all racial modifiers and receives the Construct type (which grants darkvision 60'), medium size, 20 ft. land speed, 10 bonus hit points for lack of con score, and 2 natural slam attacks dealing 1d8+strength modifier damage.
In addition, the Iron Golem takes +50% extra damage from electricity damage.
The Iron Golem has all the characteristics of the construct type (which has been changed from the normal construct type, so it is highly advisable the below is read):
No Constitution score.
Low-light vision
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Immunity to any effect that requires a fortitude save(unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Not subject to nonlethal damage, ability drain, ability damage, fatigue or exhaustion, or energy drain.
Cannot heal damage on its own, although it can be repaired via exposure to a certain kind of effect or through use of the Craft Construct feat. Can also be healed by spells such as make whole.
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
Never being alive to begin with, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected. It can only be revived by a wish, limited wish, miracle, or by reconstructing the Iron Golem's body (requiring 1,000 pounds of iron- or the golem's previous body, 2,500 gp worth of rare substances, and a DC 20 weaponsmithing or armorsmithing check) and then a reincarnate spell, which will always put the golem's soul into the new effigy.
Constructs do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
Lastly, the Iron Golem gains natural armor bonus equal to his strength modifier. This natural armor bonus increases by 1 when the golem's size increases.
The Golem also gains +1 HP per HD. This bonus increases to +2 at 8 HD, +3 at 12 HD, +4 at 16 HD, and +5 at 20 HD. The hp increases are retroactive.
Metal Bound: The Iron Golem's plating gives an armor bonus equal to 4+1/2 HD. This armor can be enchanted. It does not reduce movement speed, though it doesn't allow the golem to run and precludes wearing any other armor.
Ability Score Increases: The Iron Golem gains a +1 bonus to strength at all Iron Golem levels.
Indomitable: The Iron Golem gains a bonus to strength checks equal to his HD, and uses his strength score to determine balance and intimidate checks, as opposed to dexterity and charisma, respectively.
Iron Plating: The Iron Golem gains DR/adamantine equal to 1/2 his Iron Golem level.
Upgrade:
The golem continually tinkers with its own mechanics, and at 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter, it gains one of the below upgrades. The golem may also spend a feat to instantly gain a new upgrade.
Wrist Razors:
Various retractable spikes, blades and appendages spring out from around and on the golem's hand: its slam attacks now deal piercing, slashing or bludgeoning damage, and are considered adamantine for the purposes of damage reduction.
All subsequent applications of this upgrade increases the damage dealt by the golem's slam attacks by one step, and increases their threat range to 19-20. This stacks with improved critical. A third application of this upgrade increases the damage dealt by an additional step and increases the critical multiplier to x3. A fourth and final step increases the golem's reach by 5 feet with his natural slam attacks, and increases the damage by an additional step.
While the spikes are extended, the golem's hand is considered full. It may retract and extend them as a free action.
Weapon Compartment:
The golem's arm becomes hollowed out, and a melee weapon the golem is proficient in or a javelin is stored inside: he may release it or retract it as a free action. The weapon cannot be disarmed. It is considered adamantine, and the golem does not have to pay for it, though he does have to pay for any enchantments on it (it can be enchanted normally).
In the case of the javelin, it is attached by a chain, and the golem can return it to his arm by taking a swift action. He cannot fire the javelin if his hand is full.
A second application of this upgrade allows him to store 2 weapons, one in either arm.
Grappling Hook:
The Golem gains a chain & hook attached to his palm and spooled in his arm, which he can launch up to a distance of 30 feet plus 5 per HD, as a ranged touch attack. If successful, the golem makes a grapple check as if he had the improved grapple feat. If successful, the foe is dragged into the Golem's square or the golem is dragged to the foe's square (golem's choice), and the grapple goes on as normal.
An additional application of this upgrade allows the golem to deal an additional 1d8+strength modifier (or 2d6+str if large sized) constriction damage each turn of the grapple.
Wristbows:
The golem gains a heavy repeating crossbow suitable to his size, which he is considered proficient in, attached to his forearm. He may fire & reload this weapon one handed, as the crank is automatic, and it does not fill up his hand. The bows may be enchanted normally.
Additional applications of this upgrade improve the wristbow in one of the following ways, chosen when the upgrade is taken:
*Dual Wristbows: The Golem gains a wristbow on each arm. Any other upgrades apply to both wristbows.
*Steam Powered: The Golem powers the bow by steam heated by internal contraptions, rather than being spring loaded, and it uses bolts of solid iron, rather than wooden bolts: he adds his strength modifier to damage with the bows, and they are considered adamantine.
*Superheated: The steam heats the bolts to red-hot: he adds fire damage to attacks with the bolts equal to his HD. Requires Steam Powered.
*Quick Shot: Whenever the Golem succeeds on a slam attack with an arm that has an attached wristbow, he may fire the wristbow as a swift action against whatever he hit. The opponent is considered flat footed against this attack, and the threat range doubles. This does not stack with similar effects.
*Ballista(e): The wristbow does damage of a crossbow one size greater than normal. This may be taken multiple times, up to colossal.
Voicebox:
The golem's vocal systems become more advanced. He gains the effects of a continuous ghost sound ability (as an (ex)), and gains a bonus to bluff, diplomacy & intimidate checks equal to 1/2 his HD.
Chest Compartment:
The golem can open up his chest, and store things inside. At medium size, he can store 1 small object, 4 tiny objects, 16 diminutive objects, etc.- at large size, these sizes increase by one step. Finding the chest compartment requires a search check DC (10+1/2 HD+int mod), and opening it against the golem's will requires an opposed strength check against the golem.
An additional application of this upgrade makes the storage compartment an extradimensional space, as a bag of holding of a type equal to 1/4 the golem's HD.
Perfect Hands:
The golem's slam attacks are considered either magic and the golem's alignment, or cold iron and silver. Two applications of this upgrade allow both.
Long Legs:
The Golem gains Run as a bonus feat, gets a bonus to jump checks equal to 1/2 his HD, and gains a +10' bonus to move speed.
Restorative Metals:
The golem has a natural healing rate as if he were living, and is healed by positive energy half of what a normal humanoid would be healed.
Magic Resistance: The Iron Golem gains SR equal to 11+HD.
Wasting Breath: As a free action once every minute during his turn, the iron golem may breath out a cloud of poisonous gas which fills a 10' cone in front of the golem, plus 5' for every 3 HD beyond 5, up to 35 at 20 HD. Any caught in the gas must make a fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 HD+Cha mod) or take constitution damage equal to 1/2 the golem's HD.
Massive Build: The Iron Golem gains the powerful build ability, and his natural slam attacks now deal 1d12+strength modifier damage.
Greater Iron Plating: The Iron Golem's DR increases to equal his Iron Golem level.
Indomitable Charge: The Iron Golem, when making a charge attack against an enemy, may make an intimidation check as a free action against that enemy before hitting: if it succeeds, the enemy is stunned for one round. This is a fear effect.
Growth: The golem loses his powerful build ability, but gains large size and 10 additonal bonus hit points. His natural slam attacks deal 2d8+strength modifier damage.
To reconstruct the iron golem's body now requires 5,000 pounds of iron or the golem's previous body, 10,000 gp worth of rare substances, and a DC 25 weaponsmithing or armorsmithing check.
Lead Feet: The Golem, being made of denser stuff than most, automatically succeeds on any attempt to resist bull rush, overrun, grapple or trip attempts from creatures its size or smaller. If the Iron Golem would have to make a saving throw or skill check as a part of a move action against something that would hinder his movement (such as stepping through webs or keeping his balance on ice/grease) he may add his Str bonus to the roll, even if it already adds his strength bonus in this case, the strength bonus simply doubles.
Powerful Slam: The Golem's slam damage increases to 2d10+1.5x strength modifier damage, and gains the effects of the awesome blow feat with his slams only. If he already has the awesome blow ability, the save DC increases by 2.
This was the edited version of the above mentioned class.
I would say you build the race for him after discussion what he is really looking for.
(When ever I have allowed the player to make the race it is an absurd mishmash of cherry picked items that don't make sense.)
Yes, the construct type is 20 points. So you have to pick enough weaknesses to get it back down to around 12 or so.I would suggest:
Resurrection Vulnerability (-1 RP) - since constructs aren't really alive, powerful life force hurts them.
Elemental Vulnerability (-2 RP) - the materials your constructs are made from are really affected by acid.
Elemental Vulnerability (-2 RP) - the motive force of your constructs is electricy so electrical attacks really disrupt that.
Slow Speed (-1 RP)
Greater Weakness (-3 RP) - constructs remember everything, but don't figure things out well, and have no real personality so: Int +2, Wis -2, and Cha -4.
Greater Paragon (2 RP) - constructs are strong, but slow and don't figure things out well: Str +4, Dec -2, and Wis -2 (again)
Total cost with the type included is 13 RP.So ends up with all the standard construct pile-o-immunities and other stuff
Str +4, Dex -2, Con none, Int +2, Wis -4, Cha -4
Speed is 20'
Vulnerability to acid, electricity, and ressurection
I like this if I do end up going full construct. As to talking with the player as everyone has mentioned. He originally stated that he would almost be an orc and I mentioned it would be hard to ft something like that into RotRL since they are going to be very distrusting. He said he wanted to make a strong brute essentially he didn't even care if he was dumb and would eat everything in sight saying it would be funny. I said I would work on a race. We then began to look through the race builder and he liked the idea of a possible golem. He is still very new to roleplaying in general and I think he also liked the idea of the guy from Dragon Age. Thanks again for more tips and advice. Also what do you think of the above class? Is it too much, not enough, does it need help? I also apologize for the poor format, I did this all from my tablet.
It doesn't look bad to me, but I don't make custom classes. So I'm really not qualified to critique it.
You might post it over in the homebrew forum to get more comments on just the golem class.
I will second the suggestion of using the Warforged form 3.5 Eberron. Very balance and flavorful.
Thirded.