You wouldn't call an individual woman a 'guy', no.
'Guys' is also collective noun for a group of people, regardless of gender - so once again context must be always taken into account to ensure comprehension.
The word 'gay' has a few definitions, each with its own application in context, indeed the dictionary gives us no less than five definitions where the adjective can be applied, and only one of these is the way you have said it could be used. I'm less offended by the word being used, and much more interested in the intent of the speaker; are they just using a word, or are they trying to cause offence? If they are trying to be offensive then thats a different conversation, if not, then I might say to them "Mate, gay? really?".
Similarly, if I am being offended by their word, could it just be that I am oversensitive to it?
Frankly of the words you have put up, I hate it when someone uses the word 'People' - drives me batty! - although I know that the intention is just to get the attention of the group rather than annoy me, so I don't correct people on it.
If it was a group of only males, the collective term I usually hear is 'Fellas' (as in fellows), mixed group is almost always 'guys'. Females only tends to be 'Ladies' - different circles I suppose. Y'all would just get a blank stare as we waitied for the Western to start and someone to bring us out some Miller beer.
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I just want to put it out there that I think "guys" is far less problematic than plenty of other terms that get thrown about really easily - but I am also a linguist, and I view the gender-neutral usage of it as having well and truly integrated itself into our language already. There's also no big push against it (as there is for words like 'gay' as 'bad') so I don't think it will become less commonly used. Just wanted to clarify that many feminists DO find it a problematic term, and why that is. I don't jump on people for it, although I might jump on people for other words, e.g. gay, retarded, rape (as in "I raped him at Halo"), etc.
"Hey, everyone" or "hey all" is what I prefer to use, personally. Or "Hey guys and girls" or "ladies and gents" sometimes. It takes me very little effort to use a more inclusive term, and if it makes someone feel a little more welcome, then it's worth it.
(Side note... as far as I'm concerned, if you're saying "oh that's so gay" you are equating "wrongness/badness" to being homosexual, and that's really not cool. Whether it's a conscious thing or not, it's still latent homophobia (on a social level more than an individual level) that really needs to be stomped into the ground.)
(Side note... as far as I'm concerned, if you're saying "oh that's so gay" you are equating "wrongness/badness" to being homosexual, and that's really not cool. Whether it's a conscious thing or not, it's still latent homophobia (on a social level more than an individual level) that really needs to be stomped into the ground.)
I'm hearing you on all of the initial part of your post, and if someone said 'I hate being called a guy', whether they were male or female, I'd happily use another term.
A female colleague of mine insisted on being called 'Sir' rather than 'Maam'. A few of the males sort of looked like they weren't sure whether she was joking or not, but everyone got on board no worries.
Now as to your last part about the whole 'Gay' thing, yeah I don't have any time for homophobia either, and that stuff needs to be questioned/challenged. Generally I think the message is getting through.
Maybe its just because I live in Sydney.
*sigh* Apparently a new moderator sweeping is required with some of the recent posts belonging to Gender/Sex Politics in the Real World instead of here. Hopefully, with the beginning of the new week there will be a moderator with enough time to do it but would be nice for a change not to waste Paizo staff time to do so :(
(BTW: is it technically possible for a moderator here to easily move posts from one thread to another? I know I could do such things when I had moderator privileges on private campaign forum but we used different messageboard engine...)
I'd love to go to the PFS games in Sydney, but I'm in Newcastle and the 2.5+ hour drive is a bit of a drag. The VC in Sydney said in another thread that they tried to start games up here in Newwie but they didn't go well. (Probably when I was overseas last year... else I would've dragged my friends along for sure.)
When I played PFS games at GenConOz back in '09 I was usually the only woman at the table. Or even the only woman at all the tables in that session. Here's hoping that PAX Aus's PFS games aren't the same way!
I'm hoping that it isn't. Gender imbalance in Brisbane is huge. There are female pathfinder players out there, most of them I know of play in home campaigns. I am not a hundred percent certain why they do not attend - many of their partners do - and have been trying to get a better understanding of this. Could be time of the week sessions run, the perception of it being a boys club (which it isn't) or that, like a lot of male gamers also, they're just not that into organised play and prefer the ongoing campaign vibe.
Always open for suggestions on how to change this...
I'm curious how it can both have huge gender imbalance and not be a boy's club?
Or at least not be perceived that way. You may not intend it to be a boys club, but if it is overwhelmingly male, why would a women looking into it think it isn't?
Gender imbalance can be self-reinforcing, without any bad intent on anyone's part.
I use boy's club in the sense that there is an unspoken rule that girls are not allowed. I totally agree gender imbalance can be self-perpetuating. It is a matter of determining what the elements of the circumstance that need to be altered to meet these needs.
Tonally, the games day/evening events I am running is inclusive, a factor that is fostered by example and people going out of their way to be welcoming. This is what I do in my paid job, so I have the hang of that.
The venues are not always ideal, which is something I am looking at experimenting with and seeing whether there are some changes in attendance when it is set in a cultural (library, museum), commercial (sympathetic coffee shop) or retail (hobby) context.
Historically, and by virtue of cliche, role-playing has been marketed to men. Paizo has made enormous strides in creating what is (imho) the most inclusive fantasy game on the market today. There are few negative gender/sexual stereotypes, women are presented as equal player options and not simply victims/servant class/noir villains.
Pathfinder Society encourages encourages inclusive play, I'm trying to get my head around framing that from a marketing context. Am working with a colleague who does this for my work, which will be interesting.
Lastly, as the previous statement suggested, I will have to investigate and ask why. That is usually the hard part, getting to the bottom of individual reasons without offending people.[/list]
Sorry if the above is a little ranty; mostly lack of sleep!
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Interesting stuff Daniel.
The choice of venue can be a bit of a barrier; the last few PFS 'cons' have been held in a number of pubs (ok they had a bistro etc) which while awesome as an adult, not entirely sure make for a good environment for the juniors. As we rely on said juniors (male AND female) I wonder if this is a good thing. That said, the same cold con food (still half frozen pies and warm cokle) and classrooms at a local school hired for purpose seem unwlecoming to everyone.
I think photos are also important. I'm not talking about the art accompanying the game, but photos of actual players actually playing the game. I am sure it makes an impression if a potential player is looking at a bunch of people playing a game and can identify with the group - so in this case, girls being able to clearly identify other girls playing, and be able to identify with those girls.
Could I kindly request then that you be even handed and remove the other side of the debate there?
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If you want to discuss the moderating policies on the boards, you are welcome to send an email to webmaster@paizo.com addressing your concerns.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I'm going to break one of Neil's rules here.
1. There are more women in home games than conventions, especially big conventions. I can't speak to the reasons why, but my anecdotal evidence suggests that there are many women who are playing PRGs, and perhaps Pathfinder, but who don't find it as much fun to play with a table of strangers. If you're looking at Gen Con / Origins, or even local game days or PFS tables, you'll mis-read the number of women gamers.
That's not to say that women gamers represent the same proportion as women fantasy readers; they do not. But tabletop RPGs don't capture the whole of the fantasy literature genre. When we look to the kinds of literature that our games model, we look for novels where the heroes and villains are obvious, and where most problems are solved by the application of sword and spell. That is, we're looking at the Sword & Sorcery subgenre.
And I think that there, women gamers are in proportion to women readers. There aren't that many women reading Conan or Elric. They're reading other types of fantasy.
2. Does anybody have any data on what kinds of campaigns women played, when D&D had a bunch of different campaign worlds? I ask, because I was teaching middle schoolers at that point, and DragonLance was superpopular among the 12-year-old girls in the mid-90s. So, were women following that literature into DragonLance campaigns more heavily than, say, Forgotten Realm or Dark Sun campaigns?
3. What kind of campaigns does Golarion offer? What's the genre? I'd identify it with a traditional / Greyhawk vibe, with some horror undercurrents. That's back to Swords & Sorcery, and Lovecraft. Those are traditionally male genres of literature, and they're going to attract mostly men.
[Of course that's a very coarse generalization. But there's adolescent boys' literature, and adolescent girl's literature. There are a lot of women who read Howard and Leiber and Lovecraft. But there are more who read McCafrey and Kurtz.]
Magic: the Gathering is another game with a heavy emphasis on beating up opponents. I honestly haven't looked at the typical M:tG demographics in a decade, but it used to have a disproportionate male-to-female crowd.
Neil's number one rule on the last page was: admit there's a problem. Is there? If we're marketing a traditionally male genre of adventure -- kill things and steal their stuff, and get stronger (rather than, say, better connected) -- then we should expect to attract a lot of guys who like adolescent male power fantasies. Model rockets, model railroads, baseball card collecting, SCA combat, stage magic: these are other hobbies that have more guys in them than girls. While I'm sure that Topps wouldn't mind doubling their fan base, I'm not sure if they see their gender ratio as a problem.
If we do, if we want to change things, I think Pathfinder needs to change in some basic way -- we need the game to focus less on Swords & Sorcery. I don't think that's a marketing issue, or a PR issue. I think it's a product issue.
Seemed the Freeforms/Larps did well for mixed groups, and anything Vampire was always much more gender balanced as well.
Anecdotally, I have heard of a few women over time that have been driven off 'con' type play because sitting around listening to a couple of rules lawyers argue a point of minutiae wasn't their bag. That said, I find it annoying when my friends do it at a table, so I agree that having to listen to it at a table full of relative strangers is a no brainer.
I'm not surprised they found something more constructuive to do with their time.
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Chris, I 100% think there is a problem with the fact that model rockets, model railroads, baseball card collecting, SCA combat, stage magic, and tabletop gaming are all viewed as "male" entertainment. I don't believe there is anything intrinsic to those hobbies that attracts men more than women; I believe that it is much more related to the way they are marketed and the way the communities around them act, as well as the fact that all people are taught from a young age that it is a bad thing to step outside of gender norms.
Consider children's toys. Children learn from a young age that pink/purple "girl" toys are only for girls, and blue/black "boy" toys are only for boys entirely because of the marketing around them. There's nothing intrinsically attracting girls to dolls and boys to cars, or girls to pink things or boys to blue things. That is 100% a marketing construction. Of course, it doesn't help that people will socialise their children into thinking that it's "bad" to step outside their assumed gender norms.
Now, we can't change the fact that people currently alive are most likely going to feel some internal, subconscious pressure to conform to their gender norms. But we CAN change a hobby to be more welcoming to the other gender and/or gender-neutral, so people don't feel the same pressure in the same way.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Now, I can't wield any appreciable authority on this subject, but I've had a few woman players, and currently play in a campaign led by one. So anecdotal and personal views mixed into one package.
BUT! There is one thing I am absolutely certain of: My players and GM hate being sugar-coated. Being handed things no other player gets, being offered advice where none was asked for, or worst of all, being paraded around as "look, we have a woman player" all get them riled up horrendously. And right they are. Consider that usually all these are signs that you think less of a person than the others in the same situation.
So my idea is: Stop treating them as either your party's housekeepers or special ed kids. If you must, play the first 2 sessions online as text only, so you get a view of the person without the boobs getting in the way. But get it through your head that you are not talking to a mystical other being that is special in so many way, you can't interact with her for fear of wilting her. Because honestly - a lot of gamers have woman issues. Not all, maybe no longer even most - but a lot do. And this insecurity can either turn inwards (special snowflake syndrome), or to full-on MCP behavior. But neither is something that in my experience, woman enjoy.
One thing I have done for a long time is the session critique and review after an evening. Everyone has their say, no harm no foul. Or at least, that is the idea. At the beginning, two of my female players never said much - until one of the male ones really grilled me over a rules error to their severe disadvantage. Only when shown it was ok to do so by one of their peers did they chime in. I've amended the damage done, and since that time, they regularly speak up. I really doubt I would have gotten that in a "special, woman only" conversation.
Now,Chris Mortika is right that adolescent girls prefer other types of fantasy than what Pathfinder provides. But guess what? The problem existed in the much more "woman friendly" genre services by V:tM as well - if not a little worse. As least in my limited view. So I guess it is not what we play, but what we are.
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Wall of text
I’ve been thinking a lot about this topic recently, in light of some talks I’ve had with a female gamer friend of mine. Her explaining her perspective on PFS really gave me an insight into how women interact with local gaming culture.
I do want to introduce my two nieces to Pathfinder, one really likes unicorns and fairies, the other is very good at problem solving and likes games like Minecraft on her DS. However, I’m going to wait until the wicked witch from the Wizard of Oz isn’t so scary for them.I’m not as verbose as Neil but here are some thoughts on solutions:
I like the idea of female only games but I think that this is a longer term solution that is tricky to implement especially if you don’t have sufficient numbers in the first place.
Bring a female buddy: Walking into a room where you don’t know anyone can be daunting, and this is dramatically compounded if you’re the only person of your gender. (Gentlemen, remember trying to approach a group of women who are talking among themselves, not super easy.) So when attempting to recruit new players or arrange games, perhaps consider working to arrange it so that there are at least two females on the same table. Having existing female gamers introduce a female buddy or simply be at the table for the first couple of sessions can ease that initial introductory period.
Art and iconics: I’m hetero male who likes the female form (and cleavage) but I’m so over Seoni’s outfit. Her lack of bra just looks plain uncomfortable. I’ve noticed that the pics of her that I like the most are actually the ones where she is doing something really cool. A good example is from the Haunting of Harrowstone where she is blowing up a flaming skull; her braids are swirling, her eyes are glowing red with energy, and she is laying the smack down. It’s an empowering image and Seoni looks very cool in it (IMO).
Imrijka’s cleavage is unnecessary. She’s meant to be wearing a breastplate, and while I can get over it being extremely form fitting, but does it really have to have green boobies poking out of the top? When I first saw the black and white sketch for her, I assumed she had reasonably protective armor and was kind of disappointed when I saw the color print, that she HAD to have cleavage. To me it’s the combination of Imrijka’s fashionable hat, long cloak, and tusks that make her cool.
I’d love a slight costume change or update for some of the iconics or at least occasionally see them in slightly different attire. I’m sure we’d all still recognise them.
The next generation: I’d appreciate PG RPG products tailored toward introducing a younger audience to roleplaying with consideration to being inclusive toward young girls (my nieces).
Wall of textI’ve been thinking a lot about this topic recently, in light of some talks I’ve had with a female gamer friend of mine. Her explaining her perspective on PFS really gave me an insight into how women interact with local gaming culture.
I do want to introduce my two nieces to Pathfinder, one really likes unicorns and fairies, the other is very good at problem solving and likes games like Minecraft on her DS. However, I’m going to wait until the wicked witch from the Wizard of Oz isn’t so scary for them.I’m not as verbose as Neil but here are some thoughts on solutions:
I like the idea of female only games but I think that this is a longer term solution that is tricky to implement especially if you don’t have sufficient numbers in the first place.
Bring a female buddy: Walking into a room where you don’t know anyone can be daunting, and this is dramatically compounded if you’re the only person of your gender. (Gentlemen, remember trying to approach a group of women who are talking among themselves, not super easy.) So when attempting to recruit new players or arrange games, perhaps consider working to arrange it so that there are at least two females on the same table. Having existing female gamers introduce a female buddy or simply be at the table for the first couple of sessions can ease that initial introductory period.
Art and iconics: I’m hetero male who likes the female form (and cleavage) but I’m so over Seoni’s outfit. Her lack of bra just looks plain uncomfortable. I’ve noticed that the pics of her that I like the most are actually the ones where she is doing something really cool. A good example is from the Haunting of Harrowstone where she is blowing up a flaming skull; her braids are swirling, her eyes are glowing red with energy, and she is laying the smack down. It’s an empowering image and Seoni looks very cool in it (IMO).
Imrijka’s cleavage is unnecessary. She’s meant to be wearing a breastplate, and while I can get over it...
+1 on the PG products with broad market appeal.
Shifty, I'm not american.
Like I said, it's a little thing. I don't mind the occasional 'guys' but several hours of it begins to grate. Most of the time it's men who tell me it's a gender-neuter word. Occasionally, I turn it round when I GM and call the mixed group 'girls.' I had one of the male players come up to me after and tell me he understood now why it was a problem.
Personally I have been addressed many times with 'girls', doesn't really bother me. 'Ladies' even, newp, still not bothered.
I can see how hours of 'guys' might begin to grate, although I can't understand why the word would need to be used so frequently at a gathering...
That said, 'guys' is a gender neutral collective noun.
Thats not men saying it, thats the dictionary.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guy
guy
1 [gahy] Show IPA noun, verb, guyed, guy·ing.
noun
1. Informal. a man or boy; fellow: He's a nice guy.
2. Usually, guys. Informal. persons of either sex; people: Could one of you guys help me with this?
3. Chiefly British Slang. a grotesquely dressed person.
4. ( often initial capital letter ) British . a grotesque effigy of Guy Fawkes that is paraded through the streets and burned on Guy Fawkes Day.
verb (used with object)
5. to jeer at or make fun of; ridicule.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/girl
girl
[gurl] Show IPA
noun
1. a female child, from birth to full growth.
2. a young, immature woman, especially formerly, an unmarried one.
3. a daughter: My wife and I have two girls.
4. Informal: Sometimes Offensive. a grown woman, especially when referred to familiarly: She's having the girls over for bridge next week.
5. girlfriend; sweetheart.
Note that there is no gender neutral aspect?
Suggests that using 'girls' is incorrect, and although in one case may have made a point, I'd reckon politely making the person using the term 'guys' against your taste (whether make or female) could be more effective.
Like my colleague who asked to be called 'Sir' instead of 'Maam', we all caught on and that was it. Once we were all on the same page everything worked well and no one had an issue.
Footnote: Our Government recently opened 'front line' positions to female soldiers, and she just graduated as the first female Armoured Corps troop commander - we also had the first two Infantry platoon commanders come through.
And you reckon it was tough working out how to make the gaming space more accessible... :p
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The word 'guys' definitely comes from a decidedly gender specific linguistic background-- why else would 'guy' in the singular be male-only, and 'guys' with no context give you the assumption of 'men'?
Also, the dictionary is never infallible -- don't you remember the Macquarie Dictionary thing on 'misogyny' late last year? :P
Some other sources' thoughts on the matter:-
In plural, guys is not completely gender-neutral but it may refer to people of either sex in some circumstances and forms; the greeting "Hey guys" can generally refer to people of either gender. This usage is not always seen as accurate or correct. Referring to a group as "guys" usually means a group of men or a mixed-gender group, since describing a group of women as guys, as in "the Pussycat Dolls are a bunch of guys", suggests that they are male, and is generally viewed as incorrect or inaccurate in that usage. In contrast, the all-male band Green Day could accurately be described as "a bunch of guys" in slang. The usage of the plural guys in the phrase "some guys chased them away" would generally be assumed to mean men rather than women.
An article about 'guys' as gender neutral, albeit from a feminist source.
One line from it that sums it all up:
Calling women “guys” makes femaleness invisible. It says that man-as in a male person-is still the measure of all things.
Whether or not language change has occurred, and whether or not the word usage as current is a good thing, is certainly up for debate. But whether you agree with the typical feminist point of view or not (I am pretty blasé about it, although I certainly understand where they come from) it's certainly difficult to argue that it is 100% gender neutral.
As you said though, the discussion is pretty irrelevant; if someone has an issue with it and you keep using it, regardless of the linguistic context and language change and etc etc, you're being a jerk!
Shifty, I'm not american.
Like I said, it's a little thing. I don't mind the occasional 'guys' but several hours of it begins to grate. Most of the time it's men who tell me it's a gender-neuter word. Occasionally, I turn it round when I GM and call the mixed group 'girls.' I had one of the male players come up to me after and tell me he understood now why it was a problem.
Ladies and gentlemen is the standard for any mixed table I have.
Shifty; we don't have anything on the armed services.:-)
Also, the dictionary is never infallible -- don't you remember the Macquarie Dictionary thing on 'misogyny' late last year? :P
Yeah actually I thought that was a high point!
I always found the term misogyny was a bit 'polar' in that it required visceral hatred, so I agree with their finding. It was nice to see a contemporary definition - and so aptly used by our female Prime Minister!
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Ugh I hate the reporting around the incident. The word has long referred to 'contempt' rather than outright 'hatred' (check out this blog article about it) - the dictionary was simply WAY out of date and the event spurred them to officially change it. Of course the media and the Opposition spun it into a big political thing, omg the dictionaries are changing to suit the PM, etc... *rolls eyes*
But yeah, yay, language! The important thing is to try and be aware of where you might inadvertently use something that is more exclusive than you might realise. And of course if someone requests you to tone down the language or refer to them in a certain way you honour their request (this might include trans people for example)
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I used to use guys as a collective term in my classes, not realising that women actually found it somewhat discriminating. After a couple of times when the girls/women in the room (term dependent on age of class) pulled me up on it, I changed my words.
I was like you Shifty, guys was always a gender neutral term for me. However, the English language is a living thing, and terminology changes meaning with every generation. I'm telling you now, most women don't like being referred to as guys.
Now I just use the word "everyone" or "all of you". If they're being particularly obnoxious I'll throw in the odd "Oi you lot!". I tried using ladies and gentlemen in class, but for some reason the majority of the teenagers I've come across don't like that one either.
Side note - I'm typing this on my iPad, and the auto correct on this thing tried to turn discriminating into disco mating. That would have been awkward in this conversation.
Cheers
Wait... 'Guys' is a gender neutral term.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guy
2. Usually, guys. Informal. persons of either sex; people: Could one of you guys help me with this?I find it strange that in America so many words have one, and ONLY one meaning.
Like the word Chatter I used earlier, nations around the world refer to conversations between insurgents as 'chatter' whilst monitoring their comms systems, and there are many other examples that crop up on these boards.
What is it with single definition concepts where context is discarded and the most offensive use of the term only is ever considered?
If that's in reference to my post about feeling it was somewhat sexist for someone to say to me, "You're just one of the guys," the context of that when I experience this is, "But it's okay for you to hear this, you're not a girl, you're just one of the guys." This is pretty much a direct quote. I've also been called a "dude with boobs." And no, I don't look like a man. While they could just be telling me I'm ugly, the context of the discussion is usually stuff like, "It's okay for me to talk about gaming/women/certain personal woes because I see you as male rather than female." While I get that ultimately on one hand there's a sort of trust/bonding inferred, which is nice, on the other it means that if these friends saw me "as a woman"--which I am--they would no longer see me as trustworthy or worthy of engaging in activities with them like gaming. ((I will also note a majority of my friends don't do this and the one in my current group who does has a pile of issues, gendered and otherwise.))
I am not referring to usage of the word "guys" in a generic context for a group of people, like "hey guys, let's go get some pizza." Which I have absolutely no problem with and do it all the time. That's just part of lingo.
My personal bugbear for gender terms is "ladies." I fully acknowledge it is my issue, but growing up being constantly asked to "act like a lady" was a way of telling me that being my active, tomboyish self was misbehavior. To be told to be a "lady" is in my head being told not to be myself (the opposite problem of above, I guess). I intellectually know people intend "ladies" simply as a respectful term for women, but whenever I hear/see the word my knee jerk reaction is to cringe. I also feel like sometimes it's condescending, and I'm not sure why I get that feeling, but I just do. Again, intellectually, I know people don't usually mean it that way. But still, I'd much rather be called a woman.
I think in both cases part of what bothers me is I feel like I'm not being seen for who I am.
My personal bugbear for gender terms is "ladies."
Oh no way, you mean when some really dodgy guy comes in all 'suave' gives you the once over twice and then says 'Hello la-dies' you just don't feel like immediately swooning? :P
I getcha, everytime I hear 'Ladies' it is with a really questionable tone as though it is almost an admonishment.
Side note - I'm typing this on my iPad, and the auto correct on this thing tried to turn discriminating into disco mating. That would have been awkward in this conversation.
That could have been epic :p
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"What's up people?"
That tends to be a default that works regardless of gender.
And being from North Carolina, the ubiquitous "Ya'll" likewise doesn't have an associated gender.
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Chris, I 100% think there is a problem with the fact that model rockets, model railroads, baseball card collecting, SCA combat, stage magic, and tabletop gaming are all viewed as "male" entertainment. I don't believe there is anything intrinsic to those hobbies that attracts men more than women; I believe that it is much more related to the way they are marketed and the way the communities around them act, as well as the fact that all people are taught from a young age that it is a bad thing to step outside of gender norms.
Consider children's toys. Children learn from a young age that pink/purple "girl" toys are only for girls, and blue/black "boy" toys are only for boys entirely because of the marketing around them. There's nothing intrinsically attracting girls to dolls and boys to cars, or girls to pink things or boys to blue things. That is 100% a marketing construction. Of course, it doesn't help that people will socialise their children into thinking that it's "bad" to step outside their assumed gender norms.
Now, we can't change the fact that people currently alive are most likely going to feel some internal, subconscious pressure to conform to their gender norms. But we CAN change a hobby to be more welcoming to the other gender and/or gender-neutral, so people don't feel the same pressure in the same way.
I´m beginning to think that while the problem itself is international, this debate is an american/australian or perhaps anglo-saxon thing in big parts. I also wonder who is reacting to whom but ignoring others.
So i´m gonna add something scientific to this point. In Germany there was/is a program to empower girls in school, so they get better marks and get more interested in the supposedly boy stuff. To achieve this, they changed a lot of the learning curriculum and teaching material to appeal more to girls. At the same time there was a ban on the typical boyish behavior, grappling and interjections and whatever punished much harsher while girls where encouraged to speak up. Math problems were told in words so they were in a girls attention and essays were to be wrote about butterflies instead of knights and castles. Communication and a lot of other stuff changed.(This is a simplification, can´t and won´t tell the whole thing here).
To fully understand you have to know that in kindergarden, ground and middle school teachers are 90% female. There is a strong nation wide women lobby here, an official part of the state with many represantatives and many of them belong to the old school of feminism and some have quite scary views for me. Short story, this "experiement ended in boys marks dropping so much and so much more boys dropping out of school and having a real mountain of problems, including problems with behaviour, that there are inquiries for a special boys support and a change of things again.
In addition to that comes the fact that many boys grow up with a father, so without any male role model, only with there single mothers which are under heavy pressure wokring and educating kids as well as all the emotional stuff that comes along with divorce (for both genders).
While girls might like soccer and boys dolls, there is a little bit more to it.
What´s more, it´s pretty common here that if there is a mixed group or even only boys you just say "ladies" or "girls", including the males. Or maybe just addressing the males, or single males as "miss". There is no negative connotation.
That might be due to "gentleman" being eyed critically, because if you are "too" friendly you risk being seen as flirtatious or patronizing, which can bring you in trouble as a man. Thanks to emancipation, men here are often more unfriendly and reluctant to help or approach women, because you never know how it´s gonna end.
Friendly men are also often seen as weak and omitted by women, especially emancipated women too, as a bitter side note. Communication here has become a mine field sometimes.
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Would it be fair to say that everyone (regardless of gender or nationality) should be aware of the cultural norms (both good and bad) and the nuances of language (both good and bad) at their respective gaming tables...and adjust accordingly? Can we just leave it at that? Because, I think the quibbling over the use of "guys"..."ladies"...regional and international differences...etc...is dancing around any real progress on the main issue...which is how do you make the hobby more appealing to women across the board, so their presence in the industry and at gaming tables grows? I realize everyone feels compelled to comment on various bits and pieces of these other conversations, but if we can focus on generating ideas for fostering more sustained involvement by ladies in the hobby, I think that'll make this discussion more useful.
Sure, it's important to consider the words you use at the gaming table so they don't offend or otherwise feed into stereotypes and offput lady gamers. However, I don't think we're going to hit upon a single, silver bullet idea that can be implemented universally that's going to address that. GMs and their players will just need to check themselves and adjust both their attitudes and their communication accordingly. And, as always, check with your players after each game to determine their level of enjoyment and solicit feedback on how things can be improved. That's about as far as we're going to get on that one. So, I'd recommend setting it aside and steering things to a new idea or proposed solution.
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Chris, I 100% think there is a problem with the fact that model rockets, model railroads, baseball card collecting, SCA combat, stage magic, and tabletop gaming are all viewed as "male" entertainment. I don't believe there is anything intrinsic to those hobbies that attracts men more than women; I believe that it is much more related to the way they are marketed and the way the communities around them act, as well as the fact that all people are taught from a young age that it is a bad thing to step outside of gender norms.
Consider children's toys. Children learn from a young age that pink/purple "girl" toys are only for girls, and blue/black "boy" toys are only for boys entirely because of the marketing around them. There's nothing intrinsically attracting girls to dolls and boys to cars, or girls to pink things or boys to blue things. That is 100% a marketing construction. Of course, it doesn't help that people will socialise their children into thinking that it's "bad" to step outside their assumed gender norms.
Now, we can't change the fact that people currently alive are most likely going to feel some internal, subconscious pressure to conform to their gender norms. But we CAN change a hobby to be more welcoming to the other gender and/or gender-neutral, so people don't feel the same pressure in the same way.
They are also seemingly an entirely white thing. I think it is more than just a gender issue and maybe a general lack of interest from other groups in general is the problem.
Also the absolute bucking of marketing and gender stereotypes is why i find the bronies so fascinating
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Personally I have been addressed many times with 'girls', doesn't really bother me. 'Ladies' even, newp, still not bothered.
I can see how hours of 'guys' might begin to grate, although I can't understand why the word would need to be used so frequently at a gathering...
That said, 'guys' is a gender neutral collective noun.
Thats not men saying it, thats the dictionary.http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guy
Note that there is no gender neutral aspect?
Indeed. I also note that the dictionary says that 'he' is a gender neutral pronoun. You are presumed male unless proven otherwise - that's the male presumptive. Being female is an afterthought. Being neither renders you a non-person.
I'm sorry, that's a pet peeve of mine.
(My dictionary also says that a guy is a life sized straw-stuffed doll
thrown onto bonfires, and I'm sure you aren't that either.)
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Would it be fair to say that everyone (regardless of gender or nationality) should be aware of the cultural norms (both good and bad) and the nuances of language (both good and bad) at their respective gaming tables...and adjust accordingly? Can we just leave it at that? Because, I think the quibbling over the use of "guys"..."ladies"...regional and international differences...etc...is dancing around any real progress on the main issue...which is how do you make the hobby more appealing to women across the board, so their presence in the industry and at gaming tables grows? I realize everyone feels compelled to comment on various bits and pieces of these other conversations, but if we can focus on generating ideas for fostering more sustained involvement by ladies in the hobby, I think that'll make this discussion more useful.
Sure, it's important to consider the words you use at the gaming table so they don't offend or otherwise feed into stereotypes and offput lady gamers. However, I don't think we're going to hit upon a single, silver bullet idea that can be implemented universally that's going to address that. GMs and their players will just need to check themselves and adjust both their attitudes and their communication accordingly. And, as always, check with your players after each game to determine their level of enjoyment and solicit feedback on how things can be improved. That's about as far as we're going to get on that one. So, I'd recommend setting it aside and steering things to a new idea or proposed solution.
Neil,
Excellent point in the first paragraph. We can sit on a message board and argue all the little details, or we can get out there and game and make adjustments to our personal gaming areas.
On a larger front, I think it would be interesting to do an all woment's gaming table at Gencon, however, I think most women that go to conventions (that aren't uber gamers like me) go to be with their spouse/SO and so splitting them off might be counterintuitive. But, we'll never know until we try it. So Mike, I'll put my hat in the ring as saying I'll run as many women only tables at gencon next year that you want me to (there are 10 slots right? lol). Any other women up for the challenge?
A convention setting can be extremely intimidating for someone who is one their own (goes for males and females alike), however, this is a hobby that historically has been more accepting to males and less, historically, accepting as females. That said, I've seen the tide changing in how women are accepted locally. We can't change the larger picture until we change the smaller pieces. So until women feel accepted in their local communities they are rarely going to branch out to the larger areas of the community.
I think the strongest most pointful thing we as women gamers can do is to be out there and be present in the industry. If we become shrinking flowers because "it's a mans world" then we are only doing ourselves a disfavor.
There are a lot of strong women viewpoints in this thread, I urge the men that have been sooooo prolific as to what they think the issues are to go back and read the posts made by the women. They/we have been telling you what the issues are -- listen that is all I think most of us are asking.
I think the one poster, for me, in this thread that has been embodying what we as women have been trying to overcome in the industry is Samauri (I'm sure I'm spelling it wrong, sorry); I've seen several posts by that person telling us how to GM, telling us it's ok to have fun, etc., ummmm we know that and we are.
I'll go back to my original post that I made in this thread yesterday; don't single us out, offer options not "advice", and don't stare at us like we have two heads -- they are boobs not heads and we don't really pay attention to them anyway-- and I think we'll all be ok.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Would it be fair to say that everyone (regardless of gender or nationality) should be aware of the cultural norms (both good and bad) and the nuances of language (both good and bad) at their respective gaming tables...and adjust accordingly? Can we just leave it at that? Because, I think the quibbling over the use of "guys"..."ladies"...regional and international differences...etc...is dancing around any real progress on the main issue...which is how do you make the hobby more appealing to women across the board, so their presence in the industry and at gaming tables grows? I realize everyone feels compelled to comment on various bits and pieces of these other conversations, but if we can focus on generating ideas for fostering more sustained involvement by ladies in the hobby, I think that'll make this discussion more useful.
Sure, it's important to consider the words you use at the gaming table so they don't offend or otherwise feed into stereotypes and offput lady gamers. However, I don't think we're going to hit upon a single, silver bullet idea that can be implemented universally that's going to address that. GMs and their players will just need to check themselves and adjust both their attitudes and their communication accordingly. And, as always, check with your players after each game to determine their level of enjoyment and solicit feedback on how things can be improved. That's about as far as we're going to get on that one. So, I'd recommend setting it aside and steering things to a new idea or proposed solution.
I'm not saying you're wrong Neil; putting the issue aside to foster a more welcoming environment is a good idea.
However, I gotta say that making sure the forms of address you use are gender appropriate is hardly such an out there idea that it even deserves the term "silver bullet." What's more, if you address a mixed group as guys, and one of the women raises her hand and says "I'm a gal, please take note," responding with "It's a gender neutral term, it says so right in the dictionary!" is the exact opposite of fostering a welcoming environment. I don't mean to speak for TanithT (or anyone else), but it seems to me that it's the sort of behavior that's driven her away from various tables in the past.
This isn't a silver bullet either, this is manners 101. If you want to foster a more welcoming environment at your gaming table, you should adjust your behavior if someone raises an issue with you, rather than arguing with them.
I think the quibbling over the use of "guys"..."ladies"...regional and international differences...etc...is dancing around any real progress on the main issue...which is how do you make the hobby more appealing to women across the board, so their presence in the industry and at gaming tables grows? I realize everyone feels compelled to comment on various bits and pieces of these other conversations, but if we can focus on generating ideas for fostering more sustained involvement by ladies in the hobby, I think that'll make this discussion more useful.
The foundations for a solution lie in these bits and pieces, you know. Regional differences should be taken into account when answering the question asked in the OP. Because really, would we want to repeat the mistake of assuming all people of group X fit this certain peg with no regard to the current climate one would have in said area? Do we really want to do the same thing that caused this problem in the first place by making broad assumptions? I hope this does not sound like random rambling and that I didn't misread the part I'm quoting..
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"What's up people?"
That tends to be a default that works regardless of gender.
And being from North Carolina, the ubiquitous "Ya'll" likewise doesn't have an associated gender.
Thank god for the Y'all, right? North Carolina getting egalitarianism right! And how 'bout them Tar Heels?
But back on topic, I spoke to my wife who still is both a relatively new gamer and a female gamer. She said that one of the best ways she could think to empower women as gamers generally, but also benefit new gamers over all, would be to distill the majority of the rules down into 1-2 pages of a handout that could be given out at the Intro Steps or other PFS games.
Simple things, like for instance when the DM tells you to roll, unless it's for damage, you're rolling a D20, to make the terminology and the mechanics more approachable. The rules are large and ponderous, but the basics are not. Giving folks access to the very basic rules would allow them to not rely so heavily on others, be lost as frequently, or get bulldozed by more veteran gamers as we've all seen happen.
I prefer "Dude" and "Dudette."
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Personally, when I'm DM-ing, I like to go with something gender neutral; for instance, after combat is done I'll say something like "Well, you insignificant worms failed your Search rolls, so you don't get any treasure, now which door do you idiots want to open next?"
I mean, as long as the men cry just as often as the women, I don't think gender equity is a problem.
But back on topic, I spoke to my wife who still is both a relatively new gamer and a female gamer.
In the context of this thread, this very sentence makes me smile :)
I think Strange Packets` wifes idea is great!
There is already such a thing in the downloadsection of the Paizo site, but it could be a bit more elaborate.
And i really can confirm this problem. I, as a male GM, who has been into RPG´s for 2 decades and is therefore heavily familiar with the genre and it´s ideas, admitting my own weakness at explaining properly and simplified sometimes, have experienced this with a lot of new players, but especially female players. This is in no way condescending, but it could mirror the privilege of some males having had more contact with similar things before here.
Beginners box is also no alternative here, because when i get out this box and say: ok, let´s start with simplified rules or something similar that hints at the complex rules system, i lost the potentially willing and interested females more than one time because it scared them away.
When i could say here it´s two pages and your character abilities at level 1 it´s similar complex to most other boardgames and much more acceptable.
@Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome: One problem that i have here and that is really growing, i don´t really know often who is female and who not. It´s usualy none of my concern, but in this special context it might matter.
Ken, could you clarify what you mean when you say "it scared them away"? I assume you're talking about the complexity of even a simplified version of PF, but tell me if I'm wrong.
I don't have the Beginner Box at hand, but I've been on a bit of an OSR kick with with the Moldvay B/X rules lately, and after various D20 systems I was rather flabbergasted at how simple that system is. That is, like you, I've been playing for decades, and a system like PF seems perfectly transparent to me, but to roll up a character you have to deal with ability scores, race, class, skill and feats. In B/X D&D you roll up your ability scores and choose your class and you're done.
...But now I feel like I'm derailing the thread into "beginner friendly" rather than "female friendly."
@Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome: One problem that i have here and that is really growing, i don´t really know often who is female and who not. It´s usualy none of my concern, but in this special context it might matter.
I can understand that ... we are coming out of an era where women have had to create genderless monikers in order to have their expertise acknowledge vs. ignored by what I call the "old guard".
What I mean by the "old guard" is the group of guys just can't fathom a "girl" being involved or even understand this complex hobby that we are involved in. Much less having one of those "girls" running the game. I mean, we really are just meant for breeding right? (please not I don't feel that way, I'm making a point.. go with it).
As one of the few 5 star society GMs this far, even to this day I face reactions similar; I've gotten:
"oh you're a girl" -- my response is to look inside my shirt and exclaim "OMG you're right... ooooo" and then proceed to try and kill the character.
I've had male players on my tables pull out comments and actions that they wouldn't have tried with a male GM to see if they could "break the girl" -- I didn't break (mainly cause pretty much nothing offends me) and turned it back on them. The next day that same group of players was much more respectful.
In the last six months, I ran for a group of players that had never seen nor had a female GM -- they had a blast, but there isn't much from that table that can be repeated in polite company hehe.
...But now I feel like I'm derailing the thread into "beginner friendly" rather than "female friendly."
That is one of the problems this thread got, so many dimensions mixed into each other, but then it´s like in real life.
In the context i was talking about, beginner friendly is female friendly, because said females are beginners and one dimension of this thread is about how to introduce more female to Pathfinder.The beginner box "scared" them away because they got the impression of Pathfinder being something overly complex they have to invest a lot of time into plus that it is linked with D&D and other rpg´s which have the reputation of both being a boys thing and a nerd thing.
If i come to you and introduce you to something and say ok we use very simplified rules for kids, because you can´t grasp the real rules just like that, you will have second thoughts. Of course i need not tell, but then there will be a strange moment later, when we switch to real rules.
(I add that the same is true for male persons which are beginners, beginners box is just more for kids in my eyes.)
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome, i know what you mean "the old guard", i have a lot of problems with those people. Unfortunately they still reproduce. I think learning how to handle those is one major point of this thread and problem, since they often transport questionable values. Interestingly those often have problems with men playing female characters, which i sometimes do, especially in all male groups, because it is testing and questioning mindsets like female=sexual and brings many guys out of their comfort zone because they have a hard time thinking about if they treat you like they would treat a women ingame and perhaps even changes their reception of you outgame what might then really give them problems, especially if you are more selfconfident with you manliness and can play a women without any pervert or sexistic stuff. Which in return is pretty rewarding for yourself, because you can learn a lot more empathy that way. Hope i explained that well.
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Neil,
Excellent point in the first paragraph. We can sit on a message board and argue all the little details, or we can get out there and game and make adjustments to our personal gaming areas.
On a larger front, I think it would be interesting to do an all woment's gaming table at Gencon, however, I think most women that go to conventions (that aren't uber gamers like me) go to be with their spouse/SO and so splitting them off might be counterintuitive. But, we'll never know until we try it. So Mike, I'll put my hat in the ring as saying I'll run as many women only tables at gencon next year that you want me to (there are 10 slots right? lol). Any other women up for the challenge?
A convention setting can be extremely intimidating for someone who is one their own (goes for males and females alike), however, this is a hobby that historically has been more accepting to males and less, historically, accepting as females. That said, I've seen the tide changing in how women are accepted locally. We can't change the larger picture until we change the smaller pieces. So until women feel accepted in their local communities they are rarely going to branch out to the larger areas of the community.
I think the strongest most pointful thing we as women gamers can do is to be out there and be present in the industry. If we become shrinking flowers because "it's a mans world" then we are only doing ourselves a disfavor.
There are a lot of strong women viewpoints in this thread, I urge the men that have been sooooo prolific as to what they think the issues are to go back and read the posts made by the women. They/we have been telling you what the issues are -- listen that is all I think most of us are asking.
I think the one poster, for me, in this thread that has been embodying what we as women have been trying to overcome in the industry is Samauri (I'm sure I'm spelling it wrong, sorry); I've seen several posts by that person telling us how to GM, telling us it's ok to have fun, etc., ummmm we know that and we are.
I'll go back to my original post that I made in this thread yesterday; don't single us out, offer options not "advice", and don't stare at us like we have two heads -- they are boobs not heads and we don't really pay attention to them anyway-- and I think we'll all be ok.
Purple, you missed my point entirely. I was saying exactly what you are, don't single women out, treat everyone equally. Here is what I said:
The advice I'd give a female GM would be no different than I'd give a male one.
* Make sure you have fun too. GMing should be enjoyable, not a burden that you bear so the players can have fun. It's usually very noticable when the GM is enjoying themself or not.
* Know the rules as much as possible, but be willing to make a judgement call or ask someone to look up a rule if needed.
* Have a basic plot and idea of where it's going but be able to adapt it to the players actions.
* Don't let players run ruff-shod over you, but also don't act like a tyrant or go mad with power. If you feel a player got away with some combo or action in the last session that you want to make sure doesn't happen again, at the start of the next session explain how that will be ruled from now on, or discuss it by emails between sessions.
* Try to make NPCs and situations dramatic and memorable. If you can, ham it up a bit and do different voices for important characters. Have fun with it!
* While you are playing the bad guys, as well as all other NPCs, you shouldn't have an adversarial attitude toward the players, nor treat them as a captive audience. You are there to have fun together, not to "beat them" and not to tell them your epic story on a railroad.
That's what I'd tell any GM. After a session under their belt, I'd get back together with them and say "Here's what you did well, here's a few things you might try..."
It was a response to "how to teach women to DM more", and the whole point I was making was "exactly the same as you teach anyone else to DM, with practical advice, not 'female-only' advice that is condescending or treats them as 'other'". From what you wrote, that should be something you'd agree with.
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome, i know what you mean "the old guard", i have a lot of problems with those people. Unfortunately they still reproduce. I think learning how to handle those is one major point of this thread and problem, since they often transport questionable values. Interestingly those often have problems with men playing female characters, which i sometimes do, especially in all male groups, because it is testing and questioning mindsets like female=sexual and brings many guys out of their comfort zone because they have a hard time thinking about if they treat you like they would treat a women ingame and perhaps even changes their reception of you outgame what might then really give them problems, especially if you are more selfconfident with you manliness and can play a women without any pervert or sexistic stuff. Which in return is pretty rewarding for yourself, because you can learn a lot more empathy that way. Hope i explained that well.
You did explain that well ... to take it a step further, I think there is also a genderculteral piece present as well.
As child, girls have historically been taught that their fathers, and older brothers, and then other male friends would act as protectors for them. My mother always talks about the evolution of the relationship between my older brother and I:
When I was between 2 and 3, he and I got along wonderfully, we would play together for hours, and never fuss for fight. Generally that playing was doing what he wanted to do, for I had not developed a voice as to what I wanted to do. That solidified in his mind that I would always do what he wanted me to do.. because he was the older brother and could tell me things.
Fast forward a year or two to when I had started thinking more for myself an no longer wanted to be the moat that his bridge was build over (oh yeah... I have the pictures *sigh*), and instead I wanted him to play dolls with me. That's when the arguements started... I had learned that I had a voice and didn't have to do what he told me to.
To bring this back to gaming...The subset of women involved in gaming in this day and age have a two-part piece to the genderculteral element. We still have the teachings of our younger years that constantly wrestle with the teachings of our adult lives which is to be a strong independent women in todays society.
I think for the most part the majority of us have overcome that struggle and know when to lean and when to stand. However men have not figured that out yet. They still harken back to the teachings of their youths to always protect and prevent the girl from falling, prevent the girl from being hurt... there is the will robinson robot in their heads repeating "protect protect protect" and it seems (to me) that many of the men in our gaming society let that robot overtake their normally rational thought process and in turn end up smothering the women in the gaming community.
Did I say all that well enough? lol
...Neil,
Excellent point in the first paragraph. We can sit on a message board and argue all the little details, or we can get out there and game and make adjustments to our personal gaming areas.
On a larger front, I think it would be interesting to do an all woment's gaming table at Gencon, however, I think most women that go to conventions (that aren't uber gamers like me) go to be with their spouse/SO and so splitting them off might be counterintuitive. But, we'll never know until we try it. So Mike, I'll put my hat in the ring as saying I'll run as many women only tables at gencon next year that you want me to (there are 10 slots right? lol). Any other women up for the challenge?
A convention setting can be extremely intimidating for someone who is one their own (goes for males and females alike), however, this is a hobby that historically has been more accepting to males and less, historically, accepting as females. That said, I've seen the tide changing in how women are accepted locally. We can't change the larger picture until we change the smaller pieces. So until women feel accepted in their local communities they are rarely going to branch out to the larger areas of the community.
I think the strongest most pointful thing we as women gamers can do is to be out there and be present in the industry. If we become shrinking flowers because "it's a mans world" then we are only doing ourselves a disfavor.
There are a lot of strong women viewpoints in this thread, I urge the men that have been sooooo prolific as to what they think the issues are to go back and read the posts made by the women. They/we have been telling you what the issues are -- listen that is all I think most of us are asking.
I think the one poster, for me, in this thread that has been embodying what we as women have been trying to overcome in the industry is Samauri (I'm sure I'm spelling it wrong, sorry); I've seen several posts by that person telling us how to GM, telling us
Ahhh I see that now, my apologies for mis-understanding the stance you were taking.
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Ahhh I see that now, my apologies for mis-understanding the stance you were taking.
NP. My point has always been "treat women as equals at the table, not as some strange creature that needs special attention, care, or even segregation". I don't think most female gamers want to be seen as FEMALE gamers, but rather as female GAMERS, or better yet, just gamers. If they are new to the game or new to GMing, teach and advise them like you would anyone else that is new. If they are experienced at the game, respect that experience the same as you would anyone else's. Bring more gamers of all kinds into the hobby, including female gamers, but don't include them by excluding everyone else.
Some have characterized this as "denying there's a problem" but I don't see it that way... I think treating female gamers differently IS the problem. Treating them like a piece of meat, or like a child, or like she's invisible, or like she's extra-special, or she needs to be sheltered, or myriad other ways in which she isn't just "one of the people playing a game with us", she's 'different'.
But like I said, that's just my opinion.