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In response to this post from James:
The idea of an environment book in the hardcover line is, in fact, one that several folks at Paizo are pretty lukewarm on, so letting us know that you'd like us to do a hardcover environment book can only help.
(I'm not one of those, though... having helped launch the environment hardcovers with Frostburn for WotC, I'm pretty sure that this is a solid idea for a hardcover—probably one that focuses on ALL environments though, since the rulebooks are world-neutral and because we do more monster books than 3.5 did, and therefore putting monsters in a hardcover rulebook might not work...)
I'd like to express my support for a hardcover rule book focused on differing environments and other facets of exploring/travelling/survival. I would imagine it including/expanding on the arctic/jungle/etcetera survival mechanics from the various APs and also covering some of the same territory as the frostburn/etcetera WotC books (though not rehashing those mechanics - id prefer a clean slate approach). Perhaps a more involved tracking/hunting subsystem. Fleshing out of some of the outdoorsy skills. Some new survival equipment for a variety of terrains. A couple of archetypes? Some natural and supernatural hazards/traps. Maybe even a bestiary?
I think there'd be a lot of value having one place to go for that stuff (and would broaden the palette, so to speak, for mechanics to utilise in future APs and modules - avoiding the need for coming up with new subsystems within the context of a product on a monthly schedule).
Interesting.
As long as there is more frost/ice/alpine/snow/tundra/taiga/boreal crap... my Montana living butt is happy. Just as I moved here for the climate, I can't wait for more stuff based on the climate.
Swamps too... hey, I did live in Florida and Louisiana for nearly 2 decades....
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Interesting. If it's done right I'd want it. Some other ideas:
* hexcrawl/sandbox support: like how to handle random encounter difficulties
* navigation rules with a difficulty scale that's steep enough that it lasts beyond level 3
* foraging rare herbs, minerals, animals
* environmental difficulties that are really different for each terrain; maybe a bunch of terrain encounters for each terrain type?
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I concur with what Steve Geddes wrote.
I would like to see(or be pointed to if it already exits) coverage on how hard ranged attacks in the woods or Jungle is. Often, maps do not show where every tree is, just that these squares are a different type of terrain. Should ranged attacks be penalized in such terrain?
The more and more I think about it, the more I'm convinced we could do a hardback in the Campaign Setting Line for this. I don't know if we could do 285 pages of environment, but a book on it would be great. Some things including:
- Expanded Weather and Climate
- Expanded Obstacles and Hazards
- More Natural/Unnatural Disasters. Compile the other ones too and maybe expand them.
- Other Dangers, such as disease and poison
- A bestiary at the end that contains creatures from mentioned locales.
- Reprinting of the Kingmaker Exploration Hex rules. Might actually see this is Ultimate Campaign.
- Surviving in the wilderness.
- Unnatural terrain and climates. Maybe Planewarped Wastes or Magic Scarred Barrens.
- Gear to survive the different extremes.
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I would love a nice PF equivalent of Frostburn / Stormwrack / Sandstorm. Even if it's just one big environment book, giving us expanded rules on long-term environmental effects and ways to modify existing material into environ-specific material (like the Boreal template in Irrisen).
Interesting. If it's done right I'd want it. Some other ideas:
* hexcrawl/sandbox support: like how to handle random encounter difficulties
* navigation rules with a difficulty scale that's steep enough that it lasts beyond level 3
* foraging rare herbs, minerals, animals
* environmental difficulties that are really different for each terrain; maybe a bunch of terrain encounters for each terrain type?
That all sounds good to me too. :)
The more and more I think about it, the more I'm convinced we could do a hardback in the Campaign Setting Line for this. I don't know if we could do 285 pages of environment, but a book on it would be great. Some things including:
- Expanded Weather and Climate
- Expanded Obstacles and Hazards
- More Natural/Unnatural Disasters. Compile the other ones too and maybe expand them.
- Other Dangers, such as disease and poison
- A bestiary at the end that contains creatures from mentioned locales.
- Reprinting of the Kingmaker Exploration Hex rules. Might actually see this is Ultimate Campaign.
- Surviving in the wilderness.
- Unnatural terrain and climates. Maybe Planewarped Wastes or Magic Scarred Barrens.
- Gear to survive the different extremes.
This too. (Though I think you're right that the kingmaker rules are in ultimate campaign).
My preference is generally for golarion-specific stuff, however I think this might require a broader audience, plus it would be easier to fit into the RPG line product schedule. It seems to me that putting hardcovers into the campaign line usually creates headaches for them.
The more and more I think about it, the more I'm convinced we could do a hardback in the Campaign Setting Line for this. I don't know if we could do 285 pages of environment, but a book on it would be great. Some things including:
- Expanded Weather and Climate
- Expanded Obstacles and Hazards
- More Natural/Unnatural Disasters. Compile the other ones too and maybe expand them.
- Other Dangers, such as disease and poison
- A bestiary at the end that contains creatures from mentioned locales.
- Reprinting of the Kingmaker Exploration Hex rules. Might actually see this is Ultimate Campaign.
- Surviving in the wilderness.
- Unnatural terrain and climates. Maybe Planewarped Wastes or Magic Scarred Barrens.
- Gear to survive the different extremes.This too. (Though I think you're right that the kingmaker rules are in ultimate campaign).
My preference is generally for golarion-specific stuff, however I think this might require a broader audience, plus it would be easier to fit into the RPG line product schedule. It seems to me that putting hardcovers into the campaign line usually creates headaches for them.
Well, for Golarion specific, the only two places I can think of that are fairly "special" are the Worldwound and the Mana Wastes. Which, one could scratch off the serial numbers and make them Planewarped (Abyss) and Magic Scarred respectively.
Also, include oceans into this. I loved the article in Skull and Shackles about the Oceans of Golarion.
EDIT: And while I'm thinking about it, a guide to how terrain and climate affect one another and how to map it. Things like deserts on the rain shadow of a mountain range, or island types (continental land or made from volcano). That way, you don't have jungles that suddenly open up to deserts or tundras.
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I am going to second pretty much everything here. I also want a better random encounter system for wilderness exploration. Something that is expanded to include more than just monsters.
For example
- Non-combat monsters
- NPCs
- Hazards
- Discoveries
I would also like to see the hex exploration expanded a bit. The simplicity in Kingmaker is nice, but I would like a bit more randomness. For example, when they explore and map the hex, have a chance of them finding things like a resource, NPC, or lair instead of those things just being laid out already.
I also would like environment rules that I can actually use. The ones in the Core Rulebook only affect lower level characters, and are mostly hand waved after a time. A better weather system would help with this, as well as expanded weather hazards. I know ice storms are not included, and those are just downright dangerous.
Of course, more magic items and equipment is always nice, but things that can be used.
The caravan rules could also be expanded in a book like this, as well as offering a section on adventuring caravans. These caravans would follow the party as they do hex exploration or adventuring. Something on how to handle them would be good.
+1 to what everyone in here said. Not only would I pick up this book, several gamers I know would as well.
Eeyup. Nothing new to add, except that my crew would buy this.
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I'd like to express my interest (and maybe this is Ultimate campaign), for the GM side of this. How to better implement the hexcrawl would be valuable.
The old Wilderness Survival Guide would be a possible starting point.
+1
Without a doubt I would, at the very least, purchase a PDF of a book like this.
My wallet is prepared
Would expanded parts on different planes be good in a book like this? I'd love to see some more planar exploration stuff.
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I think an "Environment" Card Deck would be a good seller, with each card detailing the mods and effects for each environment (ie- "Dense Undergrowth"; 4x move cost, difficult terrain, encounter range 2xd10 x 10 feet, with a drawing of the terrain for visualization)
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Wilderness Survival Guide and Dungeoneers Survival Guide redux!
AD&D Classics :)
I think an "Environment" Card Deck would be a good seller, with each card detailing the mods and effects for each environment (ie- "Dense Undergrowth"; 4x move cost, difficult terrain, encounter range 2xd10 x 10 feet, with a drawing of the terrain for visualization)
Be a great tie-in to release both in the same month as per recent trends (which I find a great value-add to my subscriptions).
Would expanded parts on different planes be good in a book like this? I'd love to see some more planar exploration stuff.
Being an "ultimate" book, I think it would fit in we'll. although differing planar environments might be big enough to warrant its own book. I'm not sure.
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Kinda getting a bit over the word 'ultimate' being added all the time though, just saying.
Until we get LARGE bear animal companions anyhow, then that book can be Ultimate.
As I understand things it's meant to be indicative of being "the final word" on a topic. I take your point, but I can't really think of anything better to convey that idea - any branding becomes tired and irritating once you've heard it enough.
EDIt: not that I particularly care about the title, of course. A paizo take on the old environment books is what I'd be keen to see, no matter what they call it.
I would buy it. Those were some of my fav 3.5 books.
A book to define the Material plane, the environs within, and how those environs affect adventuring; then a second book on the other planes that modify/build on that baseline.
I like this. Plus, random encounter tables for everywhere! I'm always ripping through all the APs trying to find appropriate encounter rambles for my roving PCs. There was a good "wild and something" book from Sword & Sorcery in 3e days that have areas ELs so you knew how "bad" an area was..,
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Big +1 here.
I would especially interested on more involved exploration and travel rules especial if they involve delegation of various roles to party members such as guide, lookout, animal handler, etc with actions and skill checks for each one.
IMO this would help players create parties that did not solely focus on performing well as a team in combat but also when interacting with the world environment.
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Kinda getting a bit over the word 'ultimate' being added all the time though, just saying.
Until we get LARGE bear animal companions anyhow, then that book can be Ultimate.
Ultimate Grizzly: Everything you need to know about getting the biggest, meanest, HAIRIEST bear in the whole damn world.
Fund it. Fund it now!
Perhaps, if they included more fantastical environments as well as the mundane ones - e.g. undead forests, storms of divine wrath, acid geysers, carnivorous bogs, etc.
A hardcover Pathfinder guide to hiking and camping wouldn't be very exciting.
I would imagine those more fantastical things would be covered too. Perhaps the mundane stuff is a function of game style - I prefer very low magic campaigns (pathfinder beyond 5th level gets a little silly for me), so different challenges are needed for different groups, I guess.
+1 from Tigard, OR!
The AP crew has put out the occasional supplemental article on exploration, running travel, disaster, high altitude/alpine environs, cold environments, etc.
So it wouldn't even require a great deal of brand new material. Much like Ultimate Campaign tugs on some of the subsystems presented in the APs (kingdom building in particular), Ultimate Exploration could be one-stop shopping for the other goodies, and a platform for expansion and addition.
Frostburn and Sandstorm were really good books. But they had a fair amount of page-filler (set piece encounters, etc) that Paizo could have a chance to make better use of.
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I concur with what Steve Geddes wrote.
I would like to see(or be pointed to if it already exits) coverage on how hard ranged attacks in the woods or Jungle is. Often, maps do not show where every tree is, just that these squares are a different type of terrain. Should ranged attacks be penalized in such terrain?
What I do for woods is keep a pile of 1p & 2p coins that I can scatter across the battlemat to represent the trees.
Also, I would like this book.
I am going to second pretty much everything here. I also want a better random encounter system for wilderness exploration. Something that is expanded to include more than just monsters.
For example
- Non-combat monsters
- NPCs
- Hazards
- Discoveries
This.
This would be a definite "buy" for me. I still remember using the Outdoor Survival rules (from the AH game) in original D&D while exploring. And the environment books from WotC (Frostburn, Stormwrack, etc.) were some of my favorite 3.5 books. In fact the Dungeoneers and Wilderness Survival Guides were my favorite 1E expansion books. Getting it all in one HC would be a bonus.
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Running Kingmaker right now, I would love to see something a little "procedural" to ease the burden of GMing.
For example, when the party enters any hex, there are a half dozen things I need to keep in mind: time to cross the hex, landmarks, hidden site DCs, encounter chance, encounter type if it happens, encounter starting distances (which are missing from the core but would be really helpful in Kingmaker), etc.
All that camping, consuming rations and feed (can they graze horses and forage), stuff like that. We're dealing with these issues in my own campaign, and it IS possible to make it more fun than mere paperwork.
This is why a not-just-creature random encounter table is such a great idea. Sometimes it can be as simple as one of your mounts hurting its foot.
Some system to hunt and gather.
And to make something out of the rawitems.
I.e. some monsterhunter feeling ;)
Running Kingmaker right now, I would love to see something a little "procedural" to ease the burden of GMing.
For example, when the party enters any hex, there are a half dozen things I need to keep in mind: time to cross the hex, landmarks, hidden site DCs, encounter chance, encounter type if it happens, encounter starting distances (which are missing from the core but would be really helpful in Kingmaker), etc.
All that camping, consuming rations and feed (can they graze horses and forage), stuff like that. We're dealing with these issues in my own campaign, and it IS possible to make it more fun than mere paperwork.
This is why a not-just-creature random encounter table is such a great idea. Sometimes it can be as simple as one of your mounts hurting its foot.
There was a poster on the Kingmaker forum that had compiled files of each chapter's random encounter table with its quests (the first three chapters, at least). I printed these out with a copy of the chapter's map, hole-punched them and put them in front of each chapter's notes -- and on top of the random encounter table, I penned down the maximum encounter distances of the terrains. For maximum speed, hole-punch the pages so that you can open your notes so the map is on one side and the random encounter table is on the opposite side.
My standard operating procedure was that the party tells me which hex they're entering, rolls for encounters (roll on random encounter chart; determine maximum encounter distance; proceed with encounter), I reference if there's anything in the hex (declare a landmark / ask for a skill check to discover), then another random encounter roll for spending the night.
I just memorized the rates for entering a square and searching / camping, but they could be written on the bottom of the map. Additionally, it occurs to me now that I could have just circle the icons of the Landmark locations so I knew them at a glance.
Traveling, searching time and rations wasn't really a concern. The party all had good speeds, most of which didn't require horses. The party wilderness-specialist was quickly able to gather enough food for the whole party.
Hmmm. I wasn't making him move at half speed for that ...
I'm really interested in supernatural weather. I wish I'd used more weather in Kingmaker, especially given the slanted challenges my party had with the opponents, who usually didn't fly and/or weren't sentient.
I'm really interested in supernatural weather. I wish I'd used more weather in Kingmaker, especially given the slanted challenges my party had with the opponents, who usually didn't fly and/or weren't sentient.
Right, that's something I do is random weather for each day in KM. Ironically, I forgot to mention it in my list of things that I sometimes forget.
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I'll put my vote in for such a book.
Arctic
Tundra
Mountains
Desert
Hills
Forest
Savannah
Aquatic
Deep Aquatic
Underground
Now, on top of those, I'd really like :
Arctic should really be a template applied to other environments, for example, the North Pole would be basically Arctic Desert (no open water, no plants, no shade, etc).
I'd also like templates of other types (celestial, infernal, necromantic, etc) for each environment, which just gives rules mods for the environment to be mixed with these.
No new races. Possibly some archetypes based on extreme environments (arctic, desert, aquatic, deep aquatic). No new classes.
Totally agree with "not just encounter" tables. And there should be chances for someone to use Survival/Kno:Nature to know what's around and reduce (or increase, I guess) the chance of encounter -like any smart woodsman can tell when he's in bear country and knows how to avoid drawing them.
I've designed my own hex crawl rules by turning Varisia into a 3miles/hex map and creating random events by terrain and then by event type e.g. lairs, caravans, bandits, npcs, farms, shrines, camping at night, old graveyards, ruins, wandering monsters.
Some events are non-combat and simply 'things you see beyond the ordinary' sort of stuff, some are potential combat encounters, some are mini-adventures e.g a smallish dungeon beneath a ruin with a mini-storyline, and some are larger adventures but none lasting longer than a day.
What I was and am still struggling with are event ideas, though I have found some great ideas on rpg sites and come up with a few myself. What I would love to see in an exploration book is ideas for exploration events/mini-encounters which are not merely wandering monsters, so they have some fluff and storyline. For example 'you come across a farm and xxxx'; you approach the stone circle on top of the small hillock you have been heading towards the last hour, and xxxx'.
I thought the Gamesmastery Guide might have more of this sort of stuff and was disappointed it didn't, though it did have some ideas 'for things you see by the side of the road' which I've incorporated into my system as an event type.
But I would buy this book anyway because I buy all core rules books.
Several things I'd like:
1) Relatively low-level stuff ("how does this work in the mundane world"), with notes on how it works with support by magic, and then how it works with higher-level magic.
For instance: some information on how ships work, the differences between sailing ships and galleys/rowboats (with some notes on how to make use of these in an adventure), and then how to beat some of the common problems with low-level magic (e.g., gust of wind for a temporary breeze in combat to move your sailing ship, or how a cleric with create food and drink can make much longer voyages practical), and then how mid/high-level magic works (e.g., controlling weather to sail where you want, some of the things that might show up on high-powered ships -- e.g., how to protect your ship against fireballs and warp wood and other common tactics). Not just first-order effects, but second-order effects (e.g., if most wizards have fireballs, most navies will have some kind of fire resistance built into their warships, and what this sort of thing does for trade? Or if there are a lot of clerics around creating stuff, maybe storerooms and water barrels aren't so big a part of ship designs.)
Differences in high-magic and low-magic worlds for this sort of thing would be important.
There should be some suggestions on how to handle basic magic -- e.g., how do you do a desert crawl with create water floating around, or an epic survival adventure when endure elements is a first-level spell. (This is also something for adventure design -- any adventure where "common magic of levels 1-3 bypasses entire adventure" needs to be rethought, and some advice on these issues would be handy.)
2) The main book is pretty good on basic environments. Include environments that challenge higher-level play (and REALLY avoid the temptation to have one spell that just makes all the problems go away, because then why bother playing in that environment at all? Either you have the spell and it's just regular, or the spell gets dispelled and then you die.) -- for instance, water breathing is really helpful for underwater adventures, but it doesn't solve movement problems, visibility problems, etc., and there are various other ways to handle the difficulties.
For instance, high altitude, outer space, deep high-pressure water environments -- also a lot of the sorts of stuff that the three 3.5 environment books covered.
3) A really good look at aerial adventures and how things work in three dimensions. With lots of examples. And non-magical ways to do stuff (various flyers, parachutes, aerial tactics, things like that). Things like flying castles (and how to disable them, and what happens when you do) or platforms like that.
How to deal with (say) wall spells or moving platforms in combat.
And definitely think about the use of magic and second-order effects (e.g., if everyone uses flying mounts, how common will parachutes, rings of feather falling, and that sort of thing be?)
4) Notes to GMs on the differences that happen with different environment types, and how to use these to advantage in adventure design.
5) Some better stuff on diseases and how epidemics might work (e.g., the writeup in Curse of the Crimson Throne #2).
6) Advice on writing random encounter tables (a generic set wouldn't be bad, but something tailored for individual worlds and campaigns). Advice to GMs on how to use random encounter tables.
I note the overland movement rates in the CRB are completely silent on movement rates per hour on flying creatures, for example :p
I would buy this
This would definitely be top on my list to buy