Alter Fritz's page

@ Quandary
Thanks for your thoughts^^. I am glad to see that my way of thinking isn't totally abnormal. I haven't made my opinion about Garund. But I like your take on Orsiani.
I also thoughed off Imperial Taldan as a bureaucratic language of Taldor and a scholars language. But after reading the Vigil entry in Cities off Golarion, I think that Imperial Taldan is still very common in Lastwall.

Yeah the thought about Nirmathian was born first of the fact that Nirmathas was setteld by ethnical Varisians (The map in Humans of Golarion). End second that the threat from Molthune could trigger a Nirmathian identity complte with it'S own language.

I have made also some thoughts on the slavic names in Brevoy and so on. Again I think they came together with Baba Yaga into this world. But why should they take slavic Names from a witchreal some hundreds of kilometers away?
The answer I came up is fassion. I know at first it might seem ridiculous. But suddenlly there is a total different and exotic new culture. So why when in our world names from different and far away cultures became popular why not also in Golarion? I mean for exapmle Alexander is Greek, Jasmin is Turkish and they are very common in northern Europe (and have been since ages).

@ Jeven
You are right but there is a veryx important factor you are missing. The Quran. It is THE holy book and it is written in Arabic. In former times the way to get education and to lrean to write was in a Quranschool. That is the reason why you can travall the whole islamic world and come through by speaking only onw language. You don't have something like that in Golarion.

@Chris Kenney
I think it greatly depends on the group of players. My players simply love it, beacause it gives them the feel of a living world. And a certain sense of wonder if they come to a new land and they don't understand a word. Or only can communicate with Common Taldan witch has 3000 words (Like the common English which is spoken through our world).

And just by comparison. Our world has something of about 6000 to 7000 languages ;)

I don't think so, we talk about 1400 years of separation. I know for sure I can't understand dutch, or swiss German. And they are only on their own for less than 500 years.
French and Italian are also from the same languagetree (Romance languages). The Western Roman Empire existed till the 5 cen. A.D.. And today Italian and French are very different languages.

Little Introduction

I am the sole GM of my group. And also English is not my native language so I am sorry for any mistakes^^".
I love Golarion, well at least most of it. What I didn't liked is the simplified way languages were treated. Here are some thoughts I made about languages in Avistan for my Golarion.
I made language trees which I will show you. To understand a language which is 1 step (this lines ---) away you need a DC 15 check in Linguistic to understand it. Each step further away increases the DC by 5.
For example it is really hard for a wandering Varisian, that doesn't know any Ustlavic, to understand modern Ustlavic. Onestep to Old Wandering Varisian, one step to Old Ustlavic and one final step to modern Ustlavic, is a DC 25 check.

Here is the Language tree for Varisian

Old (Wandering) Varisian (dead/no written language)
|
|
|----->Old Ustlavic(dead)------->Ustlavic+Wood Varisian (Nirmathian)
|
|
|
|----->Wandering Varisian------->Coastal Varisian

Varisian
At the beginning all Varisians were wanderers. But from – 3708 there was a great problem: The Hold of Belkzen. Another great change came when the Varisians north of Lake Encarthan began to make permanent settlements. They were united by Soividia Ustav and the country of Ustalav was born. With one country and a more or less stable government it is only logic that a new language developes: Old Ustlavic. After some thousand years this language would have farther developed into today’s Ustlavic. Recently with with the war those Varisians south of the Path River needed more symbols to differ from their enemies of Chelix and Molthune. A common language is the way. So came (slowly) the language of Nirmathian into existence. Those Varisians which where still wanderers kept more or less their language. Although there several different dialects Wandering Varisian is a very coherent language.
With the influence of Chelaxian settlers in Varisia and with them the establishment of permanent settlements, especially along the coast, the Wandering Varisian developed farther into the Coastal Varisian you hear from Korvosa over Magnimar to Riddleport.

So it is very hard for a Varisian from Korvosa to understand a Varisian from Caliphas. And while most wandering Varisians understand and speak their host language, for example Ustlavic, it is nearly impossible for a peasant in Ustalav to understand those wanders when they talk in their native tongue. A fact which adds a lot of suspicion and distrust.

Skald
Skald hadn't so much developed into a lot of differnet languages, because it is largly spoken only by the Ulfen of the Linnormkingdoms, which always were in close contact to each other, so while there are many dialects, everyone understands each other. The only exceptions are the Skald of Irrisen, and Issia. The Skald of Irrisen is more or less the Old Skald combined with a little Slavic (yes Slavic, I come to this later). The Skald spoken in Issia hav been separeted from its “homeland” for quite a long time. And the last 200 years the language of the ruling House has been Kellid, which why it had an influence on today’s Issian.

Ancient Skald (dead/no written language)

Old Skald (dead)
|
|
|----->Modern Skald
|
|
|----->Irrisen Skald
|
|
|----->Issian (East Skald)

Hallit
Modern Hallit consitst of two languages Westhallit and Sarkosian(Easthallit). While Easthallit has, like every language that has no central government to regulate it, a lot of different dialects the influence Sarkosis had was enough to make a somewhat standardised way of speaking. 100 years after Sarkosis fall you can still hear this Sarkosian from Mendev over Numeria to the Riverkingdoms. But it is likely, that with the influence of the crusaders in Mendev and their written(!) Taldan there will be changes in the linguistic landscape. The only other Hallit in Golarion is the Westhallit, which is spoken by the Kellidclans west of the Tuskmountains.

Ancient Hallit (dead/no written language)
|
|
|
v
Old Hallit (dead/no written language)
|
|
|----->Westhallit(no written language)
|
|
|----->Sarkosian (Easthallit)(no written language)

Old Slavic
Yes I know there is nothing written in official Paizostuff about Old Slavic being part of the languages of Golarion. But it is pretty clear that the Baba Yaga in Golarion is the same Baba Yaga as on Earth. That means for me, that the language of her daughters is the language of Baba Yaga. I.e. Old Slav. And why shouldn't the winter witches make Old Slav their official government language? We see that Slavic sounding names are pretty much the fashion. Mind you I don't think that the normal population speaks it. Just the top 1% the Jadwigas and so on.

Taldan
With the spread of Taldors armies came also the spread of its language. On Empire one language. This is why Imperial Taldan is considered the common tongue. This Imperial Taldan is still considered the lingua france although in a very simplified form. Only the burocrats of Taldor still uses Imperial in its pure Form. Another influential offspring is Chelaxian, which is spoken in Cheliax, Isger, Molthune, the Druma, the coast of Varisia, Sargava and Nidal. In Galt there was a movement to get rid of this “foreign” language and after some hot debates and even a few murders the linguists came up with a new old form of Taldan (this is why all Galtans have a heavy french accent in my world^^). The Riverkingdoms speak Imperial, while Rostland developed its own form of it. Taldor itself speaks modern Taldan. This Version is also spoken in Andoran, manly because even under Chelaxian Overlordship it was geographically and economically closer to Taldor than to Cheliax.

Ancient Taldan (dead/no written language)
|
|
|
|
v
Old Taldan(dead)
|
|
|
|
v
Imperial Taldan
|
|
|----->Chelaxian----->Galtish
|
|
|----->Common (simple Taldan)
|
|
|----->Modern Taldan
|
|
|----->Rostish

So instead of just 4 human languages there are now 15 which I find a lot more logical for a whole continent. And as a bonus effect Linguistic as a skill is more important roleplaywise.

What are your thoughts on this system?

I GM right now a group with a N human Cleric of Gorum, also at Lvl 4.
He took 3 lvls in Cleric and one in Rogue (the last for the skillpoints and the flanking dmg and the Ref)

His Domains are War and Destruction though.

What the main diverence is, that he took channel smite and negativ channeling. If he crits he does with his greatsword (inkl. channel smite and flanking) 7d6+6 dmg. Not that bad.

His stats are
STR 14
DEX 10
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 13

His feats are: Thoughness, Channel Smite, Iron Will

Don't know how much this actually helps. But maybe it will give you a little inspiration.

Why do the people of Golarion keep burying their dead instead of burning their corpses?

I mean a lot of problems with the undead would be solved.

Why not having one local humans civilasation riding, living and fighting together with Centaurs?

After reading the whole thread some things come into my mind

Iomedae makes me laugh a bit. She starts her divine career as a replacement for another gods herald that got killed off, and then when her patron god bites it too, she has to step up and fill even bigger shoes.

Maybe that was her plan from the beginning? Maybe she is the god of Deception and is a evil goddess?

Like I said I read the whole thread so some things made me chuckle

I get that Milani is the most popular 'lesser' diety on Golarion, but even Iomedae, patron of chivalry and honor and paladins, doesn't have 'glorious suicide' stamped all over her like that.

in combination with this

Milani - hello, patron deity of Poland

But back to serious business

+1 for 'Art and Culture of the Inner Sea Region'.

Great title!

Does anyone know at this point what content this book will finally have?

There is very little information for those that started with D&D/PF only recently.

Yeah, the thread title doesn't exactly advertise that this discussion is in the context of organized play.

@Alter Fritz - When reading some of the negative replies to your post, please be aware that folks were reading your post in the context of PFS organized play, where the kind of things you talked about are forbidden (with good reason). In a home game, I don't think most people would call that "cheating". :)

Jep I have found this thread in the Messageboardsidebar. I haven't realised that this is a PFS disscusion.

My comment was only for the context of home games.

I cheat. If I feal in a Bossfight that it is to easy for my players I give the boss more HP.
I roll always behind the screen and if I roll too bad, sometimes the 7 turns into a 17.
But never to crush the players, just to make sure that afterwards they breath out and are happy they overcame a real tough enemy.
I simply think that the rules serv the players/GM not the other way round.

Okay what will the players do when Paizo brings up a 2nd Ed?

1.They go with the change
2.They say f$%& you and stay with the old one

Customer loyalty is a precious resource. And with a 2nd Ed Paizo would lose some. With the rival (D&D next) just at the horizont Paizo can not lose any of it because "Hey we need something new to get money".

I love Pathfinder for what it is and not for what it could/should/I want to be.
No system is perfect, but no system is. And you will always have people that will complain. I you want something different then play something different. There is no devil behind you screaming "PLAY PATHFINDER OR I'LL EAT YOUR SOUL".

What Paizo could do is:
Redesign the Corerulebook (It works for me wonders, but if some of you have issues with it, it is okay)

Make a whole new game. Not a game that is within the sword and sorcery genre. But a new game with a new setting, where the rules fit the setting.
I could really imagine myself GMing a game within a Final Fantasy kind of universe. Or something totally different. I think they have the people that are creative enough to create a total new thing.

That said I would have no problems when at some day Paizo comes up with "Hei guys this will be the last last rulesupplement book we will do for PF. It is finished." They could still produce their exellent APs, they could still expand their awesome world Golarion. And they would have some resources free to do the "New Thing".

I could have also started this post with I have a dream...

Shut up and take my money!

Will there be major natural changes in Golarion over the years? Like Wars reshaping the borders as we know it?
Molthune overcomes Nirmathas. Or Cheliax goes into a major war with Andoran.

That would be stuff for some badass APs.
I mean it happens, but only within a small frame.
Ameiko tells at the beginning of Jade Regant about some friends she had two years ago. Some of the most exeptional individuals she ever met. And they went of into the mountains and never came back.

The "problem" I have is that the players always preserv things, they preserv the structure of the world and do not change it.
Of course you can always change it yourself for your small group. But like I hinted above, I would like to see some change coming from a AP, or something like that. Your opinion James?

Some system to hunt and gather.
And to make something out of the rawitems.
I.e. some monsterhunter feeling ;)

I always thoughed that Cheliaxian have a very British accent.
Maybe Taldor is a better place.

Some merchant style AP. You start with nothing more than a donkey or a little shop and try to tackle the big ones out there (Taldan princes, Durma Merchants and of course Aspis Agants). Intrigues and spionage and so on together with rules for buying - selling, investments for caravans, ships.

A evil AP. You start as agants from chelix and try to infiltrate into Andora. At the end there would be a full scale invasion and victory for Cheliax! (The net AP could be about gurillia warfare in Andora)

Journey to Vudra and Casmaron would be okay I think.

"Requires the use of Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved"

How so? Is it unplayable without?