@ Lord Foul II: If only. With armor, 5 foot land speed doesn't go lower than 5 (although the table for speeds admittedly does not list 0... still, I'd have to assume that following the general progression means no penalty from 0). Unless you mean something else?
I think you'd need something that actually lowers it, even if only by 5. Provided it doesn't have a minimum to the reduction (like the Oracle's curse does not), there's your reverse Merfolk :P
and because of that limited movement. merfolk are basically limited to classes that provide base land speed boosts and blowing their first level feat on fleet.Any means of flight (of which there are several) will get around this with no problem.
Or pick up a mount. Land speed's not a problem if riding a horse, and hey, you've got a +2 bonus to Cha, in addition to your Dex and Con anyway. Even for classes that might eventually have access to flight, this'll suffice for earlier levels.
And really, if worst comes to worst? You've just got a slow land speed. It can be annoying, but doubtful will it ever be crippling.
And for this one drawback, you get +6 in stats, +2 Natural armor, permanent water breathing and a swim speed, and even immunity to tripping.
Not too shabby.
the natural armor only applies as long as you don't use a polymorph effect or play a beast totem barbarian with a higher natural armor bonus
the stat bonuses make a great caster oracle. but the human favored class bonus matters a lot more than an extra +2 to con and dex.
swim speeds and water breathing only really matter in aquatic campaigns, but are otherwise situational
flight has it's own drawbacks in the game mastery section of the core rulebook and isn't as automatic as commonly percieved
and most mounts for medium riders cannot fit indoors, or in most dungeons. those dungeons also punish flight.
Energy resistance is nothing special. I mean, sure it can prevent some extraneous damage from spell effects, but will it save the aasimar from getting gored or clawed... not really.
I've played with aasimars and tieflings and nobody seems to pick the race specifically for the resistances, it's usually been for flavor.
When resistance does come up, the player has a small victory and the fun they are having with the game increases.
Although, there is another side to this...
If you have friends who abuse resistance, then put them up against one of the myriad beasties that don't use energy in their attacks. A good scuffle with an advanced owlbear may shake them up a bit.
the natural armor only applies as long as you don't use a polymorph effect or play a beast totem barbarian with a higher natural armor bonus
the stat bonuses make a great caster oracle. but the human favored class bonus matters a lot more than an extra +2 to con and dex.
swim speeds and water breathing only really matter in aquatic campaigns, but are otherwise situational
flight has it's own drawbacks in the game mastery section of the core rulebook and isn't as automatic as commonly percieved
and most mounts for medium riders cannot fit indoors, or in most dungeons. those dungeons also punish flight.
The polymorph and beast totem is situational. Either way, it's better to have that natural armor and not be using it than it is to not have it.
I agree, I would go with human before merfolk for an oracle, but Con and Dex are good for just about anyone. Cha may be more situationally useful, but is also nice for more than just an Oracle (Bard, Paladin, Sorcerer, Summoner, and Ninja all come to mind).
Swim speed and water breathing fall into the same category as Natural Armor - I'd rather have it and not need it than not have it.
I was actually going to mention this on your assessment of the Strix, but flight is actually... ridiculously easy in most cases. I know it's not automatic, but you'll generally need to be able to hit 10 to Hover and little else unless the GM gets creative with gale-force winds to mess you up.
By level 5, where flight starts to become accessible, you can have 5 ranks in it, at least a +1 dex mod because of race, but more likely +2 or higher, and if you have it as a class skill, that's already +9 or more for automatic success on Hovering or when being attacked. And if you're doing this through magical means of flight, you probably have another +1/2 CL in flight bonus. It's pretty easy to make the DC's, and you can easily just put it on when needed if using spells for it. It would probably be useful for someone with 30 feet land speed too, so it's just moderately more useful to a merfolk.
The bit about mounts was partially lumped in with the worst case scenario. So you're stuck at 15 feet of land movement. Not that big a deal. As for dungeons punishing flight, I don't see how. Just because you can't fly 50 feet up into the air doesn't mean you're penalized if you're floating about 10 feet off the ground. Heck, you can fly at ground level if you'd like, and your land speed still won't matter, because you'll be flying. And as I said, Fly DC's are pretty darn simple.
There's also the human variant azlanti pureblood who gets +2 to all stats...
Can't find it on the RPD or the d20pfsrd.com. Can you help med with the source?
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While Aasimar are very nice and can fit into almost any class due to their variants, they aren't truly that overpowered. Granted, they are more powerful than a core race would be, but a lot of their advantages diminish over time. Resistances are nice and all, but this becomes less and less of an issue as the rest of the party accrues class abilities, magic items, and spells that can accomplish the same (if not higher) resistances, thereby rendering the aasimar's head start moot. Besides, beyond environmental effects, most low-level encounters deal with physical damage, against which aasimars (unlike, say, kobolds or changelings) have no bonuses against. Darkvision is always very nice of course, but Dwarves and Half-Orcs also get Darkvision. Their spell-like ability is...um...okay I suppose? Alternative versions of it can be strong, but I make players roll if they want to try and change its power, and at that point its luck based (they could gain tingling pregnancy senses or an extra +2 all based on the luck of the die).
Again, all of these are nice to start, but they have their problems. Unlike common races, they lack the versatility of favored class bonuses other races get. Unlike humans, whose extra feat is a far greater and more practical head start than resistances and spell-like abilities. Heck, they're probably better than any other race at what they do...BUT they can't do everything nearly half so well.
That aside, since i run a very RP heavy game, I strictly enforce the consequences of playing an aasimar, which often discourages players from the class after an NPC asks if they can have a pint of their blood or a lock of their hair for upteenth bazillionth time...
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Any race more powerful than a core race is "overpowered".
Is it broken? No. But when you have an option that is supposed to be "rare" and you make it more powerful than what is supposed to common, you introduce an incentive to disrupt the setting.
If they wanted to make Aasimars better, they should have made it enough to warrant a level penalty. If not, they shouldn't outshine core.
That was a major problem in 3.5, and one I would like to avoid going forward.
Half orcs with the APG are better than aasimar in a lot of things. half orcs have some amazing alternate racial traits
It would take a *lot* of convincing for me to consider Aasimar or Tieflings more powerful than Humans and Dwarves.
I have to agree. Only in some very specific builds would I want Aasimar over a Feat and a boat load of skill points. Another +2 in something means far less then people give it credit for. After all you can buy ability scores. You can not buy feats. (well some items mimic feats but most of the time you can't.)
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It is another plus two in something, without any minuses.
Unlike Humans, they get Darkvision.
Unlike Dwarves they get full movement.
Unlike both they get acid resistance 5, cold resistance 5, and electricity resistance 5.
And on top of that have a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Perception checks (two of the most important skills) and can use daylight once per day as a spell-like ability.
It is another plus two in something, without any minuses.
Unlike Humans, they get Darkvision.
Unlike Dwarves they get full movement.
Unlike both they get acid resistance 5, cold resistance 5, and electricity resistance 5.
And on top of that have a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Perception checks (two of the most important skills) and can use daylight once per day as a spell-like ability.
And still none of it as valuable as a feat. Darkvision is largely just fluff as light sources are not a problem. Daylight is next to worthless. Diplo being important is frankly just opinion, for many builds it is not. Perception on the other hand is important yes.
Resistances are pretty nice. Still not worth it for a great deal of feat starved builds. The race is useable but in no way does it phase out humans. Meaning the race is exactly where it should be.
I see what you mean. And if you are planning on becoming a cleric, you can get immunity at later levels.
Standard aasimar are ideal for being Clerics. Literally. Haven't seen one in my game that wasn't one.
Honestly, it's the strongest thing about a decent race, but there are stronger things. A halfling's +1 to all saving throws may help negate the need for resistance, for example, while humans get a free bonus feat of their choice. That's huge, and better than resistances in my opinion.
Disagree. Those saves are very very helpful, even more than some measly feat. In comparison, one can get a +2 to one save with a feat, while halflings get a grand total of +3 spread out.
Math is fun.
darkvision can be easily replaced by a 75 gold piece ioun stone.Not *quite* Lumi. Darkvision's primary benefit is replaced by that Ioun Stone, but that Ioun Stone does come with it's own faults. For one thing it shows observers where you are and that you're coming, and for another it can be sundered, stolen, or dispelled.
(Not that your post wasn't generally accurate, I just felt like clarifying that point.)
it does show observers where you are, but darkvision has a similarly limited range, and most foes you face will have equal or better darkvision or some other sense. which makes the stealth benefit of your own darkvision a little less important.
while most PCs can easily get 60 feet with most races, most monsters can gain 90 or 120 much more easily without requiring a specific rarely used feat. there do exist racial options with 90 or 120 as well. but they have their own limitations.
Wrong. Having a light in a dungeon basically means everyone and their uncle can see you coming. Darkvision is basically essential to being a sneaky sort, like Rogues. Did you know that one can see smoking a cigarette for MILES at night, away from the real world's cities and their artificial light?
It is another plus two in something, without any minuses.
Unlike Humans, they get Darkvision.
Unlike Dwarves they get full movement.
Unlike both they get acid resistance 5, cold resistance 5, and electricity resistance 5.
And on top of that have a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Perception checks (two of the most important skills) and can use daylight once per day as a spell-like ability.
And still none of it as valuable as a feat. Darkvision is largely just fluff as light sources are not a problem. Daylight is next to worthless. Diplo being important is frankly just opinion, for many builds it is not. Perception on the other hand is important yes.
Resistances are pretty nice. Still not worth it for a great deal of feat starved builds. The race is useable but in no way does it phase out humans. Meaning the race is exactly where it should be.
Read Diplomacy. It changes NPC reactions to PC's. Very very potent. Perception also very potent, used all the time.
Daylight can be given up via Blood of Angels for a +2 to nearly any stat. It can also be used in the dungeon to dazzle nearly everyone with darkvision.
Wrong. Having a light in a dungeon basically means everyone and their uncle can see you coming. Darkvision is basically essential to being a sneaky sort, like Rogues. Did you know that one can see smoking a cigarette for MILES at night, away from the real world's cities and their artificial light?darkvision can be easily replaced by a 75 gold piece ioun stone.Not *quite* Lumi. Darkvision's primary benefit is replaced by that Ioun Stone, but that Ioun Stone does come with it's own faults. For one thing it shows observers where you are and that you're coming, and for another it can be sundered, stolen, or dispelled.
(Not that your post wasn't generally accurate, I just felt like clarifying that point.)
it does show observers where you are, but darkvision has a similarly limited range, and most foes you face will have equal or better darkvision or some other sense. which makes the stealth benefit of your own darkvision a little less important.
while most PCs can easily get 60 feet with most races, most monsters can gain 90 or 120 much more easily without requiring a specific rarely used feat. there do exist racial options with 90 or 120 as well. but they have their own limitations.
Darkvision doesn't make you that much sneakier, while a light can be seen for miles. you still aren't getting the drop on your foes. because their darkvision likely equals or surpasses your own, and most monsters with shorter range darkvision have some compensatory super sense.
and rogues aren't very good at stealth to begin with, at least without a level of shadowdancer.
the reason why, is because finding concealment to hide is so difficult, unless your foes are humans who haven't invested resources into darkvision.
but then, darkvision is quite easy for nonhumans to milk.
i don't know what group of foes in a world where groups of small scale guerrilla skirmishing bandits exist in every known settlement, doesn't set up a series of patrols to keep these so called "adventurers" from killing them and taking their stuff.
Who needs patrols? Just invest in a kobold settlement further up the caverns towards the surface and maintain a watch. When the kobolds get killed, you know something's coming
i can understand a few kobolds dying. but those things breed faster than rabbits do. and it would take a lot of resources to clear an entire kobold settlement.
so the small scale group of serial skirmish bandits after clearing the kobold cave for slim pickings, will probably rest in a nearby village, recover and return. which would require monster patrols again.
and all the alchemical goods, consumables, and dismantled traps salvaged from the deceased kobolds, can now be use against the creatures that invested in the settlement.
unless the monsters knew to raid the adventurers while they were heading to town. but they would have to find proof of their slaughter. which depends on how close they are to the settlement.
I see what you mean. And if you are planning on becoming a cleric, you can get immunity at later levels.Standard aasimar are ideal for being Clerics. Literally. Haven't seen one in my game that wasn't one.
Only if you want to make a caster/channel build. My cleric is human, bonus put into strength (18 and wields a great-sword), has a decent charisma(13, don't need a huge bonus there for channels when i can just spend a feat) and 15 wisdom (going to be only casting buffs/condition removal, don't need a high DC).
Aasimars are pretty decent, but they aren't actually anything special in terms of power level. They are good for certain builds, for instance the angel blooded ones are great paladins. But even with that it can be argued that humans and other classes are better (subjective, how important are feats and skill points to you?)
Actually there is also a pretty big drawback no one has touched on: No raise dead, resurrection, and the like.....unless you take the alternate racial trait.
Darkvision as a PC power is nearly unnoticable for anyone that sticks with the party. Assuming your party has at least one person without darkvision, your party STILL carries a light source. It might be good for the rogue if he's going to sneak away from the group though, since the concealment granted by darkness is good enough to make Stealth checks with....
the only PC races without access to darkvision through at least a feat or alternate racial. are humans and halflings. most of the races with low light vision, can trade it for darkvision by taking an alternate racial, or can take a feat to get it.
Actually, right now I am running a group composed entirely of darkvision types, and all have class access to Stealth. The worst out of the group is the Fighter at 6, the rest being 9, and the Rogue at 20 (they are 3rd level).
They dungeon crawl mostly, so the darkvision and Stealth really helps. Oh, and just in case one of them wants longer range darkvision, I think there's a feat that grants 120 if your race already has 60.
Only human "in" the group is the npc cook/driver without darkvision, and he doesn't fight or come along on their dungeon crawls if he can at all help it. Otherwise he just stays in the back, wisecracking and holding on to somebody's shoulder.
Piccolo you are trying way to hard to force a frankly misguided opinion. I know exactly what diplomacy does word for word. Manipulating NPCs is not a aspect of a great deal of builds and when it is magic does it better (Nothing new here magic trumps most skills.)
Darkvision is unimportant because the sneaky classes are are sadly subpar. Sure its great for them and I heck more power to anyone that wants to play a rogue because don;t let anyone tell you how to have fun. Still its another not necessary thing and can be done without. That and of course magic can replace darkvision.
A feat though. Feats are key to EVERY build, to every aspect of the game (combat, social, magic, crafting and anything else I forgot to list.) and pretty much all these traits can be replaced with gold and/or magic. Feats can't. (unless you are half-elf but this thread is not about half-elves.)
I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with "sneaky classes being sadly subpar". That is not a factual statement, it is instead purely YOUR opinion. Don't try to pass it off as fact.
Diplomacy is quite literally what makes the world go 'round, socially speaking. The power to talk your opponents into seeing the light is a potent one. I am not saying it is The One Skill To Rule Them All, but it IS damned handy.
Brute force approaches like always using magic tend to fail at inopportune moments. They can always be countered by some other bit of hocus pocus. Diplomacy, however, lasts.
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I've never really felt that Aasimar were overpowered. I think people frequently underestimate the abilities of core races. I don't know how many times I've thought about building an Aasimar character and ended up going human instead because the skill bonuses and extra feat were just too good to pass up. Aasimar tacks some nifty abilities on to a build. Humans actually make builds advance/ become more viable/ become better rounded, etc.
I think Aasimar may have an edge for players with low system mastery, but anyone with the full array of Core products and a certain level of system mastery can easily eke as much or more out of the base races.
I've never really felt that Aasimar were overpowered. I think people frequently underestimate the abilities of core races. I don't know how many times I've thought about building an Aasimar character and ended up going human instead because the skill bonuses and extra feat were just too good to pass up. Aasimar tacks some nifty abilities on to a build. Humans actually make builds advance/ become more viable/ become better rounded, etc.
I think Aasimar may have an edge for players with low system mastery, but anyone with the full array of Core products and a certain level of system mastery can easily eke as much or more out of the base races.
the way to imagine the aasimaar crutch for players with low system mastery is to think of fire emblem.
almost every fire emblem game give you a free overpowered paladin in the beginning. whether it is Titania or even Jagen.
you can choose to rely on the paladin, which will cause a very slow to nonexistant growth for the rest of your party
or you can choose to ween yourself off of the paladin and learn creative uses for your weaker units. as the game intended.
another way to look at it
is a chess player whom depends too much on thier queen.
the aasimaar isn't more powerful, they are simply a crutch for newbies with low system mastery.
a human or dwarf can become far stronger.
Dunno. That extra skill point Humans get is easily bested by any race that gets +2 Intelligence. That just leaves humans with the extra feat.
I think I'd rather get racial bonuses that match my goals for my character, than a measly feat.
Dwarves are okay, especially now that they get +2 Wisdom, but they are nothing special. They make okay Druids, but I wouldn't recommend them for Clerics because of the Charisma penalty.
Never liked aasimar for Paladins, as they used to be pointed toward. They make better Clerics. That is where I disagree with Lumiere and co.
The energy resistances were a bit much, along with not having a racial penalty to an attribute compared to the other races. So they are a mite overpowered, but not to the point where I would ban them.
Dunno. That extra skill point Humans get is easily bested by any race that gets +2 Intelligence. That just leaves humans with the extra feat.
I think I'd rather get racial bonuses that match my goals for my character, than a measly feat.
Dwarves are okay, especially now that they get +2 Wisdom, but they are nothing special. They make okay Druids, but I wouldn't recommend them for Clerics because of the Charisma penalty.
Never liked aasimar for Paladins, as they used to be pointed toward. They make better Clerics. That is where I disagree with Lumiere and co.
The energy resistances were a bit much, along with not having a racial penalty to an attribute compared to the other races. So they are a mite overpowered, but not to the point where I would ban them.
a human can also get +2 intelligence, and the bonus skill point. without a constitution penalty. unlike the elf or sylph, putting the human a hit point and skill point per level ahead of them
a human can trade their bonus for for free skill focus at levels 1, 8, 15. and every 7 levels after. effectively multiplying their bonus feats by at least 2 if they ever planned to take skill focus
or the human can complete a feat chain 2 levels earlier.
a dwarf can, for a feat tax. have +4 to 80% of the saving throws they make. and the only thing a cleric needs charisma for is channel energy. channel energy is a lifesaver at the low levels, but it loses value later on.
and surviving to drop a foe a round sooner matters more than another channel energy use.
in fact, most offense focused races, tend to be quite vulnerable to an unlucky crit or failed saving throw.
the advantage of being a dwarf is, that the specific defensive increases when they apply, matter. and are often applicable. +4 to AC/CMD against a common mid level foe, +2 or 4 to 80% of the saving throws you make, and an extra HP per level, or 2HP per level above an elf.
the dwarf loses like one point of to hit and damage compared to a strength based melee race, and 1 point of social skill penalty behind a noncharisma based race.
Dunno. That extra skill point Humans get is easily bested by any race that gets +2 Intelligence. That just leaves humans with the extra feat.
I think I'd rather get racial bonuses that match my goals for my character, than a measly feat.
Dwarves are okay, especially now that they get +2 Wisdom, but they are nothing special. They make okay Druids, but I wouldn't recommend them for Clerics because of the Charisma penalty.
Never liked aasimar for Paladins, as they used to be pointed toward. They make better Clerics. That is where I disagree with Lumiere and co.
The energy resistances were a bit much, along with not having a racial penalty to an attribute compared to the other races. So they are a mite overpowered, but not to the point where I would ban them.
Aasimaar are okay channelling healbot clerics
but i would rather take that dwarven battle cleric. 2 less channels than the aasimaar? short hairy guy is hardier and more versatile than miss prissy golden hair.
miss prissy golden hair is prettier, but the short hairy guy, is hardier due to increased constitution and saving throws. has more weapons to work with, has the same racially enhanced offense, and recieves a better armor class against a common creature type.
in fact, the dwarf cleric can by dumping charisma and neglecting channel, become a better combatant than the aasimaar, because his racials don't encourage an additional focus on channeling, and provide less incentive for such.
but i would rather have the human sorcerer or oracle because of the favored class bonus.
A lifesaver at low levels? Are we playing the same game Lumi? At low levels killing the thing trying to kill your party is a lifesaver. Channel Energy just gives a slightly increased chance that the next hit won't knock out your buddy.
Now what I will give Channel Energy credit for, is saving a low level party some precious gold by helping them run through cure light wands more slowly.
that is what i mean.
but at any level, dropping the foe is especially important, unless you can relaibly bring back an ally who can drop them even faster with a greater chance of success.
i am kind scared to, but i am going to bring up hobgoblins and their +2 to dex/con up. Im curious on opinions.
i am kind scared to, but i am going to bring up hobgoblins and their +2 to dex/con up. Im curious on opinions.
2 physical stat boosts, but like the aasimaar, not much in racial abilities. hardly overpowered.
i am kind scared to, but i am going to bring up hobgoblins and their +2 to dex/con up. Im curious on opinions.
Hobgoblins are pretty cool, I've always thought.
Still far from overpowered though. Always figured they'd make a good Fighter or Monk but never played one.
Aasimar as is (in the Bestiary) are good but not jaw-droppingly awesome. Fast forward to the Advance Race Guide. Cherry pick racial traits. Slobber all over those nice Aasimar-only feats.
With the ARG Aasimar became worth those 15 RP in spades. Because of the ARG I consider it a fair trade to dock 5 points from the point buy.
Aasimar as is (in the Bestiary) are good but not jaw-droppingly awesome. Fast forward to the Advance Race Guide. Cherry pick racial traits. Slobber all over those nice Aasimar-only feats.
With the ARG Aasimar became worth those 15 RP in spades. Because of the ARG I consider it a fair trade to dock 5 points from the point buy.
Aasimaar, even in the ARG, aren't worth the 15 RP or a 5 point buy docking. even a trait docking
the feat taxes are just that, feat taxes. and the only wortwhile one grants gimped flight
the alternate racials are generally highly specialized.
scion of humanity removes the benefits of being an outsider
the resistances lose usefulness by level 2, maybe 3 or 4.
the only unique trait is 2 +2 with no -2. which isn't that powerful because it only serves to mitigate your dump stat, which you clearly dumped to gain an advantage elsewhere.
Aasimar as is (in the Bestiary) are good but not jaw-droppingly awesome. Fast forward to the Advance Race Guide. Cherry pick racial traits. Slobber all over those nice Aasimar-only feats.
With the ARG Aasimar became worth those 15 RP in spades. Because of the ARG I consider it a fair trade to dock 5 points from the point buy.
So wait
You dock 5 points from their point buy because they have the option to take some (fairly s@%@ty TBH) Aasimar only traits?
Because many other races can pick and choose their racial traits and the majority of non-core races also get +2 to two stats as well, so that's the only reason I can see.
At 15RP the aasimaar is a ripoff
just like the fetchling is at 17.
and just like the suli is at 16. the Suli pays quadruple for elemental assault.
I have to agree with Turin. Aasimars were good option pre ARG, but now they just look completely delicious to me... True, they only work well in certain classes- but they can do some pretty ridiculous things that no others can do. If I am playing a class that needs either Charisma or Wisdom, it's hard to do better than Aasimar.
Enough people have already talked about the basic perks... But, I haven't seen anyone talk about Favored Class Bonuses at all. Adding 1/2 level to a single Bard performance or Oracle Revelation is absolutely amazing.
The primary benefit to Aasimar Bards is that they can exit the Bard class early while still having full progression in their main performance (leave vanilla Bard at 13 and still have swift action +4 Inspire Courage for example).
With Oracle, it's all about boosting up that one revelation that doesn't have any caps. Oracle of Life with 17d6 channel? Oracle of Battle that has a BAB of +30 for 1 type of CM. Get an additional +4 AC Armor options available to most Oracles (eg Ancestor's Spirit Shield caps at +16 AC for Aasimars).
Or in campaigns you know won't be going to 20, you can even go after those capped Revelations without worry. Oracle of Nature has a 20th level Animal Companion at 14th level. Blow a single feat for the Aasimar only Celestial Servant, and it now has the Celestial Template complete with Resist Acid, Cold, and Electricity 15, DR 10/evil, and once a day Smite for +16 damage. (Hell, Celestial Servant alone is why Aasimars make good Druids).
And Aasimar's just have cool stuff in general. They get a 3rd level SLA that is exceptionally useful (especially against stupid society modules) that can be easily augmented with a single feat (Heavenly Radiance). Who else can take a single feat to get high level SLAs?
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As a side note, Lumiere do you really consider Resist Energy 5 to Acid, Cold, and Electricity to be useless by third level? Hell, I'd still be happy to take 5 less points of damage from a lightning bolt even at 10th level and beyond...