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Why would it?
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Depends on the reason for helping. Are they fighting off a greater evil? Are they "helping" in order to keep something hidden from them (like a bunch of kids the Nazis want to kill off)?
Kind of reminds of me that old G.I. Joe episode when they teamed up with Cobra to fight drug dealers - because drugs are bad even if you're the villain.
It depends on the exact circumstances, but the reference to going up against a common enemy inclines me to think that it shouldn't be an alignment altering thing. Especially since single events usually shouldn't cause an alignment shift unless they're very extreme acts.
That said, a lot does depend on the details. Even Paladins are allowed to temporarily work alongside Evil if it's in the service of the Greater Good, after all. If it's a case of reluctantly working with one set of bad guys to deal with another, even worse set of bad guys, then I'd say that's not an alignment issue, just pragmatism. On the other hand, if they're sacrificing babies to demons as part of the alliance, then they've kinda hopped into Evil territory.
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This can be a good rule of thumb:
If the characters feel guilty having to work along side them, it's not alignment altering on their part.
If the characters revel in the thought of working with Nazis and are planing their next genocidal campaign with them, then their alignment should shift.
Examples of single acts that can change alignment:
Burning down an Orphanage, and violating the corpses.
Selling one's soul to a Devil.
Atonement spell.
Opening a gate to the Abyss, for the sole purpose of creating chaos.
1. They could have had it coming.
2. Could just be pawning it or planning on buying it back later.3. Agreed.
4. It's generally agreed upon that doing it "for the lulz" absolves you of guilt on the internet; I don't see why a completely unrelated fantasy RPG world would function any differently.
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Burning down an Orphanage, and violating the corpses.
Wouldn't that be multiple acts? ;)
It's generally agreed upon that doing it "for the lulz" absolves you of guilt on the internet
Really? Huh. I've always thought the opposite.
At least, that's just my opinion, man.
It's generally agreed upon that doing it "for the lulz" absolves you of guilt on the internetReally? Huh. I've always thought the opposite.
At least, that's just my opinion, man.
I don't see why Encyclopedia Dramatica would lie to me ;p
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I don't see why Encyclopedia Dramatica would lie to me ;pIt's generally agreed upon that doing it "for the lulz" absolves you of guilt on the internetReally? Huh. I've always thought the opposite.
At least, that's just my opinion, man.
Helping Nazis might not change your alignment.
But it probably means that your alignment isn't Good, so you might have mislabeled it and it might be in need of correction. (probably not chaotic either)
An absolute minimum "Cooperation against an even greater evil for a very short time." might be ok.
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My players assisted Nazis because they were in a war with the dragons and a cult. They technically have a common enemy but I'm not sure what to make of this...
Should this be taken as an alignment alteration?
I'm completely stumped.
If this is a parody thread, forgive my earnestness because I didn't see it, but:
Depends? I mean did they help a squad of drafted Wehrmacht troopers fight a zombie horde or did they help Belloc and the boys steal the Ark of the Covenant?
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Dunno does helping Stalinists fight Nazi's change your alignment?
;-)
Hello DB
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Wehrmacht != Nazi
(Not necessarily, anyway)
Yes, I know. I guess what I meant was: was it a situational, "oh, we'll ally with you, Herr Hauptmann and squad to fight a dragon cult who's got us pinned down" or are Hitler, Himmler, Heydrich and Goebbels coming along as NPCs?
Dunno does helping Stalinists fight Nazi's change your alignment?
;-)
Hello DB
And where does the Molotov-Ribbentropp pact fall into all of this?
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No, nevermind, must not derail! Bad dwarf and goblin!
And where does the Molotov-Ribbentropp pact fall into all of this?Dunno does helping Stalinists fight Nazi's change your alignment?
;-)
Hello DB
Molotov used to make funky cocktails and then somebody had to go make a mess with the icepick.
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No, nevermind, must not derail! Bad dwarf and goblin!
Doh! but I was having such fun.
Does helping Nazis efect your alignment?
Does killing Nazis effect your alignment?
Are Nazis human? Or are they demonic abominations who sold their souls?
ALL.....U SUNZABICHES......OWE ME....ONE.....THOUSAND NAZZY SCALPS!..
So, what I'm saying is.....as long as you can immediately beat, stab, shoot, immolate, or otherwise end the life of the nazi or nazis in question once all the dragons are kilt,
it's not evil.
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Was the entire country of Germany evil during WW2?
I tend to think not.
The USA is killing one child a week on average in Pakistan right now with our flying death robot program. I'm not evil. I pay taxes, some of which get spent on those flying death robots.
Lesson: War is confusing and generically immoral all around, and morality is typically set aside during it.
Helping Nazis might not change your alignment.
But it probably means that your alignment isn't Good, so you might have mislabeled it and it might be in need of correction. (probably not chaotic either)
An absolute minimum "Cooperation against an even greater evil for a very short time." might be ok.
I think you might be assuming that by "helping" he means the PCs are helping the Nazis do Nazi things. I don't think that's the case. I think they are just cooperating temporarily in a mutually bad scenario.
Good people can find themselves in bad situations. Bad situations might require compromise for getting-through. Only paladins are expected to die (or go to similar extremes) to protect their alignment. Everybody else gets to act human, and humans sometimes need to get along with bad people in order to get through a tough few minutes.
They just shouldn't make a habit of it. And make sure the Nazis know that it's not over. I'm sure the Nazis themselves are just waiting for the right moment to call the truce off. They're not exactly the most trustworthy of allies.
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Lesson: War is confusing and generically immoral all around, and morality is typically set aside during it.
It's much more complicated than that, though. I would not say war is "immoral." War is "amoral." That is to say it is morality-neutral, because what happens in it is generally a necessity. So to speak.
That said, check your recent history. Soldiers are expected to act in moral ways, or to not go so far out of their way as to be guilty of war crimes. So there is some expectation of moral behavior on the part of the soldiers. "Fog of war" and "I was just following orders" do not excuse a soldier anymore.
See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_convention
Helping Nazis might not change your alignment.
But it probably means that your alignment isn't Good, so you might have mislabeled it and it might be in need of correction. (probably not chaotic either)
An absolute minimum "Cooperation against an even greater evil for a very short time." might be ok.
I think you might be assuming that by "helping" he means the PCs are helping the Nazis do Nazi things. I don't think that's the case. I think they are just cooperating temporarily in a mutually bad scenario.
Good people can find themselves in bad situations. Bad situations might require compromise for getting-through. Only paladins are expected to die (or go to similar extremes) to protect their alignment. Everybody else gets to act human, and humans sometimes need to get along with bad people in order to get through a tough few minutes.
They just shouldn't make a habit of it. And make sure the Nazis know that it's not over. I'm sure the Nazis themselves are just waiting for the right moment to call the truce off. They're not exactly the most trustworthy of allies.
Indeed. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the fact that even the Paladin's Code (which sets just about the strictest standard for Good behavior around) has a clause saying it's okay to work with/tolerate a lesser evil to accomplish a greater good is pretty relevant. If a Paladin can do it without Falling, then any other good-aligned character is probably okay too.
Watching the JoJo's Bizarre Adventures anime, a parallel question comes up: does accepting help from Nazis affect your alignment? ^.^
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I think there is a much more important question here:
Does helping you fight an evil dragon and cult, change the alignment of the nazis?
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Are we classifying dragons/nazis by evil now? I think I'd go about:
Black > Red > Nazi > White > Green > Blue
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Anyway, I'd like to make a comment on whether single acts change alignment. In general, no. You can do something that's "not you" and not have it immediately change you. For example, a generally nice kid steals a bag of sweets from the store, and stealing is not Good. Does the child immediately turn Evil? No. But if it turns into a habit, that's another story.
Now that's on a very different scale, so let's go a bit higher. A generally nice guy finds out his wife is cheating on him, and kills her in a fit of passion. Does he turn evil? Not necessarily; he committed an evil act, but your alignment isn't just the value of your latest act.
So when does alignment change? That's a tricky question, and I'm not sure there's a canonically correct answer. Various D&D/PF books have gone back and forth on this.
* Some people think Alignment is a sort of rolling average of the things you've been doing recently. If you've been doing evil things, you become evil. Alignment is basically the balance of what you've been doing; if you've been doing evil things, apparently you're evil. The problem with this could be that if an evil character abstains from doing evil things for a while (because he's trying to avoid attention from the PC paladin) he might turn Good all of a sudden. Actions->Alignment.
* Other people think Alignment is what you really feel and want, and that it'll determine what actions you take. Alignment->Actions.
I lean towards the latter position, but not entirely. I think there's a feedback here: if you're doing a lot of evil, your alignment will tend to shift towards evil. And evil people tend to engage in evil actions.
If you can prevent evil people from engaging in evil, there's the possibility that they'll drift towards more neutral behavior. This is where the Paladin's Lawful Good authority comes in: by policing society, preventing the people from wrongdoing, they'll internalize those rules and actually become more good.
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So how about them nazis?
Working with evil people is risky, because you might start to see their side of the story. This matters more if the PCs actually fraternize than if it's only professional military cooperation.
However, merely working together with evil people is not evil; it depends on the goal. If the goal is neutral or good (stopping a dragon cult), then the cooperation isn't inherently bad.
In fact, there is some possibility that the nazis might shift away from evil just a little bit. But nazis are often considered to be hardened in their evil, so don't expect much from this.
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You have a campaign with Dragons, Cultists and Nazis going on?
This thread is so much fun!
(Oh and the answer to the OP's kveschun: Every act affects your alignment. How much? Difficult to measure empirically. But remember: it is not whether one wins or loses, but how one plays the game! )
Evil are always free to evilly plot against other evil while good are not free to plot against good, it's totally unfair!
That's the *advantage* of being good. You just have to worry about the evil people. If you're evil, you have to worry about the good people, and you have to worry about all the evil people who aren't under your direct control.
To answer the question, though, even the paladin class says you can associate with evil people to defeat a greater evil as long as it's not a constant relationship.