| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This whole thread is a giant straw man.
Buri, can you point out ONE person who has said that Synthesists are stronger than every other character at every conceivable task?
Obviously at specific jobs other classes will surpass the Synthesist. The advantages that make Synthesist broken are 1) double HP, 2) incredible stat arrays, 3) switch-hitting between melee and casting, and 4) choice of evolutions.
A class doesn't need to be strictly better than every other class to be broken. Having twice as many HP as everyone else along with the ability to hit just as hard as the hardest hitters is already enough to make it far more powerful than the average character. You don't need to out-wizard the wizard in order to be broken.
Why not just evo surge more int and put the skill points you get into the skill you need? The bonus is to your base int so it should grant skill points (however temporary) for the duration of the spell.
Synthesists don't gain their eidolon's Int scores, so they don't benefit from mental stat evolution surges.
Hardly. Shattered Star book 1.In my current AP there have absolutely been DC 35's thrown at my players at level 5.This guy is obviously trolling. LOL
A Wizard with 22 Int and max ranks in the required knowledge would have +14. That means not even a natural 20 would be enough for him to make this skill check.So if your GM likes to throw unbeatable skill checks at you thats fine , but it can't be the benchmark for anything.
Pretty standard DC for a "nigh impossible to find" secret door. Given a bit of time, detect secret doors takes this out of the equation completely - 1st level bard/wizard spell. Aid another checks. guidance. Need we go on?
The idea is that such a thing is "almost impossible" at super low level, but not literally impossible IF your group works together with the highest Perception bonus character in the party.
Class skill (+3), alertness (+2), SkF (Perception) (+3), 5 skill ranks (+5) = a +13 Perception with a +0 Wisdom bonus at level 5, although a +8 is more reasonable (dropping alertness and skill focus). Let's call it a draw and operate with either a +1 Wisdom bonus or a 10-11 Wisdom and a +1 trait bonus.
Working off of the +9 (and without knowing party composition):
- keen senses +2 competence for minutes
- acute senses +10 enhancement for minutes
- owl's wisdom +2 bonus from enhanced Wisdom for minutes
- diviner's fortune (Sp) from a divination Wizard adds a +5 insight bonus
- touch of good (Sp) from a cleric with the Good domain adds a +2 sacred bonus
- heroism adds a +2 morale bonus for 10's of minutes
Let's go with 'just' the three spells acute senses, heroism, keen senses - they add +14 for a total of +23 - you only need a natural 12 on the die. If you happen to enjoy the other three bonuses, the +23 improves to +32.
As I see it, there's no real room to complain.
Im going to assume your not trolling Buri and are willing to be open minded about this build. Can you answer my previous request? What is the requirements needed to fill the "Do it All" role? This would give us a starting point for future debates.
Well, essentially it'd be a mash of the iconic roles: combat, skills and casting. You won't get the versatility of a wizard, granted. However, it should be robust in terms of concentration checks, spells per day a few heightened DCs, bonuses for penetrating SR and/or metamagic capabilities. SR is a very good to have but not an absolute necessity.
It should contain at least a few "core" skills easily capable of DC 40 checks by taking 10 at level 20. These are the skills that are essentially the character's bread and butter. Another, larger set of skills should be able to hit DC 30s at level 20. These are the "I can do it when I need to" type of skills and are largely situation-depdant such as fly, perhaps, if your character wants to be good at flying while not really focusing on maxing out that ability, for instance. Any others I wouldn't criticize as much as being ancillary in a "only if I gotta" role. Given the pervasiveness of magic in the system and it's essential role in all things magic I would consider spellcraft an essential bread and butter skill.
In a combat perspective it should have an AC of at least 40, again at level 20, with a single attack bonus of at least +25 doing at least 200 damage per round. A meaty DR rating would merit an AC below this but I can't see anything below a 30 base, 20 touch, 25 flat-footed to be considered robust at 20.
This whole thread is a giant straw man.
Buri, can you point out ONE person who has said that Synthesists are stronger than every other character at every conceivable task?
Sleet Storm has directly made such a claim about being "head and shoulders above the rest of the party." This with claims in other threads about it being such a broken class lends to the perception that it's simply way too powerful. I don't see it as such.
So your starndard for measuring the capability of a class is how it performs at a level that simply doesnt happen for the vast majority of groups?
I was not aware. I typically view the forum from the index which doesn't include these descriptions. Noted.
So your starndard for measuring the capability of a class is how it performs at a level that simply doesnt happen for the vast majority of groups?
My standard for measuring the CAPABILITY of a class is giving it as much time as it can (levels in this context) to bring in as many abilities as it has.
|
So your starndard for measuring the capability of a class is how it performs at a level that simply doesnt happen for the vast majority of groups?
Yes, and?
For the record, I do believe he asked for builds at 5, 10, 15 and 20. Which would mean that you could build a level 20 and reverse engineer to see what he'd be like at lower levels.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Obviously at specific jobs other classes will surpass the Synthesist. The advantages that make Synthesist broken are 1) double HP, 2) incredible stat arrays, 3) switch-hitting between melee and casting, and 4) choice of evolutions.
Just to clarify a few things...
1) Synths have high hp, but not double the hp of a real melee class and especially not a raging barbarian. This is because eidolons have reduced hit dice, non-maxed hp at first level, and the summoner uses d8s.
2) This depends on whether it is a low point buy or high point buy game.
3) You mean switching between melee and support casting, right? Even with maxed Cha, a summoner isn't a very frightening offensive caster due to their lowish spell DCs and limited spell selected.
4) Won't argue here.
Summoners and Synths are powerful, but I find that their abilities are often exaggerated.
Concentration check I dont believe will be a problem due to the nature of how things scale. Spells per day will be great for a half caster due to the really high CHA you can achieve, will be skipping the SR pen and metamagic due to thats not something half casters build to. If you only have 6 levels of spells you dont use alot of Quicken magic, but if its a must there are always Metamagic rods.
Skills shouldnt be much of a problem with being able to get a +8 on command. Perception is the only skill I would keep maxed out, due to the fact you want to notice things before they jump you (ie:you wouldnt have time to cast).
AC of 40 is a really good AC, infact, its not very easy for a fighter to obtain if he is using Archery or 2handed weapon in order to get that DPS you want.
If you have an problems with what i have above, I think its doable.
Why not just evo surge more int and put the skill points you get into the skill you need? The bonus is to your base int so it should grant skill points (however temporary) for the duration of the spell.
The way I see summoners as being very powerful is not because they are the most powerful, It's because they are the most versatile. Between Evo surges and summons there is almost no ability the summoner cannot bring to the table. They are amazing for small parties because of this and fall into a DPS role in larger parties where there are more people who can do the things required with a better bonus. A fighter is better at fighting, a wizard at pure casting and faster casting (more details below) and a cleric at healing. But a summoner can do all of these things.
A summoner (synthesist or otherwise) can in fact do all the things a party requires. Especially after Ultimate Magic where they got the ability to add spell like abilities to their Eidelons. The summoner is probably better without being a synthesist, the extra actions means a lot more than the merged form. The biggest and best ability appears to be the early access to dimensional agility that synthesists get. A very early pounce for a melee class.
Spell casting specific answer spells requires a deep knowledge of the rules and of the summon monster list as well as the casting evolutions for the eidelon. with these and often times an extra round to give yourself the spell you intend to cast a summoner has access to more spells than just about any other class.
The summoner, and through it the synthesist, is a very versatile and able to do everything. just maybe not all the time. And they do have some big weaknesses. AMF and banishment/dismissal can make a summoners day very difficult. They can be absolutely deadly for a synthesist as they remove everything he does quite suddenly.
I suspect this may be the case. I just wish people didn't resort to the "it's broken" line of think so quickly. Those temporary boosts are only temporary and can only be done so many times per day. Even tramogrify, the one that can truly morph you has a once/day limit and costs a 1,000gp each time.
Concentration check I dont believe will be a problem due to the nature of how things scale. Spells per day will be great for a half caster due to the really high CHA you can achieve, will be skipping the SR pen and metamagic due to thats not something half casters build to. If you only have 6 levels of spells you dont use alot of Quicken magic, but if its a must there are always Metamagic rods.
Skills shouldnt be much of a problem with being able to get a +8 on command. Perception is the only skill I would keep maxed out, due to the fact you want to notice things before they jump you (ie:you wouldnt have time to cast).
AC of 40 is a really good AC, infact, its not very easy for a fighter to obtain if he is using Archery or 2handed weapon in order to get that DPS you want.
If you have an problems with what i have above, I think its doable.
Dealing with another creature's SR is a must have as a caster. I would strongly urge you to include it. Also, keep in mind we're talking about a guy that can let off a few spells and then charge in to the BBEG and come out as the winner.
How about this line of reasoning: people who actually play in campaigns with Synthesists end up complaining that they feel useless because the Synthesist can solo encounters that would challenge the rest of the party.
If it's so powerful it makes things unfun for other players, it's broken.
Sleet Storm has directly made such a claim about being "head and shoulders above the rest of the party." This with claims in other threads about it being such a broken class lends to the perception that it's simply way too powerful. I don't see it as such.This whole thread is a giant straw man.
Buri, can you point out ONE person who has said that Synthesists are stronger than every other character at every conceivable task?
Can we get a link to the post to which you're referring? I'd love to see it in context.
|
|
How about this line of reasoning: people who actually play in campaigns with Synthesists end up complaining that they feel useless because the Synthesist can solo encounters that would challenge the rest of the party.
If it's so powerful it makes things unfun for other players, it's broken.
I've played in two campaigns with Synthesists, and neither of them was soloing anything. I'm currently playing a Synthesist of my own in a PbP, and the other party members contribute every bit as much as I do (and our melee-heavy group loves my Haste buff) and haven't complained about me supposedly outshining them.
Can we get a link to the post to which you're referring? I'd love to see it in context.
Copy the text, go back a page and search. It's incredibly easy to do.
When I search "head and shoulders above the rest of the party" in the Messageboards, I get no results. What am I missing?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Im going to assume your not trolling Buri and are willing to be open minded about this build. Can you answer my previous request? What is the requirements needed to fill the "Do it All" role? This would give us a starting point for future debates.Well, essentially it'd be a mash of the iconic roles: combat, skills and casting. You won't get the versatility of a wizard, granted. However, it should be robust in terms of concentration checks, spells per day a few heightened DCs, bonuses for penetrating SR and/or metamagic capabilities. SR is a very good to have but not an absolute necessity.
It should contain at least a few "core" skills easily capable of DC 40 checks by taking 10 at level 20. These are the skills that are essentially the character's bread and butter. Another, larger set of skills should be able to hit DC 30s at level 20. These are the "I can do it when I need to" type of skills and are largely situation-depdant such as fly, perhaps, if your character wants to be good at flying while not really focusing on maxing out that ability, for instance. Any others I wouldn't criticize as much as being ancillary in a "only if I gotta" role. Given the pervasiveness of magic in the system and it's essential role in all things magic I would consider spellcraft an essential bread and butter skill.
In a combat perspective it should have an AC of at least 40, again at level 20, with a single attack bonus of at least +25 doing at least 200 damage per round. A meaty DR rating would merit an AC below this but I can't see anything below a 30 base, 20 touch, 25 flat-footed to be considered robust at 20.
If that is what you want then I don't see whats your gripe here.The build I posted is level 10 and already pretty close to meeting your 20th level requirements.That same build built to 20th level would have AC well over 50,DPR of 400+ and could have more than 10 skills that could bet DC 40's.And there would even be room for some really high DC Dominate Monsters or Plane Shifts and he would have acces to pretty much all gamechanging spells exept Wish.
Does your browser have no search function? Go to page 1, hit "ctrl + f," paste and go.
|
|
When I search "head and shoulders above the rest of the party" in the Messageboards, I get no results. What am I missing?
There is no Knowledge(all) so you'd be diverting 10 EP points for the various knowledge skills plus an additional 4 for the other skills you listed. How does that impact your build?
Also, there is no "good" point. Each has to choose their own area of optimization. It just underlines my point that there is no build in existence that is the one man party. Pun-pun is dead.
There is not a single Evolution point in those skills.Hes level 10 and gets all Knowledge skills as class skills,one skill point in every knowledge+2heroism+3Circlet makes +9 for all knowledges.
And this is not about being a one man party this is about being head and shoulders above the rest of the party.
Are you purposefully being obtuse?
If that is what you want then I don't see whats your gripe here.The build I posted is level 10 and already pretty close to meeting your 20th level requirements.That same build built to 20th level would have AC well over 50,DPR of 400+ and could have more than 10 skills that could bet DC 40's.And there would even be room for some really high DC Dominate Monsters or Plane Shifts and he would have acces to pretty much all gamechanging spells exept Wish.
Let's see it, yo.
When I search "head and shoulders above the rest of the party" in the Messageboards, I get no results. What am I missing?
I said that and I meant it. The context was that Buri said that a synthesist isn't a one-man-party to wich I encountered that its not about him being a one-man-party but about the synthesist being head and shoulders above the rest of the party.
Ooooooooohhhhh. No, i wasn't being purposefully obtuse. I just mis-read what he was suggessting I do.
Thanks for getting me caught up.
If that is what you want then I don't see whats your gripe here.The build I posted is level 10 and already pretty close to meeting your 20th level requirements.That same build built to 20th level would have AC well over 50,DPR of 400+ and could have more than 10 skills that could bet DC 40's.And there would even be room for some really high DC Dominate Monsters or Plane Shifts and he would have acces to pretty much all gamechanging spells exept Wish.Let's see it, yo.
Do you even know how much time it takes to make an optimized 20th level build? What guarantees me that your not going to wheel around after I made it?
With the prevalence of Hero Labs it could take an hour, maybe 2. If you need to pen and paper it out I understand. But, I've stated my barrier to success. The only bit I'd be critical of is magical capability and skills. For combat I've put out hard numbers except for CMB/CMD. CMB should be around 25-30. I would think a CMD of 30 - 40 would suffice.
No problem. Seeing that it was fairly obvious (to everyone but me), i can understand people's reactions. No harm no foul.
Speaking of Hero Lab, does the current version handle synthesists well? I remember trying to make one in the program, but it didn't adjudicate all the different class abilities properly.
Haven't tried in a while, though.
With the prevalence of Hero Labs it could take an hour, maybe 2. If you need to pen and paper it out I understand. But, I've stated my barrier to success. The only bit I'd be critical of is magical capability and skills. For combat I've put out hard numbers except for CMB/CMD. CMB should be around 25-30. I would think a CMD of 30 - 40 would suffice.
Hah, the nerve of some people...
"Only an hour" is already a lot of time and I don't use Herolab.So I'm not comfortable with you leaving the backdoor open like that. If you want a build then you better define "magical capabilities and skills" so that we all know in advance.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Granted, each of those have their own caveats. Alter self is useless against true seeing, for example, whereas mundane disguises are not.
Awesome. I'm a person suspended in a large worm with tentacles.....
with a beard. They'll never see through that.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Dealing with another creature's SR is a must have as a caster. I would strongly urge you to include it. Also, keep in mind we're talking about a guy that can let off a few spells and then charge in to the BBEG and come out as the winner.
Understandable, but I dont believe he will have any save vs suck spells. Re-guard less, I wont have time to finish him right now. But i have the baseline drawn up. Looking like I can satisfy your criteria. Basics are:
Halfelf with Favorite class to evolutions, gives us 31.
Biped with crazy STR so I can meet the DPR.
Armor Class is at 45 without even trying. 18 NatAC base at level 20.
I have 160 Skill points, So im good there.
Even took the SR evolution and the Burrow for defense.
I have to say, I need most time to iron out details. The spell list will take a bit of time. But I think I can compete with all the major rolls except vs a full caster. Even so, I will have some casting.
EDIT: I Dont have Herolabs, this is pen and paper
Hah, the nerve of some people...
"Only an hour" is already a lot of time and I don't use Herolab.So I'm not comfortable with you leaving the backdoor open like that. If you want a build then you better define "magical capabilities and skills" so that we all know in advance.
Whatever man. If you're not willing to post a build then please don't claim things about builds.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Synthesist is not broken. In the hands of a skilled player, it can steal the spotlight though, especially if the player is optimizing and the rest of the party is not.
In short Buri the super-build does not exist. The class is "Very Good" though, especially if played well.
Personally I prefer the default summoner for action economy.
PS:Be prepared to "bring it" if you have to GM one.
|
This thread got weird.
ANYWAY
You want some synthesist builds to look at? Here are four synthesist builds, fully statted out and explained at various levels. Do with them what you will.
This thread got weird.
ANYWAY
You want some synthesist builds to look at? Here are four synthesist builds, fully statted out and explained at various levels. Do with them what you will.
Thanks!
DC 35? 10 +15 highest possible casting ability score bonus +9th spell level = 34 for 9th level spells. Summoner spells cap at 6, resulting in a "best possible case" DC of 31, 33 with greater spell focus, 35 with Spell Perfection for 1 spell.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ok so here it is Just so that nobody can say I don't back up my claims
The same build to level 20 just 1 feat has been exchanged
DPR against Tarrasque on a charge with Boots of Haste activated:383.9
AC 54 Hitpoints 520
Saves +28Fort +25Ref +26Will
Best Spell DC is 29 with Dominate Person but can cast Maze with no save
Has 8 skills that can easily beat DC 40 and another 7 skills floating around 20
Stats
46STR 24DEX 30CON 20WIS 36CHA 24INT
AC 54 HP 20d8+200+15d10+150 avg.520 CMD74 CMB45+2Grapple
Attack
with Powerattack
(+32Bite,+32Claw,+32Claw,+32Claw,+32Claw,+32Gore,+30Tailslap+Rend)
Damage Bite 2d6+27+15+5+d6Energy+5Arcane avg. 62.5 85.3
Damage Claws 1d8+18+10+5+d6energy+5Arcane avg. 46 125.56
Damage Gore 2d6+18+10+5+d6energy+5Arcane avg. 48.5 33.1
Damage Slam 3d6+18+10+5+d6energy+5Arcane 52 35.65
Damage Rend Claw Damage +27 avg.73
Evolution Points 35
Huge 10points
Limbs 2points
Clawsx2 2points
Bite 1point
Gore 2points
Tail+TailSlap 2points
Rend 2points
Natural Armor x5 5points
Ability Score Increase(Strenght) 4points
Energy Attacks 2points
Pounce 1point
Feats
Extra Evolutions,Skill Focus Perception
Power Attack
Extra Evolutions
Arcane Strike
Dimensional Agility
Extra Evolutions
Dimensional Assault
Extra Evolutions
Dimensional Dervish
Skills:9points per level
Diplomacy+41,Bluff+38,Intimidate+38,Spellcraft+32,Knowledge(arcana)+32,Know ledge(Planes)+32,Knowledge(Local)+32,Perception+36,Knowledge(History)+17,Kn owledge(Nature)+17,Knowledge(Geography)+17,Knowledge(Dungeoneering)+13,Know ledge(Engineering)+13,Knowledge(religion)+13,Knowledge (History)+13,UMD+24
Gear:Belt of Physical Perfection +6 144000gp,Headband of Mental Superiority+6 144000gp,Tome of Leadership and Influence+5 137500gp,Bracers of Armor+8 64000gp,Ring of Protection+5 50000gp,AmoMF+5 100000gp,Cloak of Resistance +5 25000,Circlet of Persuasion 4500gp, Boots of Haste 12000gp,Robe of Gates 64000gp,Tome Of Clear Thought +4 110000gp
880000gp spend 0gpremaining
Spells Known
Level1 Shield,Reduce Person,Grease,Identify,Protection From Evil,Unseen Servant
Level2 Alter Self,Summon Eidolon,Barkskin,Invisibility,Haste,Restore Eidolon
Level3 Charm Monster,Dispel Magic;Displacement,Heroism,Evolution Surge,Dimension Door
Level4 Wall of Stone ,Overland Flight,Teleport,Protection from Energy Communal,Transmogrify,Baleful Polymorph
Level5 Greater Dispel Magic,Etheareal Jaunt,Planeshift,Spell Turning ,True Seeing
Level6 Dominate Monster,Create Demiplane,Maze,Protection from Spells,Dimensional Lock
|
This character may or may not touch upon what u want Buri but i hope u like the effort i put in to attempt to create what ur asking for.
-Race / Class-
Half - Elf / Summoner (Synthesist), Anti-Paladin 2, Monk 1
-Stats with out Eidolon (25 point buy)-
STR 07 (+6 item) = 13
DEX 07 (+6 item) = 13
CON 10
INT 13 (+3 age) = 16
WIS 17 (+6 item)(+3 age) = 26
CHA 18 (+2 racial)(+3 age)(+5 leveling)(+6 item)(+5 tome) = 39
-Saves with out Eidolon-
Fort = 30
Reflex = 29
Will = 42
AC = 38
Touch = 25
Flat - Foot = 28
-Stats with Eidolon-
STR 29
DEX 28
CON 13
INT 16
WIS 26
CHA 39
-Saves with Eidolon-
Fort = 34
Reflex = 39
Will = 46
AC = 72 (76 with combat expertise)
Touch = 31
Flat - Foot = 58
-Eidolon Abilities-
Base - Darkvision, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Devotion, Multiattack
Form - Biped - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Claws (x2)
limbs (arms) (x2)
Immunity (acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic)
Spell Resistance (28)
Flight Su (30ft)
Improved Natural Armor (x4 = 8ac)
Improved Damage (claws)
-Class / Feat Progression-
M 01 Dodge, Skill Focus Perception, Toughness
P O2
P 03 Combat Expertise
S 04
S 05 Extra Evolution
S 06
S 07 Combat Reflexes
S 08
S 09 Extra Evolution
S 10
S 11 Vigilant Eidolon
S 12
S 13 Extra Evolution
S 14
S 15 (insert feat here)
S 16
S 17 (insert feat here)
S 18
S 19 Extra Evolution
S 20
-Gear-
Bracers of Armor
Ring of Protection
Ring of Forcefangs
Cloak of Resistance
Amulet of Natural Armor
Headband of Mental Prowess (wis and cha)
Belt of Physical Might (str and dex)
Mantle of Immortality (negate penalties to old age)
High saves, immunities to all spell damage but positive / negative and force, and spell resistance. Can self heal Via Rejuvinate Eidolon and Health Conduit. Self buffs with spells. Has 5 skills a level maxing out UMD for access to scrolls and wands for added casting.
For added fun u can have a wizard/sorcerer kill u, bring u back as a Skeletal Champion, and release u to make things more cheese since ur cha will now b used for HP instead of con.
|
|
Ok so here it is Just so that nobody can say I don't back up my claims
The same build to level 20 just 1 feat has been exchanged
DPR against Tarrasque:494.5 ...and thats not even charging.I didn't even bother to calculate the Rakes since hes not likely to Grapple the thing.But still on a charge he drops the Tarrasque to zero in one round.
AC 54 Hitpoints 520
Saves +28Fort +25Ref +26WillBest Spell DC is 29 with Dominate Person but can cast Maze with no save
Has 8 skills that can easily beat DC 40 and another 7 skills floating around 20
** spoiler omitted **...
Sorry to state but ur character is illegal. Ur stat increase evolution is rong. It state under the Eidolon's Large evolution last sentance that "The ability increase evolution costs twice as much (4 evolution points) when adding to the Strength or Constitution scores of a Large or Huge eidolon." U have it 3x at a total of 6 points when in fact it is supposed to be 12. Ive read this class countless times and allow it in my games because i find it easy to understand as long as u take the literal 35mins to read it.
*EDIT*
Ninja woo is me *cry*
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Scenario 1: *kicks a dead horse and yells*
"That will teach you to be a dead horse!"
*kick*
Scenario 2: *beats head against a brick wall as friend approaches*
Friend- "What are you doing, Byrd?"
Me- "Trying to have a productive conversation here. You mind?!?"