I would like to see a build like that.
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One major thing I like about the Fighter class is its role-playing potential. Rangers, Paladins, Inquisitors, and Barbarians all have a limit to their backgrounds: Holy Warrior, Noble Savage, Woodsman, etc. but the Fighter does not. His background can be pretty much anything you want as long as he fights. I like that. I can be a grizzled vet, a scholar, a thug, or an ex-con. I am not limited by the basic background idea of the class. Sure, it's just a role-playing aspect of the class but it offer additional flavor to the Fighter character.
Rangers and Barbarians definitely don't have limits on their background. Your Ranger can be a rich aristocrat whose favorite pastime is taking walks in the woods and looking at bear shit if you want him to be. Barbarians are just untrained fighters with anger issues, no limits there.
Paladins and Inquisitors are slightly more limited but not really by much.
You can't have it both ways. If "I can RP this" is a valid upside for the Fighter it's a valid upside for every other class too.
You have not presented any evidence that fighters remove the "G" from the "RP" or vice versa.
I figured the fact that he has to invest a large amount of his resources into being as good at something any other class with more basic skill points can do with no further investment is a pretty good example of the mechanics not supporting the RP. Just because something can be done does not mean it is supported by the game.
I, on the other hand, have provided multiple examples of how the fighter merges "RP" and "G" quite adequately.
What example is that? The closest evidence I've seen is Ravingdork's nifty build, but I think he'd still agree that the whole "Has to be a human Lore Warden with a hefty Int investment" thing limits a lot of the flexibility you claim the Fighter has.
Maybe we're talking past each other here. When I talk about flexibility and options I speak of what any one build can get, not what the class can do if you take every possible way it can be built.
You have to do some pretty specific things to make a Fighter a skill monkey-esque class, and have to be pretty good at managing things to build one who's also good at combat. Meanwhile, the average Ranger is only slightly worse off in combat, gets nearly as many combat Feats, and does surpass the Fighter vs his FE is able to get about the same amount of skill points with absolutely no investment. The Ranger is flat-out more flexible because he does not have to sacrifice anything or be built a certain specific way to retain both things.
I know it seems like I'm picking on the Ranger a lot here but it seems like whoever built the Ranger class and whoever made the other classes weren't on the same page.
"Why can't the Monk have full BaB?"
"Well because he has all those cool magic abilities and special class features of course!"
"So what about the Ranger?"
"Martial classes should probably usually have less skill points than the skill classes or Int based classes."
"Except the ranger, right?"
Argh.
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This argument is heard a lot and this is a thread dedicated to fighter builds who can retain their combat effectiveness while contributing to out of combat challenges. When I get home I will post some of my builds but feel free to post your own and discuss them. Please keep the builds in spoiler tags.
Cheers.
Any specific parameters? As in, what point buy, any limits on Archetypes (might simplify matters, but losing Lore Warden for a test like this would hurt), and so on?
To try and prove my point, I'll look over your builds and then attempt to build a Ranger or Barbarian (or both) that can do it better without sacrificing too much combat effectiveness.
Just go with the standard 20 point buy.
A far as martial classes go, rangers are probably the most versatile, game wise, imo paladins are better than barbarians and fighters chill at the bottom of the list
Tho it's not a bad class, I will say I do feel personally they are more reliant on magic gear than the other classes due to a lack of self buffing, but gaining as many feats as they have does help them imo
I played one years ago and had a lot of fun with him, but I will say I did not like dumping int and not really being able to do anything RP wise
After reading the lore master I actually kinda want to play one now, seems really cool
I think a single level dip into the Rogue class fixes the ''Fighters are useless outside of combat'' problem entirely and it also works well with Shatter Defenses.
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I think a single level dip into the Rogue Class fixes the ''Fighter are useless outside of combat'' problem entirely and it also works well with Shatter Defenses.
Now now, no dipping. You will have the others flocking in here screaming that you had to go outside the fighter to be useful outside of combat.
I think a single level dip into the Rogue Class fixes the ''Fighter are useless outside of combat'' problem entirely and it also works well with Shatter Defenses.Now now, no dipping. You will have the others flocking in here screaming that you had to go outside the fighter to be useful outside of combat.
Yeah, but it's also amusing that the two most hated classes on these boards (outside of the monk and the gunslinger), the fighter and the rogue, can make a pretty awesome character when taken together. To me, the fact that a class is ''dip-worthy'' or ''multiclassing-worthy'' is actually a plus for the class. ;)
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Except that any such build, you could replace Fighter with Commoner, and it would achieve those same ends with the same effectiveness.Really? You can make a strong fighter with out of combat usefulness with a commoner? I'd like to see that build, honestly.
You've failed to grasp my point. Do you need me to explain it to you in more detail?
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Here you go: a fighter who can take the rogue's job. It's 20 pt buy, and doesn't even use traits - although doing so would have made it even more effective. Does this count as a fighter who can do something out of combat?
Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +28
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DEFENSE
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AC 25, touch 15, flat-footed 20
(armor +10, Dex +5)
hp 79 (10d10+20)
Fort +8, Ref +9, Will +8 (+10 vs fear)
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 halberd +15/+10 (1d10+5, 20/x3)
Ranged +3 composite (+2) longbow +23/+18 (1d8+9, 20/x3) or
+3 composite (+2) longbow with Deadly Aim, Multishot and Rapid Shot +18 (1d8+15, 20/x3, plus 1d8+15) and +13/+18 (1d8+15, 20/x3)
Special Attacks weapon training (bows +2, polearms +1)
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STATISTICS
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Str 14 (+2), Dex 22 (+6), Con 12 (+1), Int 14 (+2), Wis 16 (+3), Cha 8 (-1)
Base Atk +10; CMB +12; CMD 28
Feats Alertness, Deadly Aim, Iron Will, Greater Weapon Focus (longbow), Multishot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus (Disable Device), Skill Focus (Perception), Skill Focus (Stealth), Weapon Focus (longbow), Weapon Specialization (longbow)
Skills Acrobatics +20 , Disable Device +23 (+28 vs traps) , Perception +28 , Stealth +26 , Sense Motive +10 , Survival +11 (+16 following tracks) ; armor check penalty -1.
Languages Common plus two more
SQ armor training 2, bravery +2, focused study
Gear +3 composite (+2) longbow, +1 halberd, +1 mithral full plate, belt of incredible dexterity +4, boots of elvenkind, headband of inspired wisdom +2, cloak of elvenkind, lenses of detection, masterwork thieves' tools, trapspringer's gloves, 1400 gp in various useful items.
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You've failed to grasp my point. Do you need me to explain it to you in more detail?Except that any such build, you could replace Fighter with Commoner, and it would achieve those same ends with the same effectiveness.Really? You can make a strong fighter with out of combat usefulness with a commoner? I'd like to see that build, honestly.
I would suggest it is that you have failed to grasp mine. You're ignoring the fact that the fighter's in-combat utility is completely covered by the simple fact of it being a fighter, leaving everything else free to do whatever you like with it. "A commoner could do it" ignores that the fighter can still brutally kick butt while having an entire NPC class' worth of resources leftover to dedicate to doing something else.
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This argument is heard a lot and this is a thread dedicated to fighter builds who can retain their combat effectiveness while contributing to out of combat challenges. When I get home I will post some of my builds but feel free to post your own and discuss them. Please keep the builds in spoiler tags.
Cheers.
I've only got one build put together for posting at the moment and I've posted it before. I'll post it here again at two points.
Battlefield control via shield slam. She can reposition or knock down opponents of any size.
Base 5 attacks per round at 15, 8 attacks per round at 20. Not the highest dpr, but enough damage to force respect.
High AC: CR+30 at 15, CR+32 at 20. Very few opponents will hit reliably. Even a Great Wrym can't count on attacks hitting.
Answer magic with magic. High UMD + scrolls allows flexibility equal to a partial caster at moderate cost. Not limited to a single classes spell list.
Mobility. Full plate with no movement or ACP penalty. Flight, both magic and non-magic at will.
Out of combat skills include diplomacy, disable device, heal and a reasonable perception. Not "the best" at any, but certainly high enough to act with good chance of success.
Female Garuda-Blooded Aasimar (Plumekith) Fighter 15
LG Medium Outsider (human, native)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +22
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Defense
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AC 45, touch 19, flat-footed 40 (+15 armor, +8 shield, +4 Dex, +3 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 164 (15d10+70)
Fort +18, Ref +14, Will +12 (+4 vs. fear); +2 vs. [evil], +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
Defensive Abilities bravery +4; Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft., flight (20 feet, poor)
Melee Light Shield Bash +25/+20 (1d3+15/x2) and
. . +4 Adamantine Longsword +24/+19/+14 (1d8+24/17-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0) +24/+19/+14 (1d8+9/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +5, bows +3, close +4)
Spell-Like Abilities See Invisibility (1/day)
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Statistics
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Str 21, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 12
Base Atk +15; CMB +20; CMD 39 (43 vs. Disarm, 43 vs. Sunder)
Feats Angel Wings, Angelic Blood, Angelic Flesh (Steel), Dodge, Greater Shield Focus, Improved Critical (Longsword), Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Power Attack -4/+8, Shield Focus, Shield Master, Shield Slam, Step Up, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Longsword), Weapon Specialization (Longsword)
Traits Dangerously Curious, Defender of the Society
Skills Acrobatics +9, Climb +8, Diplomacy +21, Disable Device +20, Disguise -1, Escape Artist +3, Fly +9, Handle Animal +5, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +7, Knowledge (local) +4, Linguistics +7, Perception +22, Ride +7, Sense Motive +5, Sleight of Hand +4, Spellcraft +4, Stealth +1, Survival +6, Swim +8, Use Magic Device +20
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Goblin, Minkaian, Sylvan
SQ scion of humanity, truespeaker
Combat Gear Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day), Scroll of Enlarge Person, Enlarge Person, Enlarge , Scroll of Feather Step, Feather Step, Feather Step, Scroll of Gravity Bow, Gravity Bow, Gravity Bow, G, Scroll of Invisibility, Invisibility, Invisibility, Scroll of Lead Blades, Lead Blades, Lead Blades, L, Scroll of See Invisibility, See Invisibility, See , Wayfinder, vanishing (1 @ 0 lbs); Other Gear +5 Full plate, +5 Light steel shield, +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0), +4 Adamantine Longsword, Amulet of natural armor +2, Belt of physical might (Str & Con +4), Boots of speed (10 rounds/day), Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +5, Eyes of the eagle, Gloves of dueling, Handy haversack (6 @ 0 lbs), Headband of mental superiority +2 (Disable Device), Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ioun stone (deep red sphere), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism, cracked), Living garments, Ring of evasion, Ring of protection +2, Thieves' tools, masterwork, 169 GP
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Special Abilities
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Angelic Blood +2 saves vs. evil effects, to stabilize while dying, and 1 damage to evil or undead if bleeding.
Angelic Flesh (Steel) +1 natural AC and your natural attacks count as cold iron.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Bravery +4 (Ex) +4 to Will save vs. Fear
Damage Resistance, Acid (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Acid attacks.
Damage Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Damage Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defender of the Society +1 trait bonus to Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor.
Flight (20 feet, Poor) You can fly!
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Living garments On command, change coloring, fit, and basic design. Repairs 1 hp a round.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ring of evasion No damage if you succeed on a Reflex save for half damage.
Scion of Humanity Count as a human for any effect related to race. Pass as human without using disguise.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Shield Master No off-hand penalties for shield bashes, add a shield's enhancement bonus to attack rolls.
Shield Slam Shield Bash attack gives a free bull rush on a hit.
Step Up When a foe makes a 5 ft step away from you, you can move 5 ft to follow them.
Truespeaker Learn two languages for each rank you put in Linguistics.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +5 (Ex) +5 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training (Close) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
Female Garuda-Blooded Aasimar (Plumekith) Fighter 20
LG Medium Outsider (human, native)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +25
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Defense
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AC 52, touch 23, flat-footed 46 (+15 armor, +8 shield, +5 Dex, +6 natural, +5 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 234 (20d10+110)
Fort +23 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +18, Will +13 (+5 vs. fear); +2 vs. [evil], +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
Defensive Abilities bravery +5; DR 5/—; Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft., flight (20 feet, poor)
Melee Light Shield Bash +35/+30 (1d6+26/x2) and
. . +5 Glorious Adamantine Longsword +35/+30/+25/+20 (1d8+37/17-20/x3) and
. . Wing x2 (Metallic Wings) +23 x2 (1d4+14/x2)
Ranged +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0) +33/+28/+23/+18 (1d8+15/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +6, bows +4, close +5, natural +3)
Spell-Like Abilities See Invisibility (1/day)
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Statistics
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Str 30, Dex 22, Con 20, Int 20, Wis 12, Cha 12
Base Atk +20; CMB +31 (+33 Bull Rushing); CMD 53 (55 vs. Bull Rush, 57 vs. Disarm, 57 vs. Sunder)
Feats Angel Wings, Angelic Blood, Angelic Flesh (Steel), Combat Reflexes (7 AoO/round), Dodge, Double Slice, Endurance (Ioun stone (scarlet and green cabochan)), Greater Shield Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization (Longsword), Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (Longsword), Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Metallic Wings, Power Attack -6/+12, Shield Focus, Shield Master, Shield Slam, Step Up, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Longsword), Weapon Specialization (Longsword)
Traits Dangerously Curious, Defender of the Society
Skills Acrobatics +13, Appraise +6, Bluff +2, Climb +14, Diplomacy +26, Disable Device +28, Disguise +0, Fly +30, Handle Animal +6, Heal +22, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +13, Knowledge (local) +10, Linguistics +12, Perception +25, Ride +13, Sense Motive +7, Sleight of Hand +7, Spellcraft +7, Stealth +4, Survival +6, Swim +14 (+18 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion), Use Magic Device +26
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Minkaian, Osiriani, Osiriani, Ancient, Sylvan, Thassilonian, Undercommon
SQ bolstering, glorious (dc 14), scion of humanity, truespeaker, weapon mastery (longsword)
Combat Gear Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day), Potion of resist acid 30, Potion of resist cold 30, Potion of resist electricity 30, Potion of resist fire 30, Potion of resist sonic 30, Scroll of Alchemical Allocation, Alchemical Alloca, Scroll of Antimagic Field, Antimagic Field, Antima, Scroll of Arcane Eye, Arcane Eye, Arcane Eye, Arca, Scroll of Breath of Life, Breath of Life, Scroll of Elemental Aura, Elemental Aura, Elementa, Scroll of Enlarge Person, Enlarge Person, Enlarge , Scroll of Feather Step, Feather Step, Feather Step, Scroll of Fluid Form, Fluid Form, Fluid Form, Flui, Scroll of Gravity Bow, Gravity Bow, Gravity Bow, G, Scroll of Invisibility, Invisibility, Invisibility, Scroll of Lead Blades, Lead Blades, Lead Blades, L, Scroll of See Invisibility, See Invisibility, See , Wayfinder, vanishing (1 @ 0 lbs); Other Gear +5 Full plate, +5 Bashing, Bolstering Adamantine Light steel shie, +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0), +5 Glorious Adamantine Longsword, Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical perfection +6, Boots of speed (10 rounds/day), Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +5, Eyes of the eagle, Gloves of dueling, Handy haversack (17 @ 0 lbs), Headband of aerial agility (Int +6) (Disable Devic, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ioun stone (dark blue rhomboid), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism, cracked), Ioun stone (iridescent spindle), Ioun stone (pale green prism), Ioun stone (pink and green sphere), Ioun stone (scarlet and green cabochan), Ioun stone (vibrant purple prism), Ioun stone (vibrant purple prism), Living garments, Ring of evasion, Ring of protection +5, Thieves' tools, masterwork, 4294 GP
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Special Abilities
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Angelic Blood +2 saves vs. evil effects, to stabilize while dying, and 1 damage to evil or undead if bleeding.
Angelic Flesh (Steel) +1 natural AC and your natural attacks count as cold iron.
Bolstering +2 to save vs struck foe's abilities for 1 rd.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Bravery +5 (Ex) +5 to Will save vs. Fear
Combat Reflexes (7 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Damage Reduction (5/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Damage Resistance, Acid (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Acid attacks.
Damage Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Damage Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defender of the Society +1 trait bonus to Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor.
Endurance (Ioun stone (scarlet and green cabochan)) +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Flight (20 feet, Poor) You can fly!
Glorious (DC 14) Glow with daylight. Auto-dazzle struck foe for 1 rd and blind on crit (Fort neg).
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Headband of aerial agility (Int +6) (Disable Device, Heal) +1 CL for spells/extracts that grant flight.
Improved Bull Rush You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when bull rushing.
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Ioun stone (iridescent spindle) This stone sustains the bearer without air.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Living garments On command, change coloring, fit, and basic design. Repairs 1 hp a round.
Metallic Wings Gain metallic wings that deal 1d4 damage (1d3 if small).
Power Attack -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ring of evasion No damage if you succeed on a Reflex save for half damage.
Scion of Humanity Count as a human for any effect related to race. Pass as human without using disguise.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Shield Master No off-hand penalties for shield bashes, add a shield's enhancement bonus to attack rolls.
Shield Slam Shield Bash attack gives a free bull rush on a hit.
Step Up When a foe makes a 5 ft step away from you, you can move 5 ft to follow them.
Truespeaker Learn two languages for each rank you put in Linguistics.
Weapon Mastery (Longsword) (Ex) Chosen weapon has an improved critical multiplier, always confirms criticals, and cannot be disarmed.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +6 (Ex) +6 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training (Close) +5 (Ex) +5 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
Weapon Training (Natural) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Natural weapons
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You've failed to grasp my point. Do you need me to explain it to you in more detail?Except that any such build, you could replace Fighter with Commoner, and it would achieve those same ends with the same effectiveness.Really? You can make a strong fighter with out of combat usefulness with a commoner? I'd like to see that build, honestly.
To be blunt. I can replace a wizard with a commoner.
Max charisma, Dangerously Curious, Skill Focus; UMD, 20 ranks in UMD, level appropriate gear.
The same commoner also happens to replace the party cleric.
The difference is, the fighter can take those skills and feats without sacrificing combat ability.
While the build I just posted can only UMD 4th level spells no-fail, replacing dodge with skill focus and the purchase of the appropriate ioun stone would allow 9th level spells to be cast from a scroll on a 4+. That's every spell in the game, from any class. The cost? A single point of AC and a 200 gp item.
And she's still able to find and disarm traps, act as a diplomat and assist with healing via the heal skill.
Here: A party-face Fighter. And he even dumps Cha.
He's not human, he's not an archer and he uses no archetype.
He's the iconic switch-hitter, but with social skills. And even gets to use some of them in-combat. And he still has 5400gp left for some nice consumables or whatever else he wants.
However, he did spend much more of his resources than a Ranger, Barbarian or Gunslinger would have to. Including 2 feats, 2 traits, 2 attribute points and all of his favored class bonus.
Dr. Fighty McCharming
Male Half-Elf Fighter 10
LN Medium Humanoid (elf, human)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision; Perception +16
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 14, flat-footed 23 (+11 armor, +3 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 79 (10d10+20)
Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +9 (+3 vs. fear); +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities bravery +3; Immune magic sleep; Resist elven immunities
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +16/+11 (1d4+6/x2) and
. . +1 Silversheen Earth breaker +17/+12 (2d6+10/x3) and
. . +1 Silversheen Longsword +19/+14 (1d8+9/19-20/x2) and
. . +2 Silversheen Falchion +21/+16 (2d4+13/15-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +5) +16/+11 (1d8+8/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +2, bows +1)
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +16 (+18 Sundering); CMD 30 (32 vs. Sunder)
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Cornugon Smash, Improved Critical (Falchion), Improved Sunder, Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack -3/+6, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Weapon Focus (Falchion)
Traits Ease of Faith, Suspicious
Skills Diplomacy +18, Intimidate +17, Perception +16, Sense Motive +15, Survival +1 (+3 to avoid becoming lost)
Languages Common, Dwarven, Elven
SQ elf blood
Other Gear +2 Full plate, +1 Heavy steel shield, +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +5), +1 Silversheen Earth breaker, +1 Silversheen Longsword, +2 Silversheen Falchion, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical might (Str & Dex +2), Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +3, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ring of protection +1, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), 5400 GP
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Special Abilities
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Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Cornugon Smash When you damage an opponent with a Power Attack, you may make an immediate Intimidate check as a free action to attempt to demoralize your opponent.
Elf Blood You are counted as both elven and human for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Improved Sunder You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when sundering.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
You made a strawman and defeated it. Congrats.Outside of combat, a commoner is just as good as ANY class.
No. Just... No.
Name one thing a Fighter can do outside of combat that a Commoner of the same level can't.
A 1st level Human Fighter can sleep in medium armor, run longer, and go without food longer, while being able to properly finesse an Elven Curve Blade.
The human commoner cannot do all three of those things. For the record, neither can the human paladin or barbarian. They can do 2 of those three, but not all.
At second level, that fighter can also choose to power attack with that weapon. Then, at third level, he can also become a 15% better blacksmith.
The commoner can choose to do one of those things, but not both. Neither can the paladin.
Why do I bring the paladin up, especially when he's getting Smite Evil and a bonus to his saves? Simple, those are his class abilities. The fighter's class abilities aren't dedicated to doing things no one else can, they are dedicated to being able to do more things that everyone could choose to than anyone else. I can't count the number of builds I've done where I have thought "Man, I wish I had an extra feat or two by this level, so I could do...". Hell, I would love to be able to play a Paladin who could heal extra HP if he didn't have any reason to use his mercy.
...oh wait, that's a feat. That I can't grab at 3rd level if I want to have Power Attack and Weapon Finesse while playing an Elf.
I almost forgot, a commoner with an intelligence of 10 can't have 5 knowledge skills maxed for his level. A fighter can (lore warden).
Here... A woodsman Fighter. Although he deeply falls into "Why The Hell Didn't You Just Make A Ranger Instead?" territory, I suppose he counts as "can do something out of combat".
Sadly, in-combat, all he does is shoot people. No trip, no sunder, no intimidate, no nothing.
Let's hope arrows are enough to deal with whatever decides to attack him... Well, at least archery is has great DPR potential.
Ronnie Wannabe CR 9
XP 6400
Male Half-Orc (Mystic) Fighter 10
LN Medium Humanoid (human, orc)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +20
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 14, flat-footed 23 (+11 armor, +3 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 79 (10d10+20)
Fort +13 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +12, Will +10 (+3 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +3
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Silversheen Lucerne hammer +15/+10 (1d12+6/x2)
Ranged +1 Adaptive, Seeking Composite longbow (Str +3) +20/+15 (1d8+8/19-20/x3) and
. . +1 Composite longbow (Str +4) +18/+13 (1d8+8/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (bows +2, pole arms +1)
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Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +13; CMD 27
Feats Clustered Shots, Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round), Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice), Iron Will, Manyshot, Point Blank Master (Longbow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Snap Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
Traits Bandit (River Kingdoms) (Stealth), Valashmai Veteran (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics +15, Climb +7, Disable Device +13, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Perception +20, Stealth +21, Survival +9, Swim +7 (+11 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Common, Draconic, Orc, Sylvan
SQ seeking
Other Gear +2 Full plate, +1 Adaptive, Seeking Composite longbow (Str +3), +1 Composite longbow (Str +4), +1 Silversheen Lucerne hammer, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical might (Str & Dex +2), Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +3, Ring of protection +1, Masterwork tool (Perception), Masterwork tool (Stealth), 13985 GP
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Special Abilities
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Bandit (River Kingdoms) (Stealth) +1 to Stealth checks, Stealth is always a class skill for you.
Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice) +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Seeking Ignores miss chances, but must be aimed at the correct square.
Snap Shot Threaten squares within 5 feet of you when wielding a ranged weapon
Valashmai Veteran (Perception) +1 trait bonus on Survival in the jungle.
Weapon Training (Bows) +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training (Pole Arms) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Pole Arms
Here you go: a fighter who can take the rogue's job. It's 20 pt buy, and doesn't even use traits - although doing so would have made it even more effective. Does this count as a fighter who can do something out of combat?
** spoiler omitted **...
So I'm trying to build my Ranger and I've hit a few snags here. First, your Point Buy seems to be a bit too high (with 20 PB the best I could get was a starting array of 14/16/14/10/12/8), and second, you have WAAAAY too many items, unless you're using crafting prices. I hit 63,900 gold with just the +3 Composite Longbow (+2, Boots/Cloak of Elvenkind, my +1 Breastplate, and the Lens of Detection.
Am I missing something?
First off, what is the use of being useful outside of combat? Other than some Diplomacy and Knowledge rolls the stuff which happens outside of combat rarely seems to be very important.
Anyhow, a human Fighter can get a reasonable number of skill points. If you take the Focused Study racial trait he can even be really good at some specific skills via Skill Focus. If you're willing to invest in at least a 13 Charisma he can get a familiar via Eldritch Heritage. The familiar could use Aid Another to give him a +2 on most skill checks outside of combat. Later on he could even upgrade it to an Improved Familiar, maybe one who uses wands or something...
Sure, "even a Commoner could do that", but I think the idea is to make a Fighter who is useful outside of combat, not to make a Fighter who is much more useful than other PCs outside of combat. Another idea which just struck me is the Master Craftsman feat, which could let the Fighter craft magic arms and armor. Spending 2-3 feats on crafting might be a heavy investment for other melee classes, but a Fighter can probably afford to make it without losing much combat effectiveness.
You made a strawman and defeated it. Congrats.Outside of combat, a commoner is just as good as ANY class.
Too bad that commoner won't survive long in combat.
Really? Can a commoner cast Charm Person without a magic item? Can they Fascinate a crowd? Can they cure a disease? Do they have a chance to detect traps without using an action? Can they magically compel you to tell the truth?
What page are these abilities of the Commoner listed on?
Yes, you could outfit them with magic items that do this, but the Commoner doesn't have a special ability "be outfitted with magic items".
Name one thing a Fighter can do outside of combat that a Commoner of the same level can't.A 1st level Human Fighter can sleep in medium armor, run longer, and go without food longer, while being able to properly finesse an Elven Curve Blade.
The human commoner cannot do all three of those things. For the record, neither can the human paladin or barbarian. They can do 2 of those three, but not all.
At second level, that fighter can also choose to power attack with that weapon. Then, at third level, he can also become a 15% better blacksmith.
The commoner can choose to do one of those things, but not both. Neither can the paladin.
Why do I bring the paladin up, especially when he's getting Smite Evil and a bonus to his saves? Simple, those are his class abilities. The fighter's class abilities aren't dedicated to doing things no one else can, they are dedicated to being able to do more things that everyone could choose to than anyone else. I can't count the number of builds I've done where I have thought "Man, I wish I had an extra feat or two by this level, so I could do...". Hell, I would love to be able to play a Paladin who could heal extra HP if he didn't have any reason to use his mercy.
...oh wait, that's a feat. That I can't grab at 3rd level if I want to have Power Attack and Weapon Finesse while playing an Elf.
I almost forgot, a commoner with an intelligence of 10 can't have 5 knowledge skills maxed for his level. A fighter can (lore warden).
First off, the majority of the things you listed were combat related. I am exclusively talking about non-combat actions. Wearing armor and power attacking are both for COMBAT.
Second, I don't see any ability that fighters get that lets them be better blacksmiths. Commoner is an NPC class, they get exactly the same number of skill points as Fighters do. So a 3rd level Commoner can put exactly the same number of skill points into Craft (Blacksmith) as a Fighter can.
You've failed to grasp my point. Do you need me to explain it to you in more detail?Except that any such build, you could replace Fighter with Commoner, and it would achieve those same ends with the same effectiveness.Really? You can make a strong fighter with out of combat usefulness with a commoner? I'd like to see that build, honestly.To be blunt. I can replace a wizard with a commoner.
Max charisma, Dangerously Curious, Skill Focus; UMD, 20 ranks in UMD, level appropriate gear.
The same commoner also happens to replace the party cleric.
The difference is, the fighter can take those skills and feats without sacrificing combat ability.
While the build I just posted can only UMD 4th level spells no-fail, replacing dodge with skill focus and the purchase of the appropriate ioun stone would allow 9th level spells to be cast from a scroll on a 4+. That's every spell in the game, from any class. The cost? A single point of AC and a 200 gp item.
And she's still able to find and disarm traps, act as a diplomat and assist with healing via the heal skill.
You could replace a Wizard with a Commoner, except the Wizard would get the exact same amount of money on gear. The wizard would therefore have more potential spells to solve problems with than the Commoner, plus he could more easily do so on multiple days.
Commoner: Has X spells available in scrolls.
Wizard: Has X spells available in scrolls, plus Y spells available from his class.
If we assume that both numbers are positive, than X+Y > X
And yes, a Commoner can put ranks in any skill. But there are special abilities in some classes that don't just enhance a bonus to a skill, but allow you to use it in ways not normally possible, such as the Rogue Talent, Trap Sense.
A Commoner is not as effective as an actual caster, even out of combat. To suggest otherwise is at best disingenuous.
Name one thing a Fighter can do outside of combat that a Commoner of the same level can't.A 1st level Human Fighter can sleep in medium armor, run longer, and go without food longer, while being able to properly finesse an Elven Curve Blade.
The human commoner cannot do all three of those things. For the record, neither can the human paladin or barbarian. They can do 2 of those three, but not all.
At second level, that fighter can also choose to power attack with that weapon. Then, at third level, he can also become a 15% better blacksmith.
The commoner can choose to do one of those things, but not both. Neither can the paladin.
Why do I bring the paladin up, especially when he's getting Smite Evil and a bonus to his saves? Simple, those are his class abilities. The fighter's class abilities aren't dedicated to doing things no one else can, they are dedicated to being able to do more things that everyone could choose to than anyone else. I can't count the number of builds I've done where I have thought "Man, I wish I had an extra feat or two by this level, so I could do...". Hell, I would love to be able to play a Paladin who could heal extra HP if he didn't have any reason to use his mercy.
...oh wait, that's a feat. That I can't grab at 3rd level if I want to have Power Attack and Weapon Finesse while playing an Elf.
I almost forgot, a commoner with an intelligence of 10 can't have 5 knowledge skills maxed for his level. A fighter can (lore warden).
First off, the majority of the things you listed were combat related. I am exclusively talking about non-combat actions. Wearing armor and power attacking are both for COMBAT.
Second, I don't see any ability that fighters get that lets them be better blacksmiths. Commoner is an NPC class, they get exactly the same number of skill points as Fighters do. So a 3rd level Commoner can put exactly the same number of skill points into Craft (Blacksmith) as a Fighter can.
First off, the majority of things I listed off was an example of things the fighter could do at once. No, the fighter does not get any special powers that a commoner does not. He does gain the ability to have combat abilities via bonus feats while having the same option for out of combat things the commoner does. In effect, yes, he can do out of combat things the commoner can't, in that he can do more things than the commoner can.
The ability that makes him a better blacksmith is a feat called Skill Focus. Yes, a feat anyone can take. It's also a feat the fighter can take while gaining other feats the commoner cannot, simply due to not being able to take that many feats.
I also disagree about combat feats being exclusively useful in combat. I need to cut down a tree to cross a chasm. Power attack lets me do that quicker. An archery contest is held. Weapon Focus helps you win. Marathon. So on and so forth.
Does the fighter get extra special fighter abilities that no other class gets? Nope. The fighter gets the same options every other character gets in feats, yet he gets more of them.
Let's turn this around a bit. Tell me what a wizard can do that a commoner can't. Without using magic or magical abilities.
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fighter builds who can retain their combat effectiveness while contributing to out of combat challenges
I think the best way to achieve this is to combine either the Lore Warden or Tactician fighter archetypes with the human racial feats Fast Learner, Improvisation, and Improved Improvisation.
You end up with a character that is still very capable in battle, but has a wide variety of skills to attempt outside of combat. As this requires the investment of a 13 in intelligence, you might as well follow the rabbit all the way down the hole and go for combat expertise and all the fun stuff that depends upon it.
Also, some of those "combat" feats a fighter gets have cool effects that could be used out of combat, things like Dazzling Display, Haunted Gnome, and, Intimidating Prowess.
First off, the majority of things I listed off was an example of things the fighter could do at once. No, the fighter does not get any special powers that a commoner does not. He does gain the ability to have combat abilities via bonus feats while having the same option for out of combat things the commoner does. In effect, yes, he can do out of combat things the commoner can't, in that he can do more things than the commoner can.
The ability that makes him a better blacksmith is a feat called Skill Focus. Yes, a feat anyone can take. It's also a feat the fighter can take while gaining other feats the commoner cannot, simply due to not being able to take that many feats.
I also disagree about combat feats being exclusively useful in combat. I need to cut down a tree to cross a chasm. Power attack lets me do that quicker. An archery contest is held. Weapon Focus helps you win. Marathon. So on and so forth.
Does the fighter get extra special fighter abilities that no other class gets? Nope. The fighter gets the same options every other character gets in feats, yet he gets more of them.
Let's turn this around a bit. Tell me what a wizard can do that a commoner can't. Without using magic or magical abilities.
It's in the thread title. We're talking about OUT OF COMBAT abilities. So you keep bringing up in combat abilities means you don't understand what I'm getting at.
A wizard has a special ability of casting spells. That is relevant to the discussion, because it's a special ability that wizards have access to. Yes, some other classes get the same spells, or similar abilities through other means, but a wizard doesn't need to take a feat or spend skill points to gain access to those spells. They gain them inherently as part of their class, which is the point.
Wizards inherently gain a means of interacting with the game, outside of combat, due to their class.
I don't care whether or not that method is effective, or how effective. I don't care how specialized, or not specialized it is. The point is that they have an ability, spell casting, that grants them a way of contributing to problem solving outside of combat.
And they get it, just for being a wizard.
Tell me a fighter can't be useful outside of combat.
Go on.
The only limitations fighters have are the ones that the players set for themselves.
Tell me a fighter can't be useful outside of combat.
Go on.
I would be genuinely interested in seeing you get anywhere close to that without the Lore Warden archetype. That's a net loss of 14 skill points already just without it. 21 if he weren't another Human Lore Warden.
Which is what I said up thread...it can be done pretty well if you have a very specific combination of race and archetype with, and even then it's only on par with other classes at best.
The only limitations fighters have are the ones that the players set for themselves.
Ah, of course. I forgot Fighters could cast spells if only the players stopped limiting themselves.
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What about games that don't allow Lore Wardens?
Stuff like that should be core. I know that Lore Warden is a great stealth fix, but it's helping nothing people who play in games that don't use splatbooks (and let's face it, Lore Warden is tucked away in a very, very remote corner of the publishing line).
I should be able to build that gentleman/scholar Fighter right out of the Core Rulebook, without having to convince my GM that a book called Pathfinder Society Field Guide is actually essential to building a versatile skillfull Fighter.
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Here, let me summarize:
"Fighters suck!"
"Why?"
"Because all they can do is fight."
"Well, they do that better than anyone else and that's a key part of the game."
"They don't have any special abilities that other classes don't already have."
"But they have one special ability which lets them take a LOT more feats than other classes."
"Doesn't count, feats are feats."
"But they can take twice as many as another class."
"Feats are still feats."
"But with those extra feats I can do lots of things other than fight."
"You can't do anything with feats that any other class can't do."
"Sure I can, because at level 10 I can spend five feats on combat and have five general feats left over. Any other class is out of feats."
"Doesn't matter. Feats are feats."
"So, the problem isn't that the fighter can't be flexible and do all sorts of things, the problem is that it doesn't matter because they do it with feats instead of with special class abilities."
"Yeah."
"Oh. Well. Carry on then."
So, maybe the problem is with feats themselves, then, huh?
Fighters are the kings of feats, and Rogues are the kings of skills. However, feats and skills are both less useful than most class features, especially the ability to cast spells. If those things were more useful, getting lots of feats or skills would be more useful and those classes might be worth being.
Tell me a fighter can't be useful outside of combat.
I would never say a fighter can't be useful outside of combat. I would only say that other full-BAB classes are more useful than the fighter outside of combat, while remaining just as useful in combat.
For example, a Ranger could have all of your out of combat ability and more, and in combat, he's only worse than your character at combat maneuvers, which I don't find to be especially useful anyway.
I would be genuinely interested in seeing you get anywhere close to that without the Lore Warden archetype.
The ONLY difference between a lore warden and a normal fighter is two knowledge skills. The titles I posted above wouldn't have changed in the slightest if he wasn't a lore warden.
The only limitations fighters have are the ones that the players set for themselves.Ah, of course. I forgot Fighters could cast spells if only the players stopped limiting themselves.
You know very well that's not what I meant.
I would never say a fighter can't be useful outside of combat. I would only say that other full-BAB classes are more useful than the fighter outside of combat, while remaining just as useful in combat.
This may very well be true. However, many of those other classes are only situationally as useful in combat as the fighter. The fighter is always useful in combat, regardless of creature type, alignment, or amount of emotional turmoil. So the give and take nature of it all remains pretty balanced.
The main problem I see here is the fact that some people are too worried about what other classes have.
All you need to worry about is of the fighter provides you with what you need for your concept. If it doesn't then play something else.
Exactly.
Exactly.The main problem I see here is the fact that some people are too worried about what other classes have.
All you need to worry about is of the fighter provides you with what you need for your concept. If it doesn't then play something else.
I see we are in agreement.
The ONLY difference between a lore warden and a normal fighter is two knowledge skills. The titles I posted above wouldn't have changed in the slightest if he wasn't a lore warden.
If you want to be that way, I don't see Profession: Basket Weaver, Perform, or any Craft skill so "weaver", "showman", and "handyman" are already false advertising, and "soldier, hangman, and bodyguard" are kind of irrelevant to the discussion, and I'd hardly call him a marksman since he's specialized in Flails and such, he's more like a "pretty good shot I guess". As well, "guide" and "scout" kind of rely on the same skills so you're just stretching it with that, and the "Hedge Magician" has nothing to do with skills and everything to do with a cloak.
So really you're left with "Scholar, Athlete, Scout, and sneak" which isn't nearly as impressive of a list which is probably why you stretched it.
You know very well that's not what I meant.
I know but it's fun to purposefully misconstrue vague statements.
This may very well be true. However, many of those other classes are only situationally as useful in combat as the fighter. The fighter is always useful in combat, regardless of creature type, alignment, or amount of emotional turmoil. So the give and take nature of it all remains pretty balanced.
I still don't get where this comes from. The Fighter may have slightly more (like 1 or 2 more) to-hit/damage with some weapons and a few Feats to spare for some extra Combat Maneuvers...eventually, but a non-Raging Barbarian and a non-FE Ranger are still full BaB classes who likely have similar equipment (though less armor). The Ranger even has almost as many Feats, though his are more narrowly defined.
Rage and Favored Enemy just make them situationally BETTER than the Fighter, not situationally ON PAR.
The main problem I see here is the fact that some people are too worried about what other classes have.
All you need to worry about is of the fighter provides you with what you need for your concept. If it doesn't then play something else.
The problem is that there are very few usable concepts the Fighter can accomplish that another class can't.
He can definitely accomplish some very interesting and off the wall weapon-based builds (like dual wielding whips and such), but unless you're stretching like that the Fighter is either the "Boring, but practical" or the "Boring, but impractical" option compared to other classes.
He's just a boring class, features wise. Sure you can have interesting RP, but so can every class. It's the mechanics that make the game itself interesting, and he doesn't really bring much to the table features-wise for "keeping it fresh".
And this is somewhat of a tangent, but this has always bothered me from a logic perspective.
The Fighter is, archetypically, "That guy who trains his entire life to be the best he can be at fighting, soldiering, and anything else combat related". This is supposedly reflected by his skill list including Kn. Engineering (for carrying out sieges and such) and a few other skills (but not Perception because soldiers don't need to be aware of things oh wait). He is one of the "self-taught" classes which puts him at the very least at being a bit older than some other classes on average. He gets 2+Int skill points.
Meanwhile, the Barbarian who is archtypically either "Medieval hillbilly warrior who gets mad" or "That guy who picked up a sword, got really angry, and straight up wrecked a guy one day", who has NO formal training (an intuitive class), is on average YOUNGER than the Fighter, gets the Perception skill (though it DOES make sense for him to have it, don't get me wrong) and 4+Int skill points.
Why does the 16 year old, mostly uneducated rage machine, get more than the 18 year old, highly trained soldier?
I still don't get where this comes from. The Fighter may have slightly more (like 1 or 2 more) to-hit/damage with some weapons and a few Feats to spare for some extra Combat Maneuvers...eventually, but a non-Raging Barbarian and a non-FE Ranger are still full BaB classes who likely have similar equipment (though less armor). The Ranger even has almost as many Feats, though his are more narrowly defined.
Not to mention that the narrower scope of the Ranger's bonus feats is somewhat offset by the fact that some of the bonus feats offer early access and all of them ignore prerequisites. Stuff like an archer getting Improved Precise Shot at Level 6 as a Ranger while the fighter has to wait until level 11 can be huge. Especially since level six tends to see a lot more play than levels eleven and above.
I don't see Profession: Basket Weaver, Perform, or any Craft skill so "weaver", "showman", and "handyman" are already false advertising, and "soldier, hangman, and bodyguard" are kind of irrelevant to the discussion, and I'd hardly call him a marksman since he's specialized in Flails and such, he's more like a "pretty good shot I guess". As well, "guide" and "scout" kind of rely on the same skills so you're just stretching it with that, and the "Hedge Magician" has nothing to do with skills and everything to do with a cloak.
So really you're left with "Scholar, Athlete, Scout, and sneak" which isn't nearly as impressive of a list which is probably why you stretched it.
No false advertising at all. First, you need to remember that it's not just skills that make a character, it's everything that makes the character.
I don't need ranks in Profession (basketweaver). He has an infinite supply of twine and rope and 14 intelligence. He can take a 10 and get a 12 on any craft check, likely enough to weave a basked, hammock, or other simple item. Hence he is a weaver.
He is a "hangman" because he has easy access to ropes/garrotes and is rather adept at grappling thanks to his archetype (if he is enlarged, he could strangle a medium creature without even provoking). This not only alludes to possible combat tactics, but may actually be his day job (the guy who lawfully hangs prisoners).
With his max ranks in Acroabtics, he can absolutely be a showman, putting on a performance involving juggling, flips, balancing acts, and the like. Look it up. This is actually a thing within the rules.
He can easily modify his AC to be low or high (depending on whether he wants to avoid hits, or draw hits away from his charge). His ability to do this as well as to enlarge himself and put himself between a target and an assassin makes for a pretty effective bodyguard.
His ranged attack rolls are higher than most trained soldiers in the campaign world. That makes him an adept marksman.
Being a good guide and survivalist is all about his Survival skill. He can hunt and forage, avoid hazards, not get lost, tell the weather, find shelter, and bestow all these benefits to those around him. He can also follow tracks (oh yeah, that also makes him a tracker).
The only thing you need to be an effective scout is a decent Perception and Stealth skill. He does, so he can fill that role quite nicely.
Yes, he is a hedge magician because of the several magical powers he can demonstrate through his magical items, and also due to his ranks in Knowledge: Arcana. Though he doesn't possess it, another fighter could gain this title by investing in Use Magic Device.
Scholar obviously comes from his multiple knowledge skills.
So, where exactly am I being misleading? In the eyes of the campaign world he IS all of these things and more. His mechanics reflect all of it.
The Fighter may have slightly more (like 1 or 2 more) to-hit/damage with some weapons and a few Feats to spare for some extra Combat Maneuvers...eventually, but a non-Raging Barbarian and a non-FE Ranger are still full BaB classes who likely have similar equipment (though less armor). The Ranger even has almost as many Feats, though his are more narrowly defined.
Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus/Specialization, and Weapon Training are all things that you didn't account for and are not usually available to other types of characters. These bonuses, when taken together generally equal or exceed those granted to ranger, barbarian, or paladin. What's more, it's available pretty much all the time.*
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Also when it comes to feat chains other classes are more narrowly focused while the fighter can take on several at once.
A fighter can be as simple or as complex as a player wants it to be and to me that is a selling point. I can be anyone from Conan to King Arthur to the Grey Mouser all in one class.
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Why does the 16 year old, mostly uneducated rage machine, get more than the 18 year old, highly trained soldier?
Well I'm sure that when we kicked the Romans' asses 2000 years ago they asked themselves the same question ;)
The thing is that a fighter can be build as a highly trained soldier. But the fighter class can also be used to build an uneducated brawler from the street, an uncivilized barbarian or even a ranger (as a general concept). So to me, a fighter is just a template for "someone who fights".
Now I'm not arguing your specific points (in my mind, a fighter SHOULD HAVE Perception as a class skill and he surely should have more skill points than a barbarian).
But still you can do those multi-functional fighters and I don't care one bit if they are comparable to what you can do with other classes (especially as I think that most of the other classes are way too strong and should be nerfed heavily; but that's aside the point). And from a roleplaying perspective, it may make more sense to build a concept with the fighter than with say, a barbarian. Because historically speaking, not every barbarian in world history had the rage powers adscribed to the norse berserkers.
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I did account for Weapon Training, that's the extra +1-2 hit and damage unless we're talking level 15 and up. Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon focus add up to a whopping +3 to-hit and +4 damage (GWS doesn't come up until 12th level) on the Barbarian or Ranger, yes, but that's hardly an overwhelming advantage, and even if it were the Barbarian can largely make up the difference for 22+Con rounds per day (making up all but 1 damage by 11th) while gaining a massive increase to HP and a respectable increase to Will saves that the Fighter will not be able to catch up to, period. He also probably has the capability to move and full attack, which is always nice, or to add an extra 1d6 (2d6 for one round, of 2 different types) energy damage to his weapon which make sup the rest of the damage quite nicely in a pinch.
Meanwhile the Ranger is behind in more circumstances since he can't just turn his equalizer on and off at will, but by level 10 he's got +6 to-hit/damage against his main Favored Enemy, beating out the Fighter by about as much as he beats the Barbarian. And it's not a sure thing, granted, but if you know what you're getting into you can pretty well pick your main Favored Enemy as the thing you fight 60% of the time or better.
I'll admit, my math was a bit off here, since the difference really DOES just bump them up to "about the same".
Still, they get more skills for free and are thus able to allocate more points into their to-hit/damage stat than your skill monkey Fighter, making up at least a portion of that difference just from character creation.
And taking away the Pally's weapon doesn't really hurt him as much as the others. He can pick up a knobby stick off the ground and turn it into the "+3 Improvised Club of Justice" and kick ass just fine.
I didn't include Paladin in the buddy club because his "Lol ur ded bro" button only comes up like 4 times per day instead of the Barbarian's 26 or so and the Ranger's "Whenever I fight this".
The main problem I see here is the fact that some people are too worried about what other classes have.
All you need to worry about is if the fighter provides you with what you need for your concept. If it doesn't then play something else.
I'm sorry, did I break your "only post in Shallowsouls threads if you agree with him" rule?
I think the Fighter class could be strengthened as a concept by adding something that is non-combat orientated, but reflects their combat training.
Professional boxers, MMA-fighers, heck even football players, look at life a little differently than people who don't do those things. There are still differences amongst them, but their training, focus and physicality of their lives changes their perspective.
That is not reflected in the Fighter class at all.
Generic class is generic.
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It's kind of funny how the argument is essentially that it takes a combination of all the other classes to come near to what the fighter can do.
I'll go ahead and make the argument that UMD overshadows spellcasting. A class with UMD could essentially cast any and all spells. You won't find any spellcasting class that can do that.
There is nothing a spellcaster can do that a class with UMD can't.