Space elves and Drow

[Mahavira]

A simple question: can elves from Castrovel turn into drow? When elves returned to Golarion, they discovered that normal elves can turn into drow, but were they elves fresh from Castrovel, or were they born on Golarion? If drow went to Castrovel, could they cause sufficiently evil Castrovel elves to become drow, or is the cause not something easily taken from Golarion (the "magnetic field" or whatever)?

[Son of the Veterinarian]

I suspect it's up to you. My understanding of the situation is that becoming Drow was originally a consequence of the "evil emanations" from the caverns the Drow's ancestors found themselves in, but it then spread like an infection to the rest of Golarion's Elven population.

There are a lot of problems and unanswered questions with all of that, but the "Drow disease" has thus far been presented like the T-virus, it infects at the speed of plot.

So handle it however you want to. Certainly there is a story in the "infection" spreading to Castrovel, with Elves all over suddenly turning into Drow and the government going apes#$t trying to contain the situation.

[Pendagast]

drowitis:

from the way I read it. The Drow spontaneously combusted BEFORE the Elves left Golarion. There was also two members of the winter council than spontaneously combusted into Drow without having ever been IN the Darklands, however, not all evil elves turn into Drow. Some elves just stay elves, even though they are evil.... so who knows?

[TerraNova]

I think the "infection" description might be just right. The Golarion population is carrying the infection, it just doesn't break out too frequently (only on fringe cases). The original Castrovel population is (so far) clean, but if regular contact between the G and C population were established (e.g. through a second exodus), the infection might spread.

[Cthulhudrew]

The drow "plague" definitely seems to be a localized Golarion phenomenon for some reason, but that may only be because Earthfall brought about an extreme survival scenario in which certain groups of elves of Golarion made some drastic decisions they felt necessary in order to perpetuate the species that Castrovel elves (or elves elsewhere) were never put in the position to make.

IE, if you like, it might certainly be a possibility, but considering that drow were seemingly unknown until Earthfall, it's never yet happened.

[Thomas LeBlanc]

Cthulhudrew wrote:

The drow "plague" definitely seems to be a localized Golarion phenomenon for some reason, but that may only be because Earthfall brought about an extreme survival scenario in which certain groups of elves of Golarion made some drastic decisions they felt necessary in order to perpetuate the species that Castrovel elves (or elves elsewhere) were never put in the position to make.

IE, if you like, it might certainly be a possibility, but considering that drow were seemingly unknown until Earthfall, it's never yet happened.

I agree with this. Due to the various corrupting influences under Golarion's surface (evil imprisoned god for one), the transformation was made possible.

BTW: There are no elves in space. They create gates to travel between worlds. How they find new worlds is a mystery.

[Trinite]

Having the drow spread -- or attempt to spread -- back to Castrovel would be a very interesting adventure idea. Or maybe they discover that being on Castrovel can allow some drow to reverse the transformation. Could be cool!

[James Jacobs]

In Golarion (and by extension, Pathfinder game product canon), the first drow manifested not long after Earthfall when they went too deep underground and their own negative emotions/personality traits brushed against something down there that transformed them.

One thing to realize about elves is that they do a lesser version of this all the time. An elf that lives in a forest ends up looking and behaving similarly to the elves we see all the time in Golarion, but if that elf moves on to the desert, her nature and appearance will change, over the course of a few centuries, to match. Same with elves up in the snow, or down in the jungle. They essentially change ethnicities as the environment they live in changes. This takes a long time, and isn't likely to be something that ever affects a PC or an elf NPC in the span of a single campaign.

But it IS part of why the elves who went underground turned into drow—they were influenced by the raw chaos and evil of SOMETHING deep down in the Darklands.

And that can happen anywhere if the stars are right. Or it can happen differently. And certainly the drow know about Castrovel and Soveryan, and they may well have built their own versions of elf gates or other things in order to go there to wreak havoc.

[Set]

Ha, elves are mushrooms. They have no flavor of their own, but they pick up the flavor of what's around them!

[Oceanshieldwolf]

Set wrote:

Ha, elves are mushrooms. They have no flavor of their own, but they pick up the flavor of what's around them!

I think you mean Tofu.

OR

"Elves. Lacking flavor for millennia." (though I do like the desert elves in Elfquest and Dark Sun, (Kobold Press') Arbonesse elves and oldskool shadowfey. Still can't quite scrub my eyes clean or mind clear of Hugo Weaving as Elrond in the LotR movies.)

Space-svartalfar for the win!

[Pendagast]

James Jacobs wrote:

In Golarion (and by extension, Pathfinder game product canon), the first drow manifested not long after Earthfall when they went too deep underground and their own negative emotions/personality traits brushed against something down there that transformed them.

One thing to realize about elves is that they do a lesser version of this all the time. An elf that lives in a forest ends up looking and behaving similarly to the elves we see all the time in Golarion, but if that elf moves on to the desert, her nature and appearance will change, over the course of a few centuries, to match. Same with elves up in the snow, or down in the jungle. They essentially change ethnicities as the environment they live in changes. This takes a long time, and isn't likely to be something that ever affects a PC or an elf NPC in the span of a single campaign.

But it IS part of why the elves who went underground turned into drow—they were influenced by the raw chaos and evil of SOMETHING deep down in the Darklands.

And that can happen anywhere if the stars are right. Or it can happen differently. And certainly the drow know about Castrovel and Soveryan, and they may well have built their own versions of elf gates or other things in order to go there to wreak havoc.

can you enlighten us as to why members of the winter council turned into Drow in SD? Presence of Demons? Energies from a darklands artifact? Never washed his undies??

[Ambrosia Slaad]

I wonder if elves acclimated to Geb (and other high "necromantic background count" areas) would all spontaneously reanimate as undead upon death, ala The Walking Dead? :)

[Drejk]

Set wrote:

Ha, elves are mushrooms. They have no flavor of their own, but they pick up the flavor of what's around them!

But dark elves are fungi! The rest of elves are plants, though...

[Drejk]

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

I wonder if elves acclimated to Geb (and other high "necromantic background count" areas) would all spontaneously reanimate as undead upon death, ala The Walking Dead? :)

Aereneal elves?

[Jeff Erwin]

Drejk wrote:

Set wrote:

Ha, elves are mushrooms. They have no flavor of their own, but they pick up the flavor of what's around them!

But dark elves are fungi! The rest of elves are plants, though...

I was going to say "dark elves? fun guys!" But they are fungals at least as often.

[Drejk]

Spoiler:

Voralans and Aldrayami.

[Jeff Erwin]

Drejk wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Ah, Glorantha.

[James Jacobs]

Pendagast wrote:

can you enlighten us as to why members of the winter council turned into Drow in SD? Presence of Demons? Energies from a darklands artifact? Never washed his undies??

As detailed in that adventure, the spontaneous transformation of an elf into a drow is SUPER rare, but can happen if an elf is sufficiently chaotic evil AND worships a demon lord, and even then it's super super rare. It's happened twice in hundreds of books we've published—both times in the Second Darkness adventure path (once with an event that starts things rolling by creating the AP's big bad end gal, and once "on-screen" so the PCs can see it happen).

[Mikaze]

Second Darkness spoiler:

That guy on the Winter Council looked like such a trustworthy fellow too!

This has me really wondering how elves would look on Verces, Triaxus, Akiton, freakin' Aucturn, and along the lines of Ambrosia Slaad's thinking, Eox after several generations.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Somewhere, a lich or axiomite lord has elves in different terrariums, creating different magical ecosystems and threats to see how they adapt over generations.

Unrealistic hypothetical:

Bob the Lich: "Damnit, this last group just sits around all day eating unhealthy treats and pretending to play some sort of imagination-based game where their characters are sequestered in a large rectangular stone-like structure. They roll dice to see who has success in odd competitions called 'department meetings' and 'tee-pee-ess reports.' That one there rolled a 1 and is experiencing failure acquiring something called "handouts" from some beast known as a 'printer,' which is ever-hungry for a delicacy known as 'toner'."

Marvin the Inevitable: "They all sound quite mad."

Bob: "Clearly. Oh well." {sighs, flushes elves out airlock, fires up clone tanks for another batch}

Marvin: Do you need any goblin subjects? They breed faster than tribbles, and apparently my studies now prove, they will do it literally anywhere...

[Pendagast]

James Jacobs wrote:

Pendagast wrote:

can you enlighten us as to why members of the winter council turned into Drow in SD? Presence of Demons? Energies from a darklands artifact? Never washed his undies??

As detailed in that adventure, the spontaneous transformation of an elf into a drow is SUPER rare, but can happen if an elf is sufficiently chaotic evil AND worships a demon lord, and even then it's super super rare. It's happened twice in hundreds of books we've published—both times in the Second Darkness adventure path (once with an event that starts things rolling by creating the AP's big bad end gal, and once "on-screen" so the PCs can see it happen).

So otherwise... this is a long drawn out transformation as you said earlier.

[Mahavira]

James Jacobs wrote:

Pendagast wrote:

can you enlighten us as to why members of the winter council turned into Drow in SD? Presence of Demons? Energies from a darklands artifact? Never washed his undies??

As detailed in that adventure, the spontaneous transformation of an elf into a drow is SUPER rare, but can happen if an elf is sufficiently chaotic evil AND worships a demon lord, and even then it's super super rare. It's happened twice in hundreds of books we've published—both times in the Second Darkness adventure path (once with an event that starts things rolling by creating the AP's big bad end gal, and once "on-screen" so the PCs can see it happen).

Hm, hadn't realized the BBEG was a demon worshipper from the start. I'd always assumed she was a cleric of Callistria who didn't realize she had long since ceased to be CN, and converted to Abraxus after joining house Azinrae.

Presumably transformation didn't happen on Castrovel because of distance from the source of corruption, the surface of Golarion is close enough that it's possible but super rare, and once you're deep enough to be in the darklands proper, it's more likely (if a pregnant elf was held prisoner in Darklands for an extended period, would the baby be drow, I wonder...).

Back to the original thought, based on his eminence's contributions, it seems likely that Drow syndrome as such can't be readily transported to Castrovel, you'd have to find or create a similar source of corruption and even then the result would probably not be precisely drow but would rather have features relating to the source.

[James Jacobs]

Mahavira wrote:

Hm, hadn't realized the BBEG was a demon worshipper from the start. I'd always assumed she was a cleric of Callistria who didn't realize she had long since ceased to be CN, and converted to Abraxus after joining house Azinrae.

Yup; she became a cleric of Abraxas well before the drow thing kicked in.

[Trinite]

Mahavira wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Pendagast wrote:

can you enlighten us as to why members of the winter council turned into Drow in SD? Presence of Demons? Energies from a darklands artifact? Never washed his undies??

As detailed in that adventure, the spontaneous transformation of an elf into a drow is SUPER rare, but can happen if an elf is sufficiently chaotic evil AND worships a demon lord, and even then it's super super rare. It's happened twice in hundreds of books we've published—both times in the Second Darkness adventure path (once with an event that starts things rolling by creating the AP's big bad end gal, and once "on-screen" so the PCs can see it happen).

Hm, hadn't realized the BBEG was a demon worshipper from the start. I'd always assumed she was a cleric of Callistria who didn't realize she had long since ceased to be CN, and converted to Abraxus after joining house Azinrae.

Presumably transformation didn't happen on Castrovel because of distance from the source of corruption, the surface of Golarion is close enough that it's possible but super rare, and once you're deep enough to be in the darklands proper, it's more likely (if a pregnant elf was held prisoner in Darklands for an extended period, would the baby be drow, I wonder...).

Back to the original thought, based on his eminence's contributions, it seems likely that Drow syndrome as such can't be readily transported to Castrovel, you'd have to find or create a similar source of corruption and even then the result would probably not be precisely drow but would rather have features relating to the source.

Heh, not *readily* transported, but I could imagine some enterprising demon lord thinking that there was a nice big untapped pool of potential worshippers out there, and hatching a plan...

[Tacticslion]

This... is really interesting, now.

[Black Arrow]

I am running a HIGHLY modified version of SD, we're only playing to level 12 and the first half follows SD fairly closely but then the second half gets a bit crazy, Allevrah Azinrae escapes with a drow army to Castroval after failing to bring an astroid to Golarion and is going to make her final attempt on the foreign planet. The portal to Castroval is closed behind her and the army (maybe she has stolen the Sovyrian Stone?) so I decided to incorporate Numeria and its tech and my group will be sent there to collect pieces of and craft a spaceship to travel to C, probably a crash landing into the jungles of C will happen and they will make their way to Sovyrian to face Allevrah and her army. I'm thinking something like, Allevrah has brought a darkness to the city of El and the group will stop her before she pulls an asteroid to the planet and the final battle will happen at the foot of the Arch of Refuge and once they win they'll open the gate back up in order to return home.

SO, I know this is a pretty dead thread but I was wondering if anyone else finds this interesting and would have some ideas for my game, especially relating to the spreading of Drow on Castroval (i.e. how would Allevrah bring the darkness or "disease" with her/which god/power would make that possible, Rovagug? Lamashtu? Abraxus?). Also, should I ditch the asteroid destruction idea for C and just do to a form of darkness or drow "disease? I could also use ideas for time spent on C or even in Numeria (my idea is that they team up with Lady Altouna to help her return home). We are about to head from Riddleport to Crying Leaf so ANY feedback would be helpful...

ps. so far this is really fun mostly because one of my PCs decided to be an elf bard exiled from C for sneaking and reading some forbidden lore, which I haven't figured out what that lore should be, because I want it to help/relate to the story. But he's been living on G for the past 100 yrs and has NO CLUE we are going to end up on C and is gonna poo himself when he finds out, I hope.

[LazarX]

Son of the Veterinarian wrote:

I suspect it's up to you. My understanding of the situation is that becoming Drow was originally a consequence of the "evil emanations" from the caverns the Drow's ancestors found themselves in, but it then spread like an infection to the rest of Golarion's Elven population.

No it didn't really. The only elves who actually transformed were those who spent a good deal of time fighting the Drow in the Underdark and had become that evil themselves.

Conversely, many surface elves are pretty extremely evil, and their skin hasn't darkened a shade.

[Goth Guru]

There was a pulp dungeon where elves living underground had gone albino. Drow could live in a jungle, hunt at night, and be neutral. There could be urban drow who are all over the map alignment wise. Basically, gods can transform creatures, if they hold sway over them. If there is a deity of good Drow, they won't need to change new converts. A medusa desperately trying to change could be changed into a drow this way.

A star that had turned into solid diamond could be mined by space drow. They can see in the dark and eat fungus so it's a better fit.

[Yakman]

Black Arrow wrote:

I am running a HIGHLY modified version of SD, we're only playing to level 12 and the first half follows SD fairly closely but then the second half gets a bit crazy, Allevrah Azinrae escapes with a drow army to Castroval after failing to bring an astroid to Golarion and is going to make her final attempt on the foreign planet. The portal to Castroval is closed behind her and the army (maybe she has stolen the Sovyrian Stone?) so I decided to incorporate Numeria and its tech and my group will be sent there to collect pieces of and craft a spaceship to travel to C, probably a crash landing into the jungles of C will happen and they will make their way to Sovyrian to face Allevrah and her army. I'm thinking something like, Allevrah has brought a darkness to the city of El and the group will stop her before she pulls an asteroid to the planet and the final battle will happen at the foot of the Arch of Refuge and once they win they'll open the gate back up in order to return home.

SO, I know this is a pretty dead thread but I was wondering if anyone else finds this interesting and would have some ideas for my game, especially relating to the spreading of Drow on Castroval (i.e. how would Allevrah bring the darkness or "disease" with her/which god/power would make that possible, Rovagug? Lamashtu? Abraxus?). Also, should I ditch the asteroid destruction idea for C and just do to a form of darkness or drow "disease? I could also use ideas for time spent on C or even in Numeria (my idea is that they team up with Lady Altouna to help her return home). We are about to head from Riddleport to Crying Leaf so ANY feedback would be helpful...

ps. so far this is really fun mostly because one of my PCs decided to be an elf bard exiled from C for sneaking and reading some forbidden lore, which I haven't figured out what that lore should be, because I want it to help/relate to the story. But he's been living on G for the past 100 yrs and has NO CLUE we are going to end up on C and is gonna poo himself when he finds out, I...

i thik it's a pretty cool idea.

as far as spreadig drow o castrovel, you probably wat it happeig quickly, takig over thoughts ad actios, to ake the crisis iediate ad terrible. ot sure you eve eed to explai how it's workig, just that it is ad it is up to the heroes to save the day.

[Astral Wanderer]

Set wrote:

Ha, elves are mushrooms. They have no flavor of their own, but they pick up the flavor of what's around them!

Same as Humans.

The difference is that they just don't live long enough (or don't maintain certain conditions long enough) for you to see them change color, but everyone is the product of the environment they live in.
Keep a vegetarian-only diet for a long time, for example, and you will change hue.