Fun fact about this trait, it's a Region trait, not a Race trait, so humans can take it too!
Apparently there are some half-dwarves walking around golarion...
Wut. It's a race-specific regional treat for dwarves. Assuming it's Glory of Old we're talking about.
Wut. It's a race-specific regional treat for dwarves. Assuming it's Glory of Old we're talking about.Fun fact about this trait, it's a Region trait, not a Race trait, so humans can take it too!
Apparently there are some half-dwarves walking around golarion...
That's the fun part. Traits only have one Category. In this case, the category is Region (Five Kings Mountain, I think), not Race. So any character from that region can have it, not just dwarves.
That's the fun part. Traits only have one Category. In this case, the category is Region (Five Kings Mountain, I think), not Race. So any character from that region can have it, not just dwarves.Wut. It's a race-specific regional treat for dwarves. Assuming it's Glory of Old we're talking about.Fun fact about this trait, it's a Region trait, not a Race trait, so humans can take it too!
Apparently there are some half-dwarves walking around golarion...
Oh, wow! 8|
And if it were a race trait, you could take it with Adopted. :D
That's the fun part. Traits only have one Category. In this case, the category is Region (Five Kings Mountain, I think), not Race. So any character from that region can have it, not just dwarves.Wut. It's a race-specific regional treat for dwarves. Assuming it's Glory of Old we're talking about.Fun fact about this trait, it's a Region trait, not a Race trait, so humans can take it too!
Apparently there are some half-dwarves walking around golarion...
That's questionable, since they're listed as "Dwarf Regional Traits" rather than just Regional Traits.
The problem is: the paladin get feats too. Actually, he gets AS MUCH non combat feats as the fighter does. DId you take Skill focus UMD? The paladin did too, and can actually use a lot of items without rolling (Cure Light Wound Wands, for example). Did you get Skill focus Diplomacy? The paladin did too (and he has diplomacy as a class skill, BTW). Did you learn a lot of languages through high intelligence and ranks in Linguistics? The paladin did too.
The paladin gets as much verstaility in out of combat feats than the fighter. Exactly the same feats. The difference, though, is that when you substract points from CON or STR to raise your INT and CHA as a fighter, you are reducing your combat prowess, to increase out of combat versatility...
and here is the counter to your counter. immunity to charms? fighters can get that also.
+high saves? fighters can get that also, guarding blade for the win.
anything you can do i can do better is a very worthless mentality to have in this game. i can build a fighter to do everything you can do, atleast to a degree,now i may not be better, but that doesnt matter. the only difference between a palading getting immuntiy to charm/dominate effects is that my fighter has to buy that ability with gold.
THIS ^ is the biggest weakness of the fighter, they have to buy the utility that is given to other classes. and the sucky part of that is how fighters dont gain more wealth, or have a competent item creation system available. i mean yes they have that silly master crafter feat but then they have to buy the other feats necessary to create magical items... why that hell wasnt that just a fighter class feature?
The cost of oportunity is there anyways.
You can buy an item that make you inmune to fear. But then the paladin with that gold could get an item that let him fly, so the Paladin still have an adventage there.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Except Barbarians aren't 'HULK SMASH!!!'
They're Warriors who can enter a combat mode that grants +4 Strength, +4 Constitution, +2 to Will Saves, and -2 to AC.
Warriors who happen to develop Skills more easily (more skill points and class skills) but decided not to waste time learning how to fight in Heavy Armor.
Warriors who don't learn feats as fast.
Warriors who are about 1/3 faster than the average warrior.
The skills for a barbarian, IMHO, were meant to mimic the survival learning inherent in living in a tribal / barbairam soceity.
A barbarians consumable resource is his # of rounds of rage per day, for fighters its HP.
Not all members of the barbarian class are members of a barbarian culture, and not all members of a barbarian culture are member of a barbarian class.
That's pretty obvious with archetypes like "urban barbarian".
That's questionable, since they're listed as "Dwarf Regional Traits" rather than just Regional Traits.That's the fun part. Traits only have one Category. In this case, the category is Region (Five Kings Mountain, I think), not Race. So any character from that region can have it, not just dwarves.Wut. It's a race-specific regional treat for dwarves. Assuming it's Glory of Old we're talking about.Fun fact about this trait, it's a Region trait, not a Race trait, so humans can take it too!
Apparently there are some half-dwarves walking around golarion...
Exactly. Dwarf Regional Trait. Not Dwarf Racial Trait.
Hey, I'm not saying it makes sense (it doesn't), or that I'd allow it (I would), but any character from Five Kings Mountain can take it.It's just a silly oversight in a random book.
To be fair, Ashiel, a few of those powers you mentioned are not all that good.
Beast Totem does overpowers any of the other totem powers, because Pounce is just that good.
But then again, the fact the nearly every Barbarian takes it is not different from the fact that nearly every martial character gets Power Attack. Or the fact that no matter how many skills they have, everyone invests in Perception, even if it's not a class skill and they have low Wisdom score.
Some options are just too good/weak to be even considered real choices.
False choices is something I really don't like. Specially in a game where big part of the fun is building and customizing your character.
Which is why I'd love to see Power Attack, Deadly Aim, Combat Expertise, etc be turned into combat options instead of feats. They a have penalty to balance the benefit and are almost necessary to any martial who wants a decent DPR. So why not just give it to everyone?
Actually, that is not true.
Last campaign a friend of my played Barbarian. He didn’t go the Beast Totem route but went with versatility and flavor. A very cool Barbarian. He focused on trip and elemental damage and some other cool stuff. Knockdown and strength surge was a hilarious combination.And there are other ways help the Barbarian with saves besides superstition.
Not every players goes the same route, not even on this message boards.
To me it’s not about power. It’s about options. The Barbarian, ranger and Paladin have more options than the fighter and can thus be more versatile than the fighter.
None of our Paladins has maxed out perception and some even hasn't bothered with perceptions since it isn’t a class skill and they have a low wisdom.
True most full BAB melee dudes takes PA but rogues and Magus is better off without it. Just because lot a folk takes a feat it should be for free? So combat casting, spell penetration and quicken spell should be for free?
Come to think of it. Perhaps every feat that comes with a penalty could be turned into combat options instead of feats…Like all meta magic feats.
As for Combat Expertise I hate it. I wouldn’t mind if it and weapon finesse where turned into combat options instead of feats
Agreed 100% about options (I think Lemmy actually will agree with you too as Lemmy has said something almost exactly like that on many occasions). I think the reason that some of us feel Power Attack and Combat Expertise should probably be part of standard combat is primarily because PA is basically necessary to convert hit to damage on martial characters (now Rogues and Magi are hurt by hit since they don't have the extra to-hit to dump into PA, but at least in the case of Magi they have other tricks to keep their damage decent). Meanwhile Combat Expertise is not something anyone wants to spend a feat on (usually, though a stalwart barbarian can make people cry with it) and already bumps elbows with Fighting Defensively and Total Defense anyway.
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On a side note, what would be a hilarious build would be an Indomitable Barbarian (+1/2 level a DR/-), all three dragon totem feats (+6 DR/-), Improved Stalwart, Combat Expertise, 3+ ranks in Acrobatics. That would net you a DR of 25/- when Fighting Defensively and using Combat Expertise (combine with Reckless Abandon and possibly Crane Style to recover your to-hit modifiers). Add in Improved Damage Reduction power a couple of times and you could easily hit DR 30/-. Throw Superstition + Eater of Magic. Wear +1 heavy fortification light armor with energy resistances. Wear a cloak of lesser displacement effect on your +X cloak of resistance.
Enjoy being some crazy barbarian that's laughs at virtually every attempt to hurt him. He doesn't really care to avoid attacks, he just takes them. Watch as the monsters cry as their attacks barely scratch him even on a power attack (full attacks are ruined forever!), he resists energy, he swallows spells! After dropping a few nukes on him, his cleric just says "Oh, heal..." and you have to start all over again. :P
Ashiel, when assigning Unarmed Strikes, IUS is always assumed to take a primary limb if one is available (just like if you were wielding a weapon). So your IUS + Nat Attacker would have a claw/bite routine, and IUS on the other arm, just like a monster that takes the feat...still 3 attacks, not 4.
Note that qualifying for Multiattack or something that grants iteratives to nat attacks is probably better...
And I'm looking at all the scaling powers barbs get, and the fixed crap with reqs the fighter has to take, and I'm just shaking my head...and people wonder why I add scaling stuff to feats that fighters take.
==Aelryinth
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Actually, that is not true.
Last campaign a friend of my played Barbarian. He didn’t go the Beast Totem route but went with versatility and flavor. A very cool Barbarian. He focused on trip and elemental damage and some other cool stuff. Knockdown and strength surge was a hilarious combination.And there are other ways help the Barbarian with saves besides superstition.
Not every players goes the same route, not even on this message boards.
To me it’s not about power. It’s about options. The Barbarian, ranger and Paladin have more options than the fighter and can thus be more versatile than the fighter.None of our Paladins has maxed out perception and some even hasn't bothered with perceptions since it isn’t a class skill and they have a low wisdom.
Yeah, and some people play Monks and Rogues instead of Ninjas, Bards or Inquisitor. Just because some players don't take the clearly optimized route, doesn't mean there is no clearly optimized route.
I'm not saying every character should be a munchkin's wet dream and be capable of soloing any encounter with CR 2 levels higher than APL. What I'm saying is that some options are way better than others, to the point where the choice is no choice at all.Have you ever played Marvel vs Capcom 2? I love that game. But, it's character selection is just a huge false choice. They have over 50 characters, but only about 7 of them are actually competitive. That never stopped me from playing characters I loved instead of the more powerful ones, but I have no illusion that they're are all at the same power level.
True most full BAB melee dudes takes PA but rogues and Magus is better off without it. Just because lot a folk takes a feat it should be for free? So combat casting, spell penetration and quicken spell should be for free??
I never ever said anything should be free just because it's good. I said that if a feat is so good 99% of decently optimized builds take it, and it comes with with a penalty, it might as well be a free option. As it's, we can pretty much say Barbarians don't get 10 feats, they 9 feats + PA. So do Paladins. Fighters get 20 feats + Power Attack. PA is almost necessary for martial characters to have good damage output at higher levels.
Why does a character need special training (i.e.: a feat) to hit less precisely and with more force??? Hell, I don't even know how to sword-fight, but put a sword in my hand and I'm pretty sure that no matter how (in)accurate my strikes are, I could give any accuracy I have to hit things harder!If PA/Deadly Aim/Combat Expertise were combat options, some classes would benefit more from it than others, sure, but that's the same for any other thing. Fighting Defensively? A Crane-Style Monk can do it just okay, a Magus probably not. Difficult terrain? Who cares? I'm a mage! I can fly! And my spells have absurd range anyway! But the poor Paladin is unable to reach his enemies to full-attack. Using armor? Everyone can do it. But it probably won't be as much of a good idea for my Wizard as it's for my Fighter. Should "Use Armor" be a feat?
Come to think of it. Perhaps every feat that comes with a penalty could be turned into combat options instead of feats…Like all meta magic feats.
Metamagic feats are in a bit of a grey area, for me. While they do come with a penalty, they also add lots and lots of power for classes who A) Are already really powerful, B) Don't need any feats to be powerful. C) Have campaign-changing abilities even without metamagic.
If magic was not as powerful as it currently is, if wizards were about tier3. I'd not mind metamagic being "free".As for Combat Expertise I hate it. I wouldn’t mind if it and weapon finesse where turned into combat options instead of feat
What's the difference between Combat Expertise and Power Attack? Both of them come with a penalty in exchange for a benefit. And both of them are false choices, the only difference is that one of them is taken by nearly every character, and the other is never taken, unless it's needed for prerequistes (i.e.: the game forces you to take it).
BTW, I hate useless prerequisites. I don't want to take a useless option just so I can get something interesting in 2+ levels... I hate when my character sheet includes character creation choices I didn't make. I never wanted Combat Expertise or Int 13, but it I want to be half-decent at tripping, I need it. Why do I need to be really smart just to trip things without provoking AoO?Kinda funny how Dr.Stephen Hawking can certainly qualify for Improved Trip and Improved Disarm, but Chuck Norris probably not.
In Soviet Pathfinder, prerequisites take Chuck Norris.
==Aelryinth
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Chuck Norris qualifies for all feats regardless of prerequisites.Chuck Norris doesn't even need dice. He auto wins.
Not against Bruce Lee.
To a certain extent the idea of auto-metamagic isn't exactly a bad one. Psionics does something similar to this in that some of your low level powers get cute abilities or deal more damage if you're using more energy to manifest them. To give an idea as to how this might translate into magic, imagine a sorcerer who upon casting fireball using a 5th level slot (3rd level in a 5th level) could have the fireball deal +50% dice worth of damage (so his 10d6 fireball pops out as a 15d6 fireball) and has its saving throw DC upped by 2 (it's spell level didn't rise but it got an empowering effect and a DC bump, so lesser globe of invulnerability would still block it, and effects that absorb or nullify spells based on level would stop it, but the result is your sorcerer would end up with more options than usual (because his low level spells can get upgraded when he burns higher level slots).
This sort of thing works wonderfully in psionics (where it's crafted into the system from day 1 and is very well balanced). It's one of the reasons I like the system so much. Psions are like a cross between wizards and sorcerers in that they have a limited pool of powers that they know but they are also quite versatile and emphasize learning. The reason they have a limited pool but don't suffer the sorcerer's debilitating lack of options is due to this scaling. For example...
An 8th level Psion likely has 16 powers. The psion cannot change these powers each day as a cleric, druid, or wizard can. However, his spells known looks something like this:
1st Level Powers
Catfall (similar to feather fall)
Ectoplasmic Sheen (similar to grease)
Vigor (provides temporary HP)
Crystal Shard (untyped damage power)
2nd Level Powers
Breach (similar to knock)
Concealing Amorpha (similar to blur)
Energy Push (deals energy damage and moves foe)
Swarm of Crystals (short range AoE for unavoidable damage)
Energy Adaptation (similar to resist energy)
3rd Level Powers
Energy Bolt (similar to lightning bolt)
Energy Wall (similar to wall of fire)
Dispel Psionics (similar to dispel magic)
Eradicate Invisibility (reveals invisible things within radius)
4th Level Powers
Fold Space (similar to dimension door)
Wall of Ectoplasm (a temporary wall spell)
Slip the Bonds (similar to freedom of movement)
Now our psion only has 16 powers from 1st-4th level. However he's got quite a few options. Since most of his low level powers can be augmented he can spend more juice (effectively using a higher level "slot") to make them relevant. While swarm of crystals was dealing 3d4 unavoidable damage at 3rd level, he could spend up to 8 points to make it deal 8d4 unavoidable damage. Meanwhile while he doesn't seem to have a lot of battlefield control effects, he can spend more points and his ectoplasmic sheen power becomes harder to resist and sticky (anchoring foes to the floor unless they can succeed on some rather difficult Strength checks). His old powers never stop being useful (unlike a sorcerer who would look silly using a 4th level spell slot to cast magic missile or something).
So while he has a limited pool of powers he can still be very rounded because as his levels progress he still gets to draw from a rather useful pool of options.
Yeah, and some people play Monks and Rogues instead of Ninjas, Bards or Inquisitor. Just because some players don't take the clearly optimized route, doesn't mean there is no clearly optimized route.
I'm not saying every character should be a munchkin's wet dream and be capable of soloing any encounter with CR 2 levels higher than APL. What I'm saying is that some options are way better than others, to the point where the choice is no choice at all.
Some options are better than others, depending on what you want to do, but optimization is not necessarily about maxing DPR or AC it’s about building towards a goal. In order to do that you need options. Options fighters unlike other full BAB classes don't have.
You don’t have to create a tank with the highest DPR it only needs to be good enough to its job. So not all barbarians need to have pounce. I’ve seen builds that to a tremendous amount of damage without pounce, but true pounce will help if DPR is what you want, but isn’t always needed. Ashiel pretty much proved that.
You don’t need to be a fighter with a shield and have silly high AC do get by. You only need to have good enough AC. Also, if you are a barbarian there are other powers that help you with AC. Guarded Stance is one of them and it also helps with touch AC.
Besides if you playing an archer or a switch hitter barbarian you don’t need pounce or even a silly high AC.
Same with saves. There are other rage powers besides superstition that help you with saves.
As for perception, If you got two persons in the party with good perception and at least one scout kind of character not every member in the party needs to max out perception. Especially not spell casters.
I never ever said anything should be free just because it's good. I said that if a feat is so good 99% of decently optimized builds take it, and it comes with a penalty, it might as well be a free option. As it's, we can pretty much say Barbarians don't get 10 feats, they 9 feats + PA. So do Paladins. Fighters get 20 feats + Power Attack. PA is almost necessary for martial characters to have good damage output at higher levels.
Why does a character need special training (i.e.: a feat) to hit less precisely and with more force??? Hell, I don't even know how to sword-fight, but put a sword in my hand and I'm pretty sure that no matter how (in)accurate my strikes are, I could give any accuracy I have to hit things harder!
If PA/Deadly Aim/Combat Expertise were combat options, some classes would benefit more from it than others, sure, but that's the same for any other thing. Fighting Defensively? A Crane-Style Monk can do it just okay, a Magus probably not. Difficult terrain? Who cares? I'm a mage! I can fly! And my spells have absurd range anyway! But the poor Paladin is unable to reach his enemies to full-attack. Using armor? Everyone can do it. But it probably won't be as much of a good idea for my Wizard as it's for my Fighter. Should "Use Armor" be a feat?
Perhaps you are right. I’m not still convinced, but I will give it some thoughts.
BTW, I hate useless prerequisites. I don't want to take a useless option just so I can get something interesting in 2+ levels... I hate when my character sheet includes character creation choices I didn't make. I never wanted Combat Expertise or Int 13, but it I want to be half-decent at tripping, I need it. Why do I need to be really smart just to trip things without provoking AoO?
Kinda funny how Dr.Stephen Hawking can certainly qualify for Improved Trip and Improved Disarm, but Chuck Norris probably not.
LOL.
I guess the Int prereq has something to do with game balance, but I really dislike the Combat Expertise prereq.Edit
BTW, if I get to GM this year I will add some houserules. One will be that the fighter (or possibly all full BAB classes) will get Combat Expertise for free.
I‘m also going to change Combat Expertise. I have two ideas.
One is to keep the penalty to attack and bonus to AC as it is and letting it grant a bonus to one or two ability score for the purpose of qualifying for combat feats.
The second is to boost the bonus AND letting it grant a bonus to one or two ability score for the purpose of qualifying for combat feats.
Excuse my bad English
Same penalty to attack and bonus to AC or…
-1/+1 if using a one handed weapon
-1/+3 if using TWF and applying to penalty to both weapons,
-1/+2 of using a THW.
AND choose one (mental?) ability score and you will count as +3 (or +4) in that ability score for the purpose of qualifying for combat feats. Once the choice has been made it can’t be changed.
Or
Choose one mental ability score and one physical ability score and you will count as +2 in both ability scores for the purpose of qualifying for combat feats. Once the choice has been made it can’t be changed.
Or perhaps: you get 4 points (or 3?) that you can distribute to one or two ability scores as you like. +4/+0 or +3/+1 or +2/+2.
If you take two ability score one must be a mental ability score and one must be a physical ability score. This bonus only applies for the purpose of qualifying for combat feats. Once the choice has been made it can’t be changed.
Thoughts?
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I try to ensure martials get nice things. Here's the feat changes in one of my last big campaign's house rules.
Melee Combat Feats
Many of the core feats have greatly reduced prerequisites in this campaign, or in some cases have been altered slightly or granted new benefits. See below for details.
=====================================
Combat Feats (Melee)
=====================================
||======|| Cleave (Combat) ||======||
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
||======|| Great Cleave (Combat) ||======||
You can strike many adjacent foes with a single blow.
Prerequisites: Cleave, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach. If you hit, you can continue to make attacks against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they are within your reach. You cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action.
||======|| Combat Expertise (Combat) ||======||
You have greater potential when fighting defensively.
Benefit: You gain double the normal dodge bonuses to your armor class when fighting defensively, and you reduce the penalty to your attack rolls by 1 for every 4 BAB you have.
||======|| Improved Bull Rush (Combat) ||======||
You are skilled at pushing your foes around.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a bull rush combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to bull rush a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to bull rush you.
Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a bull rush combat maneuver.
||======|| Greater Bull Rush (Combat) ||======||
Your bull rush attacks throw enemies off balance.
Prerequisites: Improved Bull Rush, base attack bonus +4
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to bull rush a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Bull Rush. Whenever you bull rush an opponent, his movement provokes attacks of opportunity from all of your allies (but not you).
Normal: Creatures moved by bull rush do not provoke attacks of opportunity.
||======|| Improved Disarm (Combat) ||======||
You are skilled at knocking weapons from a foe's grasp.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a disarm combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to disarm a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to disarm you.
Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a disarm combat maneuver.
||======|| Greater Disarm (Combat) ||======||
You can knock weapons far from an enemy's grasp.
Prerequisites: Improved Disarm, base attack bonus +4
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to disarm a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Disarm. Whenever you successfully disarm an opponent, the weapon lands 15 feet away from its previous wielder, in a random direction.
Normal: Disarmed weapons and gear land at the feet of the disarmed creature.
||======|| Improved Feint (Combat) ||======||
You are skilled at fooling your opponents in combat.
Benefit: You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a move action.
Normal: Feinting in combat is a standard action.
||======|| Greater Feint (Combat) ||======||
You are skilled at making foes overreact to your attacks.
Prerequisites: Improved Feint, base attack bonus +4
Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
Normal: A creature you feint loses its Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
||======|| Improved Grapple (Combat) ||======||
You are skilled at grappling opponents.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a grapple combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to grapple you.
Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a grapple combat maneuver.
||======|| Greater Grapple (Combat ||======||
Maintaining a grapple is second nature to you.
Prerequisites: Improved Grapple, base attack bonus +4
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.
Normal: Maintaining a grapple is a standard action.
||======|| Improved Overrun (Combat) ||======||
You are skilled at running down your foes.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing an overrun combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to overrrun a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to overrun you. Targets of your overrun attempt may not chose to avoid you.
Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing an overrun combat maneuver.
||======|| Greater Overrun (Combat) ||======||
Enemies must dive to avoid your dangerous move.
Prerequisites: Improved Overrun, base attack bonus +4
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to overrun a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Overrun. Whenever you overrun opponents, they provoke attacks of opportunity if they are knocked prone by your overrun.
Normal: Creatures knocked prone by your overrun do not provoke an attack of opportunity.
||======|| Improved Sunder (Combat) ||======||
You are skilled at damaging your foes' weapons and armor.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a sunder combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to sunder an item. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to sunder your gear.
Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a sunder combat maneuver.
||======|| Greater Sunder (Combat) ||======||
Your devastating strikes cleave through weapons and armor and into their wielders, damaging both item and wielder alike in a single terrific strike.
Prerequisites: Improved Sunder, base attack bonus +4
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to sunder an item. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Sunder. Whenever you sunder to destroy a weapon, shield, or suit of armor, any excess damage is applied to the item's wielder. No damage is transferred if you decide to leave the item with 1 hit point.
||======|| Improved Trip (Combat) ||======||
You are skilled at sending your opponents to the ground.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a trip combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to trip a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to trip you.
Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a trip combat maneuver.
||======|| Greater Trip (Combat) ||======||
You can make free attacks on foes that you knock down.
Prerequisites: Improved Trip, base attack bonus +4
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to trip a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Trip. Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normal: Creatures do not provoke attacks of opportunity from being tripped.
||======|| Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat) ||======||
You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting in Combat. When you gain an additional attack due to base attack bonus (at +6, +11, and +16) you can make an additional off-hand attack the same attack bonus.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.
||======|| Vital Strike (Combat) ||======||
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
When your BAB reaches +11, roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack three times and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
When your BAB reaches +16, roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack four times and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
||======|| Weapon Focus (Combat) ||======||
Choose a weapon group (see Fighter Weapon Training class feature). You can also choose touch attacks and rays (for spellcasters).
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using a weapon from the selected group.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new weapon group or weapon.
If you have at least 8 levels in the Fighter class, the bonus gained from this feat from +1 to +2.
||======|| Weapon Specialization (Combat) ||======||
You are skilled at dealing damage with weapons. Choose one type of weapon or weapon group for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You deal extra damage when using these weapons.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus with selected weapon or weapon group, fighter level 4th
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon or weapon group.
When your fighter level reaches 12th, this bonus increases from +2 to +4.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon or weapon group.
Ranged Combat Feats
Many of the core feats have greatly reduced prerequisites in this campaign, or in some cases have been altered slightly or granted new benefits. See below for details.
=====================================
Combat Feats (Ranged)
=====================================
||======|| Far Shot (Combat) ||======||
You are more accurate at longer ranges.
Benefit: You only suffer a –1 penalty per full range increment between you and your target when using a ranged weapon.
Normal: You suffer a –2 penalty per full range increment between you and your target.
||======|| Manyshot (Combat) ||======||
You can fire multiple arrows at a single target.
Prerequisites: Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow.
||======|| Pinpoint Targeting (Combat) ||======||
You can target the weak points in your opponent's armor.
Prerequisites: Improved Precise Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +16.
Benefit: As a standard action, make a single ranged attack. The target does not gain any armor, natural armor, or shield bonuses to its Armor Class. You do not gain the benefit of this feat if you move this round.
||======|| Point Blank Shot (Combat) ||======||
You are especially adapt at using ranged attacks in close quarters.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet.
||======|| Precise Shot (Combat) ||======||
You are adept at firing ranged attacks into melee.
Benefit: You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent engaged in melee without taking the standard –4 penalty on your attack roll.
||======|| Improved Precise Shot (Combat) ||======||
Your ranged attacks ignore anything but total concealment and cover.
Prerequisites: Precise Shot, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: Your ranged attacks ignore the AC bonus granted to targets by anything less than total cover, and the miss chance granted to targets by anything less than total concealment. Total cover and total concealment provide their normal benefits against your ranged attacks.
Normal: See the normal rules on the effects of cover and concealment in Combat.
||======|| Rapid Reload (Combat) ||======||
You can reload weapons such as crossbows and slings more rapidly.
Benefit: You reduce the time required to reload a crossbow or sling. If reloading the weapon is normally a full-round action it becomes a move action. If reloading it is a move action, it becomes a free action.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects stack, allowing you to reduce a full-round action reload to a free action reload.
||======|| Rapid Shot (Combat) ||======||
You can make an additional ranged attack.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.
||======|| Shot on the Run (Combat) ||======||
You can move, fire a ranged weapon, and move again before your foes can react.
Prerequisites: base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single ranged attack at any point during your movement.
Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack with a ranged weapon.
Note: The combat expertise feat listed here was pre-Crane Style and I'm not super happy with it. Next time I will probably just make Combat Expertise the new Fighting Defensively.
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wut||======|| Combat Expertise (Combat) ||======||
You have greater potential when fighting defensively.Benefit: You gain double the normal dodge bonuses to your armor class when fighting defensively, and you reduce the penalty to your armor class by 1 for every 4 BAB you have.
That was a typo and has been fixed. Sorry for the atrocious formatting but the stuff was typed in a notepad style file and copied more or less directly to the post. EDIT: In my next big campaign I will simply replace Fighting Defensively's benefit with Combat Expertise's benefit (but I will retain the +1 bonus to fighting defensively from Acrobatics).
Everything you suggested is already do-able.
(I think Beowulf had some magical-dragon-blooded assistance IIRC)
He what now?
(now, Beowulf was a LG barbarian, not a fighter - but he was fully human).
Unless... it just occurred to me that maybe your experience is just with the movie? Is Beowulf a dragon in the movie?
(man, that would be weird...)
Beowulf was totally immune to fear. He was a paladin! :P
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It always annoys me that people forget that a Paladin can drop things like Divine Favor and Divine Power on themselves, meaning that even against non-evil enemies, they're still capable of fighting it out after spending one standard action.
And that it stacks with smite when the enemies ARE evil.
Oh very much this.
Whenever the topic of paladin and fighter comes up, someone will pretend that the Paladin chassis isn't as strong or stronger than the fighter chassis against nonevil foes.
Beowulf doesn't speak Barbarian to me. I look at Beowulf and I see Fighter.
Beowulf is frequently described in the poem as raging, furious, angry, etc in battle. Besides that, he would have made an awful fighter since he switches in between weapons in every fight (and even in the middle of two of his three fights) so he gets not very much out of weapon training.
If you want to see Pathfinder stats for Beowulf done by me, you could check here.
They are very old, using only PF Core, but should be serviceable. If I had to do them now, I might pick an archetype that traded out Uncanny Dodge and such things.
Unsanctioned Knowledge is crazy sexy for a Paladin as well. A Paladin having access to Divine Power is pretty sexy (+CL to as temporary HP, up to a +5 luck bonus to hit/damage/CMB, strength checks, +1 attack per round as if hasted, and if you have a +2 CL trait then you hit +6 to hit and damage and Strength checks at 18th level, and it's likely to last entire combats). And then you also can also get several arcane spells as divine spells (no spell-failure %).
Good options are heroism (+2 to attacks, saves, checks, for 10 minutes / level), good hope (like heroism but applies to damage and affects 1 target/level and lasts 1 min/level), phantom steed (because even those with bonded weapons may want a disposable flying superhorse that lasts 1 hour / level), abundant ammunition (oh look, infinite special material arrows). Or cleric/oracles spells like bestow weapon proficiency (uh-oh, the Paladin can wield more weapons than our fighters!), defending bone gives a long lasting damage-absorbing effect against a lot of weapons (including bows, swords, axes, spears, etc). Align weapon means attuning you can bypass ANY aligned DR (chaos, evil, good, and law). Animate dead for those Paladins of Wee Jass out there, or those who think it's really darn cool to lead a legion of undead soldiers against the forces of evil (and it is).
BTW, Feather Step is a great first level spell and Jester's Jaunt is a nice 3rd level spells.
Some options are better than others, depending on what you want to do, but optimization is not necessarily about maxing DPR or AC it’s about building towards a goal. In order to do that you need options. Options fighters unlike other full BAB classes don't have.
You don’t have to create a tank with the highest DPR it only needs to be good enough to its job. So not all barbarians need to have pounce. I’ve seen builds that to a tremendous amount of damage without pounce, but true pounce will help if DPR is what you want, but isn’t always needed. Ashiel pretty much proved that.
I agree with you on this. I think you misunderstood my point a bit. I'm not saying that every character has to be optimized, therefore the non-optimal choices shouldn't exist.
What I meant is that every option should be close enough in power/usefulness that the deciding factor is just player preference, and as we know, this is not always the case.If the difference in power is too big, the player's only choice is pick something he may not like as much, or be punished for his choice.
A good example is 2-Handed vs TWF.
A TWFer uses a bazillion feats to keep relevant, and it's DPR is either lower or just slightly above his 2-Handed friend, who got Power Attack (liek I said, PA is not a real choice) and spent the rest of his feats on whatever cool stuff he wanted.
Now, this doesn't stop people from using TWF, just like I' used Jill Valentine, Guile and B.B.Hood in MvC2, even if Magneto/Storm/Sentinel would be extremely better.
I think Greater Beast Totem and Spell Sunder are probably the best Rage not because they are always the best choice, in every situation (they aren't), but because, overall, they'll be more useful in more situations than the other rage powers.
Perhaps you are right. I’m not still convinced, but I will give it some thoughts.
That's all I can ask for. ^^
Again, I'm not against non-optimized choices, I just would like to see a game where choices are more about different goals, game style and player preferences than about power.
I try to ensure martials get nice things. Here's the feat changes in one of my last big campaign's house rules.
Melee Combat Feats
Many of the core feats have greatly reduced prerequisites in this campaign, or in some cases have been altered slightly or granted new benefits. See below for details.--LOTS OF TEXT--
So... Many... Words...
I want to read these feats, I really do. But, by Odin, I got tired from just skimming the post... I did read some of them, but I'll finish the post later.
Here's how I do Cleave (it's a bit difficult to explain in written form, so bear with me):
Cleave: When you hit and enemy with a melee attack, you can make another attack with the same weapon to a second opponent you threaten with that weapon, using the same bonus of your previous attack. However, once you attack your second target, no matter if you hit or miss, you can't make any other additional attacks in your turn, except AoO.
e.g.: A 11th level Fighter could make a full attack +11/+6/+1, then, if his last strike connects, use Cleave for an attack at +1 against another enemy. Or, he could boost his chances to hit both enemies at the cost of his last attack, he strikes his 1st target at +11/+6, and his second target at +6.
Greater Cleave allows the Fighter to keep making Cleave attacks against any target he threatens as long as he keep hitting, but he can't attack the same foe twice with the same Cleave.
The player has a choice to make, does he attack 2 enemies using his best attack modifier? Does he only attack his 2nd target at the end of his full attack, but loses accuracy, therefore his chances to even use Cleave?
This adds a choice. A real choice. You balance risk and reward and decide what course of action you want, 2 attacks at full accuracy, or does he goes for the full attacks and possibly loses the extra one from Cleave?
This is something I'd like to see more in PF, choices where you have to consider the situation, balance risk and reward and see what is the best course of action for that moment.
Not choices where some options are so above/below the others that you hardly even consider the alternative. Like I said in the Options x Number threads, more complexity is not the same as more options.
If you have 100 feat/spell/whatever, but only 10 are good, you only have 10 real choices, the others are just page filler.
Yesterday I was talking with a friend about this.
I pointed how poor some fighter options were, compared to other classes. I used "bravery" vs "Aura of Courage", pointing how bland a +1 to fear saves was. I suggested that fighters should have something more similar to Resolve (like samurais) and be able to break fear.
Then he pointed "but that's not logic. Why should every fighter be inmune to fear? The local guard who watch the city door with spear and shield shouldn't be inmune to fear". And there is where the problem resides: fighters represent a wide group of people, most of whom terribly suck. So fighters get sucky skills, because the guy in the city's door is pathetic, and has to suck. Therefore, PC fighters are pathetic and suck too. Paladins can have cool stuff, because there aren't pathetic paladins that suck and guard city's doors. They are all of them heroes with white horses, shiny armor, and high ideals.
Fighters should change their name. Instead of "fighter", call them "incredible hero that do amazing stuff and is incredibly powerful with weapons". Then you can give them cool stuff, and give crappy stuff to warriors, or whatever you call them. So your "incredible martial hero class", like Ulyses, Aragorn, King Arthur, Beowulf or Achilles can have cool stuff, while the pathetic city watch which is borderline useless can be a warrior, soldier, fighter, or however you call non-PC martial class.
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But City Guards are Warriors, not Fighters usually.
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pathetic city watch is supposed to be warriors. Fighters are the Olympians of the melee combat set. Saying city guards are fighters is like saying your weekend flag football team are world class athletes.
==Aelryinth
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pathetic city watch is supposed to be warriors. Fighters are the Olympians of the melee combat set. Saying city guards are fighters is like saying your weekend flag football team are world class athletes.
==Aelryinth
Agreed. Though I must say I find "Fighter" a terribly lame class name. Almost as bad as "Magic User".
It could have been called Champion, Warrior, Warlord, Armsmaster, Paragon, Martial-Guy-With-Awesome-Abilities or whatever... "Fighter" sounds rather bland, IMO.
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pathetic city watch is supposed to be warriors. Fighters are the Olympians of the melee combat set. Saying city guards are fighters is like saying your weekend flag football team are world class athletes.
==Aelryinth
Then there's no problem with giving fighters Olympian level stuff, right? However, there is. When someone suggests that fighters should be able to break magic walls, or ignore fear, or do heroic stuff, we get back to the "that's not mundane enough" stuff. Stuff we don't hear when the Barbarian do exactly the same things, despise barbarian being martial-based too.
Maybe the pathetic city watch is a warrior. But the proffesional caravan guard is a fighter (by Game Mastery Guide NPC example). And he sucks too. Maybe not as much as the average level 2 warrior, but he sucks anyways. Much more than the average level 2 magus, or the average level 2 paladin. Because there aren't "rank and file magus" or "rank and file paladins", and there are "rank and file fighters". And as you don't want to give cool stuff to rank and file caravan guards, then you give pathethic stuff to fighters, like bravery.
That's why Samurai have Resolve, while caravan guards have "bravery". Because there aren't pathethic samurai, or pathetic paladins. All of them are heroic, stuff made of legend. The caravan guard, though, is mediocre enough to do not warrant heroic stuff.
We should separate completelly the fighter/warrior from the PC-level of martial-awesome-hero. Call the PC martial class "champion", and now you can give "champions" cool stuff that make them inmune to fear. Because, you know, Champion sounds cool. While "fighter" sounds pathethic.
Perhaps bonuses to saves against fear leading up to eventual fear immunity would work out?
That way you can have some tough NPC fighters who are not immune to fear, but if they are powerful enough (say 10th+ level) then nothing scares them anymore.
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Perhaps bonuses to saves against fear leading up to eventual fear immunity would work out?
That way you can have some tough NPC fighters who are not immune to fear, but if they are powerful enough (say 10th+ level) then nothing scares them anymore.
I'd use adding their level to fear saves, maybe.
I always found absurd that when a dragon arrives, the only one that runs is the proffesional soldier. The minstrel (bard) the sage (wizard) and the half-blind seer (oracle) stay and fight. But the proffesional marine runs like a chicken, because Will is a weak save for them.
IMHO only heroic NPCs should have heroic class levels. Most NPCs should in fact have NPC class levels or a mixture of heroic and NPC class levels unless the intention is for those NPCs to be a representative of someone with heroic capabilities. This is my biggest problem with the 3.5 Adventure Path "The Red Hand of Doom". All the rank and file hobgoblins are PC classed (all the foot soldiers are Fighters). Pretty much every NPC in the book is all PC classed.
Meanwhile, I've expressed a great hatred of the GMG NPC gallery because of stupid stuff like your generic prostitute being an expert 1/rogue 1, which means he or she is actually stronger and with more money than your average 1st level adventurer (including having heroic point buy equal to the PCs).
Sadly, fighter fails as an NPC class too. If you follow the bestiary rules (which give the best results in terms of being comparable to standard monsters) the Fighter class is obsolete. You're pretty much better off adding +2 levels of warrior instead of +1 level of Fighter (+2 warrior levels always results in +1 feat, +2 BAB, +2d10 HD, +3/+1 Fortitude, and +4 base skill points).
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I'm going to be posting a fighter remix soon, so stay tuned. :D
Some options are better than others, depending on what you want to do, but optimization is not necessarily about maxing DPR or AC it’s about building towards a goal. In order to do that you need options. Options fighters unlike other full BAB classes don't have.
You don’t have to create a tank with the highest DPR it only needs to be good enough to its job. So not all barbarians need to have pounce. I’ve seen builds that to a tremendous amount of damage without pounce, but true pounce will help if DPR is what you want, but isn’t always needed. Ashiel pretty much proved that.
I agree with you on this. I think you misunderstood my point a bit. I'm not saying that every character has to be optimized, therefore the non-optimal choices shouldn't exist.
What I meant is that every option should be close enough in power/usefulness that the deciding factor is just player preference, and as we know, this is not always the case.
If the difference in power is too big, the player's only choice is pick something he may not like as much, or be punished for his choice.A good example is 2-Handed vs TWF.
A TWFer uses a bazillion feats to keep relevant, and it's DPR is either lower or just slightly above his 2-Handed friend, who got Power Attack (liek I said, PA is not a real choice) and spent the rest of his feats on whatever cool stuff he wanted.
Now, this doesn't stop people from using TWF, just like I' used Jill Valentine, Guile and B.B.Hood in MvC2, even if Magneto/Storm/Sentinel would be extremely better.
I think Greater Beast Totem and Spell Sunder are probably the best Rage not because they are always the best choice, in every situation (they aren't), but because, overall, they'll be more useful in more situations than the other rage powers.
I agree some options are usually simply better, but it doesn’t depend on DPR it depends on what goal you want.
As for TWF, I agree it suck.
When it comes to Greater Beast Totem and Spell Sunder. Yes, both are good, but I wouldn’t call them best. It all depends on what you goal is. I think pounce is less must have after Quick Runner's Shirt in UE. Quick Runner's Shirt pretty much gave pounce to every character and it greatly improved the monk, fighter and any TWF build. At least if your GM approves of it. (I will nerf it a bit, but I will allow it.).
I agree some options are usually simply better, but it doesn’t depend on DPR it depends on what goal you want.I agree. DPR is just what I sued for my example, because it's a very common priority for lots of classes/games/builds.
When it comes to Greater Beast Totem and Spell Sunder. Yes, both are good, but I wouldn’t call them best. It all depends on what you goal is. I think pounce is less must have after Quick Runner's Shirt in UE. Quick Runner's Shirt pretty much gave pounce to every character and it greatly improved the monk, fighter and any TWF build. At least if your GM approves of it. (I will nerf it a bit, but I will allow it.).
I don't really think Quick Shirt that good... Once per day is meh. I suppse if you don't have anything else to buy for that particular item slot, you could carry a few of those to use once per combat.
A bit silly, but doable. Still don't think it's that great of an item.
Spell Sunder is not only good, but its usefulness increases more and more as the levels go up.
Besides... It's unique and awesome! That's always a bonus!
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pathetic city watch is supposed to be warriors. Fighters are the Olympians of the melee combat set. Saying city guards are fighters is like saying your weekend flag football team are world class athletes.
==Aelryinth
Agreed. Though I must say I find "Fighter" a terribly lame class name. Almost as bad as "Magic User".
It could have been called Champion, Warrior, Warlord, Armsmaster, Paragon, Martial-Guy-With-Awesome-Abilities or whatever... "Fighter" sounds rather bland, IMO.
Well it used to be called "Fighting Man".
The Fighter chassis has 3 problems:
Bravery is worthless. It's still not as good as a good will save!
2 pts/level for a class that is basically focused on mundane training is...wrong. IF you had a feat mechanic to back up the low skill points, you'd be fine.
Weapon Training decreases by each group, instead of remaining level.
Armor Training: Much of the benefit can be used by acquiring Mithral and/or Celestial Armor. It doesn't provide extra AC...it removes a limitation that is still capped by Dex. If you can just get armor that qualifies as a class lighter and allows the Dex, you're as good as the fighter.The Capstone Armor Training DR should apply by level, and should stack with adamantine armor.
Add in the two poor saves for a 4th sore point.
But, you know, the basic idea of good AC in armor, good with weapons, and tons of feats is basically okay.
Now, the REAL problem is that feats are 1/2 of a class feature, at best, and the fighter has 11 half-strength class features. Along with the Rogue, all you need to do is compare what they get to what the Barbarian gets, and this gets thrust home hard. (Look, the 'Spell Sunder' feat for the fighter lets them do it once/day!)
Blargh.
===Aelryinth
It is amazing that this thread has gotten to over 1k responses when AD killed the whole debate with like the 3rd response. Interesting.
It is amazing that this thread has gotten to over 1k responses when AD killed the whole debate with like the 3rd response. Interesting.
Except he didn't.
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Has anyone made mention of the Mobile Fighter archetype? If there was anything intrinsically wrong with the fighter class, it's the fact that this is an archetype rather than part of the base class features. Far more versatile, and has a 'pounce' that is arguably better than pounce (ex), in some cases.
Sure, no Gloves of Dueling for this one, but having to depend on a magic item being available to you as an 'advantage' is not always the best policy.
Much of the general consensus is that all melee classes should be able to move and get their iteratives. At the very LEAST, Vital Strike should be part of the standard load out.
What this would do for monsters in return, well, you wanted that 1E feeling, right? :)
So, yeah, there's a lot of stuff in the archetypes that should just be standard fare.
And, you know, you've got an entire fighter archetype devoted to mobile fighting.
Pounce is ONE RAGE POWER that ANY barbarian can take, and basically does the same thing as the entire archetype...without penalizing the barb's offense.
how's that for comparisons? Feh.
==Aelryinth
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The Fighter chassis has 3 problems:
Bravery is worthless. It's still not as good as a good will save!
2 pts/level for a class that is basically focused on mundane training is...wrong. IF you had a feat mechanic to back up the low skill points, you'd be fine.
Weapon Training decreases by each group, instead of remaining level.
Armor Training: Much of the benefit can be used by acquiring Mithral and/or Celestial Armor. It doesn't provide extra AC...it removes a limitation that is still capped by Dex. If you can just get armor that qualifies as a class lighter and allows the Dex, you're as good as the fighter.The Capstone Armor Training DR should apply by level, and should stack with adamantine armor.
Add in the two poor saves for a 4th sore point.But, you know, the basic idea of good AC in armor, good with weapons, and tons of feats is basically okay.
Now, the REAL problem is that feats are 1/2 of a class feature, at best, and the fighter has 11 half-strength class features. Along with the Rogue, all you need to do is compare what they get to what the Barbarian gets, and this gets thrust home hard. (Look, the 'Spell Sunder' feat for the fighter lets them do it once/day!)
Blargh.
===Aelryinth
I don't think you are giving Armor Training enough credit because another class has to go out of their way with extra expenses to get what the fighter gets naturally. Also, Armor Training also gives that nice bonus to skill check minuses.