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That's a good way to look at it.
I think that a strict interpretation of RAW would state that you can't use the Crane feats at all while wielding a bow, but since you could "hold" said bow without wielding it essentially as a free or non-action... I think the only issue here would be if you tried comboing it up with something like Snap Shot, which mould muddy the waters quite a bit.
If one had the three feats together, and a Wizard summons a creature next to you. You are fighting with a bow at the time, would you be able to deflect the incoming attack? Would you be able to riposte back a returning attack. A Long bow states that you need 2 hands to use. But when your not firing the bow, you would have 1 hand free in my opinion. thus even an archer could use the crane feats to deflect an incoming melee attack with these feats. On the other hand, you would not have a free hand if you provoke an attack when firing, so you could not deflect that attack. Am I looking at this correctly?
Crane feats require you to Fight Defensively. Can't fight defensively unless you wield a weapon right? Can't wield a 2 handed weapon (bow) and still have 1 hand free.
At least that's how I understand it.
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If one had the three feats together, and a Wizard summons a creature next to you. You are fighting with a bow at the time, would you be able to deflect the incoming attack? Would you be able to riposte back a returning attack. A Long bow states that you need 2 hands to use. But when your not firing the bow, you would have 1 hand free in my opinion. thus even an archer could use the crane feats to deflect an incoming melee attack with these feats. On the other hand, you would not have a free hand if you provoke an attack when firing, so you could not deflect that attack. Am I looking at this correctly?Crane feats require you to Fight Defensively. Can't fight defensively unless you wield a weapon right? Can't wield a 2 handed weapon (bow) and still have 1 hand free.
At least that's how I understand it.
That's a very good point. If you're just holding the bow at the end of your turn you aren't wielding a weapon any more, so can you still fight defensively?
Actually, I don't know if that stops it... You have to have Improved Unarmed Strike for Crane Style, so you're still "armed" even if you're just holding the bow...
Actually, I don't know if that stops it... You have to have Improved Unarmed Strike for Crane Style, so you're still "armed" even if you're just holding the bow...
Good point. So as long as you are fighting defensively (-1 with the Crane Feats) for the whole round, it seems that it would work even when holding a weapon that you aren't wielding.
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Actually, I don't know if that stops it... You have to have Improved Unarmed Strike for Crane Style, so you're still "armed" even if you're just holding the bow...Good point. So as long as you are fighting defensively (-1 with the Crane Feats) for the whole round, it seems that it would work even when holding a weapon that you aren't wielding.
My thought as well.
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Keep in mind that if you chose to take your hand off your bow I would rule that you no longer have it readied, though a free action on your turn can fix that. This means if you are 9th level or have the snap shot feat you will not threaten until you re-ready your bow. At that point it becomes a trade off, do I keep the ability to make AoOs with the bow or do I set myself up for a great defense.
Another option is Snake Style and a high sense motive check. This one is good cause it also works vs. touch attacks
Keep in mind that if you chose to take your hand off your bow I would rule that you no longer have it readied, though a free action on your turn can fix that. This means if you are 9th level or have the snap shot feat you will not threaten until you re-ready your bow. At that point it becomes a trade off, do I keep the ability to make AoOs with the bow or do I set myself up for a great defense.
Another option is Snake Style and a high sense motive check. This one is good cause it also works vs. touch attacks
Well, you only have both hands on a bow while you are actually loading and drawing. Since you fire by letting go of the string, once you fire the arrow, by definition you have a free hand. I would have no problem with an archer shooting defensively and using Crane Style as long as the character wasn't interrupted mid-shot and needed to deflect an attach while firing.
For readied actions involving a bow attack, I would say that the character has an arrow nocked and therefore does not have a hand free for Crane Style. (Note, however, that an archer with unarmed strike would still threaten melee AoOs, because unarmed strike can be a foot, knee, etc.)
Now, AoOs with a bow become an interesting issue: does the character have to have a nocked arrow to make AoOs with a bow? Or does the character draw and fire all at once? That's tricky...I need to research that one a bit.
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This would be for Society play. ***
Then you've got an issue. By strict RAW, you cannot use Crane Style while wielding a bow. That means that the issue Taenia brought up "This means if you are 9th level or have the snap shot feat you will not threaten until you re-ready your bow. At that point it becomes a trade off, do I keep the ability to make AoOs with the bow or do I set myself up for a great defense" is going to apply.
This is where real world logic and game mechanics get all muddled up. To be wielding a bow in game requires two hands. If you aren't using two hands, you aren't "wielding" the bow, and you can't make attacks of opportunity with it via Snap Shot. If you are wielding it, you don't have a free hand for the Crane feats.
I'd personally probably house rule this to allow it in my home games, but you cannot combo the two for PFS.
Unarmed Strikes need not be done with the hands. This should apply in Society play as well.
Not true for a Monk
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
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Unarmed Strikes need not be done with the hands. This should apply in Society play as well.
Which doesn't have any bearing on the issue at hand. Crane Wing specifically requires you to have a hand free, which means you cannot use it while wielding a bow, particularly for PFS play.
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How do you NOT have a hand free between turns while wielding a bow? (Barring the feat that allows Attacks of Opportunity with a bow of course.)
Again this is one of those mechanics =/= logic. RAW says you need two hands to wield a bow. If you aren't using two hands, you aren't wielding your bow, so you can't make AoO with it between your turns. You have to choose to either have a hand free for Crane Wing, or be wielding your bow so you can use Snap Shot.
As I said, I would probably house rule this to allow you to do either for my home game, but it is a no go for PFS.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
thus even an archer could use the crane feats to deflect an incoming melee attack with these feats.
I would not allow it if I was GMing. It's neither within the spirit or mechanics of the rule. And you could not use it in PFS because PFS runs RAW only.
If I was your GM, I would be irked that you're trying to be cheesy, taking one of the most powerful aspects of the game (archery) and combining it with one of the best feats of the game (which was meant for unarmed monks).
I would only allow it if:
A) You weren't attacking (or were flatfooted); or
B) You attacked with a standard action only.
Sorry, if you're full attacking, both hands are busy.
Remember, you're still firing continuously even though it's not your turn. It's not like when your turn ends, you stop firing and you're just waiting to deflect an incoming attack. The game works like this so that it's easy to play, and we don't have to work out what each combatant does in each second of the round.
I would not allow it if I was GMing. It's neither within the spirit or mechanics of the rule. And you could not use it in PFS because PFS runs RAW only.
Which thing, in particular?
If he fights defensively as a full round action, then removes a hand from his bow leaving it free, he now qualifies to use Crane Wing until he no longer has a hand free, or the start of his next turn.
He can't combine that with a readied action to shoot (since that would mean he's not yet fighting defensively) nor can he still threaten with snap shot (since he's not using two hands on the bow). So if you were saying he can't threaten with the bow and deflect at the same time, then you're correct.
Remember, you're still firing continuously even though it's not your turn. It's not like when your turn ends, you stop firing and you're just waiting to deflect an incoming attack.
Actually, that's exactly how the game works. If he takes a full-attack, then drops his bow, then at the end of his turn he's not shooting or wielding or anything, he's standing there with empty hands.
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How do you NOT have a hand free between turns while wielding a bow? (Barring the feat that allows Attacks of Opportunity with a bow of course.)
At the end of your turn, you could easily take a free action to switch from wielding your bow, to holding your bow, and be able to use Crane Style. During that time, you are not wielding your bow and cannot utilize it. At the start of your turn, you could then use another free action to switch from holding your bow to wielding it again. Crane Style isn't necessarily incompatible with archery in general, but it is incompatible with Snap Shot or a Zen Archer's Reflexive Shot ability.
The AoO's in question would be unarmed strikes, not an arrow shot, correct?
If the character is using Crane Wing, and deflects a melee attack, he can use Crane Riposte to make an AoO against that opponent with anything he threatens with.
If he's not wielding the bow, then he doesn't threaten with it, so he would not be able to take the AoO with the bow.
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The AoO's in question would be unarmed strikes, not an arrow shot, correct?
Snap Shot and Reflexive Shot allow you to make attacks of opportunity with a bow. You cannot use those abilities in conjunction with Crane Wing since Crane Wing specifically requires you to have a free hand and a bow is a two handed weapon. Using your unarmed strikes to make attacks of opportunity against adjacent enemies while wielding a bow is just fine.
If one had the three feats together, and a Wizard summons a creature next to you. You are fighting with a bow at the time, would you be able to deflect the incoming attack? Would you be able to riposte back a returning attack. A Long bow states that you need 2 hands to use. But when your not firing the bow, you would have 1 hand free in my opinion. thus even an archer could use the crane feats to deflect an incoming melee attack with these feats. On the other hand, you would not have a free hand if you provoke an attack when firing, so you could not deflect that attack. Am I looking at this correctly?Crane feats require you to Fight Defensively. Can't fight defensively unless you wield a weapon right? Can't wield a 2 handed weapon (bow) and still have 1 hand free.
At least that's how I understand it.
You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 to AC until the start of your next turn.
No requirement for wielding a weapon.
Anyone with Improved Unarmed Strike will still threaten adjacent opponents and be able to counter attack with an unarmed strike while using Crane Style.
Most of the combat styles, including Crane Style, are already geared towards monks using unarmed strikes. This describes exactly the OP when not his turn; a monk using unarmed strikes.
Possible to get a official ruling on this? Seems its pretty divided on the issue.
Support for 1st edition has been discontinued.
Possible to get a official ruling on this? Seems its pretty divided on the issue.Support for 1st edition has been discontinued.
How silly of Blackdragondisciple to post about a 1st edition issue a mere six years before 2nd edition was due!
Possible to get a official ruling on this? Seems its pretty divided on the issue.Support for 1st edition has been discontinued.How silly of Blackdragondisciple to post about a 1st edition issue a mere six years before 2nd edition was due!
Or, possibly, the post that bumped it to the top of the rules forum was deleted.
Somebody appears to be doing that with quite a few old rules posts.