If the fighter can keep their hp up (good old cleric, potions, high ac from feats/gear or just being lucky/tactical and not being harmed by the first few encounters) then they can just keep on going. This is the 15 minute work-day issue again, but I want to go further. Spellcasters...The bolded part just show how the fighters aren't self suficient, and are dependant of others, a resource drain, and need to rest after the 15 minutes like everybody else.
Wizards are reality-warpers. When their reality-warp resource (spells) is spent, they need to rest.
Fighters are meat-shield. When their meat-shield resource (hit points) is spent, they need to rest too.
Sure, the fighter could use Wands of Cure Light Wound to keep going. Just like the Wizard can use Wands of Fireball to keep going.
And, once again: the typical adventuring day goes 4-5 encounters per day. Even if you do those in a row, no rest, that means 12-15 combat rounds, for most parties in most fights. The spellcasters CAN cast 12-15 combat rounds, with ease. Much more, if they have some Wand (caster level 9 magic missile or caster level 7 scorching ray are good) to fill rounds. Often, the reason for the 15 minute adventure day is not that the Wizard is out of reality-warping, but that the cleric is out of healing-pills for the fighter.
Wrong, not equivalent. When the spellcaster is out of spells, they need to rest to get them back, or yes, rely on wands. Hope they brought a few to cover multiple spells.
When the fighter is low on hp, they don't need to rest, they need to get the hp back. There are multiple ways to do this. Then they can continue on.
Got heal potions? The melee/ranged can go on and use that wonderful bab on many future foes. "Are you coming wizard?"
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A fighter is what you make of it.
You can't complain that because I took a fighter's concept down road A that he sucks cause he can't do B. That is purposefully looking at the fighter's path and coming up with a complete opposite just so you can win an argument.
Endless beating of the dead horse.
The fighter's gimmick is feats. The player is free to choose half of them to be the non-combat kind is desired, making it possible to do something besides DPR. Also, those classes you listed peak situationally, whereas the fighter always has his ability turned "on". Barbarian has to rage, summoner has limited spells, gunslingers need ammunition, paladin must fighter evil, cavaliers must challenge.
The summoner always has his eidolon 'turned on" and the Eidolon is worth two fighters early on.
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I personally have always played a fighter. They do have many advantages over other classes. I have browsed through some of this thread and have yet to see anyone mention one of the finer points...they can use virtually any weapon they get their hands on w/o penalty!
Perhaps nobody did mention it because it is just plain wrong?
At level 6 the fighter has weapon training and most fighters have weapon focus and weapon specialization, too. So while he can use many weapons (same as most martial PCs) he has the penalty of losing his weapon training, weapon focus and weapon specialization. Thats +2 to hit and +3 to damage which you lose. I'd call that a penalty.Lets look at the paladin: They can use the same weapons and while they can take feats that only work with som weapons they will not lose any class abilities for chosing the "wrong" weapon.
You just made a point for the paladin being better than the fighter.
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Wrong, not equivalent. When the spellcaster is out of spells, they need to rest to get them back, or yes, rely on wands. Hope they brought a few to cover multiple spells.
A 10th level spellcaster has enough spells to go through SEVERAL encounters, scrolls are cheap, and he can build them for himself.
When the fighter is low on hp, they don't need to rest, they need to get the hp back. There are multiple ways to do this. Then they can continue on.
Got heal potions? The melee/ranged can go on and use that wonderful bab on many future foes. "Are you coming wizard?"
Healing potions are resources too. You run out of resources, be they spell slots, healing potions, or CLW charges.
If you are supposing an endless suply of potions for the fighter, then why aren't you suppossing an endless supply of scrolls for the caster? Scrolls are cheaper than potions. And the caster can make them for himself, for even cheaper. The fighter can't make healing potions.
And, once again, this is not a "fighter vs wizard" issue. Wizard actually use a different mechanic, and fill a different role. The fighter doesn't need to compete with them. He competes with Paladins, Synthesist Summoners, shapechanger druids and Magus. ALL of those can chunk as much healing potions as the fighter do, and can swing their sword all day long. BUT they have a lot of other things to add to the party. And all of them can actually heal themselves using their own renewable resources (lay on hands, Infernal healing, healing spells)
A fighter is what you make of it.
A magus is what you make of it too. And he can fly, haste the party, make the party invisible, detect magic stuff, and teleport around.
You can't complain that because I took a fighter's concept down road A that he sucks cause he can't do B. That is purposefully looking at the fighter's path and coming up with a complete opposite just so you can win an argument.
Endless beating of the dead horse.
You can make the fighter going through road A, and he can't do B. A magus, paladin, summoner or druid can do A, B, C and D, and he can do A at least as good as the fighter, if not better.
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A fighter is what you make of it.A magus is what you make of it too. And he can fly, haste the party, make the party invisible, detect magic stuff, and teleport around.
You can make the fighter going through road A, and he can't do B. A magus, paladin, summoner or druid can do A, B, C and D, and he can do A at least as good as the fighter, if not better.You can't complain that because I took a fighter's concept down road A that he sucks cause he can't do B. That is purposefully looking at the fighter's path and coming up with a complete opposite just so you can win an argument.
Endless beating of the dead horse.
So?
Thanks for actually making my argument more valid. If I wanted to I can make my fighter do the same thing by making UMD a class skill or just handing my teammates a few potions that they can drink.
Not sure what you are trying to argue exactly.
I'm playing in (yay, I'm not GMing :P) a game every Saturday at the moment. We're still at low levels where martials are the kings of the world relative to other classes. The GM also has a house rule that gives classes bonus HP equal to 1/2 their HD, so Fighters begin with an extra +5 HP which increases their longevity decently enough.
We're doing a dungeon crawler in a mega-dungeon. There are five of us. A Fighter, a Synthesist (who unfortunately passed in the last session due to a x3 crit and shall be missed), a Cleric, a (I think) Ranger, and a Wizard. So far our activities have more or less revolved around the Cleric and his uses of Channel Energy and sacrificing spells for healing, with the Fighter being one of the first to ask for the heals (which we of course happily provide, so much that I'm thinking of picking up infernal healing to help take some of the strain off the cleric).
Now we do have some healing potions and scrolls, but we're not made of money. The idea of going further into danger by burning our emergency consumables while everyone else is running on empty is tactically asinine. The irony is that the wizard has not actually lacked a spell to cast during the game thus far. The cleric and synthesist didn't either, except to heal.
Even a wand of cure light wounds costs 15 gp/charge. That's an average of 3 gp to 1 hp restored. I'm going to see if there are any secondhand wands of infernal healing next time we're in town, or possibly make some when I hit 5th level (Craft Wand looks nice this time of year). 'Cause our poor cleric could use some help. :P
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I'm playing in (yay, I'm not GMing :P) a game every Saturday at the moment. We're still at low levels where martials are the kings of the world relative to other classes. The GM also has a house rule that gives classes bonus HP equal to 1/2 their HD, so Fighters begin with an extra +5 HP which increases their longevity decently enough.
We're doing a dungeon crawler in a mega-dungeon. There are five of us. A Fighter, a Synthesist (who unfortunately passed in the last session due to a x3 crit and shall be missed), a Cleric, a (I think) Ranger, and a Wizard. So far our activities have more or less revolved around the Cleric and his uses of Channel Energy and sacrificing spells for healing, with the Fighter being one of the first to ask for the heals (which we of course happily provide, so much that I'm thinking of picking up infernal healing to help take some of the strain off the cleric).
Now we do have some healing potions and scrolls, but we're not made of money. The idea of going further into danger by burning our emergency consumables while everyone else is running on empty is tactically asinine. The irony is that the wizard has not actually lacked a spell to cast during the game thus far. The cleric and synthesist didn't either, except to heal.
Even a wand of cure light wounds costs 15 gp/charge. That's an average of 3 gp to 1 hp restored. I'm going to see if there are any secondhand wands of infernal healing next time we're in town, or possibly make some when I hit 5th level (Craft Wand looks nice this time of year). 'Cause our poor cleric could use some help. :P
So what exactly are you trying to say here, that the fighter is using up your party resources at a faster rate?
The fighter's gimmick is feats. The player is free to choose half of them to be the non-combat kind is desired, making it possible to do something besides DPR. Also, those classes you listed peak situationally, whereas the fighter always has his ability turned "on". Barbarian has to rage, summoner has limited spells, gunslingers need ammunition, paladin must fighter evil, cavaliers must challenge.The summoner always has his eidolon 'turned on" and the Eidolon is worth two fighters early on.
Not only that, but the summoner can absorb some of the eidolon evolutions at certain levels.
So while the fighter get extra feats that give him +3 to a skill, the summoner get +8 racial bonus to the skill. When the fighter gets "fleet of foot" feat to move +5' per round, the Summoner gets wings and fly.
And those are always "turned on".
same goes with Paladins aura of grace that let him add charisma to his saves, for example. Or just compare "bravery" feature from the fighter (a +1 to fear saves) with "aura of courage" that gives inmunity to the paladin and +4 to nearby teammates. The fighter gets more bonus to fear from the paladin feature, than from his own stuff.
A fighter is what you make of it.A magus is what you make of it too. And he can fly, haste the party, make the party invisible, detect magic stuff, and teleport around.
You can make the fighter going through road A, and he can't do B. A magus, paladin, summoner or druid can do A, B, C and D, and he can do A at least as good as the fighter, if not better.You can't complain that because I took a fighter's concept down road A that he sucks cause he can't do B. That is purposefully looking at the fighter's path and coming up with a complete opposite just so you can win an argument.
Endless beating of the dead horse.
So?
Thanks for actually making my argument more valid. If I wanted to I can make my fighter do the same thing by making UMD a class skill or just handing my teammates a few potions that they can drink.
Not sure what you are trying to argue exactly.
I'm not arguing. There's no argument. I'm just stating a fact. The Magus can do anything the fighter can do, and have a ton of extra stuff.
Actually, the magus DOES have UMD as a class skill. And can craft potions himself with the right feat. So you could make your fighter going road B instead of Road A, but the magus could do road B much better than you, and he can still do road A, C, and D. While he teleport, haste the party, fly, identify magic stuff, and makes himself and the whole party invisible.
So what exactly are you trying to say here, that the fighter is using up your party resources at a faster rate?I'm playing in (yay, I'm not GMing :P) a game every Saturday at the moment. We're still at low levels where martials are the kings of the world relative to other classes. The GM also has a house rule that gives classes bonus HP equal to 1/2 their HD, so Fighters begin with an extra +5 HP which increases their longevity decently enough.
We're doing a dungeon crawler in a mega-dungeon. There are five of us. A Fighter, a Synthesist (who unfortunately passed in the last session due to a x3 crit and shall be missed), a Cleric, a (I think) Ranger, and a Wizard. So far our activities have more or less revolved around the Cleric and his uses of Channel Energy and sacrificing spells for healing, with the Fighter being one of the first to ask for the heals (which we of course happily provide, so much that I'm thinking of picking up infernal healing to help take some of the strain off the cleric).
Now we do have some healing potions and scrolls, but we're not made of money. The idea of going further into danger by burning our emergency consumables while everyone else is running on empty is tactically asinine. The irony is that the wizard has not actually lacked a spell to cast during the game thus far. The cleric and synthesist didn't either, except to heal.
Even a wand of cure light wounds costs 15 gp/charge. That's an average of 3 gp to 1 hp restored. I'm going to see if there are any secondhand wands of infernal healing next time we're in town, or possibly make some when I hit 5th level (Craft Wand looks nice this time of year). 'Cause our poor cleric could use some help. :P
As I understand it, that they aren't being restrained of forced to rest because of wizards and clerics running out of spells. They are resting because the party runs out of resources to heal the melees.
As I understand it, that they aren't being restrained of forced to rest because of wizards and clerics running out of spells. They are resting because the party runs out of resources to heal the melees.So what exactly are you trying to say here, that the fighter is using up your party resources at a faster rate?I'm playing in (yay, I'm not GMing :P) a game every Saturday at the moment. We're still at low levels where martials are the kings of the world relative to other classes. The GM also has a house rule that gives classes bonus HP equal to 1/2 their HD, so Fighters begin with an extra +5 HP which increases their longevity decently enough.
We're doing a dungeon crawler in a mega-dungeon. There are five of us. A Fighter, a Synthesist (who unfortunately passed in the last session due to a x3 crit and shall be missed), a Cleric, a (I think) Ranger, and a Wizard. So far our activities have more or less revolved around the Cleric and his uses of Channel Energy and sacrificing spells for healing, with the Fighter being one of the first to ask for the heals (which we of course happily provide, so much that I'm thinking of picking up infernal healing to help take some of the strain off the cleric).
Now we do have some healing potions and scrolls, but we're not made of money. The idea of going further into danger by burning our emergency consumables while everyone else is running on empty is tactically asinine. The irony is that the wizard has not actually lacked a spell to cast during the game thus far. The cleric and synthesist didn't either, except to heal.
Even a wand of cure light wounds costs 15 gp/charge. That's an average of 3 gp to 1 hp restored. I'm going to see if there are any secondhand wands of infernal healing next time we're in town, or possibly make some when I hit 5th level (Craft Wand looks nice this time of year). 'Cause our poor cleric could use some help. :P
That's exactly what I'm saying. And it shouldn't be construed by anyone that the martials aren't doing their job. I'm perfectly happy with the martials being in our dungeon crawl. In our most recent session I swapped my spell loadout to be buff-heavy with enlarge person x2, silent image x1. I use the silent images to create illusory walls to protect the martials from arrow fire and enlarge person to increase their damage and reach.
Just that even at these levels where martials are literally the strongest members of the party we have had to stop frequently due to resting being a more viable option than burning through spells and such. In fact, my wizard is taking ranks in Heal so soon I'll be able to help the martials recover more HP on rest (my character doesn't have to sleep so I can at least tend wounds while I'm keeping watch).
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If you want to add Versatility to the Fighter, you have to do two things: You have to free up more feats so he can diversify, and you have to make feats for a fighter equal to full blown class features of other classes.
There should be no 'fighter only feats'. Simply tie all feats to Bravery, Weapon training or Armor Training...the unique Fighter class features.
For instance: Weapon Focus: +1 to hit with a weapon.
Weapon Specialization: If you have Weapon Training, Weapon Focus instead doubles the benefits of weapon training for that weapon. ANd it even kicks in at level 4!
There you go. Eliminates 3 feats. Weapon Specialization becomes a subset of Weapon Focus with ties to Fighter class features. A fighter gets more out of the feat. And the urge of writers to say 'this class over here qualifies as a fighter for weapon spec' becomes meaningless. Stop tying feats to being a fighter, and tie them to Fighter class features. You know, like Rage feats, and arcana pool feats!
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Iron Will: +2 To WIll Saves. This auto scales at 10th to Improved.
Resolute: If you have the Bravery class feature, this bonus to will saves increases by your Bravery Bonus. Add your Int bonus to the re-roll.
Boom, class feature is now actually USEFUL. Effectively, Iron Will now gives you a Strong Will Save.
Bravery should represent the mental focus and toughness of the fighter, and be applicable to a lot of situations. Exploit it as a class feature...it gains the highest bonus of any of his features.
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Skill Focus: +3 to a skill, +6 at 10th.
Highly-trained: If you are a Fighter, this skill becomes a class skill for you. You gain a morale bonus equal to your Bravery bonus on this skill. At Bravery +3, you may always take 10 on this skill.
This reflects the fact that fighters train, train, and train some more. It doesn't grant them extra skill points, but if they choose to blow a feat on something, they are awesome at it.
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Armor Training: This grants a +1 Dodge bonus per level, a +1 DR x/- when in armor or using a shield (stacking with adamantine armor) and -1 to ACP. Raising the Dex limit means that unless you have a monstrous dex, this is a wasted class feature. Just give them the AC bonus and be done with it. Also grants them the per level DR they should have.
Great Fortitude: +2 to Fort Saves. Autoscales to Improved at 10th.
Unending Vitality: This bonus is increased by the amount of your Armor Training. Add your Int bonus to the re-roll.
Blow a feat, get a barbarian-level Fort save. Armor training is an excellent qualifier for anything to deal with toughness, endurance, fortitude, or physical vitality.
Weapon Training: +1 Th/Dmg per weapon group...period. The bonus applies to a new weapon group every 4 levels (no declining bonus). --The Fighter should be awesome with weapons, not less and less awesome with weapons.
Lightning Reflexes: +2 to Reflex Saves. Auto scales to Improved at 10th.
Evasive Footwork: If you have Weapon training, this bonus increases by your Weapon training bonus. If you are using a normal or large Shield and have Shield Weapon training, you gain the shield's bonus on Reflex saves against Area of Effect attacks. Add your Int bonus to the re-roll.
Now, more reward for using a shield, and a good Reflex save. Weapon Training is an excellent bar for anything dealing with coordination, fast reflexes, control, or combat skill, naturally.
Now, you have a Fort bonus as good as a barbarian.
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Toughness: Gain +3 hp or +1 hp/level.
Stalwart: Your Fighter Hit Die become d12's, and your average hit points increase accordingly. If you roll for hit points, gain an additional +1 hp/ prior levels instead.
OR you may gain +1 Skill point per Fighter level.
etc etc.
Just start making Fighters the kings of feats...and when they take feats, those feats are the equal of any other classes class feature.
Here's a sample one to help the party:
Death Trance (OA 3.5 feat): You are immune to fear.
Courage: If you have the Bravery class feature, you grant your Bravery as a morale bonus against Fear to anyone who can see you. If you have IRon Will, this becomes a morale bonus to all their Will saves.
Vital Strike: This feat auto scales at BAB 6, 11 and 16 for all classes for gaining additional dice of damage.
If you choose to take a Full Attack action with a single strike, you also gain either a +2 to hit, +2 to AC, or +2 to a save of your choice. This bonus increases by +1 for each Vital Strike die you have.(Thus, you can take this feat at level 1 and benefit).
One Strike: You may include your Weapon training and Weapon Specialization bonuses on your Vital Strike dice. You may gain Vital Strike dice when Charging, Cleaving (1 attack), Whirlwinding (1 attack) or Spring Attacking when using a weapon you have Weapon Training in.
Expertise: +AC/-TH as normal. You may take a lesser bonus if desired.
Master: Reduce the ability score requirements of all feats by your Weapon Training + Bravery (this applies to this feat as well). Designate a number of your combat feats equal to your Bravery bonus as 'Training feats'. With an hour of practice, you may change any of those feats to any other feat you qualify for.
(Expertise thus really does make you an expert! You don't need even more feats if you can take the feats you have and re-task them. Note that the Fighter is the only class that cannot get more of his class features by spending a feat...by allowing feats to do multi-duty, we can get around that.)
Fleet of Foot: +5 to movement.
Armored Speed: You gain +5 additional movement as an enhancement bonus for each level of Armor Training you have. (Who needs boots of striding?).
Endurance: As normal.
Resolve: You gain temporary hit points at the beginning of your turn equal to your Bravery bonus. These hit points do not stack with themselves.
Dodge: +1 Dodge bonus to AC
Nimbler: The bonus increases by your Armor Training when Fighting Defensively or using Expertise.
Mobility: +4 Dodge bonus to AoE's from movement.
Awareness: The bonus increases by your Armor Training, and applies against ALL AoE's. At Armor Training +2, you keep your Dodge bonuses when flat-footed.
Improved Initiative: +4 to Init.
Quick to React: The bonus increases by your Weapon Training bonus. You may Quick Draw any weapon you have Weapon Training in.
Combat Reflexes: +Dex to AoO's, min +1
Warrior's Reflexes: The number of AoO's increases by your Weapon training bonus.
Penetrate Damage Reduction: You ignore 5 pts of DR x/type. At BAB 11, this becomes 10/type, or 5/-.
Anathema: If you already bypass the DR, you instead do +5 or +10 damage, as appropriate.
Favored Class bonuses:
Skill Point: If you use Fighter FC bonuses to gain 3 ranks in a skill, it becomes a class skill.
Hit Points: If you use Fighter FC bonuses to gain hit points, they are considered temporary hit points that renew at the beginning of every round. These hit points stack with Endurance hit points.
Stat Reqs: You may spend a Fighter FC bonus to reduce the stat reqs of all feats by 2 (maximum -10).
The trick is then to make non-magical bonuses exceptional and not easily replaced.
It's also to limit the bonuses that can apply, and things that can be done, by Ranks invested.
I.e. if you don't have 13 Ranks in Spellcraft, then you simply cannot make an item with CL13 or higher. Period. Doesn't matter your bonuses.
You need 10 Ranks in Climb to climb at your normal move, not a -10 penalty to the DC. Bonuses should only apply to overcome penalties. Ranks should determine what you are capable of.
Other: if you don't have 5 ranks in Smithing, you can't Craft Mithral. Period. You need 7 Ranks for other skymetals, and 10 for Adamantium and Horacalcum. It takes an awesomely skilled smith to make those things.
Etc etc.
==Aelryinth
A fighter is what you make of it.
You can't complain that because I took a fighter's concept down road A that he sucks cause he can't do B. That is purposefully looking at the fighter's path and coming up with a complete opposite just so you can win an argument.
Endless beating of the dead horse.
Archery Feats (15 feats)
Point Blank
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Many Shot
Cluster Shot
Point Blank Mastery
Weapon Focus (Bow)
Weapon Specialization (Bow)
Greater Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Specialization
Deadly Aim
Snap Shot
Greater Snap Shot
Combat ReflexesThis means a lot of archers go human and going
1st Point Blank, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
2nd Deadly Aim
3rd Weapon Focus
4th Weapon Specialization
5th Weapon Point Blank Mastery
6th Many Shot
7th Cluster Shot
8th Greater Weapon Focus (bow)
9th Snap Shot
10 Combat Reflexes
11 Improved Precise Shot
12 Greater Weapon Specialization
13 Improved Snap Shot
14 Greater Snap ShotTo max out an archer you need to go to level 14 without a single feat free, you could make it level 12 by skipping the greater fighter feats but that still doesn't give you any free feats. Mind you that does mean you threaten everyone in 15 feet have ten or so attacks of opportunity and do outrageous damage.
So only fighters can be archers?
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Can't see it as boring not when you can stand above the battlefield (I love Air Walk) like some celestial general watching as your many peons (summon natures allies+ AC) fight upon your be-hath as your dazing ball of fire floats about the battle dazing everyone and you rain lightning from above.Wind chime, it is true that fighters don't "get" much. You have to build them. You can build them to do crowd control, to grapple or to do just about any combat option (and usually more than one) than any other class.
And if you decide to full attack instead, that's always an option too.
I always look for ways to play my characters differently than the standard "boring" way. Frankly a pounce-grapple-rake send in the AC druid is pretty plain vanilla boring to me.
Windchime, I think you just like to stir up the pot! LOL One has to build a fighter just like any other class. If you want your fighter to "crowd control" then you have missed the point of a fighter.
Last PSF session I GM'd I have a Pre-Gen fighter run up in front of a Basilisk and force it to turn away from the main body of the party to save them from the gaze attacks. He succeeded, and the party was able to finish off the other Bassie, (Which he had done major damage to the round before). He stood there and soaked up a couple gaze attacks that would have wiped the remainder of the party - he made his ST; while doing very credible damage to the Bassie - to death. He did a marvelous job of "tanking" (to borrow a phrase from computer MMO's) and allowed the party to survive an otherwise deadly encounter.
Trash them all you want, but Fighters have their place in the game, and it is secure.
EDIT: AD - I think you were the one that said something about Air Walk? (If not, apologies) but that just makes you the number one target! LOL
EDIT: AD - I think you were the one that said something about Air Walk? (If not, apologies) but that just makes you the number one target! LOL
Nope, that wasn't me.
Well only Fighter and Zen Archer Monk and Rangers can be full time Archers
You don’t need to be a full time Archer to be an archer also it’s a matter of how you define full time Archer.
(no need for melee weapons)
Having a plan B is never bad.
suffering AoP's for each arrow shot in close combat.
I’ve seen people play “full time Archers“ without the Point Blank Master feat or simillar abilities.
I agree with Durngrun Stonebreaker, fighter is not the only class that can be an archer, Bards, Clerics, Paladins, Inquisitors and even Barbarians can be archers.
Well only Fighter and Zen Archer Monk and Rangers can be full time ArchersYou don’t need to be a full time Archer to be an archer also it’s a matter of how you define full time Archer.
(no need for melee weapons)Having a plan B is never bad.
suffering AoP's for each arrow shot in close combat.I’ve seen people play “full time Archers“ without the Point Blank Master feat or simillar abilities.
I agree with Durngrun Stonebreaker, fighter is not the only class that can be an archer, Bards, Clerics, Paladins, Inquisitors and even Barbarians can be archers.
Yea, someone agrees with me! (What point did I make?) Also, thank you for using my full made up name. That was very polite.
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I apologize for my iteration in this thread of wizard vs. fighter, and also for projecting my ideals of stylized gameplay. I think it's obvious that everyone wants an epic character at some point, and I'd have to agree that it's unfair that fighters get the short end of the stick.
All I was trying to get at earlier was that I find it unnerving when characters have such high bonuses to skills that the task they're accomplishing becomes trivial to the gameplay. Rolling dice becomes unimportant when you essentially automatically succeed, which to me is boring. But it is indeed unfair that spellcasters should have the ability to automatically succeed and others should fail.
So, to get more on track...
If I were to recommend anything to be given to the fighter to make them meatier and more interesting to play, it would probably have to be some form of fighter talents similar to rogue talents or more fighter specific feats. These talents or feats would have to be powerful enough to put fighters in line with the utility and damage of other classes.
I know this solution sounds obvious and boring and I'm sure someone somewhere has already recommended it, so I'll just list a few ideas for flavor...
These are of course just recommendations, and any actual implementation would require fine tuning...
Dazing Shout
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V
Range: close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: one creature of 1 HD/fighter level
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: Will negates
The fighter can use Dazing Shout an amount of times per day equal to 1 + con mod. The save DC is 10 + 1/2 fighter level + constitution modifier.
Notes: This would hopefully be utilized against flying enemies, dazing them and subsequently making them suffer falling damage as well as putting them within range of the melee fighter.
Intimidating Presence
Any enemy creature who enters a 30ft. radius of the fighter must make a will save or be demoralized. The creature must have line of sight on the fighter. The save DC is 10 + 1/2 fighter level + charisma modifier. Any enemy who succeeds at the save isn't required to make another save until 24 hours have passed.
Notes: This would give the fighter some utility as a debuffer on enemies.
I would have to agree with other posters that fighters should have at least 4 skill points, and that their will save should be better. I don't want to list to many suggestions because realistically I don't see them being implemented by Paizo, and I don't see any GMs going out of their way to incorporate them.
Thanks for reading, and best of luck to anyone who feels that their fighter is underpowered and tweaking their fighters until they're made better officially. =P
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I can't say I would complain about killing archetypes by improving the core chassis. Archetypes add a lot of options true, but at least in the Fighter's case they should have added stuff to the class BEFORE trading stuff out.@Aelrith:
Tying feats to class features like that kills every archetype ever printed.
Also, honestly, given that this is already in the realm of the houserule it isn't hard to improvise.
I do like more modular solutions (such as daily feat "preparation" instead of being locked in) though. On the other hand, Iron Will using your bravery bonus would be frickin' awesome. Now I'm conflicted!
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I can't say I would complain about killing archetypes by improving the core chassis. Archetypes add a lot of options true, but at least in the Fighter's case they should have added stuff to the class BEFORE trading stuff out.@Aelrith:
Tying feats to class features like that kills every archetype ever printed.
Most Fighter Archetypes shouldn't exist. Their abilities should just be feats that auto-scale.
the whole idea that only THW archetype guys can get a better Power Attack blows. That only TWF archetypes can get scaling Weapon training on both their weapons, and a scaling defense blows. That only the Mobile Fighter can move and attack with iteratives blows.
Etc etc etc.
I've made up a 20 level archetype for a Vital Strike Fighter. I shouldn't have to DO that. It should be something any fighter should be able to do.
==Aelryinth
I can't say I would complain about killing archetypes by improving the core chassis. Archetypes add a lot of options true, but at least in the Fighter's case they should have added stuff to the class BEFORE trading stuff out.@Aelrith:
Tying feats to class features like that kills every archetype ever printed.Also, honestly, given that this is already in the realm of the houserule it isn't hard to improvise.
I do like more modular solutions (such as daily feat "preparation" instead of being locked in) though. On the other hand, Iron Will using your bravery bonus would be frickin' awesome. Now I'm conflicted!
Glad you like the idea.
Fighters should get more out of feats then any other class. They should autoscale.
And feats should be worth the taking. Worth as much as any class feature.
We all know Bravery is useless. A Cleric with a Good Will save does better against fear then a Brave Fighter at EVERY level. But if Bravery represents the mental focus and dedication of the fighter, ahhhh...that opens up MANY possibilities for feat synergy...and that's what the fighter is all about.
Did you know the fighter is pretty much the only class that can't take a feat to gain more class features? heh. Every spellcaster can take Extra Spell, if nothing else. Barbs can get more rage, paladins more channels/healing, rogues more talents, monks more ki points.
The fighter can't get more feats, more weapon training, more armor training, more Bravery.
Cruel, eh?
==Aelryinth
The fighter's gimmick is feats. The player is free to choose half of them to be the non-combat kind is desired, making it possible to do something besides DPR. Also, those classes you listed peak situationally, whereas the fighter always has his ability turned "on". Barbarian has to rage, summoner has limited spells, gunslingers need ammunition, paladin must fighter evil, cavaliers must challenge.The summoner always has his eidolon 'turned on" and the Eidolon is worth two fighters early on.
That certainly is a balance issue, well brought up good sir. That is why I do not allow summoners. Paizo got excited and threw them in, but they are not balanced. Shameful display paizo.
Similarly, I am disgusted by the "fighter training" of the magus. Not even a full bab class and you can get weapon spec? The fighter feat that not even barbs or rangers on full bab can take? Low.
The problem with fighters is that the magus steals one of their main things.
Fighters and Rogues are the most "realistic" characters in the game as stands and they are the weakest for that self-same reason.
The more rules you can break in a game, the better. Fighters and Rogues are "fair." They gain a level and they get a bit better at an okay thing, physically attacking a foe's AC for HP damage.
Spells, however, are "unfair" because they do things that somebody might not otherwise be able to do. Now, people who talk about Fighters getting 4 skill points are right but compare magic, low-level utility magic, to skills. Many of those spells give +10, +20, even +30 to some skill checks.
The problem with Pathfinder is the problem since 3.0 onwards: Magic is shockingly better than skill points and feats. Given enough time in the system, spells will be published that trivialize every skill point and feat that a Fighter would get.
Got a good understanding there. Yes I sign in just to compliment people. Deal with it, lol.
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Fighters and Rogues are the most "realistic" characters in the game as stands and they are the weakest for that self-same reason.
I don't find fighters to be "weak". I was doing 300+ damage per round with my fighter, and killing end-of-adventure-path BBEG in one full round. That's not weak.
Fighters are bland, not weak. The problem with them (or MY problem with them), is that they don't contribute with anything at all to the cooperative side of the game. Except with HP and Damage. But everybody else has HP and Damage too, and they can do extra things.
I remember that in the route to defeat the BBEG in Kingmaker, my sword was sundered to death. Then I was there, being absolutelly and completely useless. Until the fellow cleric took a scroll of make Whole, and repaired the sword. Then he cast greater magic weapon, and there I go, a party member again.
Fun fact: I was a blacksmither. But I was unable to repair my sword. The cleric did so in two hand strokes.
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I honestly don't understand this concept of fighters being limited. Is it really badwrongfun to have a nonoptimized character and have fun using it? I mean, almost all of these examples people are posting like "oh but the barbarian can... Oh but the ranger can..." are really making a point of saying "but if you optimize this class it can be better than if you optimize your class".
Which, for some people, it appears that is all that matters.
I have built many fighters, in many editions of polyhedral gaming, that were, stats wise, far below average. These fighters were great at many things. I built an Int/Dex fighter in 3.5 that was a great scout. He could sneak just as good as the rogue. He did just as good in social interaction as the bard. The only thing he couldn't do was cast fireball. Was I sad about that? No! i thought I had a great, fun character. Of course the wizard did more AOE damage. Of course the barbarian did more DPR. What my fighter did was fill in spots that our party could use assistance in. And he did this in ALL of those spots. We do our social encounters in such a way that each character has a turn, makes their checks, and at the end of the "round" you determine if the party successfully did what they were trying to do. My fighter did great in those. He helped the rogue scout. He kept bad guys off the wizard. He had UMD. i want to make a pathfinder version of him because honestly, with the amount of feats you get, he could be ten times better. I feel as though a lot of people on this thread are only looking at optimized builds to determine a classes effectiveness. They look at "well, if you make a TWF fighter then you may only take TWF feats, always, forever. I completely agree with AD. Feats can create versatility, if you use them as such. They can make you a one trick pony, too.
And I think that because if that, the fighter is catching a lot of crap he/she doesn't deserve.
I honestly don't understand this concept of fighters being limited. Is it really badwrongfun to have a nonoptimized character and have fun using it?
It is not, at all. If you have fun with it, go play it. If you have fun with a commoner, you can play it too. I know a guy which had a lot of fun playing vagabonds pitiful characters (he always took the pitiful merit in World of Darkness, had a vagabond in Call of Chthulu, and a leper vagabond in Stormbringer). If you have fun, of course you should make them.
That doesn't change, though, the FACT that fighters bring less to the table than other classes. That's not something you can argue, really. Sure, you could make a fighter with INT/Dex and able to sneak and talk. I once made a pirate captain which was a fighter, and I got tumbling, profesion sailor, some bluffing and a few "roguish" skills, back in 3.0. It would be MUCH easier with other classes though.
So yes, you can have fun with a fighter. I did with mine. But that doesn't change the fact that the fighter is way more limited than a lot of other classes, who can do what the fighters do, and more.
I honestly don't understand this concept of fighters being limited. Is it really badwrongfun to have a nonoptimized character and have fun using it? I mean, almost all of these examples people are posting like "oh but the barbarian can... Oh but the ranger can..." are really making a point of saying "but if you optimize this class it can be better than if you optimize your class".
Which, for some people, it appears that is all that matters.
The problem stems from there being non-optimal, but interesting and fun concept (Using a weird, seldom used weapon to decent effect, that kinda thing) and a non-optimal choice for that concept.
If you want to do X, and Class A can do X, but Classes B and C do X miles better, why would you ever choose Class A other than to specifically gimp yourself?
Now, if you then take Class A and tweak him here and there to be on par with Class B and C in doing X, then it's a choice between 3 equally good (if different) options, so the only thing that matters is "Can it carry out the concept" instead of "Can it carry out the concept as well as something else?"
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I honestly don't understand this concept of fighters being limited. Is it really badwrongfun to have a nonoptimized character and have fun using it? I mean, almost all of these examples people are posting like "oh but the barbarian can... Oh but the ranger can..." are really making a point of saying "but if you optimize this class it can be better than if you optimize your class".
Which, for some people, it appears that is all that matters.
The problem stems from there being non-optimal, but interesting and fun concept (Using a weird, seldom used weapon to decent effect, that kinda thing) and a non-optimal choice for that concept.
If you want to do X, and Class A can do X, but Classes B and C do X miles better, why would you ever choose Class A other than to specifically gimp yourself?
Now, if you then take Class A and tweak him here and there to be on par with Class B and C in doing X, then it's a choice between 3 equally good (if different) options, so the only thing that matters is "Can it carry out the concept" instead of "Can it carry out the concept as well as something else?"
I suppose from a mechanical point, you may be right. I honestly have the least experience with PF as far as versions of this game, I just feel that a lot of the time everyone overlooks non optimized versions before writing a class off. Perhaps that's because I care more for the story, the role play aspect?
It is true that there are a lot of classes out there now with a LOT of shiny toys. Perhaps then this is an issue of the fighter not sucking, but the new guys having better stuff? I love the fighter class. The feats, to me, seem like an endless possibility to make the most versatile character of all time. I mean, a paladin gets smite evil as a class ability. Sure, it's a mega damage dealer. But do i want that to be the best thing I have, my defining attribute? With a fighter, I feel like now I can take enough feats to make a character who can swing his sword, fire his bow, use a wand, speak all the languages, convince the shopkeeper that ruby really IS worth a billion gp, and go out and kill stuff. Sure, I may only deal 300 damage when the barbarian is doing 500, but.... so what? Stack the two together against the same monster. When both classes go full attack, the beholder is still dead at the end, even if the barbarian did 500 more damage overkill.
Maybe the fighter isn't meant to be a front line melee DPR guy anymore? Maybe his role has changed... Perhaps now, it's an issue with the name of the class. I believe that maybe now, the fighter is meant to be whatever you make it, whatever you think it can be. Its versatility may now make it a class that can be the ultimate support class, something to use if your party is lacking a major player.
Yea, someone agrees with me! (What point did I make?) Also, thank you for using my full made up name. That was very polite.
Your point? I thought your archer question was rhetorical, LOL.
full name, no problem :-) and you got a Cool avatar.
So let’s say fighter did get a boost, 4 skills / level, more class skills, better saves, one feat chain scaling and more fighter feats, some out of combat abilities, what would that do to the Cavalier and samurai?
Why not just roll the fighter and Cavalier into one class and make the samurai a fighter archetype? The Cavalier could be one of many fighter paths.
Some general thoughts:
Paizo should let some feat chains scale for all classes and remove some feat taxes. Combat expertise, weapon finesse and selective channeling, Shadow Strike are just some of them.
Boost what skills can do, as of now the skill monkey concept really don’t work which is hurting classes like the rogue and vanilla bard.
Make the swashbuckler concept possible, it would help dex-fighter , monk, rogue and dex-bard or any player that wants to play a pirate or Zorro kind of character. Create a feat similar to Dervish dance but that applies to any one handed weapon.
If a feat, class or prestige class (like Duelist) demands that you keep your of hand free from weapons or shields, the character should be able to use that hand for something. Abilities like those that the Free Hand Fighter gets comes in to mind.
Remove most fighter archetypes and let people build their own fighter.