Daylight can be given up via Blood of Angels for a +2 to nearly any stat. It can also be used in the dungeon to dazzle nearly everyone with darkvision.Uh, that darkvision thingy is new, unless you mean to say that many races with an affinity to hang around in dungeons have light sensitivity.
And getting that +2 to one of the stats is random, a 6 out of 100 chance. You can get just as well a champion ability like being able to summon a silver holy symbol for one hour per day, which one of my players rolled up. He was less than happy about it, but that's the price for rolling the dice on big bonuses. ^^
I don't think that chart is going to be used in the way it's recommended. From what I've seen, people cherry pick what ability they get in exchange for the spell like ability lost.
Yes, most darkvision races tend to be sensitive to bright light.
Finally, while humans can be used for nearly any concept or class, they are not ideally suited to any of them. That's what the other races are for. In a game where everyone picks out what class and race they want to run, and even specializes their group roles so that there isn't much overlap between PC's, there is little to no reason to take humans as a race.
Aasimar (standard types) make the perfect classic Cleric build. Haven't yet found a single race that works as well for that class. Didn't mind them as that, when Blood of Angels isn't in play.
Moreover, with the variant versions found in Blood of Angels, they can be used for nearly every class or build. Considering that they don't have any downsides or penalties, have various potent abilities like darkvision and energy resistances etc, it means a lot of the time you are going to end up with aasimar in your group, assuming that group is familiar with the ARG and Blood of Angels. Sometimes more than just one per group.
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i think we have some rather stubborn individuals on these boards. i think instead of either side trying to convince the other, we should just agree to disagree.
or if people wish to fight, this thread should be locked.
but in my opinion, i don't beleive the missing penalty for an aasimaar is really an issue.
again, i beleive the most overpowered races, are the human and the dwarf, depending on whether you prioritize either offense or versatility, or you prioiritize non-ac defenses. the next races i see worth considering are the samsaran and the elf, both make good wizards, one poaching up to 6 foregin spells, the other getting a free stacking spell penetration, darkvision, and +2 to concentration checks. the other races tend to be more build dependent. like onispawn tieflings make awesome monks.
Aasimar (standard types) make the perfect classic Cleric build. Haven't yet found a single race that works as well for that class. Didn't mind them as that, when Blood of Angels isn't in play.Dwarf.
Low Charisma, low turning ability, thus crappier healing, and also lower Diplomacy, Intimidate, etc. Bad for Clerics.
>Darkvision and Energy Resistance 5 = Potent
Yuuuup, definitely playing different games.
Best of luck Piccolo.
Nope. Carrying around a light when it's dark does what for everyone else?
Makes you a huge target. Did you know that a cigarette can be spotted 3 miles away in the jungle?
i think we have some rather stubborn individuals on these boards. i think instead of either side trying to convince the other, we should just agree to disagree.
I'm not feeling combative. Does that help?
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Low Charisma, low turning ability, thus crappier healing, and also lower Diplomacy, Intimidate, etc. Bad for Clerics.
No reduction in speed for armor, take Travel domain and you're moving faster than the Fighter for the first few levels. Con and Wis bonuses increase your frontline capability. Good for Clerics.
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I don't think that chart is going to be used in the way it's recommended. From what I've seen, people cherry pick what ability they get in exchange for the spell like ability lost.
People misusing the material does not constitute a fault of the system.
Finally, while humans can be used for nearly any concept or class, they are not ideally suited to any of them. That's what the other races are for.
I think this starts to fall into the realm of personal interpretation as opposed to mechanical fact. I think humans are ideally suited to be fighters. The floating stat allows you to pump whichever stat is most needed for your build, the extra skill point shores up a traditional weakness, and the bonus feat allows you to have either stronger saves or really be the best there is with your particular fighting style since you can advance feat chains much faster.
I could make similar arguments for a variety of classes.I would also say that with the sole exception of Channel focused heal-bots, humans are superior clerics to aasimar.
The "classic" Cleric in Pathfinder and its D&D precedents is a guy in medium to heavy armor standing side by side with the fighter providing healing and swinging a mace. Humans are much more capable of this than Aasimar. The extra feat can allow them to use heavier armor, use their Wisdom to make their attack roles right from level 1, obviating the need for a boosted STR stat, increase the potency of their spells, etc.
The additional skill points allow them to take traditional and necessary skills like heal and diplomacy while allowing them to put points in skills they otherwise couldn't afford, like Climb.
i really don't care that a 20th level aasimaar life oracle with a phylactery of positive channeling and favored class abuse can channel 17D6. 59.5 HP. while nice out of combat, isn't so hot in combat.
lets look at what an 8th-12th level character can do.
How far are people seeing in these dark situations you're talking about?
Unless someone is gaming in the Underdark, dark adventuring is usually done in caverns/dungeons or something where at most there might be a few hundred feet and encounters would likely happen anyway.
If you're talking about at night, that's the time most people have already set up camp, and there's usually going to be a fire burning that could attract attention anyway.
Haven't found that. One nice thing about being able to see in the dark and being able to sneak is that you don't get caught with your pants proverbially down. Its what the US military does all the time.
Most of the monsters you find whilst dungeon crawling can see in the dark, and so they are well prepared once the PC group with their lanterns drop by for a visit. Meanwhile, the PC's are unaware of being surrounded.
Fires don't necessarily get lit at night, especially if you are trying to hide or sneak up on someone. That kind of thing happens a lot with PC's.
I think this starts to fall into the realm of personal interpretation as opposed to mechanical fact. I think humans are ideally suited to be fighters. The floating stat allows you to pump whichever stat is most needed for your build, the extra skill point shores up a traditional weakness, and the bonus feat allows you to have either stronger saves or really be the best there is with your particular fighting style since you can advance feat chains much faster.
I could make similar arguments for a variety of classes.
I would also say that with the sole exception of Channel focused heal-bots, humans are superior clerics to aasimar.
The "classic" Cleric in Pathfinder and its D&D precedents is a guy in medium to heavy armor standing side by side with the fighter providing healing and swinging a mace. Humans are much more capable of this than Aasimar. The extra feat can allow them to use heavier armor, use their Wisdom to make their attack roles right from level 1, obviating the need for a boosted STR stat, increase the potency of their spells, etc.
The additional skill points allow them to take traditional and necessary skills like heal and diplomacy while allowing them to put points in skills they otherwise couldn't afford, like Climb.
Any race that gets a pump for Int beats the human bonus skill point. Want it for your melee Fighter? Find a race that grants a bonus for Str and Int. You are better off than taking a human, since that race also likely grants other abilities on top of that. Want a decent cleric? Take a standard aasimar, whose primary abilities are focused on wisdom and charisma. Then enjoy the skill bennies to some of your primary skills, and the darkvision and energy resistances as well, plus immunity to Charm Person (native outsider).
i really don't care that a 20th level aasimaar life oracle with a phylactery of positive channeling and favored class abuse can channel 17D6. 59.5 HP. while nice out of combat, isn't so hot in combat.
lets look at what an 8th-12th level character can do.
I tend to look at 1-5th level characters, since most campaigns don't last into the double digits. BTW, that's more than a year of playing once a week every week from first level.
Humans are to powerful.
Fighters are fine.
I'm beginning to see a pattern here...
One of the things I thought was particularly silly in threads that complain that Fighters suck is that those same people also state that humans in game are all that and a bag of chips. Really, humans just get an extra feat and skill point. Most people I know of who pick one just want the extra feat, and that's what Fighters are all about.
Kinda a contradiction in terms, imo. Can't hate the Fighter for just having feats and love "humans" for having the same.
we play once a week for 4-7 hours a session. depending on whether you count RP and preparation.
we do typically start first level, but we do milestone/chapter leveling.
XP total isn't what matters, it's how many milestones you accomplished in game.
some characters start higher, some start lower. mostly a matter of whether the character is a wisened military vetaran like Jagen or a young and inexperienced prince like Marth.
while you can find a 10th level character who still bears the title of apprentice due to their young age and lack of maturity.
that 10th level character is more likely to be a seasoned veteran with at least half a decade of constant adventuring experience or constant career military service under his belt. not counting time spent resting, crafting or engaging in menial activity. a decade or more such constant high risk experience is most likely and most of the 15+ NPCs tend to be of long lived races such as dwarves, planetouched, or elves.
a 20th level child prodigy is occasionally included as a joke. but it is usually handwaved with an immortal species or extraplanar assistance.
sometimes, we can reach a milestone in 2-3 sessions, or we can reach 2 milestones in one session, or not reach one for 8 weeks.
while planning for 4th level or 8th level is fine, we typically don't worry about 13th through 15th except in an AP adaption.
the issue isn't planning for 4th-8th. and surviving isn't the issue either. it is more like can you find a way to compensate for all the penalties that are hindering your ability?
there are 2 means to fix a permanent penalty
whine and find a means to get it fixed early, reduced penalty or net equivalancy. depending on solution
or deal with the penalty for 2-4, maybe more milestones and earn a boon that gives you a bonus your normally wouldn't recieve.
for example, a perma blinded character who opts to suck up the blindness for 4 levels or more, without excessive complaining, who respects the almighty jerk DM, earns full blindsight when the DM feels it appropriate.
No offense to you Lumiere, but your GM sounds like a sadist.
Weekly William is one of those old school jerkwad sadists with a power trip, excessive ego, and a bias towards those who accept his power rather than challenge his authority.
a long dead era i unfortunately still have to deal with.
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I tend to look at 1-5th level characters, since most campaigns don't last into the double digits. BTW, that's more than a year of playing once a week every week from first level.i really don't care that a 20th level aasimaar life oracle with a phylactery of positive channeling and favored class abuse can channel 17D6. 59.5 HP. while nice out of combat, isn't so hot in combat.
lets look at what an 8th-12th level character can do.
A year of playing every other week...sometimes less due to holiday or other events and we finish an AP...which is 1-16ish. Not getting double digits playing a year every week (52 sessions) seems...well off. You certainly may not be playing the same game that most of us have a common reference with if this is the case.
I tend to look at 1-5th level characters, since most campaigns don't last into the double digits. BTW, that's more than a year of playing once a week every week from first level.
Ehm...no it isn't. Maybe for your games, but it's not the norm. Using the base medium EXP track it should only be taking 3-4 months of playing every week to get to 5th level.
Hell let's do the math on our Serpent's Skull game here. We're 7th level (almost 8th as of last session, I put it at one more before leveling) and we only started playing around the middle of last September or so.
Now I know we got a bit of extra EXP from stumbling across encounters well over our APL on Smuggler's Shiv but that still puts us at at least level 5 within 6 months, and for the past TWO months we've only had like 3 SS sessions since I'm running Carrion Crown for the same group so the SS GM can play on the off weeks when he's too swamped during the week to prepare stuff. They're level 6 already but that doesn't count since I put 'em on the fast track for the first 4 levels so we wouldn't be bumping back to level 1 for so long so soon.
I tend to look at 1-5th level characters, since most campaigns don't last into the double digits. BTW, that's more than a year of playing once a week every week from first level.Ehm...no it isn't. Maybe for your games, but it's not the norm. Using the base medium EXP track it should only be taking 3-4 months of playing every week to get to 5th level.
Hell let's do the math on our Serpent's Skull game here. We're 7th level (almost 8th as of last session, I put it at one more before leveling) and we only started playing around the middle of last September or so.
Now I know we got a bit of extra EXP from stumbling across encounters well over our APL on Smuggler's Shiv but that still puts us at at least level 5 within 6 months, and for the past TWO months we've only had like 3 SS sessions since I'm running Carrion Crown for the same group so the SS GM can play on the off weeks when he's too swamped during the week to prepare stuff. They're level 6 already but that doesn't count since I put 'em on the fast track for the first 4 levels so we wouldn't be bumping back to level 1 for so long so soon.
Yeah, but some GM's feel the need to level their players up slowly...like mine...even when we were playing every other week, by my math, it'd take us over a year to reach level five (I think my math was a bit over thirteen months to reach fifth level, and that's without factoring in people going out of town, or just being busy and having to skip a week)...Naturally, when I mentioned this to him, his response was 'so?'
Kinda a shame that I don't know where to kind a good Pathfinder GM around here...
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Any race that gets a pump for Int beats the human bonus skill point. Want it for your melee Fighter? Find a race that grants a bonus for Str and Int. You are better off than taking a human, since that race also likely grants other abilities on top of that.
Give me an example. Stop throwing out imaginary races that can't be directly measured against, and actually prove your point by giving a solid example of this STR and INT race whose abilities are better than a human.
Want a decent cleric? Take a standard aasimar, whose primary abilities are focused on wisdom and charisma. Then enjoy the skill bennies to some of your primary skills, and the darkvision and energy resistances as well, plus immunity to Charm Person
That's your idea of a decent cleric. Maybe my idea of a decent cleric is a guy wearing full plate covering the fighters back, and able to benefit from spells like Enlarge Person, so that the fights get wrapped up quicker and the party burns less resources overall.
Amusingly enough, that's not just my idea of a decent cleric, that's the guy who will be a flat out mathematically superior option for the party. And the Aasimars bonus skills? +2 to diplomacy and perception, for a total benefit of +4, right? At first level I have 1 more skill point as a human, that's one more class skill with a rank in it, so there's +3 to the human. The next level I get another bonus skill point, so if I take another class skill you couldn't afford I'm now 2 up on you. Round about level they could be even on class skills, but my bonus puts me ahead of the curve again.For someone who's making "it's not a video game" and "in a real game" comments, you seem to be the one who's ignoring the finer aspects of the game. Feats and Skills aren't flashy, but they're mechanically every bit as bit as good as conditional racial buffs.
The other Core races compete solidly as well. Elves with their racial Weapon proficiency, bonus to Perception, immunity to magic sleep effects and bonus vs. enchantment effects, not to mention low-light vision; Dwarves who also get Darkvision, as well as a substantial defensive bonus vs. giants, attack bonuses vs. some of the most common lower level monsters, various conditional skill bonuses, and proficiencies with potent weapons that would otherwise cost a feat to use....
I can go on, but there are few instances where the Aasimar actually has any true mechanical superiority vs. any other core race over the course of the day. This translates into an adventuring day where an Aasimar literally contributes exactly as much and handles exactly as many scenarios effectively as anybody else, no more and no less.
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Low Charisma, low turning ability, thus crappier healing, and also lower Diplomacy, Intimidate, etc. Bad for Clerics.Aasimar (standard types) make the perfect classic Cleric build. Haven't yet found a single race that works as well for that class. Didn't mind them as that, when Blood of Angels isn't in play.Dwarf.
Only for your idea of a cleric. Not every cleric needs to be a high Charisma party face. Channel Energy is pretty much the least potent of a clerics abilities. A dwarven cleric is tougher, can wear heavier armor without impacting his base speed, has bonuses to various useful skills (Stonecunning is an excellent ability for a character who already has a high Wisdom) and is more combat focused with better weapons and various defensive and offensive bonuses, making him better at standing at the front of the party beside the fighter or paladin shielding the squishier party members while strengthening and healing them with the power of his faith. That's classic clericy goodness right there, and the dwarf is just as good, better really, at that kind of cleric'ing as any other race.
Maybe the Aasimar got in an extra d6 of healing after the fight thanks to his extra use of Channel Energy. But the dwarfs defensive abilities and capabilities to stand right at the front can easily prevent that damage from ever occuring to begin with.
Humans can get an int bonus AND the extra skill point, so any claims that an int boost beats the bonus skill point fall flat.
Nope, that's a flimsy statement in of itself. That human bonus to one attribute is beaten out by every other race that ends up getting at least a total of +4 to attributes, and a -2 to an attribute. Humans don't HAVE to put that floating bonus to an attribute into Int, that is, unless they happen to be a Int based spellcaster (and then it's just recommended).
A year of playing every other week...sometimes less due to holiday or other events and we finish an AP...which is 1-16ish. Not getting double digits playing a year every week (52 sessions) seems...well off. You certainly may not be playing the same game that most of us have a common reference with if this is the case.I tend to look at 1-5th level characters, since most campaigns don't last into the double digits. BTW, that's more than a year of playing once a week every week from first level.i really don't care that a 20th level aasimaar life oracle with a phylactery of positive channeling and favored class abuse can channel 17D6. 59.5 HP. while nice out of combat, isn't so hot in combat.
lets look at what an 8th-12th level character can do.
You misunderstood. I was talking about it taking approximate a year to get to 10th level, and it takes that long when you factor in people having holidays and things they can't get out of, which obviously you didn't think of.
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Humans can get an int bonus AND the extra skill point, so any claims that an int boost beats the bonus skill point fall flat.Nope, that's a flimsy statement in of itself. That human bonus to one attribute is beaten out by every other race that ends up getting at least a total of +4 to attributes, and a -2 to an attribute. Humans don't HAVE to put that floating bonus to an attribute into Int, that is, unless they happen to be a Int based spellcaster (and then it's just recommended).
That statement is non-sensical. A +2 to one stat with no negative is exactly equivalent to two +2's and a -2.
Most parties don't have much of a Charisma score to speak of, except in Clerics, Paladins and Sorcerers (possibly Bards). Of those, only a Cleric is routinely in the party.
Usually, in order to be able to handle a variety of challenges, your typical party of 4 consists of a Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, and Wizard, or variants of those 4 roles (Paladin, Ranger, Druid, Bard, Sorcerer etc).
Since mechanically Charisma is the weakest attribute for most classes, it is usually a dump stat. Wish it wasn't, as I happen to like a high Cha in the party as a DM.
Having a Cleric with a high Charisma is one of the few classes where doing so makes sense.
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Most parties don't have much of a Charisma score to speak of, except in Clerics, Paladins and Sorcerers (possibly Bards). Of those, only a Cleric is routinely in the party.
Usually, in order to be able to handle a variety of challenges, your typical party of 4 consists of a Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, and Wizard, or variants of those 4 roles (Paladin, Ranger, Druid, Bard, Sorcerer etc).
Since mechanically Charisma is the weakest attribute for most classes, it is usually a dump stat. Wish it wasn't, as I happen to like a high Cha in the party as a DM.
Having a Cleric with a high Charisma is one of the few classes where doing so makes sense.
Pathfinder classes where Charisma is a primary stat:
BardPaladin
Sorcerer
Oracle
Summoner
Pathfinder Classes where Charisma is a secondary stat:
Cleric
Rogue (build-dependent)
Cavalier
There are 17 classes in Pathfinder. Of those, 5 are more dependent on CHA than the cleric and likely to have a higher CHA score. These classes cover every major party role. Rogues built to be the party face and Cavaliers with CHA focused orders like the Star or Lion will likely have CHA scores as good as or better than the clerics.
That means that better than 1/3 of the options out there are just as capable or more capable of covering CHA based skills as the Cleric. Of the seven other classes who utilize CHA, all but the Sorcerer, Paladin, and Summoner gain more skills per level than the Cleric.
A world where a party's only option for party face was the cleric hasn't existed for several editions now. The cleric isn't even close to being the best party face, and has far less reason to pump CHA than nearly every other class with CHA-based abilities.
So, if your only requirement for a cleric is that he be able to spam one of his least useful abilities an extra time per day and see in the dark while pouring all of his limited skill points into Diplomacy, sure, Aasimar is the best. But by any other metric they're just meeting the bar.
Aaismar are little on the underpowered side without blood of angels. I've never seen anyone take one, because the other races are just better, maybe that will change with blood of angels.
Humans are pretty much the best race, forget baseline, you know they are slightly overpowered when no matter what the class, humans are either the first or second best choice.
Samsarans are the most powerful for the casters.
Dwarves are also pretty powerful.
Half-orcs after the ARG are now at the level of Humans and dwarves.
Aaismers are pretty pointless without blood of angels, with blood of angels they are just a little below humans.
The free bonus feat, or the three skill focus feats, or the heart of " ", are so varied. if anything it's humans not assimars that need to be tone down a tad, but then again it's suppose to be a human world, so it makes sense they are the most powerful race.
Samsarans can cherry pick additional spells from other classes lists. they still have to prepare or know these spells to use them.
the human not only gets the best favored class bonus for sorcerers and oracles, they can also take a feat to gain access to paragon surge without being a half elf.
humans also get focused study
which can augment a useful 1-3 skills, or qualify for eldritch heritage. which you would be doing anyway with skill focus.
Samsarans can cherry pick additional spells from other classes lists. they still have to prepare or know these spells to use them.
the human not only gets the best favored class bonus for sorcerers and oracles, they can also take a feat to gain access to paragon surge without being a half elf.
humans also get focused study
which can augment a useful 1-3 skills, or qualify for eldritch heritage. which you would be doing anyway with skill focus.
this is not a serious discussion, nothing you listed equals a wizard who can cast raise, dead, or the cure spells, or abuses the summoner list.
if you are a witch its even more amazing, a witch with the bard spell list is incredible, cure spells, slow, good hope, silence, just pure awesome.
a cleric or oracle with paladin spells. sorry this one is not close, Samsaran period absolute best race for any caster, period. The important thing to have as a caster is versitilty, being able to pick the 5 or so best spells that you don't normally have, trumps any ability or skill you listed.
humans are a close second, no dobut, and its very close for sorcerors and oracles, but not really that close. more spells are nice, but getting chose better spells, is better.
Only for your idea of a cleric. Not every cleric needs to be a high Charisma party face. Channel Energy is pretty much the least potent of a clerics abilities. A dwarven cleric is tougher, can wear heavier armor without impacting his base speed,
That's a common misconception with Dwarves. It's not that they can wear heavy armor without penalties. It's that they get the penalties even when they use light or no armor.
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Only for your idea of a cleric. Not every cleric needs to be a high Charisma party face. Channel Energy is pretty much the least potent of a clerics abilities. A dwarven cleric is tougher, can wear heavier armor without impacting his base speed,That's a common misconception with Dwarves. It's not that they can wear heavy armor without penalties. It's that they get the penalties even when they use light or no armor.
Note I said "base speed". A dwarf's base speed is 20. It will be 20 regardless of what gear he wears or if I give him the heavy pack to carry. Conversely, if I slap a gnome in heavy armor, he's down to about 3 squares a round. Dwarves are naturally slower than other medium creatures, but they don't take a hit for piling extra gear or heavy armor on top of it. Matches up with what I said nicely.