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As for 'sexism against men' mentioned in another post upthread, it's not possible in our society. Gender discrimination and gender prejudice against men exists, but sexism is that plus the institutional support of society to that prejudice and discrimination. Just as you can't have racism against white people except in countries where non-whites hold all the power, and even then there's the fact that most whites in China or Japan or India will be citizens of powerful white-dominated countries such as the U.S., so they're likely to be treated with some degree of deference by the authorities.
Really?
So when HR departments pressure men to come back to works 3 days after their child is born that is not sexist? When the police give little to no credence to male victims of domestic abuse, that is not sexist?
The definitions that you're using are from self-serving politcal hacks. Don't buy into the con!
Andy
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Have you considered the possibility that your usual behavior is sexist and boorish and loutish and your male friends just ignore it or find it funny?
Yes. Which was the entire point.
Posters asking to be treated just like one of the guys either don't know what they're asking for or don't care about the catch 22. You can complain that males are boorish and loutish OR you can complain that they're treating you differently. You can't complain about both.
As for 'sexism against men' mentioned in another post upthread, it's not possible in our society. Gender discrimination and gender prejudice against men exists, but sexism is that plus the institutional support of society to that prejudice and discrimination.
Everything the other potion mentioned is more institutionalized than the discrimination against women.
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The experiences I shared about the male and female players being asked to tone it down happened withing the last three years. Both were young college students.
The experience about the one player assuming I was going to be a bigot about their life choices happened within the last year and a half.
A few have commented that any GM who is experienced and played often enough wouldn't pull some of the crap talked about in this discussion. Sorry to say, but there are very experienced and long time playing GMs who have done those things. It happens in conventions and in home games. We also are not just talking about teenagers. 30 year old gamers can be just as bad or worse, because they believe that their age automatically makes them mature enough that such jokes are appropriate. Just because someone is an adult, it doesn't mean they won't act childish.
Now, I honestly can't say that I have seen a great deal of sexism in my personal gaming experience outside of the revealing fantasy art and the experiences I have already shared. All of the female players I currently game with are all strong, independent women who I hope would stick up for themselves if someone was sexually harassing them. My wife is in two gaming groups, and I know she would tell me instantly if it was happening to her. (In that case, someone would end up having to deal with me and I am pretty scary when I am angry.)
Like Dudemeister said so well. Be excellent to each other. Advise I plan on making a table rule.
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Posters asking to be treated just like one of the guys either don't know what they're asking for or don't care about the catch 22. You can complain that males are boorish and loutish OR you can complain that they're treating you differently. You can't complain about both.
Wait, doesn't that presuppose that all males behave boorishly and loutishly? I don't put up with that in my games, my personal life, my professional life, or my public life, personally.
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Remember, you're talking about a demographic where a large proportion of them are totally fine with using the word "gay" to mean "lame."
My first, fond response was," That's awfully able-ist of you, Sean."
--+--
True story: when I was in college, in the early '80s, the (1st Edition Advanced) D&D group I played in was largish, and we split up to investigate some political intrigue. One team of four PCs visited a bar to find background information on the guy they suspected was behind everything, and they got Too Close To The Truth, and somebody somewhere slipped knock-out drugs into their drinks. The PCs started passing out, with little to look forward to when they awoke beyond life as a galley slave.
Opinions?
One of the players was a woman on the fencing team (about half the players were women.) She decided this was an abuse / white slavery situation, and so she drew the broken-off-foil she had sharpened into a dirk, and tried to stab the DM in the neck.
Take-away: if you introduce potentially delicate subject matter in your game, pay attention to how each player reacts. If you are in the same situation ad BNW, and have a hard time interpetting people's reactions, then play things safe and stick to orcs, rooms, and pie.
Aside, why would complimenting someone on their appearance be considered harassment or offensive?
Honestly, it depends on how you do it. A lot of men make offensive or harassing comments, and when they are called on it, they hide behind "I was just giving you a compliment! What's your problem?"
Years ago, I worked as belly dancer at renaissance fairs. Even when you're in a position where your appearance is an integral part of the act, there is still a clear difference between compliment and harassment. Two particular incidents (on the same day, even) made this point crystal clear:
Incident 1: As I walked past one man (who was taking a young boy to the bathroom), he just stopped and whispered "Wow." As I kept walking, he went on about his business.
Incident 2: When I walked past a group of 4-5 young men (or oldish teenagers, hard to tell), one of them said, quite loudly, "Now there's a woman who looks like she needs to get laid!" As I continued walking, I rolled my eyes, and he said (even louder), "Well, I guess not!"
It's pretty clear which one was a compliment and which one was harassment, right?
The first man made no attempt to interrupt me or get a reaction from me; I don't even know if he realized I'd heard him. His comment contained no expectations and no judgment about my character. He seemed sincerely impressed, and I was honestly flattered. Had he actually tried to get my attention, I would have stopped and talked to him.
The young man, on the other hand, was showing off for his group of friends. His point was to get a reaction from me, to force me to acknowledge him so he could feel like a big man. It didn't matter how or if I reacted. It didn't even matter what he actually said (even though it was blatantly crass and offensive): it was clear from his attitude and the reaction that I was merely a convenient prop in his performance art piece. The entire incident had very little to do with me or how I was dressed.
That's a pretty extreme example, but it's a good illustration of the does and don'ts of giving compliments.
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Posters asking to be treated just like one of the guys either don't know what they're asking for or don't care about the catch 22. You can complain that males are boorish and loutish OR you can complain that they're treating you differently. You can't complain about both.Wait, doesn't that presuppose that all males behave boorishly and loutishly? I don't put up with that in my games, my personal life, my professional life, or my public life, personally.
I think it's primarily cultural. Little boys are treated differently than little girls when they are rude, obnoxious, or rough. It's cute or horseplay when it would be unacceptable for a girl. (Speaking from parenting/teaching experience). The few women I know or knew who were comfortable with being crude and loutish were socialized that way, for whatever reason (lots of older brothers, etc). I never was. But it's true, as a generalization, that girls are punished or not praised for acting in ways that are considered "boys being boys" for male children and this affects Western/American culture to its bones.
Inference being: we assume her characters are weak, because?In my gaming group, we've had a female in it since it's inception. And let me tell you, her characters are not to be trifled with. :p
Inference being: She developed a strong character that happened to be female. Nothing more. Nothing less. There is such thing as reading between the lines a little too much, you know.
It's not just that. It's, Don't make assumptions about what her character would or must do.I was once starting a new game, and the GM had one PC sitting in a tavern when the prime antagonist started harassing the barmaid so the PC stepped up to defend her. After the jerk with the roving hands had been sent packing, the GM turned to me and said, "Okay, you can go ahead and join in, Joana. The barmaid is your PC."
"Excuse me? No, it's not. She's not a barmaid."
"Well, it's been a while since her last adventure. She has to do something to pay for her room and board."
"If that were my PC, she would have drawn her own weapon and defended herself instead of letting some loser paw her."
"Well, no, she really needs this job. It's better to put up with sexual harassment than to be on the streets."
"So you're saying my PC's only options are working in a bar or prostitution? She's a freaking fifth-level fighter! You don't think the city guard would be happy to have her?"
I was so mad, he eventually retconned the barmaid to being an NPC and let me introduce my character another way, but he never got why I was so offended by it.
That's astonishing. :o
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As for 'sexism against men' mentioned in another post upthread, it's not possible in our society. Gender discrimination and gender prejudice against men exists, but sexism is that plus the institutional support of society to that prejudice and discrimination. Just as you can't have racism against white people except in countries where non-whites hold all the power, and even then there's the fact that most whites in China or Japan or India will be citizens of powerful white-dominated countries such as the U.S., so they're likely to be treated with some degree of deference by the authorities.Really?
So when HR departments pressure men to come back to works 3 days after their child is born that is not sexist? When the police give little to no credence to male victims of domestic abuse, that is not sexist?
The definitions that you're using are from self-serving politcal hacks. Don't buy into the con!
Andy
That's "gender discrimination", and it's illegal and wrong. "Sexism" is more about the social structures that enforce gender roles and hetero-normative behavior, that permit discrimination based on gender.
Gender discrimination against men happens the most when men end up in traditionally "women's roles". The underlying assumption of "gay" being a negative thing is because to be "gay" is to be effeminate, to act like a woman. The worst thing you can call a young boy is "a girl". ("You throw like a girl." "Man up." "Don't be a pussy." etc.) Being "manly" is more and more defined as "not doing anything that women do", avoiding the girl cooties, as it were.
That's sexism. It does hurt men, too, but much less often that it hurts women. Eliminating sexism should, in theory, eliminate all gender discrimination.
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Remember, you're talking about a demographic where a large proportion of them are totally fine with using the word "gay" to mean "lame."My first, fond response was," That's awfully able-ist of you, Sean."
--+--
True story: when I was in college, in the early '80s, the (1st Edition Advanced) D&D group I played in was largish, and we split up to investigate some political intrigue. One team of four PCs visited a bar to find background information on the guy they suspected was behind everything, and they got Too Close To The Truth, and somebody somewhere slipped knock-out drugs into their drinks. The PCs started passing out, with little to look forward to when they awoke beyond life as a galley slave.
Opinions?
** spoiler omitted **
Take-away: if you introduce potentially delicate subject matter in your game, pay attention to how each player reacts. If you are in the same situation ad BNW, and have a hard time interpetting people's reactions, then play things safe and stick to orcs, rooms, and pie.
I have to say that reacting with violence is probably once of the worse things that can be done. While I would agree that the situation the PCs found themselves in sucked, it shouldn't have merited someone assaulting the GM. I am sure there is more to this story than what you presented, but it still wouldn't make either party "right."
It also brings up real weapons at the game table issue, but we don't want to derail the thread.
To answer your question about opinions on the situation, I think the GM should have provided more outs. Any time the GM needs to present a potentially adventure ending situation, they need to have at least three outs for the party. In this case, one perception like check to notice the drinks being poisoned, one sense motive like check to see that something it up with the person giving them the drinks, and of course one save to resist the effects of the poison. This is to ensure that at least one or two of the PCs are not passed out and can at least do something to warn or save the other PCs. If everyone fails the checks and saves, point out how many chances you gave the group, offer to find a way to make it right (maybe the other group will find out they are in trouble and have to go rescue them,) and if a player is getting hot headed over all that you can ask them to step outside to cool off before talking about calmly and openly.
Now, if the GM was like, "Sorry, you got too close, they handed you drinks, you drank them, and you passed out. Your current characters are never seen again, as they are either made into galley slaves, or pretty little pets for some foreign ally of the baddie." Thus offering no rolls, and no chance of escaping the fate, I would probably be tempted to stab him as well. Mostly because doing so suggests the female PCs have a worse fate than the male ones, but also because I given no chance to contribute to that part of the game and story.
Sure, Jeff. But on the other hand I was raised by and among supposed "manly" men. Thankfully, I grew out of it.
And to address something else that's come up in this thread, my fondness for Monty Python quotes has never conflicted with my being a proud feminist that I'm aware of.
A feminist, by the way, is just someone who works toward being a basically decent human being. That's pretty much it.
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There are no universal, common characteristics about "women" any more than there are about "men". You didn't have to "learn how to interact with men"--you learned how to interact with different individuals or groups of individuals who happened to be males.
No there aren't. But just as with the bench press example below, there is an ENORMOUSLY correlative trend. If I've known an individual woman to long enough to know that she's perfectly fine with the joke about sister Mary Margret and the tractor trailer then I'll tell her. If I don't know her that well i won't.
The trends about being offended are kind of self enforcing. As a guy you're not expected to be offended, so on the rare occasion you do get offended you keep your mouth shut and life moves on.
It shouldn't matter what the gender or age or racial composition of the group is.
I'm sure there are 13 year olds who could handle the para-countess being role played to the hilt, but I'm not going to risk jail time if i guess wrong.
Where we run into problems is applying our experience with a single person or group to all people who share some characteristic with that group? If this is a group of men, would you say "men don't like Monty Python"? If not, why would you say "women don't like Monty Python?"
Because the addition of a new group of 5 isn't large enough to shift previously gathered data.
Instead of learning how to interact with some nebulous, alien "other", try to interact with the 5 or 6 people you're sitting with right now.
Because that goes very badly when I guess wrong.
I don't necessarily know you that well, and the nebulous part definitely figures into that. What women are thinking isn't nearly as apparent to me as women say it should be.
Unless 90 something percent of the guys i've met are lying to me, most Men at least down things down when there's a lady present. I don't think there's a legitimate complaint to be had against that.
Paizo included - from inbreeding ogres, to anti-halfling racism, to vengeful sex goddesses, Golarion, as published, has plenty of examples of adult materials and themes. And this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Each game table can edit and tweak as necessary to match the table's sensibilities.
The last line is pretty key. For example, my wife has told me in no uncertain terms that any game she is in that has a child killed in-game will result in her walking away from the table. (This came up when I mentioned that I had planned a goblin encounter where such a thing happened, but wisely chose to nix it.)
In terms of bad and sexist things happening to PCs, I usually take the prerogative that it should be limited to backstory if it is included at all. If a player wants to have their PC be a victim of sexual assault for whatever reason, that's one thing. Having it portrayed in game, whether the PC is male or female, is something I hope never to do. (I did have one PC once who tried to rape an NPC. It's the only time I've killed a character outright via GM fiat and ended the game. Others might have handled it more gracefully than that.)
For those saying they hope the horror stories are relics of an earlier, less enlightened time, I'm not sure if you're talking about my horror stories or the other women's here, but if it's mine, to be clear: I've been in the game industry for five years. All the stuff I talked about happened in the last five years. Which is part of the reason I did the interview.
That's quite a shame.
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I think it's primarily cultural. Little boys are treated differently than little girls when they are rude, obnoxious, or rough. It's cute or horseplay when it would be unacceptable for a girl. (Speaking from parenting/teaching experience). The few women I know or knew who were comfortable with being crude and loutish were socialized that way, for whatever reason (lots of older brothers, etc). I never was. But it's true, as a generalization, that girls are punished or not praised for acting in ways that are considered "boys being boys" for male children and this affects Western/American culture to its bones.
I have to wonder to what extent class has something to do with this as well.
Growing up among the New England proletariat, my female cousins were quite rude, obnoxious and rough. Same was true among my South Boston and East Boston friends. And where I work now, in a Teamster shop...well, I get the idea that most of my female co-workers would make a good portion of you guys blush. Quite a few crude and loutish ladies...
Posters asking to be treated just like one of the guys either don't know what they're asking for or don't care about the catch 22. You can complain that males are boorish and loutish OR you can complain that they're treating you differently. You can't complain about both.Wait, doesn't that presuppose that all males behave boorishly and loutishly? I don't put up with that in my games, my personal life, my professional life, or my public life, personally.
No, it does not presuppose that all males behave boorishly and loutishly. It simply ... i suppose you would say presumes, that men in general behave boorishly and loutishly.
Saying a group does not in any way, shape, or form imply an "all" in front of it. It just implies a trend within that group. "Men are stronger than women" just reads that a statistically significant portion of the male population are significantly stronger than a statistically significant segment of the female population" ... but that gets really boring to specify every time.
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Really?
So when HR departments pressure men to come back to works 3 days after their child is born that is not sexist? When the police give little to no credence to male victims of domestic abuse, that is not sexist?
I don't see anyone here saying that either of those examples is NOT sexist. Please stay on topic and don't create straw man arguments to attack.
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Posters asking to be treated just like one of the guys either don't know what they're asking for or don't care about the catch 22. You can complain that males are boorish and loutish OR you can complain that they're treating you differently. You can't complain about both.
It's not "don't treat me like one of the guys," it's "treat me with respect." If your default behavior is boorish and disrespectful (even when talking to males, and there are plenty of things you can say at work that are inappropriate even if the audience is a male), the problem is with your behavior, not that women can't handle how you talk to them.
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Did you know "boorish" comes from the Dutch word for "peasant"?
See my comments about class above, you snobs.
I mean what kind of jackass would even do this? It just seems to me that so much of the stuff described in this thread goes beyond simple ignorance of privilege and into the realm of full-blown deliberate misogyny.I think some people throw creepy stuff into their campaigns to emphasize that they're playing a game for adults and "this ain't your mamma's D&D!!1!".
Paizo included - from inbreeding ogres, to anti-halfling racism, to vengeful sex goddesses, Golarion, as published, has plenty of examples of adult materials and themes. And this isn't necessarily a bad thing...
Yeah, but what got Xexyz's hackles up was Quantum Steve's comment...
Don't mind-control her character as a vehicle to introduce sex into the game.
...implying that someone actually did this. And I feel pretty safe in saying that Xexyz's ire was partly provoked by Joana's story.
I was once starting a new game, and the GM had one PC sitting in a tavern when the prime antagonist started harassing the barmaid so the PC stepped up to defend her. After the jerk with the roving hands had been sent packing, the GM turned to me and said, "Okay, you can go ahead and join in, Joana. The barmaid is your PC."
"Excuse me? No, it's not. She's not a barmaid."
"Well, it's been a while since her last adventure. She has to do something to pay for her room and board."
"If that were my PC, she would have drawn her own weapon and defended herself instead of letting some loser paw her."
"Well, no, she really needs this job. It's better to put up with sexual harassment than to be on the streets."
"So you're saying my PC's only options are working in a bar or prostitution? She's a freaking fifth-level fighter! You don't think the city guard would be happy to have her?"
I was so mad, he eventually retconned the barmaid to being an NPC and let me introduce my character another way, but he never got why I was so offended by it.
There's a world of difference between that sort of behavior and just writing about inbreeding ogres, anti-halfling racism, and vengeful sex goddesses in your books.
I don't have a whole lot of Paizo books (compared to some people on these boards) but I feel quite safe in saying that Paizo would never publish material encouraging DMs to mind-control PCs to force them into sexual situations, nor to prohibit a PC from defending herself from unwanted advances!
(I personally would prefer that Paizo tone it down, but that doesn't stop me from buying Paizo books. But the GMs described in Quantum Steve's and Joana's stories are an entirely different matter!)
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Sure, Jeff. But on the other hand I was raised by and among supposed "manly" men. Thankfully, I grew out of it.
And to address something else that's come up in this thread, my fondness for Monty Python quotes has never conflicted with my being a proud feminist that I'm aware of.
A feminist, by the way, is just someone who works toward being a basically decent human being. That's pretty much it.
then the name should be changed to something more inclusive.
"Sexism" is more about the social structures that enforce gender roles and hetero-normative behavior, that permit discrimination based on gender.
Gender discrimination against men happens the most when men end up in traditionally "women's roles". The underlying assumption of "gay" being a negative thing is because to be "gay" is to be effeminate, to act like a woman. The worst thing you can call a young boy is "a girl". ("You throw like a girl." "Man up." "Don't be a pussy." etc.) Being "manly" is more and more defined as "not doing anything that women do", avoiding the girl cooties, as it were.
That's sexism. It does hurt men, too, but much less often that it hurts women. Eliminating sexism should, in theory, eliminate all gender discrimination.
My stepson gets this all the time from his father's side. All the time. For everything from his hair to his sensitive soul to the games he plays. (He's got three sisters, for crying out loud; of course he's going to identify with the female characters more than the male ones.) :-|
Trying to un-teach those lessons has been a constant struggle.
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Funny story: So, as I said, my co-workers, male and female, have a tendency to be rude and crude. We also tend to talk like, well, truckers.
Anyway, one of our 30-somethingish douchebag bosses was giving us a speech about our constant swearing and said, "You know, you guys should watch your mouths; there's a lot of old ladies around."
To which Mary, a 50-ish butch lesbian who leaves my workplace to go to her other job cleaning the Boston Gardens (or TD Bank Stadium or whatever they call it these days) piped up:
"You know, a lot of you guys do have pottymouths but I don't think I've ever been as f~*#ing offended as I am at being referred to as an old lady!"
Hee hee!
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I am male, and I find accounts of sexist workplaces both troubling and ... alien. I've never really seen that at any of places I've worked after graduating, because I'm a librarian. My profession is about 90% female -- 98% in public libraries, more like 85-90 in university libraries.
I have definitely noticed that men more often wind up as department heads and library directors, and that's troubling; but I've never once run across the outright in-your-face sexism described in the Save vs Sexism article. It may happen someplace, but if so, I haven't observed it. I hope that if I ever do come across it I'll have the nerve to speak up and call them on it.
Librarianship is the most gender unbalanced of all professions (I'm one). Though having been declined a position as a children's librarian myself because "parents would be more comfortable with a woman" was disconcerting but I think familiar to women in the opposite situation. Of course, in children's librarianship, there are even less men than 2%.
I have to wonder to what extent class has something to do with this as well.Growing up among the New England proletariat, my female cousins were quite rude, obnoxious and rough. Same was true among my South Boston and East Boston friends. And where I work now, in a Teamster shop...well, I get the idea that most of my female co-workers would make a good portion of you guys blush. Quite a few crude and loutish ladies...
Too simplistic. Its about social intelligence.
I've worked and trained in some of the rougher parts of Sheffield and Sarf London with some fairly *interesting* characters, in the gym or on the booze and they're rowdy as you like, but the vast majority of them you could take to, say, meet your Gran and they'd be nice as pie and wouldn't put a word out of place (a lot of the time because "My Mam would kill me!" etc.).
Its about awareness of the context of your surroundings and your company and modifying your behaviour to fit.
It would be too simplistic if I had said that it was all because of class. But I didn't, so it's not.
At one point I was considering going back to school to be a librarian.
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@Sean-Man, I hope that was just a throwback to the old AOL days.
I was giving examples of sexism against men that are prevalent today to a poster who stated there were none. So, in essence, yes somebody did say they weren't. They might be poor examples that don't convince anybody or not.
But I've got nothing against straw men. Or straw women for that matter.
Off topic? Yep. I'll stop here.
I'll reiterate what I said before.
Being aware of things is part of the solution. Having the courage to stand up for what is right is something we should expect from ourselves whether we're talking workplace sexism, schoolyard bullying, or general rudeness at the game table. That is the other part.
Andy
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Anicdotal I suppose..... I have been the token man in several customer service teams and all three times the same thing happened.
The senior team member will talk to me as if I am stupid, while taking me through my training... I was told once " the last man we had was useless I hope you are not as bad".
It took about 2-3 months before any of the team would sit with me at lunch. I made very good friends with the staff of the bookshops down the road.
When I was finally accepted as part of the team then it was mostly ok... Although once I was told I was an honorary woman other times I would get up and wander back down to the bookshops... Especial when they were making small dick jokes about one of co-workers ex husbands, or going into vast detail about female medical problems ( a subject I am sensitive to as all of the female members of my family having required surgery for some debiliting issues... I did not think my place to discuss other peop
Es medical history).
I found those roles I was in very enjoyable but very lonely and the one time when we did get another male team member we were referred to as the boys and I was ostracized at lunch time because I should be talking about football (Rugby) with my "mate".
I am still in contact with some of the women that I worked with they were wonderful peopleand it was they who encouraged me to shoot higher. Yet a lot of their behavior was sexist and invisible to them.
I was brought up to be respectful of all people my mother was a Feminist of the Germaine Greer school and my dad a bit of a Rugby playing lefty. When I asked my mother why she got married as it was an institution for maintaining patriarchal domination, she said my dad had sexy legs and a nice arse.... That and she re wrote the vows.
It's not "don't treat me like one of the guys," it's "treat me with respect."
Its both. I'm not objecting to one or the other. I'm saying that respect usually does require a change in behavior.
If your default behavior is boorish and disrespectful (even when talking to males, and there are plenty of things you can say at work that are inappropriate even if the audience is a male)
Sure, but you don't think that the line moves even just a little between an all male and a mixed group?
the problem is with your behavior, not that women can't handle how you talk to them.
The fact is that in our society you do not talk to a woman the same way that you talk to a man. Distance, eye contact, subject matter, tone, body language, physical gestures are ALL different for talking to women than to men.
To answer your original question (which I didn't previously) I don't believe its to do with class at all - I've encountered blundering social halfwits and perceptive kind-hearted souls from all social backgrounds, and I couldn't spot a correlation between the two axis. The register of speech may change, but that's absolutely as far as I'd venture.
I've never been to Boston, mind... :-)
Well, it is true that we New Englanders have a reputation for rudeness amongst our fellow Yanks. Given the stereotype of the Ugly American, I can only imagine how we would appear to ye olde Englanders.
But, still, I have never noticed a correlation between the blundering social halfwits/perceptive kind-hearted soul and crudity/sophistication axes, so...yeah, I don't know.
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It's not "don't treat me like one of the guys," it's "treat me with respect."
Its both. I'm not objecting to one or the other. I'm saying that respect usually does require a change in behavior.
If your default behavior is boorish and disrespectful (even when talking to males, and there are plenty of things you can say at work that are inappropriate even if the audience is a male)Sure, but you don't think that the line moves even just a little between an all male and a mixed group?
the problem is with your behavior, not that women can't handle how you talk to them.The fact is that in our society you do not talk to a woman the same way that you talk to a man. Distance, eye contact, subject matter, tone, body language, physical gestures are ALL different for talking to women than to men.
I don't know you very well, BNW, but maybe you're overthinking this shiznit? Or maybe you need to hang out with some less snooty women? I don't change any of those things when I am talking to women and they seem to like me fine. Unless I'm trying to get them in bed...but I don't think that's where you're going with this.
BigNorseWolf: I want you to know that I'm not trying to pick on you or "call you out" or anything. You just happen to have some really good examples of common concerns.
But just as with the bench press example below, there is an ENORMOUSLY correlative trend. If I've known an individual woman to long enough to know that she's perfectly fine with the joke about sister Mary Margret and the tractor trailer then I'll tell her. If I don't know her that well i won't.
The trends about being offended are kind of self enforcing. As a guy you're not expected to be offended, so on the rare occasion you do get offended you keep your mouth shut and life moves on.
So if you just meet a guy, you're likely to tell that joke? Under any circumstance? Even at a job interview, during a formal fundraising dinner, or in a group of ministers?
I think when we're among people we know or who are more like ourselves, we subconsciously add context and group them at a more granular level. "Men" become "the guys at work" vs. "my bowling team" vs. "guys at church", and we adjust our behavior to fit the group.
If I don't know a lot of men, I might still lump them all in one group, just "men" without any more context. But trying to determine the "correct" way to behave in any group that large is going to be frustrating and confusing.
And I understand the concept of "not expected to be offended"--that is part of the socialized sexism we're talking about. In a perfect world, you would always feel able to speak up for yourself when something offends you, male or female. And you have every right to expect the offender to apologize and stop doing that.
Instead of learning how to interact with some nebulous, alien "other", try to interact with the 5 or 6 people you're sitting with right now.Because that goes very badly when I guess wrong.
I don't necessarily know you that well, and the nebulous part definitely figures into that. What women are thinking isn't nearly as apparent to me as women say it should be.
That's a shame, and it's not fair to expect anyone to be a mind reader. If I don't tell you something is wrong or something offends me, I have no right to get upset if you keep doing it. I have a lot of empathy for people who have trouble picking up on more subtle behavioral cues. It's possible to learn to spot "tells" and get better with practice, but it really sucks that we can't just be honest with each other.
My mother's generation was trained to smile and agree with their husbands at all time, to never directly contradict or challenge him. All this did was create an entire generation of passive aggressive women ("If you don't know what's wrong, I'm not going to tell you!") who then turned around and taught their children the same behavior. And so on. I think we might finally be getting over this psychological disaster, but there are a whole lot of unexploded mines still buried out there.
Unless 90 something percent of the guys i've met are lying to me, most Men at least down things down when there's a lady present. I don't think there's a legitimate complaint to be had against that.
I think that's generally a good policy anything there's someone new around, regardless of gender or age or whatever. I mean, some women have to "tone it down" in polite society, too. If you don't know the scope of everyone's expletive vocabulary, it's probably a good idea to stick to prime time TV language.
The only reason I could see to complain about that is when it goes to an extreme, like "I'm afraid to say anything because I might offend somebody" or "We can't invite a lady to play poker because all women get offended at our humor."
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I must admit it's somewhat disheartening to be having conversations in this context/community that were being hashed out in most humane business contexts fifteen years past and in most educational contexts thirty years past. And to be hearing anecdotal and straw man arguments about how hard it is to be a white guy that have been ridiculous, demeaning, and profoundly ignorant on this continent for over half a millennium.
Over half a millennium ago there weren't any white guys on this continent. Well, maybe Mexico.
Under the old white Austalia policy I would be considered white but my mother would not...I am not on "your" continent.Yes, exposing my own prejudices and privilege there (assuming you're not on North America.)
What part of indigenous blood was that, 1/4th, 1/8th? 1/16th? Some other arbitrary fraction?
BigNorseWolf: I want you to know that I'm not trying to pick on you or "call you out" or anything. You just happen to have some really good examples of common concerns.
No problem. I'm the one putting on the saber tooth tiger cape here, I kinda expect it.
So if you just meet a guy, you're likely to tell that joke?
Maybe towards the end of the night.
Under any circumstance? Even at a job interview, during a formal fundraising dinner, or in a group of ministers?
No, no, and no but i will qualify that last "no" by saying its only because the minister is probably the one that told me.
I think when we're among people we know or who are more like ourselves, we subconsciously add context and group them at a more granular level. "Men" become "the guys at work" vs. "my bowling team" vs. "guys at church", and we adjust our behavior to fit the group.
The guys at work is a different group than everyone at work.
And I understand the concept of "not expected to be offended"--that is part of the socialized sexism we're talking about. In a perfect world, you would always feel able to speak up for yourself when something offends you, male or female. And you have every right to expect the offender to apologize and stop doing that.
I don't know if this is a male/female difference or just a me vs. the rest of my species difference, but it seems kind of alien to me to NEED to speak up because I've been offended, or assume that the other person needs to apologize because I was offended. Its usually just less problematic to bury the emotion and move on.
That's a shame, and it's not fair to expect anyone to be a mind reader.
From similar conversations its supposed to be body language, tone, and facial expressions but it amounts to the same thing. The woman thinks its plain as day, the guy gets blindsided.
If I don't tell you something is wrong or something offends me, I have no right to get upset if you keep doing it. I have a lot of empathy for people who have trouble picking up on more subtle behavioral cues. It's possible to learn to spot "tells" and get better with practice, but it really sucks that we can't just be honest with each other.
The problem with learning something like that is that it requires a known baseline to work off of.
The only reason I could see to complain about that is when it goes to an extreme, like "I'm afraid to say anything because I might offend somebody" or "We can't invite a lady to play poker because all women get offended at our humor."
Even the worry that a woman might object to something you say can raise the tension a bit if a group is usually all male.
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I don't know you very well, BNW, but maybe you're overthinking this shiznit? Or maybe you need to hang out with some less snooty women? I don't change any of those things when I am talking to women and they seem to like me fine. Unless I'm trying to get them in bed...but I don't think that's where you're going with this.
Do Goblins ever talk to women without trying to get them into bed?
Don't you know that goblins do it in the street?