Crane Style question.


Rules Questions

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

If one had the three feats together, and a Wizard summons a creature next to you. You are fighting with a bow at the time, would you be able to deflect the incoming attack? Would you be able to riposte back a returning attack. A Long bow states that you need 2 hands to use. But when your not firing the bow, you would have 1 hand free in my opinion. thus even an archer could use the crane feats to deflect an incoming melee attack with these feats. On the other hand, you would not have a free hand if you provoke an attack when firing, so you could not deflect that attack. Am I looking at this correctly?

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

That's a good way to look at it.
I think that a strict interpretation of RAW would state that you can't use the Crane feats at all while wielding a bow, but since you could "hold" said bow without wielding it essentially as a free or non-action... I think the only issue here would be if you tried comboing it up with something like Snap Shot, which mould muddy the waters quite a bit.


Pathfinder Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Blackdragondisciple wrote:
If one had the three feats together, and a Wizard summons a creature next to you. You are fighting with a bow at the time, would you be able to deflect the incoming attack? Would you be able to riposte back a returning attack. A Long bow states that you need 2 hands to use. But when your not firing the bow, you would have 1 hand free in my opinion. thus even an archer could use the crane feats to deflect an incoming melee attack with these feats. On the other hand, you would not have a free hand if you provoke an attack when firing, so you could not deflect that attack. Am I looking at this correctly?

Crane feats require you to Fight Defensively. Can't fight defensively unless you wield a weapon right? Can't wield a 2 handed weapon (bow) and still have 1 hand free.

At least that's how I understand it.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Canthin wrote:
Blackdragondisciple wrote:
If one had the three feats together, and a Wizard summons a creature next to you. You are fighting with a bow at the time, would you be able to deflect the incoming attack? Would you be able to riposte back a returning attack. A Long bow states that you need 2 hands to use. But when your not firing the bow, you would have 1 hand free in my opinion. thus even an archer could use the crane feats to deflect an incoming melee attack with these feats. On the other hand, you would not have a free hand if you provoke an attack when firing, so you could not deflect that attack. Am I looking at this correctly?

Crane feats require you to Fight Defensively. Can't fight defensively unless you wield a weapon right? Can't wield a 2 handed weapon (bow) and still have 1 hand free.

At least that's how I understand it.

That's a very good point. If you're just holding the bow at the end of your turn you aren't wielding a weapon any more, so can you still fight defensively?

Actually, I don't know if that stops it... You have to have Improved Unarmed Strike for Crane Style, so you're still "armed" even if you're just holding the bow...


Pathfinder Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Ssalarn wrote:
Actually, I don't know if that stops it... You have to have Improved Unarmed Strike for Crane Style, so you're still "armed" even if you're just holding the bow...

Good point. So as long as you are fighting defensively (-1 with the Crane Feats) for the whole round, it seems that it would work even when holding a weapon that you aren't wielding.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Canthin wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Actually, I don't know if that stops it... You have to have Improved Unarmed Strike for Crane Style, so you're still "armed" even if you're just holding the bow...

Good point. So as long as you are fighting defensively (-1 with the Crane Feats) for the whole round, it seems that it would work even when holding a weapon that you aren't wielding.

My thought as well.

Shadow Lodge

This would be for Society play. A Zen Archer Monk. Taking these feats means your dropping some of the feats you would want for archery. But the Trade off is that when your in trouble in melee, you could deflect a melee attack. Technically speaking a monk can use a foot, elbow, or head butt to strike with. But the feat requires one had free. So I want to make sure on this before I start down this path. I would be taking the penalty to fight defensively with the bow every round. After all a ranged attack could get through or a spell caster with a ray, and that would help ac against such.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber

Keep in mind that if you chose to take your hand off your bow I would rule that you no longer have it readied, though a free action on your turn can fix that. This means if you are 9th level or have the snap shot feat you will not threaten until you re-ready your bow. At that point it becomes a trade off, do I keep the ability to make AoOs with the bow or do I set myself up for a great defense.

Another option is Snake Style and a high sense motive check. This one is good cause it also works vs. touch attacks

Shadow Lodge

Except that you do not keep your hand on the bow and a hand on the string at all times. So why would you rule that? Specially when its a free action to load the bow? If you provoke then I quickly pull out a arrow and fire it. Now I could see if someone readied an action to hit me or fire a spell at me or even an arrow, while I was shooting, as then I would have both hands in use. No where does it say that I can only use snap shot or a similar ability if I have both hands on the bow with a arrow ready to go?

Snake style is an interesting option. Only it depends on my ability to be missed. I am trying to make it so that when I do get hit, I can then deflect it into a miss. Though the 2 Attacks of Opportunity do sound nice when you take final feat. But for a Main Bow person I am thinking its not what I was looking for.


Taenia wrote:

Keep in mind that if you chose to take your hand off your bow I would rule that you no longer have it readied, though a free action on your turn can fix that. This means if you are 9th level or have the snap shot feat you will not threaten until you re-ready your bow. At that point it becomes a trade off, do I keep the ability to make AoOs with the bow or do I set myself up for a great defense.

Another option is Snake Style and a high sense motive check. This one is good cause it also works vs. touch attacks

Well, you only have both hands on a bow while you are actually loading and drawing. Since you fire by letting go of the string, once you fire the arrow, by definition you have a free hand. I would have no problem with an archer shooting defensively and using Crane Style as long as the character wasn't interrupted mid-shot and needed to deflect an attach while firing.

For readied actions involving a bow attack, I would say that the character has an arrow nocked and therefore does not have a hand free for Crane Style. (Note, however, that an archer with unarmed strike would still threaten melee AoOs, because unarmed strike can be a foot, knee, etc.)

Now, AoOs with a bow become an interesting issue: does the character have to have a nocked arrow to make AoOs with a bow? Or does the character draw and fire all at once? That's tricky...I need to research that one a bit.

The Exchange

You also have to keep in mind that combat is all happening simultaneously. Every 6 seconds is broken up into individual actions because otherwise combat would be even more complicated than it already is. Conceptually, you're firing your bow for your full attack while someone is coming up to attack you. I realize this falls more into conceptualization than rules adjudication, but I think it's the best way to justify not being able to deflect an attack with crane style while wielding a bow.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Blackdragondisciple wrote:
This would be for Society play. ***

Then you've got an issue. By strict RAW, you cannot use Crane Style while wielding a bow. That means that the issue Taenia brought up "This means if you are 9th level or have the snap shot feat you will not threaten until you re-ready your bow. At that point it becomes a trade off, do I keep the ability to make AoOs with the bow or do I set myself up for a great defense" is going to apply.

This is where real world logic and game mechanics get all muddled up. To be wielding a bow in game requires two hands. If you aren't using two hands, you aren't "wielding" the bow, and you can't make attacks of opportunity with it via Snap Shot. If you are wielding it, you don't have a free hand for the Crane feats.

I'd personally probably house rule this to allow it in my home games, but you cannot combo the two for PFS.

Liberty's Edge

Unarmed Strikes need not be done with the hands. This should apply in Society play as well.


Pathfinder Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
graywulfe wrote:
Unarmed Strikes need not be done with the hands. This should apply in Society play as well.

Not true for a Monk

Quote:
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

graywulfe wrote:
Unarmed Strikes need not be done with the hands. This should apply in Society play as well.

Which doesn't have any bearing on the issue at hand. Crane Wing specifically requires you to have a hand free, which means you cannot use it while wielding a bow, particularly for PFS play.


How do you NOT have a hand free between turns while wielding a bow? (Barring the feat that allows Attacks of Opportunity with a bow of course.)

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

kyrt-ryder wrote:
How do you NOT have a hand free between turns while wielding a bow? (Barring the feat that allows Attacks of Opportunity with a bow of course.)

Again this is one of those mechanics =/= logic. RAW says you need two hands to wield a bow. If you aren't using two hands, you aren't wielding your bow, so you can't make AoO with it between your turns. You have to choose to either have a hand free for Crane Wing, or be wielding your bow so you can use Snap Shot.

As I said, I would probably house rule this to allow you to do either for my home game, but it is a no go for PFS.


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Blackdragondisciple wrote:
thus even an archer could use the crane feats to deflect an incoming melee attack with these feats.

I would not allow it if I was GMing. It's neither within the spirit or mechanics of the rule. And you could not use it in PFS because PFS runs RAW only.

If I was your GM, I would be irked that you're trying to be cheesy, taking one of the most powerful aspects of the game (archery) and combining it with one of the best feats of the game (which was meant for unarmed monks).

I would only allow it if:
A) You weren't attacking (or were flatfooted); or
B) You attacked with a standard action only.

Sorry, if you're full attacking, both hands are busy.

Remember, you're still firing continuously even though it's not your turn. It's not like when your turn ends, you stop firing and you're just waiting to deflect an incoming attack. The game works like this so that it's easy to play, and we don't have to work out what each combatant does in each second of the round.


Crane Wing wrote:
Benefit: Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you. You expend no action to deflect the attack, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed. An attack so deflected deals no damage to you.


Jason S wrote:
I would not allow it if I was GMing. It's neither within the spirit or mechanics of the rule. And you could not use it in PFS because PFS runs RAW only.

Which thing, in particular?

If he fights defensively as a full round action, then removes a hand from his bow leaving it free, he now qualifies to use Crane Wing until he no longer has a hand free, or the start of his next turn.

He can't combine that with a readied action to shoot (since that would mean he's not yet fighting defensively) nor can he still threaten with snap shot (since he's not using two hands on the bow). So if you were saying he can't threaten with the bow and deflect at the same time, then you're correct.

Jason S wrote:
Remember, you're still firing continuously even though it's not your turn. It's not like when your turn ends, you stop firing and you're just waiting to deflect an incoming attack.

Actually, that's exactly how the game works. If he takes a full-attack, then drops his bow, then at the end of his turn he's not shooting or wielding or anything, he's standing there with empty hands.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

kyrt-ryder wrote:
How do you NOT have a hand free between turns while wielding a bow? (Barring the feat that allows Attacks of Opportunity with a bow of course.)

At the end of your turn, you could easily take a free action to switch from wielding your bow, to holding your bow, and be able to use Crane Style. During that time, you are not wielding your bow and cannot utilize it. At the start of your turn, you could then use another free action to switch from holding your bow to wielding it again. Crane Style isn't necessarily incompatible with archery in general, but it is incompatible with Snap Shot or a Zen Archer's Reflexive Shot ability.

Silver Crusade

The AoO's in question would be unarmed strikes, not an arrow shot, correct?


Brad McDowell wrote:
The AoO's in question would be unarmed strikes, not an arrow shot, correct?

If the character is using Crane Wing, and deflects a melee attack, he can use Crane Riposte to make an AoO against that opponent with anything he threatens with.

If he's not wielding the bow, then he doesn't threaten with it, so he would not be able to take the AoO with the bow.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Brad McDowell wrote:
The AoO's in question would be unarmed strikes, not an arrow shot, correct?

Snap Shot and Reflexive Shot allow you to make attacks of opportunity with a bow. You cannot use those abilities in conjunction with Crane Wing since Crane Wing specifically requires you to have a free hand and a bow is a two handed weapon. Using your unarmed strikes to make attacks of opportunity against adjacent enemies while wielding a bow is just fine.

Shadow Lodge

Possible to get a official ruling on this? Seems its pretty divided on the issue.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I would also like to point out that Deflect arrow is a Zen Archer bonus feat. Why would they put it in there if you can not use it? I have also already seen Zen Archers using a bow use Deflect Arrow. So in that regards, Crane Style would work exactly like that. Except that you fight defensively take the penalty, and then are ready to deflect an arrow, or deflect an incoming attack with either feat. And it should work with snap shot as well, since your not drawing a arrow and getting ready to fire with said feat. Your just able to take an AoO with your bow, hence free action to load your arrow and let the AoO fly. Where I could see it getting muddy, is Crane Riposte, I am thinking that the return attack would have to be Melee. Though I am not 100% sure even on that. Though to be honest, I do not think I Would go with Crane Riposte anyway, as your already losing a lot of feats that really are needed for a Archer build. Specially since now you need Dodge, and to really make it all work, you need Combat Reflexes as well. At this point your nearing 11th level and your missing out on Deadly Aim, Hammer the Gap, and Cluster Shot by taking this path. What you are able to do is be a bit more defensive, not have to worry as much about getting caught up front or surrounded by a group of baddies. Its a bummer that Combat Expertise does not work with Range Weapons. Or that could be added as well. On the other hand, only going so far with a Archer Monk and then changing to Fighter Archer Archetype, would allow you to use the CMB maneuvers associated with Power Attack and Combat Expertise since you get to do those maneuvers with your bow that way. Would take a whole lot of feats though. Ugggh.


Canthin wrote:
Blackdragondisciple wrote:
If one had the three feats together, and a Wizard summons a creature next to you. You are fighting with a bow at the time, would you be able to deflect the incoming attack? Would you be able to riposte back a returning attack. A Long bow states that you need 2 hands to use. But when your not firing the bow, you would have 1 hand free in my opinion. thus even an archer could use the crane feats to deflect an incoming melee attack with these feats. On the other hand, you would not have a free hand if you provoke an attack when firing, so you could not deflect that attack. Am I looking at this correctly?

Crane feats require you to Fight Defensively. Can't fight defensively unless you wield a weapon right? Can't wield a 2 handed weapon (bow) and still have 1 hand free.

At least that's how I understand it.

Fighting Defensively wrote:
You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 to AC until the start of your next turn.

No requirement for wielding a weapon.

Anyone with Improved Unarmed Strike will still threaten adjacent opponents and be able to counter attack with an unarmed strike while using Crane Style.

Most of the combat styles, including Crane Style, are already geared towards monks using unarmed strikes. This describes exactly the OP when not his turn; a monk using unarmed strikes.


Blackdragondisciple wrote:
Possible to get a official ruling on this? Seems its pretty divided on the issue.

Support for 1st edition has been discontinued.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Blackdragondisciple wrote:
Possible to get a official ruling on this? Seems its pretty divided on the issue.
Support for 1st edition has been discontinued.

How silly of Blackdragondisciple to post about a 1st edition issue a mere six years before 2nd edition was due!


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Blackdragondisciple wrote:
Possible to get a official ruling on this? Seems its pretty divided on the issue.
Support for 1st edition has been discontinued.

How silly of Blackdragondisciple to post about a 1st edition issue a mere six years before 2nd edition was due!

Or, possibly, the post that bumped it to the top of the rules forum was deleted.

Somebody appears to be doing that with quite a few old rules posts.

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