You need to find a reason decide between the two days apart from which of the two players will be excluded. Are you, or anyone else, more likely to have conflicts that will cause the occasional cancel on either day? Is either day better if the session runs longer than planned? Look for reasons like this to decide it, makes it less personal to the unlucky one who misses out.
Weeeelll... it's a choice between Monday and Tuesday.
the person who can't play mondays ("D") is a coworker... And is a manager. He's a chill guy who probably wouldn't hold it against me AT WORK, but it'd be... Awkward.
HOWEVER, he said from the beginning that he'd be an occasional player... But he seems to be getting more excited about it?
the person who can't play tuesdays ("T") is dating another player, AND was the first person I invited to my game.
D works afternoons on Monday, so there's still the potential of him joining in on the second half of the game after work... As opposed to T, who has to LEAVE for work at the only time the others would be available...
... I guess it looks like I should talk to D, ask him how he'd feel about potentially coming to half-game?
I'm going to be running my first game in several years. I've got my five players, I've got supplies and a location, I have a homebrew adventure Path cobbled together from various Paizo materials... We're almost ready to go!
And I've realized I've made a very, very crucial error: I didn't check people's schedules until now.
Yeah, I know. Rookie mistake.
Lo and behold, the schedules don't really line up! Or rather, I've got a few days were MOST PEOPLE'S schedules line up, but... There's always an odd one out.
I've managed to find two different days where 5/6 of us could show... But it's a different person depending on the day, and looks like I have no choice but to choose one of them to boot from the game.
So... Does anyone have advice on how you pick which of your friends you have to let down? There's additional interpersonal issues, but the core of it, is I have no idea how to make this decision.
... Or how to break the news to the friend I end up picking to leave out @_@;;
An individual Akata wasn't too much of a threat when I ran this, but the horde of them, seemingly never-ending, was quite difficult. Plus they need some spare hp to survive ... what happens next.
Depends on your party of course.
Well, my guys are pretty well set to handle the NEXT BITS since one has a feather fall ring, another has spider climb slippers, a third has a wand of levitate, and the last is the tank and there may even be a spiderclimb potion wandering around, SO... They oughta be able to ride that thing down the hill without TOO much trouble.
The tank is a really heavy hitter, which is one of the reasons I wanted to beef up the Akata (well, that and I want them to hit level 7 by the end of the adventure). At an average 20 dmg a hit, he'll prolly be able to take them out quick, even with a template... And that's not even bringing in the others capabilities...
Im kinda a hard core killer DM but to me it doesnt sound to bad the AKATA were kinda weak
I had them deal with a advanced tough akata around the siege also
Oh yeah? And they still took 'em out easy? Hmm, I was considering using the "Shadow Creature" template instead (same CR adjustment, but more passive defense abilities and less offense boosts). Buuuuuuuut... I guess... I could just stat up both versions, and be ready to use either one, depending on how they seem to be faring! ADAPTABILITY!
The party's offense is pretty crazy anyway, I swear the fighter does an average of 20 a hit already.
Hey all! I'm a relatively inexperienced DM, running a modified version of Second Darkness and wanted some people's opinions on a change I made, since I'm not sure if it's going to be too much for my players to handle or not.
Basically, due to plot reasons, there are two extra encounters before the party even reaches Witchlight, AND I've added the tenebrous template to the Akata after seeing people complain they were a little too easy to defeat.
What I'm trying to decide is whether or not to keep the template!
The first new encounter is a CR2 vs a Wild Boar (threatening a gas forge employee they can save). Easy peasy for a APL 4 group.
The second is a CR 3 fight almost directly after that with 2 Shadowgarms. Hopefully surprising but nothing too deadly.
After that, they reach Witchlight and have the Dead Body encounter, but face 4 shadowgarms instead of 4 void zombies, making this a CR 6 encounter.
And of course after that comes the infamous AKATA TOWER SIEGE!
I think they'll be able to handle the tower rolling ok, between a ring of feather fall, boots of spider climb, wand of levitate, etc etc, provided they don't get HIDEOUSLY unlucky.
However, with the tenebrous template attached, the Akata become CR 2 apiece, instead of CR 1.
I know this encounter isn't about defeating every single one or having to face them all at once, but with 24 potential nasties, that still ups the challenge quite a bit.
The template adds:
+2 str, +4 con, +2 cha (making their bite attack +3 and tentacles -2 and upping their HP to 19)
+6 nat ac (so a total of 21)
Bite dmg increases to 1d8 + 1d6 cold dmg
It also normally adds bristles that have contact poison, but I am choosing to leave those out.
So between adding extra fights that could have worn down their resources, no way to tell the siege is coming, and the added template, is this going to be way too likely to cause a TPK?
I find it some what comical at this point. But suposedly the choices are made of what the players do so all we can do is wait and see.
@MuseAmused
I do find it funny about ur mother's concern with u playing D&D. At least its not like back in the old days when D&D 1st came about were every1 thought it to be devil worship.
Hehe, well its not reeeeeally like that (I explained THAT silliness away a loooong time ago). It's more that she'll overhear me freaking out when I DONE GOOFED as a player, or me fretting over a character being in danger. And she's all "Are you actually having FUN??"
I tried explaining to her that its a dramatic tension thing but she still worries. Its nice she wants to be sure I'm actually enjoying myself tho.
Is it common knowledge the oracle made a deal (in game)?
I mean did she just wander on over to the fellas and say "guess what guys I struck me a deal with the dev... erm this cute little scaly guy!"
1) she knowingly entered an infernal contract
2) she outwardly intends to "redeem" Mr. Scales
seems that she is lying through her teeth, OR perhaps the player is confused as to what transpired.
Either way I'm with the DM as far as "cool let's see where this goes" however, I definitely would have disguised the Imp, and not just hung around in devil form.
What did the Oracle get by making the deal? Yes, I'll be your friend? That seems very lopsided....and foolish.
Yes and no. Some of the exact details are only known by the Oracle's twin sister, but he did announce to the party as a whole that he "purchased Scratch's contract from Saul". BEFORE then, he'd convinced Scratch-And-Bite-At-Night (the imp) to aid them in various things, with the help of Saul poking it and going "I order you to, you work for me".
The oracle is very interested in diplomacy and also found Scratch rather charming (I ended up playing him as this snarky little a&!*!!#, which I have been told turned out to make him really "funny"? I always thought I was playing him like a slimey insurance dealer or something, personally :B).
The oracle is also kind of naive and had spent part of his life under the mistaken assumption he was a tiefling (he was actually a fetchling, which isn't well known a race in Riddleport).
So I think there was some additional affinity there?
The oracle's main benefit of the deal was that the imp would serve him with all its powers and do as commanded. Be his servant, basically.
It was all foolish as can be. My eyebrows were practically flying away, I had them raised so high.
I AM going to double check that the PLAYER realizes Scratch is an evil little jerk. I thought it was obvious but it may not have been whoops...
Sure you do, you are just defining your victim differently than others. I define the victims as the ones who are being threatened by the abrasive fighter.
magnuskn wrote:
That people keep blaming the LG characters player for actually sticking to her alignment by a.) leaving the party and b.) trying to save the Oracle from himself by slaying the evil fiend is really boggling my mind. I guess reflexive "Paladin blaming" is more fun.
What about the Neutral player sticking to their alignment? It seems the there is only one character you care about. I don't think most people have a problem with the fighter leaving the party, but is clear the fighter has no desire to save the oracle but rather flex her righteous indignation; otherwise she wouldn't be trying to kill the imp before she left, suggesting metagaming knowledge to future characters, and crying about always being marginalized because of her alignment......that she is pushing on others.
OP Here!
Whoop, gonna step in and correct something: I'd actually say the Fighter's character cares a WHOLE LOT about the Oracle, since he expressly told the Oracle he wanted the imp gone because he couldn't stand to see the Oracle potentially get corrupted. He hadn't had a huge problem with it before, because it hadn't done anything actively evil, but now it's gone too far (although he always disliked the thing). His choice to leave was because he couldn't stand to see it, and his choice to kill the imp before he left was to try and save the oracle even while leaving... Yeah not exactly the most straight forward logic vov But i DO get it, kinda.
Man I feel like I'm adding in all these extra details, but I can be long winded and didn't want my original post bogged down by the minutia of inter-character relationships?
BASICALLY:
Oracle and his twin sis (a rogue) are orphaned teenaged Fetchlings (which, since they age like half-elves, means he's even younger than he seems).
The Fighter's entire character concept revolves in part on the fact he's been an absentee parent to his daughter, the party's alchemist, and he's returned at the start of the campaign to try and reconnect with her. Being paternal and such is a very large part of his character.
So it's not that the fighter is flexing "righteous indignation", its that he views this fetchling kid as a sort of semi-adoptive-son-figure and is worried about him AS A PARENT. Is he being overly stubborn and sorta silly about it? Sure, but so does any parent that gets overly worried about their kids (oh my god I can't imagine my mom if she thought I were into drugs or something... She raises worries enough about D&D ;D)
This is aside from any OOC issues, because i DO think on a lot of levels she was playing her character straight. Iiiiiii wish that didn't involve quite the level of STUBBORNNESS, but he DOES have all of 7 cha, so I'unno XT
Also the "LN" thing with the oracle is... Well, we play pretty fast and loose with character alignments, we might AIM for something, but ultimately I won't force my players to pick an alignment unless something comes up that DEMANDS it, and even then we often leave it to the DM to decide based on the character's past actions! The system just ain't nuanced enough for our comfort! I'm comfy calling the Fighter "good", but wasn't sure what to call the oracle... having read people's posts, it mighta been better to say the character was True Neutral. The player herself never defined an alignment, beyond jokingly saying "True Reasonable".
Basically, in our games, you let your actions determine your alignment, rather than the other way around, and the DM has final say in what they think you are. If there isn't a mechanical NEED to define an alignment, the players usually won't, beyond maybe stating their "goal" alignment.
Congrats MuseAmused, it sounds like you did an excellent job of resolving an awkward situation. It sounds like you have a good group, I wish you a successful AP!
Eheh, I think the credit should go more to my Oracle's player than to me, but still! C: Thank you very much, they really are a good bunch *hugs them all*
well i hope the situation gets settled in the least destructive and most pleasnt way it can for both players and u. Its tough to be a DM and even more so when players bring in bad experences from there past. Its life but with experience and patience u will be able to better prepare for a situation like this again if it ever rears its ugly head. For now all u can do is let thing play out as it may.
Good luck and best of wishes.
D'aaaw, thank you kindly for the well wishes C:> Fingers crossed, eh?
Sounds like it worked out in the end. My compliments to the Oracle player for actively defusing the situation herself.
This all sounded like a case of accidental favoritism.
You know even though you didn't intend to favor the oracle you did give her a special personal evil devil NPC. Something no one else was going to get. And since it was evil there was huge potential to turn out bad for the rest of the group. Now the fighter may have been overly dramatic in trying to stop it but I empathize with her if she sees favoritism. Favoritism is a very bad thing. Sometimes when you have been hurt by a bad thing you over react to it in future encounters. Fighter player didn't handle this well but I think her motivation was honest enough, she didn't want the game ruined. Her fears were real even if what you intended was not what she saw happening at all. The responsibility here was for YOU to defuse the situation either by explaining OOC that this Imp was going to do it's level best to turn the oracle evil and that no favoritism was being used or by removing the imp yourself. Sometimes it's worth it to show your GM cards if it means earning a players trust.
Yeah, I hear you :( I also feel she got dramatic about it but UNDERSTAND ENTIRELY why, and feel really rotten that something I did ended up causing her to fear such a thing was happening AGAIN! Heck, I invited her to join our group SPECIFICALLY cuz she'd tell me about how awful her old group was (They had constant PvP and it was a huge mess and the DM was awful and bleeeeeh).
Plus its not like I've never been in a situation as a player where I over-reacted or accidentally let OOC concerns get the better of me u.u; That's prolly not a real flattering thing for me to admit about my self, but it's the truth and I've been working very hard to avoid repeating it.
I'm gonna sit down with her privately after the oracle reveals her intentions to retcon. Talk it out and hope I can help calm her fears :<
This is why everyone should read the boards before running an AP.
The OP would have known to run an all-elf party of aspirant lantern-bearers and avoided the whole shebangerangedangelangewang.
(Sorry ahead of time if I've misread your tone, it can be hard to tell sometimes u.u;; )
Hey man, I read LITERALLY the entire Second Darkness forum before I started running! That's why I originally said it was a 'Heavily Modified' campaigned, I've edited TOOONS of stuff >:B I totes know making it all elf woulda smoothed some stuff, but I could never see my players enjoying me going "HEY GUYS YOU ALL HAVE TO BE ELVES IN MY GAME. OH AND YOU ALL NEED TO BE CONNECTED TO THIS SPECIFIC THING. NO, YOU CAN'T MAKE ORPHANED FETCHLING TWINS, OR AN ESTRANGED HUMAN FATHER AND DAUGHTER, OR ANYTHING ELSE EXCEPT THESE SPECIFIC ELVES."
I mean, talk about unhappy players.
Still, there's something to be said about having a party where everyone's characters at least know each other in PASSING before the Adventure Path starts. We plan to try to work that angle a lot more in the future. FOR NOW, WE ADJUST. Hopefully.
After reading all you posts my thought is your fighter is a drama queen and is being a hardliner in and out of game to see if you really care about her. This is why female gamers are always wanted but seldom work. Not because of what they do specifically because they arent wrong but they don't play well with others unless its on their terms.
My advice: Let the rest of the party...
OP here!!
UH NEWSFLASH DUDE:
I'M ALSO A "FEMALE GAMER"
AS IS THE ORACLE'S PLAYER.
AS IS THE PARTY'S ROGUE'S PLAYER.
AND THE ONLY MALE PLAYER IN THE PARTY IS PLAYING THE FIGHTER'S DAUGHTER.
AND IN 4.5 YEARS OF GAMING I HAVE NEVER PLAYED WITH A PARTY THAT HAD MORE THAN ONE MALE PLAYER (and sometimes it was the GM!)
SO YEAH NO. Please don't start bringing gender into this because I ASSURE you, that is NOT the issue at hand >BI
Who's to say your gnome dragon disciple isn't a big fat portly Imp. Have you seen another one to compare it to?
ASDFDGHHFf- off topic but you just said something unintentionally hilarious, because in our other game (I alternate with another DM so we can take breaks)...
I am, in fact, playing a Gnome Dragon Disciple.
Whose bloodline is Red Dragon. Who's gonna look like this http://amuseamused.tumblr.com/image/38275928622 when he finishes the transformation.
(He's NG, deeply devout to Sarenrae and wants to open a church to her in Magnimar :D)
We haven't had a chance to sit down and talk it out as a group, but my Oracle's Player informed me today that she plans to propose a slight retcon:
Rather than have her oracle refuse the Ultimatum (which she initially did because because she didn't think OOC that it was for real, whoops), she's going to have the oracle accept and release the imp, since her character would logically know he isn't bluffing and wouldn't want to cause the Fighter to leave (as another character is the fighter's estranged daughter and the oracle doesn't want to come betwe-... IT'S COMPLICATED lets just leave it at that ahahahahaha)
I plan to have the imp, who is of COURSE eavesdropping, attempt to GTFO, although I'll give the players a chance to catch and/or kill it if they so choose. If they kill it, they kill it or whatnot. If not... Well, they may have just made themselves a recurring villain-type ;D
I'm very proud that the Oracle's player is willing to give up the imp for keeping the group happy. I do feel uncomfortable that an ultimatum even came UP and will explain this, but from here out I'm going to try to step back and not let myself get accidentally over-attached to ANY NPCs.
I'm also gonna mention that this AP deals with a lot of grey morality/lesser of two evils, but I think it'll be ok.
Fingers crossed this solves the problem!!
Thank you again to everyone who's posted their two copper on this, its given me a lot of perspectives on the situation and the different ways people might feel about it. I think this experience will help me avoid such things in the future!
Hmm. You know. I HAVE kinda considered having the imp pull a vanishing act. He was told by the player "its best to respect the Fighter's wishes" at one point in the past, and he could take it as a loophole to let himself leave WHILE keeping the contract... Follow them secretly and reveal his evil plans down the line?
Or just have him go "WHOOPS I'm outa here", thats probably smarter. Mmmrgh I dunno aaaah.
... Sigh. I can't even lie. I ADORED the plot line the imp brought to things and he was really fun to RP :/ I really wish there was a way to keep him around. It's sounding more and more like that's not an option though. And as GM, my job isn't to run around with a character of my own, it's to set the story and world for the PCs. I need to stop selfishly wanting the imp to get to stay...
Oh gosh, so many answers so quickly, thank you, everyone! I see a few different view points, so I'll do my best to address them all...
A few clarifications:
-The Fighter has NOT threatened to kill the Oracle; just to kill the IMP. And plans to do so BEFORE leaving.
-I read a brief mention of the existence of redeemed fiends in Classic Horrors Revisited and basically stand by the rule of "If you actually gave it a strong enough incentive, then yeah, I'd allow it". I would NOT a fiend becoming "good" except in extreme circumstances... For example, the only way to redeem the imp would be to appeal to it's lawful nature. Convince it to become a creature of law more than evil.
Basically, it's possible, but extremely difficult to do.
I've had the imp scheming and manipulating from day 1 (from trying to convince the Oracle he should take the evil-subtype Infernal Healing spell, to including offers for further benefits the Oracle could get in their contract, most of them involving distinctly Evil). And oooooooh boy does he have some horrifically evil in mind with the contract (lets just say I included some fine print to turn it into a Catch-22. I'd hoped I could use it as a hook for a "travel to hell, save my soul" type adventure… I got ahead of myself, what can I say >.>;). I've always really liked the idea of the "Charming Lawful Evil Character", making LE seem reasonable and sane and just so damn willing to do awful things. So I've played the imp as playing the long-con...
BUT. I've realized that although <i>I've</i> been operating under the assumption that WELL YEAH OBVIOUSLY IT'S AN IMP IT'S GONNA TRY TO SCREW YOU OVER AND KEEPING IT IS PLAYING WITH FIRE, BUT GO FOR IT!!... The oracle's player might not have DX I was loathe to state it out so plainly because I didn't want to ruin "the surprise/dramatic suspense" but... Yeah it's kinda clear that this needs to be well understood by everyone. I'll have to be sure to establish it. "You get benefits of having an imp on your team, but that little s+!% is definitely plotting. You can pretty much rely on it."
I fully intend to have us sit down and talk it out, as mentioned. I really wish I could sit back and let them handle it, but frankly, I don't think the problem is just between them. They disagree about the imp, sure, but it's MY actions the Fighter's player perceived as being against her. I'm under the impression she feels like ANYTHING I do to allow the imp to live or stop her character is me being biased… Because I accidentally managed to strike chords that just reminded her too much of a really bad past experience with an awful DM >__< Good job, me.
I didn't agree initially, but another player/more experienced GM whose advice I trust implied she thinks that I might have been?? So i dunno any more. I just want to be a good GM and for everyone to get to have fun :C
I'm gonna give it a day or two for everyone to calm down, then see what can be done. I know we need to sit down and talk. But I don't even know what to SAY!! How do I even start?
Welp, I've got a really nasty situation on my hands.
I'm currently GMing a modified version of Second Darkness. Here's whats up:
There's an imp that can be encountered during the first adventure who, although not initially hostile, usually ends up as an enemy and gets killed. Just another doomed NPC.
However, when my party's LN Oracle heard about him, he sought the imp out, curious about why it was hanging around.
The Oracle has an extremely "shades of grey" world view and doesn't truly believe any creature can actually be fully good or evil, and befriended the imp, eventually taking it under a contract to work for him (I had the imp agree in exchange for an unspecified favor at later date).
The oracle did this with the belief that A) having the imp under his control means its less a threat to people in general, and B) maybe if he shows enough true kindness and generosity towards it, he can turn it away from evil. The Oracle's player also informed me she wanted to eventually take the imp as a cohort.
I thought this all seemed like a fascinating and grand development and happily went along with it!
But then things started to get complicated when the party's Good aligned Fighter found out. The Fighter's player casually informed me and the oracle's player that she'd probably try to kill the imp at some point.
The Oracle's player was bummed out at the thought, so I discussed ways we could secretly save or bring back the imp with her. I thought (foolishly) that this was a perfect answer! The Fighter could act in-character. The oracle could keep her Cohort of choice!
Some time passed and then the Fighter actually finally confronted the Oracle. The Oracle tried to reach a compromise (we'll kill the imp if it does anything evil, I want to try and redeem it and keep it from hurting people by supervising it, let me have a chance to prove I can handle it, etc). The Fighter refused to budge an inch, stating that the Oracle was too young to understand what they were getting into, and they could not stand by and watch the Oracle's soul be put at risk.
But instead of simply demanding the Oracle release the imp and then killing it if the Oracle refused... The Fighter gave an ultimatum. Either the imp had to go, or the Fighter would leave the party.
The oracle thought this was a bluff and refused to release the imp.
At which point the Fighter's Player announced she needed to roll up a new character.
So now, as the situation stands, our Oracle's player feels awful because she didn't think the Fighter meant it, but also feels it invalidates her diplomacy-focused character if she takes it back (also she really really likes the imp and was really curious if it could be redeemed).
The Fighter's player has taken the situation very personally because her old DM screwed her over in favor of evil characters a lot, and I think I've accidentally given her the impression I'm doing the same. She feels that if I let the Oracle get the imp back it invalidates HER character.
The two other players are at a complete loss for what to do, having both attempted to convince the fighter to stay, to no avail.
The fighter's player has informed me she is still going to go kill the imp before her character leaves.
I feel really bad for having done goofed and given the Oracle bias because I was enjoying the plotline with the imp so much. I had no intention of giving favor or making this get so personal!
This players knows ahead of time either way and there's no going back there. The way this AP is set up, I actually think it's GOOD for them to be aware that they won't be staying in Riddleport, because I know that's been an issue for various parties in the past.
Howeeeever... The idea of not trying to make a character that'll last through the campaign seems really weird to me. I kind of like the "reverse drow" thing, although I think that could end up with one player set up to have a bit of a leg up over the other players, information wise, which is rather unfair...
I'd recommend seeing if you guys can't find something that'll last him through the campaign as a whole, that'll reduce the friction of changing up the party's composition midway, and everyone will be on the same page. Overall you've got some interesting concepts here for if it was just a written story, but for an RPG, I'd recommend you guys work to come up with something else. That, or make it so ALL the players get a bit of inside information.
I know this thread's a bit old, but I've been holding this in...
So one of my players, the Oracle, was really curious about why Saul had an actual IMP in his service and asked him about it. After discussing how it came about and meeting with Scratch-The-Imp himself, Saul convinced Scratch to start giving the Oracle lessons on diplomacy and manipulation.
Now, my players had had the idea of putting on a big show or play to help draw in customers to the GG and the Oracle saw potential in all of Scratch's various spell like abilities. So he asked the Imp to help out. Scratch proceeded to say he'd do it for a promised favor, written in contract form. Not for the Oracle's soul, no no no. Just a favor. A little thing. To be decided later, y'know? Nothing biiig.
To my shock, the Oracle agreed. And entered into the contract.
One thing led to another, Scratch betrayed Saul to help out the party and out of fondness for him, the Oracle bought his contract from Saul (who my party didn't end up killing! I played him rather more sympathetic than written, more of a desperate foolish scared man than an outright conniving one.).
This new contract is a bit different. I made it using the Pact Insidious from the 3.5 Fiendish Codex II as a base. Basically, Scratch has agreed to work for the party, but on the condition that the oracle owes him a major favor, provided it doesn't involve direct self-harm.
But the contract ALSO offers additional benefits if the Oracle does various acts of evil, such as agreeing to Coup De Grace any downed enemies they don't need for questioning, manipulating the legal system to his benefit, torture, casting evil spells, etc. In exchange, he can potentially get extra skill points, spell slots, or even feats, spells and Ability points if he does something QUITE HEINOUS.
Or money of course, but that's par for course.
And not only is Scratch subtly poking the Oracle into taking more of the contract's terms (he's working to convince him that "Infernal Healing" is evil in name only and really it's quite arbitrary don't you think).
He's also been nudging the Oracle's twin sister closer to being evil as well (Said sister is a orphaned teenage girl with a desperate desire for acceptance and approval, which Scratch offers, and a bit of a poor moral compass. She was heading towards evil even BEFORE Scratch started egging her on!). He's actually determined to see if he can't convince her to become an Asmodeus follower (using examples like the Devil Nuns who run orphanages to try and convince her that diabolic evil is just a matter of being willing to do what's needed...)
He's also been playing the part of a sympathetic ear to the party's wizard, who has a lot of insecurities and is in conflict with her dad (the Team's Fighter) a lot.
Said Fighter is the only one who seems to understand just the level of trouble Scratch is. He's planning on killing him if he can't convince the Oracle to release Scratch.
The Oracle has no intention of this. And many a plan for how to keep his new pet shoulder-devil alive and well. In fact, he's planning to take the Imp as a cohort once he takes Leadership.
In addition to all this, I've thought loooooong and hard about what to do with the favor. And I think I have the perfect thing.
(The oracle really should have asked what the glowing seal on the contract meant).
I haven't had this much fun in ages. Scratch is possibly my favorite NPC to date, and a neat way for me to give advice or a nudge if they need it. Gotta love how PCs will sometimes focus on a minor character and turn them into a major one, I never expected something like this to come of the angry imp stuck performing in a cage!
Kiss, a female Fetchling Acrobat-Archetype Rogue. Highly emotional, grew up on the streets with no knowledge of what her race actually is, wants to actually get somewhere in the world and live comfortably, currently edging pretty hard towards NE territory.
Once collected her own blood-money via her disguise-self ability and some well rolled bluffs.
Tell, Kiss' twin brother, a male Fetchling Dark Tapestry Oracle. Party leader, quietly OCD, determined to discover he and his sister's mystery origins, as well as open an orphanage, ridiculously empathetic, Neutral Reasonable.
Currently has an imp named Scratch-and-Bite-at-Night under contract as his cohort, although not for his soul (yet...).
Scratch, the aforementioned imp, who will be taking rogue levels soon. Has tiny armor and tiny clothing in his future.
Lia Ramsey, a female human Diviner Wizard. Wants to become a famous Cyphermage, has serious issues with her dad and a lot of teen angst, plus major social anxiety and awkwardness. Solidly neutral.
Changed her name from "Eirlys" to Lia.
Is not allowed to try to interrogate prisoners after spending five minutes calling the last one "ugly" and "stupid" in various ways with her dad adn getting absolutely nowhere.
Rhydderch Ramsey, male human Fighter/Chevalier. Came home after years working to take care of his daughter after his wife died, doesn't quite get why his daughter gets mad at him for insulting cyphermages for being snooty (okay they are, but still). Lawful Good that thinks he's Chaotic. Doesn't know how to people.
Has the most ridiculously hard to understand accent. Somehow manages to communicate with an NPC who has a poor grasp of common, mostly through the common bonds of HONOR.
All in all a ridiculously fun group.
Now if only Tell can find a way to keep Rhyd from killing Scratch... Ah well, there's always faking your own death and sitting invisible on your employers shoulder!
I think I've actually got an idea for a solution that should be both relatively elegant and simple, plus easy to enact, requiring only a few minor changes (mostly to background plot).
My impression as both a GM and player is that it's the Fake Out that's the problem here. Spending two adventures escaping from somewhere to get back to save the world isn't a bad thing at all! But spending an adventure escaping only to find out WHOOPS NO YOU DIDN'T HAHA GOTTA START ALL OVER. It's a slap in the face.
So here's my proposal: Merge Adventures 4 and 5 together. Adventure 4 explores Kakishon at large and serves to let the players figure out HOW to escape. The solution turning out to be in Jhavul's personal homebase/palace on Kakishon (Jhavul seems like he'd have set up shop during his long, looooooong stay, and there's a volcano that would allow for Plane-of-Fire esc environment).
Then they spend Adventure 5 seeking out and exploring Jhavul's palace (Still in Kakishon!) in order to escape.
This makes the adventure into an extra long two parter, one part traveling, one part dungeon crawl, which I suspect my players would enjoy very much. There's obviously some changes that would need to be made, but from what I've read, it's mostly to background plot/NPC backstories/background mechanics.
Compared to trying to scale up or scale down adventures for different levels, this seems pretty easy to do. I haven't begun working out the specifics just yet (I'm in the middle of running Second Darkness and don't want to get ahead of myself, since I'm making major changes in that adventure too).
BUT I hope this idea proves helpful to anyone else looking for a solution to this pickle C:
As someone GMing for this game who's read through all six books at least three times (yeah I'm a little crazy)... I think you'll be fine. Like Coridan said, you won't get screwed over entirely if you can't get past a trap.
There's not NO traps in this AP, but there's not so many that you'll constantly be wishing you'd taken it. Just a few here or there. And all of them can be handled via alternate means if the party is clever (or can just be blundered past and you take your lumps and that's that). So I'd say go for it with the Rake archetype!
Those who didn't like the AP as written aren't saying you can't have a great time playing the AP. If I decide to run it some time, I'm pretty sure I'll be able to make it an enjoyable campaign. But I'd have to change much more of SD to do so than for any other AP.
I think several of the adventures are great individually. They just don't come together well as a cohesive entity.
Exactly my feelings. We're having a great time playing it and I'm happy running it because I really enjoy messing with GM stuff and writing my own plot elements and changing up motivations and the like! So while a lot of work, this AP also represents a lot of opportunity to me!
But not everyone likes that kind of work, and people who just wanna pick up the premade and GO are gonna find things pretty frustrating.
Check me off as another who is GMing this AP but with big changes. Just finished "Shadow in the Sky" and so far everyone's having a lot of fun.
That said... It probably wouldn't work if I hadn't known ahead of time about the kind of characters my Players were gonna make. Two wanted to make fetchling siblings who didn't know what they were, nor their origins, so I ran with the visual similarity to Drow and tied in the shadow plane WAY more. Drow are basically elven fetchlings now, and the Azrinaes are actively extremists. If that doesn't hint to the scope of what I've changed, I dunno what will.
But anyways, the way I see it when it comes to Second Darkness is this:
The concepts, many of the encounters, environments and so on? They are pretty damn fun! This adventure wasn't CONCEPTUALLY bad at all!
But I think there were a lot of execution problems. It really needed a lot more refining and editing. The blatant railroading that's prevalent is frustrating for a high-RP content and creative party.
When I talk about railroading, I don't just mean the "they have NO OPTIONS BUT TO DO IT EXACTLY THIS WAY". I mean that almost ALL plot info can't be discovered by the PCs actions. Most of it has to be told to them by NPCs. Or their diaries (which is, frankly, a rather over-used plot device).
So that is frustrating for players because they very actively can tell they haven't got control over what happens to them. It makes their choices nearly meaningless.
Add to that the fact that the amount of betrayals that happen in this AP is, quite frankly, mind blowing. It's one thing to have Betrayal be a theme. It's another to have the PCs CONSTANTLY betrayed by people they considered allies.
Plus the incompetent and unsympathetic NPCs, the potential tonal 180 between the second and third adventures...
Now, I'm a big fan of this AP! But that's specifically because I'm willing to put in the work to adapt things to my players, let things go off the tracks a little if it means a more exciting story that the PCs can take more initiative with, and I like to build and change my adventures to have a personal flair.
My verdict: This AP CAN be really great if you're the kind of GM who enjoys or is at least okay with being really flexible, and/or is prepared to put in the work to edit the awkward bits.
BUT if you're a GM just looking for a nice pre-made ready-to-go game to run without having to do a lot of extra legwork... This AP could end up really being frustrating for GM and players alike!
Ok, well I definitely want him to come across as a desperate man who does what he does out of fear. So far I ended up playing him kind of fatherly (since 3 of the PCs are teenagers and the remaining is ALSO a father), and they seem to like him a lot.
Spoilers!:
Because of this, I'm definitely leaning towards having him like them and be ordered into it. So if possible, I'll have him fight them, display his desperation (we're RP heavy, I guarantee they'll have things to say to him during the fight), and then run to Depora. Ideally not have her kill him until they get there, so maybe just keeping him a step ahead of the PCs? Something like that.
So thanks for the input! If anyone has any comments on other aspects of my plans, feel free to throw those in as well!
Especially for ideas on my drow condundrum? How do I make these things look less obviously like drow (I'm an illustration student, so I can draw something up rather than just describe it), but keep the humanoid with dark skin/white hair/pointy ears look?
I just want my players to feel actual confusion and surprise when they see it, have it ACTUALLY be something they've never seen before, so I don't have to fudge it and go "Psssst and btw Drow are a myth you've never seen this before, ACT SURPRISED". Real shock is always better than fake, if you ask me.
I can give you the issues I had with my game so far.
** spoiler omitted **
Actually I have a plan for that! I remembered seeing that mentioned on the forums, and one person mentioned when they ran the adventure, they had it so Saul genuinely liked the PCs.
Spoilers:
When he betrays them, it's not because HE wants to- It's because DEPORA is getting worried about these people who're living directly above her, getting more and more powerful. Paranoid of discovery that she is, she threatens Saul into betraying them. He doesn't want to, he's just too scared of her and too far in to back out and refuse.
So this way, his reason for betraying them is a bit stronger, and also adds some fun conflict to the situation. Will my PCs kill him anyway? Will they decide to take pity on him and convince him to spill the beans?
Hey all. So I'm a first-time DM, about to start running Second Darkness for a 4-player party. After reading the adventures, I'd been looking around the forums to get advice on how to run it and have consistently seen that there's definitely a few issues with this path. By that point, my players were busy getting attached to the characters they were making, and I honestly like enough of the basic concepts that I decided to go for it... But with some changes.
As such, I'm posting my plans for what to alter here, in the hopes people might be able to offer me thoughts and advice on my plans and how likely to succeed they are.
(PSsst: My players STAY OUT, spoilers abound)
Spoilers:
My Party:
Twin Fetchling (Kiss, female acrobat-rogue, and Tell, male dark-tapestry Oracle). Their players requested "mysterious backstory even they don't know" and are playing their characters as orphans in Riddleport who don't know their own species nor origin.
and
an estranged father (Rhydderch, male human fighter) seeking to reconnect daughter (Lia, female human diviner), who was left an odd deed to a home, along with a promised wizard apprenticeship, in a town called "Siavenian" by her half-elf mother.
My planned changes are as follows:
This is not the first occurrence of the Blot, although the last one was smaller and persisted for less time, so it wasn't noticed as widely. It occurred a little less than two decades ago, and the starstone called down mostly burned up in the atmostphere. It's cargo however, did not... This was the very first test run the Drow did, since I didn't see any timelines given and all elves are notorious for being able to plot century-spanning plans.
I decided to change it so that there's stronger Shadow Realm elements, with the starstones being pulled through the Shadow Realm as a sort of "shortcut" to move them from the Dark Tapestry. This time whenever a starstone is summoned, it drags with it pockets of the shadow realm containing a few trapped denizens of the shadow realm- Fetchlings, shae, etc. They usually are killed upon impact, but a pair managed to survive- these are my Fetchling players. The Blot is now both a targeting "device" and a weakening of the barrier to the shadow plane.
My Fetchling players happened to design their characters as having pitch black skin and white hair... So of course I jumped at the idea of having them mistake the Drow for their own kind, and, hopefully, pursue the plot seeking to discover their own origins.
I also wanted this similarity to make sense. This ties into one of my major issues with this campaign: The Drow themselves. I know, I know, why am I even running it if I don't like Drow? The thing is, I do like Drow when they're portrayed like this. My problem is, SD assumes Drow are considered a myth and are an unknown and surprising thing.
Lets face it, out of game, they are not. They are ridiculously well known.
There is no way offered to communicate in-game that Drow are a myth without tipping my hand. My players are VERY roleplay heavy, and frankly I hate the idea of them trying to 'fake" shock at what is meant to be a very real twist (the reveal of Depora). So I decided to keep playing with the Shadow Realm approach: if there are shadow-realm humans, why not a similar race for elves? Why not have the Elves the Drow descended from be affected by negative energy pockets in the Darklands in a similar way to humans trapped on the shadow realm. Allevrah's discovery of the starstone not only allows them revenge, it allows them a way to make the world more comfortable to them, more akin to the shadow realm.
There's still a few holes with this, but the basic idea works for me. I'd keep them mechanically nearly the same, maybe change a few abilities to be more "shadow" like. The big change I want to make would be physical: I don't want my players to instantly recognize it's a drow upon hearing about it or seeing a picture. Have them use the norse term "dakkalfar" instead of Drow. I want them to slowly figure out they're fighting drow from the experiences, but initially think this is something new and bizarre.
The kicker: I also want them to still be similar enough to the fetchlings, visibly, that there will be a moment of confusion all around. IE, keep pointed ears, dark skin, white hair.
My current design takes the unnaturally long and disporportinate limbs of the Fetchling illustration, turns their hair into hair-like "quills" that can raise and flatten according to emotions, and flattens their nose to the point you almost can't see it. It's in the right direction but I'm not sure exactly what else to do. Anyone got ideas?
As for my human side of the party, I'm hoping to use the mystery of the deed and waiting apprenticeship in Siavenian to motivate Lia, whether via curiosity or just pure ol' greed. Her father, whose character is based around trying to get to know her better, is probably the most obviously good aligned and so the combo of his daughter's potential investment and his own moral obligation, will hooooooopefully serve to self motivate.
The other issues of the AP...
The biggest ones I've seen called out are the railroading, the a*!~&&$ elves providing poor motivation to help them, and of course the entirety of Memory of Darkness.
My plans with the railroading is to let go of the reigns a little and use the adventures that're worse at it, like Armageddon Echo, more like the sandboxes they seem like they sort of tried to be and failed. A lot of people on these forums suggest letting the players find information themselves that is otherwise handed to them in chunks by NPCs. I'll use provided random encounters and other events to let them just do explore as they like in Endless Night, let them discover the drow-disguise spell in Armageddon (someone suggested it be a drow spell that they could find notes on and repurpose). That kind of thing. Let their plans that may differ from the tracks succeed, as long as they can logically pull them off. Reward them for ingenuity.
With the elves, I'll leave the big guys kind of haughty... But allow for a lot of interaction with the grunts and civilians, and let there be perfectly friendly and likable people amongst them. As a player, I've found myself randomly charmed with random improvised NPCs, from guardsmen who managed to survive a Wyte attack, to the old guy running the stables, to random village urchins. Showing a little "humanity" amongst the people who AREN'T in charge will go a long way to making it clear the elves don't just ALL DESERVE TO DIE. In addition, I'll make the Queen slightly less manipulative, and have her let them in on the conspiracy, admitting she'll deny everything of course.
I'll play the Winter Council as more or less a proper dungeon, with the council as boss monsters. Although they'll have the chance to talk to the members, I'll work it so they can, for the most part, still just go through without setting up the meeting, although I'll still arrange it so Hialin goes Drow at the end. I might put some sort of hint as to a concrete reason why particular elves go Drow, just to establish he wasn't simply one in disguise. Not quite sure what exactly, possibly something to do with the shadow realm, but I don't want to push that into TOO many places. But yeah, the cut-scene nature of the tower always bothered me, so I'm going to work around it. Give the party a bigger role than messangers.
Those are the vast majority of my plans. The main key is being flexible, allowing the players to lead the way and reward them for taking initiative by sprinkling info for them to find themselves, establishing not all elves are awful, and letting the players motivate themselves (by the offering of a revealed backstory for the fetchlings, and a personal material investment in Kyonin for the other half of the group).
And mixing up the Drow's appearance, although this isn't as vital so much as a personal preference.
Now if only it wouldn't be a hideous amount of work to replace the demons with a different type of outsider... Don't get me wrong, demons are a blast, but the beastiaries offer what, five different evil outsider groups? Some of whom are REALLY interesting. It'd be nice to see it get mixed up with some of them.
So that's that. If anyone has any thoughts or opinions, I'd love to hear them! Likewise, thanks to the forums as a whole for providing me so many resources to edit and adjust this AP.
Organized Play Characters
Garekk Antonsen
M Half-Orc Arcanist (School Savant)/2
(0
posts)
Ezra Mockingbird
M Sylph Magus (Eldrich Scion (Air))/1
(0
posts)
Garekk Antonsen
Ezra Mockingbird
Billy Thibodeaux
Leilanni Lamellar
Bruhjana Runelight
Drake Falconfang
Maya-7
Aldric Greenbriar
Eelvoo Preesloo
Rono Tenderfoot
Therion Xenandros
Benjam Malax
Tadpole Peppersprout
Billy Thibodeaux Jr
Conway-17/Vernon "Rascal" Moses
To be named-20220904
To be named 123