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How much did your bowtie cost? How much did the tophat cost?My Order of the Paw Samurai's wolf has a top hat and bowtie for social scenarios.
In fact, at the party at the beginning of First Steps part 2, my wolf was the ONLY one in the party to dress up...
Simple, nobles clothing+the modification costs for for fitting unusual "armor" on a creature. Since that is a creative solution, it is legal.
Do you think the Eagle Knights appreciate you putting your military rank on a bonded outsider? Did you pay for the rank twice? Can you even buy vanities for your Eidolon?
The Eagle Knights probably wouldn't mind, considering it's keeping with their egalitarian philosophy. It's not like I'm putting it on an animal, rather, I'm putting it on an intelligent being, which is my point. Same could apply to a familar or if a good dragon showed up and applied for membership.
As for did I pay for the rank twice? The answer is no. I looked to see if it could be done and the answer was no. But I would of. However, my eidolon did what I said it did; changed the color of his feathers to match his summoner's uniform jacket. I can say my eidolon thinks of itself as an Eagle Knight and truthfully there is only a minor quible in that the eagle knights have never been presented with this situation (i.e. nobody thought to ask if I could buy a boon for my Eidolon before I asked about it) and 'are working it out'. If it came up in game, my PC would probably try to diplomacize the situation.
And that is well within player pervue.
I can see where there are some genuine objections and legitimate questions as to whether a character's 'buddy' can be included in certain situations. But when a GM unduly penalizes an idea they don't like or doesn't fit their preconceptions, they can be in the wrong.
Andrew got it right when I presented him with the bipedal eidolon wife with the social skills to be seen as such in saying 'as always, circumstances create flux.'
I'm not against the 'pet' being left out of the dinner party being the default position. But it should not be blanket. If there is a logical in game reason (and perhaps some roles) for that to be overlooked, for example, the animal companion is part of the entertainment, the eidolon is the wife, or the sorcerer had dumped intelligence and the familar is the 'brains' of the operation, the blind oracle 'needs' its seeing eye beast or whatever, then exceptions should be considered.
All that comes under role playing.
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You are taking several liberties with the Summoner class, Kerney.
Actually, I'm using RAW. I am, as far as I can see, suggesting character concepts you do not approve of. Those are two different things. Basically, what I am suggesting doesn't fit your preconceptions, so your calling them 'liberties'. I call it you simply not thinking out all the logical takes on an eidolon.
Just because you haven't had sexual relations with an eidolon, doesn't mean others haven't.
I vaguely remeber that there are feats and traits that grant your summonings celestial and infernal traits (I'm going from memory, so I may be off). The plane a 'fantastic' (a purposely vague term) eidolon comes from is left blank, but it could concievably be a celestial or infernal plane. Therefore if an eidolon had children (again, nothing says they can't and if Dragons can, eidolons seem easy) they could have decendants that have their celestial/infernal traits exposed and could be tieflings and assimars.
I can also see many GMs simply not addressing it. I can also see, from my perspective, many GMs calling BS on you referring to your bonded outsider as Sir Feathers of the Andoran Eagle Knights.
Like I said, all my eidolon is doing is copying his summoners cool clothes. I don't believe there are rules against copying cool clothes. If the summoner were invited to an 'Eagle knight only event' she'd ask the knight in charge if my eidolon could come i.e. make a diplomancy check. I think most GM's would make it reasonably low (say 10 to 20).
Once again these are details most people wouldn't question, just get ready to deal with a GM who takes issue with you applying free vanities to your bonded outsider.
As I pointed out, I'm not using free vanities and have never made claims that I am. You are simply making assumptions that have no basis in reality.
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postSlowly backs away.
LOL, good answer.
But remember, whenever someone comes up to the table with a character concept that makes you speechless, calm down and carefully consider it before reacting.
I never have and never will play a summoner who is 'married'. But I'm sure someone else will now. If you encounter them, be kind, after all it is--
a close bond with one particular outsider.
Hopefully just like your Mumie and Daddy.
Take Care,
Kerney
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I don't care how pretty it is, you ain't bringing your Large Axe Beak into the wedding ceremony for the Blakros Wedding.
And why not? Do you remember the last Blakros social event that did not include combat. I don't. I think the Pathfinder Society gets invited to their events to provide additional security.
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I don't care how pretty it is, you ain't bringing your Large Axe Beak into the wedding ceremony for the Blakros Wedding.And why not? Do you remember the last Blakros social event that did not include combat. I don't. I think the Pathfinder Society gets invited to their events to provide additional security.
They specifically ask you to walk around with peace bonds.
They want you dressed to the nines and you get social roll penalties for looking like crap.
Its a high society event.
Sorry, the dogs and axebeaks and what not can wait at the stables.
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PG-13 guys.
I agree with offintheshower a bit here. Some people choose to create squicky characters because they think its funny or cool.
I'm sorry, I didn't particularly think of it as 'squishy' until I saw Off in the Shower's reaction. I was genuinely thinking of it along the lines of something like Oh My Goddess or I dream of Jeanie, and thinking of the children like I would a half elf or half orc.
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I don't care how pretty it is, you ain't bringing your Large Axe Beak into the wedding ceremony for the Blakros Wedding.And why not? Do you remember the last Blakros social event that did not include combat. I don't. I think the Pathfinder Society gets invited to their events to provide additional security.
Actually, if you recall all the Blakros scenarios, there is only one that is indeed a social event. All the rest are the family asking for pathfinder assistance. So your argument doesn't really hold much water.
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And why not? Do you remember the last Blakros social event that did not include combat. I don't. I think the Pathfinder Society gets invited to their events to provide additional security.Actually, if you recall all the Blakros scenarios, there is only one that is indeed a social event. All the rest are the family asking for pathfinder assistance. So your argument doesn't really hold much water.
It's true, obvious jokes rarely function well when interpreted as serious arguments.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I don't care how pretty it is, you ain't bringing your Large Axe Beak into the wedding ceremony for the Blakros Wedding.And why not? Do you remember the last Blakros social event that did not include combat. I don't. I think the Pathfinder Society gets invited to their events to provide additional security.They specifically ask you to walk around with peace bonds.
They want you dressed to the nines and you get social roll penalties for looking like crap.
Its a high society event.
Come to think of it, I did get some funny looks when I asked them to peace bond my shovel...
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Come to think of it, I did get some funny looks when I asked them to peace bond my shovel...
They made me turn out my entire Bag of Holding! It took an hour to get all that crap back in there! This is what they get for wanting to go through an alchemist's travelling lab.
In the end, they just made me peacebond the bag. Which was my suggestion in the first place. Ugh.
My take on it is that if the campaign wants to enforce a given cultural norm regarding equipment, wilderness oriented class features or the like, that it needs to communicate that cultural norm in the universal assumptions and then communicate appropriateness in the adventure description. Otherwise, it just becomes a matter of what degree of strangeness presses who's buttons and results in a lack of continuity. Without agreement, what one GM thinks is good gaming becomes disappointment, bad feelings and mutterings of short words that end in k.
I'm not GMing nor playing much these days, but until such a basic standard is met, my take as a GM is to assume the Star Wars Cantina theme plays from the start of any adventure to the end, albeit in the background at low volume. As a player, I generally just roll with the punches and assume that if GM is enforcing a dress down of some sort that he's using good judgement or the writer calls for it.
So you wont let androids come in, eh?
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Had some time to think about it. OffintheShower obviously had different mental images of what an eidolon could be (guess which is which). Needless to say, that through him for a loop and made Andrew feel it was squishy.
I genuinely was not phased by what I was suggesting at all because my mental image was different. But the thing is, neither of us were 'wrong per sae'. If I had sat down with Offintheshower with such a character I would probably be genuinely confused by his reaction and Andrew's for that matter. I just 'took it for granted' that my fellow players would see Eidolons as people more or less.
It matches what I've seen in play on a local level.
On the other hand I was a table where my stomach turned by what I saw as a blatantly evil act (mass murder of bystandards and then animating the corpses) and was shocked and annoyed that the GM didn't react.
Point is, we do need to understand where the other person is coming from when we are thrown for a loop. When presented with an Eidolon or an animal companion or a familar and we see something a 'little different' then what we are expecting, I think it's our job to consider it rather then simply react with an 'Eidolon can't be this' or 'the dog can't where a tux' or whatever.
We need to ask ourselves 'does that make sense in the context presented by the player' as well as the larger world.
Take Care,
Kerney
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Had some time to think about it. OffintheShower obviously had different mental images of what an eidolon could be (guess which is which).
-Off Topic
My question to you is what do you think it is? This conversation made me think that you think it can look like the first link, which I hope I am wrong.
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My question to you is what do you think it is? This conversation made me think that you think it can look like the first link, which I hope I am wrong.
Why couldn't it? There's evidence of same in at least one published source.
Near the central tank stands a well-dressed and well- rounded woman with raven hair. Towering over her, at seven feet tall, stands her idealized, amazonian reflection. Both women bear a curious glowing rune on their foreheads. The bookies clearly defer to the smaller woman, and everyone keeps their distance from her glamorous bodyguard.
Lura’s oversized doppelganger is actually her eidolon, Bellu. The hulking woman represents everything Lura is not: graceful, imposing, and gifted with a fiery temperament. While seeing a physically ideal reflection of themselves would inspire most mortals, Lura instead draws confidence from her absolute domination over such a creature.
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My question to you is what do you think it is? This conversation made me think that you think it can look like the first link, which I hope I am wrong.
Yes I do think that is one possible Eidolon(though I could see it on the edge of what is allowed) as is the second picture. As for what inspired me to think so, it's obviously Golorian cannon.
Near the central tank stands a well-dressed and wellrounded
woman with raven hair. Towering over her, at seven
feet tall, stands her idealized, amazonian reflection. Both
women bear a curious glowing rune on their foreheads. The
bookies clearly defer to the smaller woman, and everyone
keeps their distance from her glamorous bodyguard.
This seems to fluster and annoy you. This I genuinely don't get. It seems your argument comes down to 'obviously this is not how I imagine it so , it must be wrong.'
So please, and I say this without snark or onus. Please rethink your own assumptions. I have the APG and the only eidolon description in a PFS module that I know of backing me up. I honestly don't see anything you have. The first picture I showed even has the glowy mark thingie, unlike the second one.
Point is, you can obviously create a Eidolon whose image does not default to 'beast', rather to merely exotic or alien. And I am not taking liberties, bending the rules or anything of the sort. I am merely bending your assumptions.
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It is of an "idealized, amazonian reflection". To me, that implies alien perfection. This does not imply something that could easily fit into high society brunch.
In a magical world, "alien perfection" is inappropriate? If the creature is sentient and capable of speech, the fact that it looks like a slightly glowy anime character means it can't come in? Despite the fact that the Summoner himself might well be a goblin with seven ioun stones implanted in the middle of his forehead?
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But Patrick, the description is not of another human being with a rune on their head.
It is of an "idealized, amazonian reflection". To me, that implies alien perfection. This does not imply something that could easily fit into high society brunch.
I see your point, but the first image I showed could, 'simply give off a sense of alieness' or be green instead of fleshtone. In either case it could have a reasonable chance of getting into a high society brunch.
EDIT:Patrick: You are the Ninja.
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It is of an "idealized, amazonian reflection". To me, that implies alien perfection. This does not imply something that could easily fit into high society brunch.In a magical world, "alien perfection" is inappropriate? If the creature is sentient and capable of speech, the fact that it looks like a slightly glowy anime character means it can't come in? Despite the fact that the Summoner himself might well be a goblin with seven ioun stones implanted in the middle of his forehead?
I didn't say it was inappropriate. I said it was obviously alien.
There is a difference.
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I think we've gone away from the original point. Eidolons may be similar to animal companions, but in all but the extreme cases, they are very different. Eidolons are much closer to actual characters and probably need to be treated on a case-by-case basis. The only thing I adhere to is that no matter what abilities your eidolon has and no matter how you describe it, the RAW is always present. That being, "The eidolon's physical appearance is up to the summoner, but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature." Short of magical concealment effect, it will appear alien. That in and of itself may seriously impact its ability to "fit" into social situations regardless if it can talk, reason, or diplomasize. YMMV
The real issue here is with animal companions and mounts. While not fantastical creatures, they are not something that would normally be accepted at social engagements. A wizard might get away with a tiny owl on the shoulder or a rat in his pocket (familiars) because they are small and un-obtrusive, but a fully-armed and armored ulfen ranger might have difficulty getting in with a 5ft tall, 300+ pound wolf. You wouldn't allow the cavalier, even in shinning armor and aristocratic tabards/bannerretts into the dinner party with his horse, so why would you allow a halfling and his riding dog, even if both were spit and polished?
I just wonder how "fair" it is to nerf entire classes during the role-playing encounters, especially when often those turn into roll-playing encounters. Do we need to err on the side of GoodRightFun and just overlook the admittedly present-day view of what defines socially acceptable?
Its funny, I have this image of a social engagement where the attendees all have companions in some form that are outside by the entry, looking like a barnyard, peering in the windows and wimpering for their masters.
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It is of an "idealized, amazonian reflection". To me, that implies alien perfection. This does not imply something that could easily fit into high society brunch.In a magical world, "alien perfection" is inappropriate? If the creature is sentient and capable of speech, the fact that it looks like a slightly glowy anime character means it can't come in? Despite the fact that the Summoner himself might well be a goblin with seven ioun stones implanted in the middle of his forehead?I didn't say it was inappropriate. I said it was obviously alien.
There is a difference.
No more so than@
Elves
Gnomes
Teiflings
Aasimar
etc.
Exceptionally different. To those in Golarion (which includes all those fantasy races) an Eidolon looks fantastical and alien. That's what an Eidolon is.
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Bob - I have to agree with you and how you originally banned the mounts (boars in this case... evil ones) in the temple.
I have a Cavalier. I'm building him as a human with alot of mounted feats. I also understand that i will not get to use [the horse] at all in 60%+ scenarios. That does not mean i am ineffective. I would not even think to bring it into most buildings...
At the very least, circumstance malus (-2) if having the mount with you would be sociably questionable...
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Exceptionally different. To those in Golarion (which includes all those fantasy races) an Eidolon looks fantastical and alien. That's what an Eidolon is.It is of an "idealized, amazonian reflection". To me, that implies alien perfection. This does not imply something that could easily fit into high society brunch.In a magical world, "alien perfection" is inappropriate? If the creature is sentient and capable of speech, the fact that it looks like a slightly glowy anime character means it can't come in? Despite the fact that the Summoner himself might well be a goblin with seven ioun stones implanted in the middle of his forehead?I didn't say it was inappropriate. I said it was obviously alien.
There is a difference.
No more so than@
Elves
Gnomes
Teiflings
Aasimar
etc.
Agreed, an eidolon should look differenter then an assimar or tiefling. Thet doesn't mean it won't be invited to brunch either. Now, I think we should do what Bob said and get back to the Animal Companion debate.
Sorry about the derail.
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I don't see how Bellu is not Alien in description.
I think its another example of interpretation. Where one sees clear indication that the eidolon/s is/are alien, I can easily see where someone would not read that. The description is somewhat subtle and the author probably should have gone a bit further in the descriptive text. But to be fair, the glowing rune on the foreheads is clearly present and I would guess is probably in the area of a DC10 knowledge(arcana) check, doable even with no ranks.
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Maybe not the specifics of magic missile or a fiendish hawk, but they could probably identify the former is casting a spell. In the later, a DC10 knowledge(nature) check might reveal it is not entirely a "normal" or "natural" hawk.
I am not talking about identifying specific abilities of the eidolon, just that it is what it is. Since it is an outsider, perhaps a knowledge(planes) would be more appropriate, but either way, the matching glowing rune is fairly unique in its meaning. I expect summoners are as common as any other non-core class which I would describe as extremely common. Hence a DC 5 for a core class vs. a DC 10 for a non-core class. But, I admit that the knowledge/identification rules are not perfect so YMMV.
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Knowledge(planes) at dc 10, ok, it's an outsider. You are very certain it's not from around here. Magic glowy dude may be responsible, cause it probably isn't joe, he can barely hold his ale, let alone cast spells.
Additional details, pretty much nil for the average commoner.
Knowing 'This must be an eidowhatsit!' seems far fetched.
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Yes I do think that is one possible Eidolon(though I could see it on the edge of what is allowed) as is the second picture. As for what inspired me to think so, it's obviously Golorian cannon.
The problem with using that one, is it was written before the class was finalized and there were problem all around with it, including stats.
Here is the Authors input on it..
As for the eidolon resembling the summoner, Bellu is far from an exact copy of Lura; she's inhumanly tall, graceful, and fit and it should be readily obvious that she is not human; She's more like a caricature of Lura than a copy. If your GM is requiring any kind of skill check to tell the two apart, they're being a jerk.
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This Thread reminds me of this scene
Edit: Game Of Thrones Season 2 spoiler if you have not seen it.
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I've read through the whole thread. I've a strong feeling about the two following aspects
A) social etiquette does need to have an influence. Otherwise it isn't worthwhile to paint a nice and intriguing background.
B) handicapping someone occasionally is ok. It's like difficult terrain. But be careful not to nerf someone completely
There only is a problem when social event turns into fight without being
A) taking into account that you are without weapon, armour, animal companion
B) not giving time and a sensible opportunity to get ready / get the AC or eidolon
To don a Full Plate takes 4 minutes. Even a breastplate is a full minute to don hastily.
If you write an encounter that assumes you don't show up in full armour / with your pets left outside or in the stables - fine. Tune it down.
But if it assumes full strength from all party members then expect players to stop following etiquette if it kills them. they start to sneak in inappropriate items/animals/eidolons - if the only alternative is run or die.
Just saw a paladin die in tier 6-7 Blackros Matrimony. He didn't stand a chance Armour Class 10 without his full plate during the last encounter. But I'm not sure when he should have donned the armour? There didn't seem anything to be built in that said - social stops now - 5 min downtime - full fight starting afterwards.
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The problem with using that one, is it was written before the class was finalized and there were problem all around with it, including stats.
Most of the stat-related problems with encounter 4B stem from the fact that the adventure was written well before the Summoner class was finalized (though, if you check the Bestiary, many two-armed creatures are capable of two slam attacks per round, so it's not unfounded, and Bellu's damage, attack bonus, hit points, and AC are roughly balanced for her CR, even with the two attacks).
As for the eidolon resembling the summoner, Bellu is far from an exact copy of Lura; she's inhumanly tall, graceful, and fit and it should be readily obvious that she is not human; She's more like a caricature of Lura than a copy. If your GM is requiring any kind of skill check to tell the two apart, they're being a jerk.
The whole problem with your argument here is that she is primarily if not completely talking about the mechanical aspects of the eidolon rather then the image when the entire context is shown. It also doesn't change one bit the fact that this 'human like' eidolon is cannon. I have also stated that I agree with Andrew that--
It is of an "idealized, amazonian reflection". To me, that implies alien perfection.
Now arguablely, the picture I suggested, the weird facial markings and a suggestion of an unnatural air of calmness is too subtle in your judgement. But it is pretty easy to find other pictures that could be sufficantly fantastic but sufficently humaniod-like to be invited to dinner or be considered an 'alien' romantic interest. To say such things are 'insane' or just wrong simply don't stand up to any scrutiny.