I think more than once the problem is easily solved with an event next time just dont alow it to travle this far.. first of all check to see if the imp truely is redeemable, decide this for yourself as the DM and then alow the fighter to see this by counceling other NPC's if it is or let the oracle see the evil of the imp if he isnt. and your problem is fixed, if you would like to have chance decide if the imp can or canot be redeemded make a dice game out of it !
Sounds like it worked out in the end. My compliments to the Oracle player for actively defusing the situation herself.
This all sounded like a case of accidental favoritism.
You know even though you didn't intend to favor the oracle you did give her a special personal evil devil NPC. Something no one else was going to get. And since it was evil there was huge potential to turn out bad for the rest of the group. Now the fighter may have been overly dramatic in trying to stop it but I empathize with her if she sees favoritism. Favoritism is a very bad thing. Sometimes when you have been hurt by a bad thing you over react to it in future encounters. Fighter player didn't handle this well but I think her motivation was honest enough, she didn't want the game ruined. Her fears were real even if what you intended was not what she saw happening at all. The responsibility here was for YOU to defuse the situation either by explaining OOC that this Imp was going to do it's level best to turn the oracle evil and that no favoritism was being used or by removing the imp yourself. Sometimes it's worth it to show your GM cards if it means earning a players trust.
Yeah, I hear you :( I also feel she got dramatic about it but UNDERSTAND ENTIRELY why, and feel really rotten that something I did ended up causing her to fear such a thing was happening AGAIN! Heck, I invited her to join our group SPECIFICALLY cuz she'd tell me about how awful her old group was (They had constant PvP and it was a huge mess and the DM was awful and bleeeeeh).
Plus its not like I've never been in a situation as a player where I over-reacted or accidentally let OOC concerns get the better of me u.u; That's prolly not a real flattering thing for me to admit about my self, but it's the truth and I've been working very hard to avoid repeating it.I'm gonna sit down with her privately after the oracle reveals her intentions to retcon. Talk it out and hope I can help calm her fears :<
To the OP
well i hope the situation gets settled in the least destructive and most pleasnt way it can for both players and u. Its tough to be a DM and even more so when players bring in bad experences from there past. Its life but with experience and patience u will be able to better prepare for a situation like this again if it ever rears its ugly head. For now all u can do is let thing play out as it may.Good luck and best of wishes.
D'aaaw, thank you kindly for the well wishes C:> Fingers crossed, eh?
I cant remember it's been so long but I think my party either let the Imp go or left in it's cage, I recall zero interaction with it after the whole royal rumble in the casino and finding the funny elf in the dungeon below.
Congrats MuseAmused, it sounds like you did an excellent job of resolving an awkward situation. It sounds like you have a good group, I wish you a successful AP!
Eheh, I think the credit should go more to my Oracle's player than to me, but still! C: Thank you very much, they really are a good bunch *hugs them all*
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To the OP. It's too bad the poor Imp had to go. I am quite sure he could have tempted the Oracle with a very nice PrC which seems just tailored for this duo : the Diabolist (complete with his Imp companion)
Grayfeather: As I explained, I removed your post and the direct responses to it, except for the OP's post saying this is not a male vs. female thing with her group. If you feel I missed one that was in that vein, you are free to PM me about it. As far as posting in this thread goes, however, please move on.
Once again, I don't do victim blaming.
Sure you do, you are just defining your victim differently than others. I define the victims as the ones who are being threatened by the abrasive fighter.
That people keep blaming the LG characters player for actually sticking to her alignment by a.) leaving the party and b.) trying to save the Oracle from himself by slaying the evil fiend is really boggling my mind. I guess reflexive "Paladin blaming" is more fun.
What about the Neutral player sticking to their alignment? It seems the there is only one character you care about. I don't think most people have a problem with the fighter leaving the party, but is clear the fighter has no desire to save the oracle but rather flex her righteous indignation; otherwise she wouldn't be trying to kill the imp before she left, suggesting metagaming knowledge to future characters, and crying about always being marginalized because of her alignment......that she is pushing on others.
Sounds like it worked out in the end. My compliments to the Oracle player for actively defusing the situation herself.
This all sounded like a case of accidental favoritism.
You know even though you didn't intend to favor the oracle you did give her a special personal evil devil NPC. Something no one else was going to get. And since it was evil there was huge potential to turn out bad for the rest of the group. Now the fighter may have been overly dramatic in trying to stop it but I empathize with her if she sees favoritism. Favoritism is a very bad thing. Sometimes when you have been hurt by a bad thing you over react to it in future encounters. Fighter player didn't handle this well but I think her motivation was honest enough, she didn't want the game ruined. Her fears were real even if what you intended was not what she saw happening at all. The responsibility here was for YOU to defuse the situation either by explaining OOC that this Imp was going to do it's level best to turn the oracle evil and that no favoritism was being used or by removing the imp yourself. Sometimes it's worth it to show your GM cards if it means earning a players trust.Yeah, I hear you :( I also feel she got dramatic about it but UNDERSTAND ENTIRELY why, and feel really rotten that something I did ended up causing her to fear such a thing was happening AGAIN! Heck, I invited her to join our group SPECIFICALLY cuz she'd tell me about how awful her old group was (They had constant PvP and it was a huge mess and the DM was awful and bleeeeeh).
Plus its not like I've never been in a situation as a player where I over-reacted or accidentally let OOC concerns get the better of me u.u; That's prolly not a real flattering thing for me to admit about my self, but it's the truth and I've been working very hard to avoid repeating it.I'm gonna sit down with her privately after the oracle reveals her intentions to retcon. Talk it out and hope I can help calm her fears :<
It might be worth mentioning to her that making all other players conform to her alignment may lead to PvP, it seems like she is the common denominator in these stories.
I define the victims as the ones who are being threatened by the abrasive fighter.So, the imp?
:) I almost mentioned the imp also and erased it, I thought it might open a can of worms. But the Oracle is being threatened as well. "You abandon those you care about or I am going to make this suck for you and everyone around you." And to the DM "You give my alignment priority over other alignments or I will make this suck for you and everyone around you."
It is the out of character threats that I see much more damning here. If I were playing a character that was claiming moral outrage by the situation, I would do it strictly in character and without trying to gain any out of character leverage. If it started to feel tense, I would make it known, "I as a person do not care what story lines you wish to pursue, my arguments are roleplay only." The fighter did the opposite of this.
This actually reminds me of an evangelical cleric of Groetus I played for a few PFS games, he would get very outraged anytime one of our party members saved anything from dying, but when it became clear that one of the other players was taking it personally out of character, I explained my god to her and even told her mechanically how I was built and that if she was needing to save a bleeding person her healing was going to trump my damage every time. It didn't stop my character from talking crap about her for undoing what I was calling a good thing, but it was strictly in character. Once that was clear, tension disappeared.
Is it common knowledge the oracle made a deal (in game)?
I mean did she just wander on over to the fellas and say "guess what guys I struck me a deal with the dev... erm this cute little scaly guy!"
1) she knowingly entered an infernal contract
2) she outwardly intends to "redeem" Mr. Scales
seems that she is lying through her teeth, OR perhaps the player is confused as to what transpired.
Either way I'm with the DM as far as "cool let's see where this goes" however, I definitely would have disguised the Imp, and not just hung around in devil form.
What did the Oracle get by making the deal? Yes, I'll be your friend? That seems very lopsided....and foolish.
Once again, I don't do victim blaming.Sure you do, you are just defining your victim differently than others. I define the victims as the ones who are being threatened by the abrasive fighter.
What about the Neutral player sticking to their alignment? It seems the there is only one character you care about. I don't think most people have a problem with the fighter leaving the party, but is clear the fighter has no desire to save the oracle but rather flex her righteous indignation; otherwise she wouldn't be trying to kill the imp before she left, suggesting metagaming knowledge to future characters, and crying about always being marginalized because of her alignment......that she is pushing on others.
That people keep blaming the LG characters player for actually sticking to her alignment by a.) leaving the party and b.) trying to save the Oracle from himself by slaying the evil fiend is really boggling my mind. I guess reflexive "Paladin blaming" is more fun.
OP Here!
Whoop, gonna step in and correct something: I'd actually say the Fighter's character cares a WHOLE LOT about the Oracle, since he expressly told the Oracle he wanted the imp gone because he couldn't stand to see the Oracle potentially get corrupted. He hadn't had a huge problem with it before, because it hadn't done anything actively evil, but now it's gone too far (although he always disliked the thing). His choice to leave was because he couldn't stand to see it, and his choice to kill the imp before he left was to try and save the oracle even while leaving... Yeah not exactly the most straight forward logic vov But i DO get it, kinda.
Man I feel like I'm adding in all these extra details, but I can be long winded and didn't want my original post bogged down by the minutia of inter-character relationships?
BASICALLY:
Oracle and his twin sis (a rogue) are orphaned teenaged Fetchlings (which, since they age like half-elves, means he's even younger than he seems).
The Fighter's entire character concept revolves in part on the fact he's been an absentee parent to his daughter, the party's alchemist, and he's returned at the start of the campaign to try and reconnect with her. Being paternal and such is a very large part of his character.
So it's not that the fighter is flexing "righteous indignation", its that he views this fetchling kid as a sort of semi-adoptive-son-figure and is worried about him AS A PARENT. Is he being overly stubborn and sorta silly about it? Sure, but so does any parent that gets overly worried about their kids (oh my god I can't imagine my mom if she thought I were into drugs or something... She raises worries enough about D&D ;D)
This is aside from any OOC issues, because i DO think on a lot of levels she was playing her character straight. Iiiiiii wish that didn't involve quite the level of STUBBORNNESS, but he DOES have all of 7 cha, so I'unno XT
Also the "LN" thing with the oracle is... Well, we play pretty fast and loose with character alignments, we might AIM for something, but ultimately I won't force my players to pick an alignment unless something comes up that DEMANDS it, and even then we often leave it to the DM to decide based on the character's past actions! The system just ain't nuanced enough for our comfort! I'm comfy calling the Fighter "good", but wasn't sure what to call the oracle... having read people's posts, it mighta been better to say the character was True Neutral. The player herself never defined an alignment, beyond jokingly saying "True Reasonable".
Basically, in our games, you let your actions determine your alignment, rather than the other way around, and the DM has final say in what they think you are. If there isn't a mechanical NEED to define an alignment, the players usually won't, beyond maybe stating their "goal" alignment.
OP Here!
Whoop, gonna step in and correct something: I'd actually say the Fighter's character cares a WHOLE LOT about the Oracle, since he expressly told the Oracle he wanted the imp gone because he couldn't stand to see the Oracle potentially get corrupted. He hadn't had a huge problem with it before, because it hadn't done anything actively evil, but now it's gone too far (although he always disliked the thing). His choice to leave was because he couldn't stand to see it, and his choice to kill the imp before he left was to try and save the oracle even while leaving... Yeah not exactly the most straight forward logic vov But i DO get it, kinda.
Man I feel like I'm adding in all these extra details, but I can be long winded and didn't want my original post bogged down by the minutia of inter-character relationships?
BASICALLY:
Oracle and his twin sis (a rogue) are orphaned teenaged Fetchlings (which, since they age like half-elves, means he's...
I added a bit to my last post after you quoted it. If the fighter was keeping this all in character, I don't even see any reason that person has to leave. I don't even know if I would fault the player if she just attacked it without anyone else's consent, at least that could be sold as in character. It is all the out of character statements and demands that make me see this player in a bad light. In light of those, the in-character reasons just feel like excuses.
Is it common knowledge the oracle made a deal (in game)?
I mean did she just wander on over to the fellas and say "guess what guys I struck me a deal with the dev... erm this cute little scaly guy!"
1) she knowingly entered an infernal contract
2) she outwardly intends to "redeem" Mr. Scalesseems that she is lying through her teeth, OR perhaps the player is confused as to what transpired.
Either way I'm with the DM as far as "cool let's see where this goes" however, I definitely would have disguised the Imp, and not just hung around in devil form.
What did the Oracle get by making the deal? Yes, I'll be your friend? That seems very lopsided....and foolish.
Yes and no. Some of the exact details are only known by the Oracle's twin sister, but he did announce to the party as a whole that he "purchased Scratch's contract from Saul". BEFORE then, he'd convinced Scratch-And-Bite-At-Night (the imp) to aid them in various things, with the help of Saul poking it and going "I order you to, you work for me".
The oracle is very interested in diplomacy and also found Scratch rather charming (I ended up playing him as this snarky little a#!*+!!, which I have been told turned out to make him really "funny"? I always thought I was playing him like a slimey insurance dealer or something, personally :B).
The oracle is also kind of naive and had spent part of his life under the mistaken assumption he was a tiefling (he was actually a fetchling, which isn't well known a race in Riddleport).
So I think there was some additional affinity there?
The oracle's main benefit of the deal was that the imp would serve him with all its powers and do as commanded. Be his servant, basically.
It was all foolish as can be. My eyebrows were practically flying away, I had them raised so high.
I AM going to double check that the PLAYER realizes Scratch is an evil little jerk. I thought it was obvious but it may not have been whoops...
Wow. Fighter bringing paladin drama.
just sayin......
we play alignment similarly. We you get to 5th level you are told what alignment you have earned by the DM, until then you just play the feel of your character. Of course certain restrictions apply based on class and worship etc.
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Wow. Fighter bringing paladin drama.
just sayin......
I know right lol.
I find it some what comical at this point. But suposedly the choices are made of what the players do so all we can do is wait and see.
@MuseAmused
I do find it funny about ur mother's concern with u playing D&D. At least its not like back in the old days when D&D 1st came about were every1 thought it to be devil worship.
Wow. Fighter bringing paladin drama.
just sayin......I know right lol.
I find it some what comical at this point. But suposedly the choices are made of what the players do so all we can do is wait and see.
@MuseAmused
I do find it funny about ur mother's concern with u playing D&D. At least its not like back in the old days when D&D 1st came about were every1 thought it to be devil worship.
Hehe, well its not reeeeeally like that (I explained THAT silliness away a loooong time ago). It's more that she'll overhear me freaking out when I DONE GOOFED as a player, or me fretting over a character being in danger. And she's all "Are you actually having FUN??"
I tried explaining to her that its a dramatic tension thing but she still worries. Its nice she wants to be sure I'm actually enjoying myself tho.
Interesting discussion. I just went through this in my campaign. I'm running a home brew and the Imp was a cohort of an enemy the party had just slain. The party Bard recognized what it was and decided the Imp could be his future familiar instead. A secret meeting took place without the rest of the party knowing and a contract was signed including a "do no harm" clause which involved the Bard and the Imp, but not the rest of the party. The party Fighter went off his chair. Not the Cleric or the Oracle or the Ranger or the Monk. The Fighter. The Fighter insisted the Imp would not be allowed in the group and that he was going to slay it right then. Fortunately Imps have Telepathy and Inviso at will. To the party the Imp was all very nice and helpful and soooo sorry for all of the wrong doing of his prior master, but like Gollum, he would help this party do good things. He even changed shape to look like a cuddly baby Panda Bear for extra cuteness. Via Telepathy he blasted the Fighter and tormented him. Calling him names and threatening him if he ever went to sleep. Everything exactly the opposite of what he told the rest of the group. The party took the side of the Imp and Bard who promised the moon and stars in good behavior and benefits. The party did gain many benefits from having the Imp around as an invisible but begrudging scout. He finally got blasted out of that Plane by an opposing summoner who recognized how dangerous the Imp was to the overall "evil plan". (I'll admit I got tired of the Imp being used to do challenging things that PCs should have been doing) Give the Fighter a shot (and a good reason to take that shot. Have the Imp make a mistake.) and all will be fine in the long run.
I wouldn't be intimidated or worried about an imp with that name, and I think you missed a golden opportunity there - "bite" should have certainly been "tear".
Why? Because S.A.B.A.N. just doesn't have as nice a ring as... well, you know...
But regarding the actual topic at hand, having read everything but not commented until now, I'm glad the party has basically worked it out on their own without GM adjudication. As GM (and I assume as friend to the players involved), I'd definitely have a conversation with the fighter player to share your thoughts on the whole matter, or, as has been suggested before, point one or both players in the direction of this thread for a read.
@MuseAmused
I do find it funny about ur mother's concern with u playing D&D. At least its not like back in the old days when D&D 1st came about were every1 thought it to be devil worship.
Some people still believe that it is. For example, I was going to run a game for my nieces, but before doing so wanted to run the idea by their parents. I was told that they (my nieces) can't play because of... well... witchcraft. True story. [/end-tangent]
I rather like the fighter character's personality/background. I can't imagine said character walking out on the group, though. That seems to be the last thing a father would do... especially one that has already done so in the past. That seems to be his biggest regret. Why would he repeat it?
I hope she (your fighter's player) gets to keep her character. Would be a shame to break up such a group as has been described.
Best of luck.
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Some people still believe that it is. For example, I was going to run a game for my nieces, but before doing so wanted to run the idea by their parents. I was told that they (my nieces) can't play because of... well... witchcraft. True story. [/end-tangent]@MuseAmused
I do find it funny about ur mother's concern with u playing D&D. At least its not like back in the old days when D&D 1st came about were every1 thought it to be devil worship.
The witchcraft worry is not specifically aimed at D&D, but rather at Harry Potter. It was all the craze amidst Christian extremists when the HP movies were the kids' new passion.
Basically, Harry Potter replaced D&D as the extremists' choice target because it was the latest fad for young teens. I see it as an indication that our hobby has faded in oblivion as far as the younger generations are concerned.
I guess Twilight could be the new target these days.
I rather like the fighter character's personality/background. I can't imagine said character walking out on the group, though. That seems to be the last thing a father would do... especially one that has already done so in the past. That seems to be his biggest regret. Why would he repeat it?
Have you never repeated the exact same defining bad move / bad decision in your life ? If so, you are an exceptional human being.
To OP:
Simpliest solution is to use a Helm of Opposite Alignment on the IMP.
we play alignment similarly. We you get to 5th level you are told what alignment you have earned by the DM, until then you just play the feel of your character. Of course certain restrictions apply based on class and worship etc.
Very interesting way to deal with Alignment. However I believe it depends on other factors other than just your PC's level. How your PC was raised, age, race, and other factors can affect alignment WAY more than just level.
For Example...
I'm playing a Female Gnome Druid in the Jade Regent AP and just hit 10th level (been playing over a year now in real life)...
My starting age for my Gnome was 85 ( I rolled really bad... plus Druids take alot of time I guess to get to level 1)...infact it took my character 45 years to from apprentice to Level 1 Druid.
45 Years to get to level 1. Character started her training when she was 40 years old and now currently 85 years old. Think about that. Most Human lifespans do not even come close to that. And in one year game time I hit level 1 to level 10.
I had to imagine and make my character's life and how she grew up. Infact my character's childhood was Choatic until she was toned down by the NPC Shalelu from Jade Regent and turned into Neutral Good (she has the pyromaniac racial ability for Gnomes).
While I applaud your group's way of attaining alignment I do not think it would work for all groups or certain classes. I do believe alignment should be a tool and not a straight jacket (unless you are a Paladin of course). Backstory and your character's background are just as important as your adventuring career when determining your alignment.
Since this already had a happy conclusion, my posting here is entirely unnecessary.
However I felt the need to chime in and say my piece, after having watched this thread move on.
I applaud MuseAmused for her gamemastery. You did a fine job with the material given to you, picking up on your oracle player's wish to expand on the story in her own way, and rolling with it. It is unfortunate that the character of the fighter mixed poorly with these events, but conflicts in the party help shape characters.
I would usually see the events that transpired as a good thing from a roleplaying perspective, however, what you described with the fighter's player and her former gamemaster, adds a sour taste to it all. I hope that your dedication to solving this matter, and your respect for your players as well as your own role as gamemaster, will help the fighter's player be more at ease with these kinds of situations. Good luck with the campaign.
-Nearyn
The witchcraft worry is not specifically aimed at D&D...
In my case, it was.
Have you never repeated the exact same defining bad move / bad decision in your life ? If so, you are an exceptional human being.
I think you took something I said personally. My point was that this character's major motivation is to reconnect with his daughter, whom he had previously abandoned. I doubt very much that such a character would knowingly leave his daughter (again), especially during a dangerous adventure. He's going to want to protect her, and the others (whom he feels a paternal responsibility for). It just doesn't seem to be in-character.