So, I keep hearing how the synthesist is bags of awesome. Sure, it's a cool class but I'm failing to see how it's the one man party. Would anyone care to post the build this pun-pun?
I post this in the rules forum because it's got to be a legit built and want to see all the badwrongfun that apparently so easily comes from messing with this archetype.
I would just ask you stick to a point-buy and already established races. Showing this thing at multiple stages would be nice. Say levels 1, 5, 15, 20? Even just a level 20 build would be awesome. No gestalt.
Flagging this post to move to Advice as you can only flag a post once.
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Where the sythesist really pulls ahead of other classes is defense. Even then, most of the really powerful defensive builds include at least two levels of paladin and dumping physical stats down to 7.
In a game where the majority of players believe defense is sub-optimal.
I won't be able to post any builds until this evening, but will see what I can come up with.
I don't want advice. I want to see a rules-legit build and welcome any quibbling that brings up that is so fitting to the rules forum.
Looking forward to it, Artanthos.
These are strong combat builds. What can they do in a skills or social situation? The build I keep hearing eluded to can do it all.
Step 1: Be a Half-Elf.
Step 2: Cast Paragon Surge(Extra Evolution).
Step 3: Take Skilled(Whatever skill you need).
Step 4: Instant +8 bonus to any skill, which stacks with all other modifiers.
If you plan on normally taking that feat then you can't do that. Extra Evolution can only be taken at certain levels.
Special: This evolution can be taken once at 1st level, and again at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th.
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Step 1: Be a Half-Elf.
Step 2: Cast Paragon Surge(Extra Evolution).
Step 3: Take Skilled(Whatever skill you need).
Step 4: Instant +8 bonus to any skill, which stacks with all other modifiers.
Step 1: Cast Evolutionary Surge, lesser (mostly because Paragon Surge isn't a Summoner Spell)
Step 2: Take Skilled(Whatever skill you need).Step 3: Profit!
And if you were able to cast it I don't think giving you a extra evolution lets you spend it right away.
That's just my take on it though.
You have to spent evolution pool points the moment you get them.
These are strong combat builds. What can they do in a skills or social situation? The build I keep hearing eluded to can do it all.
Since they can almost ignore their physical stats, their mental stats will be very good. Give them 3 evolution points in 'skilled' and they can be hands down the best at any social skill regardless of whether or not its a class skill.
Not to mention the fact that the summoner has a descent set of utility spells available to him, like invisibility (the stealth trumper), jump and featherfall (who needs acrobatics), alter self (I laugh at your disguise kit), charm monster, or the locate x spells.
Granted, each of those have their own caveats. Alter self is useless against true seeing, for example, whereas mundane disguises are not.
If you take EP point to put skilled into just spellcraft, UMD and, say, diplomacy you still have trade offs such as potentially having a bad fly skill.
So, from what I'm hearing so far is that in order to make up for these you need to fall back on spells basically shouting your way around ("must speak in a strong voice") the world which you can only do so many times per day. I don't see a problem with this.
Of course, the problem here is that people are assuming that you're always going to be able to assume your eidolon form when you need to roll said skill, and that you'll also have a round to spend casting evolution surge.
You have to spent evolution pool points the moment you get them.
When you cast Evolution Surge you get temp Evolution points for the duration of the spell. Its instant skill monkey for what you need. Also as kolo said, you can dump your STR and DEX and have a really good WIS and INT to go along with your CHA & CON.
Of course, the problem here is that people are assuming that you're always going to be able to assume your eidolon form when you need to roll said skill, and that you'll also have a round to spend casting evolution surge.
Taking 20 takes 2 mins I believe, whats wrong with a 6 sec cast then taking 20? The difference with 2mins and 2min&6 sec isnt that big of a deal. I wouldnt do this with Perception, but it should apply to most other skills.
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Here (no dump stats,no multiclassing)
Stats
10STR,10DEX,10CON,14WIS,16INT,22CHA
Fused Stats
30STR,16DEX,18CON,14WIS,16INT,22CHA
AC 34(with Mage Armorand Barkskin) +17Fort,+16Ref+16Will
Hitpoints 10d8+8d10+40 average 135 CMB 23+2Grapple
Attack
Pounce,Grab,Rake,Power Attack,Arcane Strike
(+22Bite,+22Claw,+22Claw,+22Slam if Grab sticks +22Rake,+22Rake)
Damage Bite 15+9+d6Energy+3Arcane+2AmoMF+d8
Damage Claws 10+6+d6Energy+3Arcane+2AmoMf+d6
Damage Slam 10+6+d6Energy+3Arcane+2AmoMF+2d6
Damage Rakes 10+6+d6Energy+3Arcane+2AmoMF+d8
(these numbers are with Heroism active)
Evolution Points 18
Quadruped
Evolutions
Large 4points
Pounce 1point
Bite 1point
Claws 1point
Grab(Claws) 2points
Rake 2points
Limbs(Arms)2points
Slam 1point
Natural Armorx2 2points
Energy Attacks 2points
Feats
Extra Evolutions,Skill Focus(Perception)
Power Attack
Extra Evolutions
Arcane Strike
Lunge
Gear:16000gp Belt+4strenght,16000,Headband+2 Int and Cha,10000gp AmoMF,Cloak+3 Saves9000gp,Ring of Protection+2 8000gp,Circlet of Persuasion 4500gp
Skills: 5 Skills per level +Skill Focus+ Evolution Surge+Heroism
This guy can Fly,Burrow,Swim,Climb and Teleport, has 5 Skillpoints Per level can cast charm person and dominate detect magic has acces to all senses(scent,low light,darkvision even tremorsense and blindsense per evolution surge) and all that stuff.
Now tell me what he can not do.
Of course, the problem here is that people are assuming that you're always going to be able to assume your eidolon form when you need to roll said skill, and that you'll also have a round to spend casting evolution surge.Aspect and/or Greater Aspect maybe?
IMO/IME The vast majority of the time, using ANY of the social skills as a synthesist is pretty much going to demand that your eidolon suit is NOT summoned. Townsfolk tend to be freaked out by that sort of thing.
So if one wants to put the Skilled evolution towards anything requiring social interaction, Aspect/Greater is the only reasonable way to do it.
Now tell me what he can not do.
His AC is a little low, but I like this. Someone needs to prove something a syntheist can not do. Im sure you can make a fighter that does more damage, a wizard will have better spells, ect ect....
But Syntheist does comparable damage to the fighter, can still cast spells, is one of the most durable characters there is, and can be the skill monkey. As the "whole package" he can make other characters feel like they are taking a backseat.
Low social skills. Can't pick a lock, use magic device, use spellcraft or make knowledge checks. You can get a passable skill a few times a day but that's it. You're really just a big smashy monster.
Of course, the problem here is that people are assuming that you're always going to be able to assume your eidolon form when you need to roll said skill, and that you'll also have a round to spend casting evolution surge.Aspect and/or Greater Aspect maybe?IMO/IME The vast majority of the time, using ANY of the social skills as a synthesist is pretty much going to demand that your eidolon suit is NOT summoned. Townsfolk tend to be freaked out by that sort of thing.
So if one wants to put the Skilled evolution towards anything requiring social interaction, Aspect/Greater is the only reasonable way to do it.
Is is a setting-specific thing. Granted you speak through it's voice so you'll sound like an otherworldly being but it's form merges with yours. You'll look exactly any freakish multi-headed, limbed, legged, clawed, etc monstrosity you want to be though.
Now tell me what he can not do.His AC is a little low, but I like this. Someone needs to prove something a syntheist can not do. Im sure you can make a fighter that does more damage, a wizard will have better spells, ect ect....
But Syntheist does comparable damage to the fighter, can still cast spells, is one of the most durable characters there is, and can be the skill monkey. As the "whole package" he can make other characters feel like they are taking a backseat.
Are you honestly suggesting a synthesist can make a wizard or sorcerer or any full-caster, really, feel like they're taking a back seat?
Low social skills. Can't pick a lock, use magic device, use spellcraft or make knowledge checks. You can get a passable skill a few times a day but that's it. You're really just a big smashy monster.
What??? He has 22Cha and UMD is a class Skill, there is nobody who can do it better than him, hes got uber social skills again 22 cha+ Circlet of persuasion and has skill focus perception,Spellcraft is also a class skill. Just you saying its not high on skills does not make it so.
Edit BTW you can just cast alter self if you need to appear Humanoid.
You didn't specify what skills or ranks you were putting them in. You just listed a formula for total available ranks. So, yes, I'll mash that around in my head to be whatever I want until you do. At only 5 ranks per level you're cutting something out, lots of things. Characters who get 15 ranks per level are still cutting out certain skills. There are just too many.
Alter self is fine against the commoner. Against any upper-CR creature it's nigh useless.
Hah, thats so absurd:)
How many skill points would you need to be good? A Ranger only gets 1 Skill point more and can't afford a high int without totally gimping himself.
But if you absolutely need it here goes:
Trait for Perception as Class Skill,Trait for Diplomacy as Class Skill
Spellcraft+18,Diplomacy+24,UMD+24,Knowledge(all)+9,Perception+23,Intimidate +10,Bluff+9
Thats a Skillset right there, he can make +17 knowledge checks with all knowledge checks with lesser evo surge.Even a wizard can't do that without spending all his skillpoints.
There is no Knowledge(all) so you'd be diverting 10 EP points for the various knowledge skills plus an additional 4 for the other skills you listed. How does that impact your build?
Also, there is no "good" point. Each has to choose their own area of optimization. It just underlines my point that there is no build in existence that is the one man party. Pun-pun is dead.
There is no Knowledge(all) so you'd be diverting 10 EP points for the various knowledge skills plus an additional 4 for the other skills you listed. How does that impact your build?
Also, there is no "good" point. Each has to choose their own area of optimization. It just underlines my point that there is no build in existence that is the one man party. Pun-pun is dead.
There is not a single Evolution point in those skills.Hes level 10 and gets all Knowledge skills as class skills,one skill point in every knowledge+2heroism+3Circlet makes +9 for all knowledges.
And this is not about being a one man party this is about being head and shoulders above the rest of the party.
So that's your base skills? Oh okay.
So you'll be fine for low to moderate play in the knowledge realm. Anything of a particularly high DC you won't be able to do. In my current AP there have absolutely been DC 35's thrown at my players at level 5. Don't go to any other planes, either.
You're still not out performing everyone else in the party. With your build you're in pretty much the same situation as a fighter versus a wizard except you get a few nifty toys too since you get some spells. However, any full caster is going to blow any synthesist out of the water in flexibility. If your party would be comprised entirely of martial types then yes I could see the synthesist being "omg awesome." But, the moment you get a heavily skilled class or any full caster you'll wax and wane just like any other party member.
You're still not out performing everyone else in the party.
We didnt say this, your extrapolating what you want to hear.
With one point in each knowledge skill, and his Evo surge he has competitive knowledge skills through level 10.
I specifically said you not out damaging the fighter or out casting the wizard, but the fact that you can fill every roll effectively in the party might be taking a bit much of the spot light.
Are you trying to understand other peoples view points? Or just doing this to argue for the sake of it?
You're still not out performing everyone else in the party.We didnt say this, your extrapolating what you want to hear.
this is about being head and shoulders above the rest of the party.
What's this mean, then?
With one point in each knowledge skill, and his Evo surge he has competitive knowledge skills through level 10.
I specifically said you not out damaging the fighter or out casting the wizard, but the fact that you can fill every roll effectively in the party might be taking a bit much of the spot light.
Any character with some casting potential built correctly can take any role in the party. You can have the skill-focused built, combat build, etc regardless of class. Only full martial types are constrained to either combat or skills.
Are you trying to understand other peoples view points? Or just doing this to argue for the sake of it?
I'm open to seeing this "do it all" build but until I do I'm saying it doesn't exist.
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You're still not out performing everyone else in the party.We didnt say this, your extrapolating what you want to hear.this is about being head and shoulders above the rest of the party.What's this mean, then?
With one point in each knowledge skill, and his Evo surge he has competitive knowledge skills through level 10.
I specifically said you not out damaging the fighter or out casting the wizard, but the fact that you can fill every roll effectively in the party might be taking a bit much of the spot light.
Any character with some casting potential built correctly can take any role in the party. You can have the skill-focused built, combat build, etc regardless of class. Only full martial types are constrained to either combat or skills.
Are you trying to understand other peoples view points? Or just doing this to argue for the sake of it?I'm open to seeing this "do it all" build but until I do I'm saying it doesn't exist.
So your point is you can't have a build that can max out all skills?
Synthesists are B.R.O.K.E.N. thats what people are arguing you can try to steer the discussion towards irrelevant details but that does not change anything.
I'm out of this thread
EDIT: ANd Synthesists do outdamage fighters
You didn't specify what skills or ranks you were putting them in. You just listed a formula for total available ranks. So, yes, I'll mash that around in my head to be whatever I want until you do. At only 5 ranks per level you're cutting something out, lots of things. Characters who get 15 ranks per level are still cutting out certain skills. There are just too many.
Alter self is fine against the commoner. Against any upper-CR creature it's nigh useless.
Against what 'uppper CR creature' presumably with something like true-seeing' is your appearance relavant at all? Do you often have social situations with high CR devils? No, you have them with other humanoids, which almost always are fooled by alter self.
No-one claims synthesists can out-rogue the bard, out-fight the fighter and out-cast the wizard all at the same time while simultaneously being the Face and knowledge-goto.
What they can do is fill any given role quite easily, and be far more effective doing it than most other "jack of all trades" classes like bards and druids.
this is about being head and shoulders above the rest of the party.What's this mean, then?
Not sure who said this, You dont have a name on your quote.
Now I do disagree with Sleetstorm on them being broken. I think its an archtype that if used correctly has awesome RP potential. I put the Syntheist in the same area as the leadership feat. Really powerful and not for everyone. Its really easy to abuse.
I'm open to seeing this "do it all" build but until I do I'm saying it doesn't exist.
This is a loaded question, we need to discuss the requirements of "do it all" before anyone can attempt to build you one. What DPR do you need vs what AC at what level? What Skills at what bonus by what level? What AC/DR/defensive abilities would satisfy the conditions, ect ect.
You cant design something if you dont have the design goals.
Thank you Ilja for summing it up better than I could.
Against what 'uppper CR creature' presumably with something like true-seeing' is your appearance relavant at all? Do you often have social situations with high CR devils? No, you have them with other humanoids, which almost always are fooled by alter self.
Mundane disguises could fool a CR 20 outsider. Difficult but doable. If they're trying to hunt you down you could appear to be someone else or look like someone else trying to set them up for that guys' attention. [Insert other potential RP or story reasons here.]
In my current AP there have absolutely been DC 35's thrown at my players at level 5.
This guy is obviously trolling. LOL
A Wizard with 22 Int and max ranks in the required knowledge would have +14. That means not even a natural 20 would be enough for him to make this skill check.So if your GM likes to throw unbeatable skill checks at you thats fine , but it can't be the benchmark for anything.
Ok, this thread has me curious. With the durability granted by the Synthesist Shell and a fairly good casting chassis (between bard and sorcerer) the summoner just might make for an interesting (albeit somewhat inferior) Controller God (a summoner alternative to the God Wizard.)
Now before I get started on this build I have to ask (since a cursory search isn't finding my answer) can a Synthesist use their Summon Monster SLAs in Synthesist form?
EDIT: scratch that, found it. Skimming kills, don't do it.
Not saying this to criticize you, personally, but skimming those abilities is probably is the largest factor in seeing the archetype as fundamentally broken.
In my current AP there have absolutely been DC 35's thrown at my players at level 5.This guy is obviously trolling. LOL
A Wizard with 22 Int and max ranks in the required knowledge would have +14. That means not even a natural 20 would be enough for him to make this skill check.So if your GM likes to throw unbeatable skill checks at you thats fine , but it can't be the benchmark for anything.
Hardly. Shattered Star book 1.
Hardly. Shattered Star book 1.
Im willing to bet thats not a one shot fail or make DC, but rather a scale. With a 15 DC you get x, with a 20 DC you get y, with a 25 DC you z, ......
Alot of AP's have that.
Hardly. Shattered Star book 1.Im willing to bet thats not a one shot fail or make DC, but rather a scale. With a 15 DC you get x, with a 20 DC you get y, with a 25 DC you z, ......
Alot of AP's have that.
It's not. In that instance there is a explanation saying the player's very well may not make it. However, one of my players had a spell from a class ability that let him get it so he succeeded.
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Buri, if you want people to take your request and this thread seriously, you might consider not using corner cases, non-typical circumstances, and unusual exceptions in attempts to prove your point. The average DC floating around Book *6* of Shattered Star is DC 25. The highest I see inspecting the first half of my adventure is 35, and it is written for 15+ level characters.
People are giving you reasonable responses to your request, but I think myself and others are beginning to see that no answer, no matter how thorough, is going to satisfy you. And you're antagonistic at that. If you can't reasonably accept conclusions based on the data provided by folks taking time out of their day to help you out, then I'm afraid you aren't going to find the answers you seek, but will find other posters abandoning any attempt at reasonable or helpful discussion. And frankly there's enough of that going around on these boards these days.
Buri, it sounds like you made this entire thread just so you could bash on the synthesis more than anything else.
It saddens me because discussions like this are usually fun but you came in already decided on the synthesis and unless he has absolute maximum of everything you've decided that it doesn't exist.
NEWS FLASH: He doesn't have to be the pure perfection of everything. Passing a Knowledge check by 30 and by 5 are the same thing. As long as he can do everything well he can be an entire party.
Later everyone
I'm bashing on the perception of the synthesist as this super-broken, good-at-everything behemoth when they're not. I'm cool with the archetype. I plan on making one in the near future.
So, that's why I made this thread: to challenge people to see if that behemoth build exists.
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Why not just evo surge more int and put the skill points you get into the skill you need? The bonus is to your base int so it should grant skill points (however temporary) for the duration of the spell.
The way I see summoners as being very powerful is not because they are the most powerful, It's because they are the most versatile. Between Evo surges and summons there is almost no ability the summoner cannot bring to the table. They are amazing for small parties because of this and fall into a DPS role in larger parties where there are more people who can do the things required with a better bonus. A fighter is better at fighting, a wizard at pure casting and faster casting (more details below) and a cleric at healing. But a summoner can do all of these things.
A summoner (synthesist or otherwise) can in fact do all the things a party requires. Especially after Ultimate Magic where they got the ability to add spell like abilities to their Eidelons. The summoner is probably better without being a synthesist, the extra actions means a lot more than the merged form. The biggest and best ability appears to be the early access to dimensional agility that synthesists get. A very early pounce for a melee class.
Spell casting specific answer spells requires a deep knowledge of the rules and of the summon monster list as well as the casting evolutions for the eidelon. with these and often times an extra round to give yourself the spell you intend to cast a summoner has access to more spells than just about any other class.
The summoner, and through it the synthesist, is a very versatile and able to do everything. just maybe not all the time. And they do have some big weaknesses. AMF and banishment/dismissal can make a summoners day very difficult. They can be absolutely deadly for a synthesist as they remove everything he does quite suddenly.
Im going to assume your not trolling Buri and are willing to be open minded about this build. Can you answer my previous request? What is the requirements needed to fill the "Do it All" role? This would give us a starting point for future debates.
Buri, if you want people to take your request and this thread seriously, you might consider not using corner cases, non-typical circumstances, and unusual exceptions in attempts to prove your point. The average DC floating around Book *6* of Shattered Star is DC 25. The highest I see inspecting the first half of my adventure is 35, and it is written for 15+ level characters.
Average implies things higher and lower. As I said, the one build that I've criticized based on skills would be passable at low to mid levels. I didn't contest that nor did I say it absolutely sucked or the entire build was worthless. However, it didn't meet the criteria I'm looking for.
People are giving you reasonable responses to your request, but I think myself and others are beginning to see that no answer, no matter how thorough, is going to satisfy you. And you're antagonistic at that. If you can't reasonably accept conclusions based on the data provided by folks taking time out of their day to help you out, then I'm afraid you aren't going to find the answers you seek, but will find other posters abandoning any attempt at reasonable or helpful discussion. And frankly there's enough of that going around on these boards these days.
My conclusion based on the data is that the build I'm looking for doesn't exist. I have no problem stating that. I simply do so using the data that's being presented. If that's being antagonistic so be it. I'm not making attacks. I'm not telling people to "stop posting in muh thread." I'm talking out my thoughts and giving and taking, you know, as people do in a discussion.
As builds keep being proposed I give a short analysis about it. I don't tear it apart. Again, I simply judge whether or not it's the build I'm looking for. I never saw this forum as a kids-gloves-needed kind of place simply as long as you weren't being a jerk.