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Wow, you kind of made the exact opposite point I was expecting (and I liked the point I was expecting...).
See, my answer wouldn't be, "Magic isn't special in a system with Magic Users, so stop wanting magic to be special." Mine would be, "Magic isn't special in a system with Magic Users, so let's get rid of them so it stays special."
Amen.
This.
There was no healing except for healing potions they found in treasure chests, and most of those potions were actually bottles of orc urine!"
Don't spread it around, or everyone will want bottles of orc urine.
It's special if you're the caster.
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Get rid of magic?
Well yeah, you could take two approaches.
1. No magic using classes allowed. Magic items can still be found. Monsters can still have magical (spell like) abilities. The rare NPC might be a magic user, in the role of 'prophet' or 'mystic.' The entire world would have a 'Beowulf hunting beasts and magical monsters' feel. The 7 tasks of Hercules. (But good golly, I hope you give the characters a way to heal.)
2. No magic in anything, period. Fighters as foot soldiers, Cavaliers as Knights, and Gunslingers as early gun-weilders. You are now playing in Dark Age Europe. You'd pretty much have to toss the bestiary, though.
...but I wouldn't consider either method to be playing Pathfinder anymore. Sure, you're using the Pathfinder system, and maybe taking monsters from the bestiary, but you're basically modding the game to fit a different concept.
Sure, Pathfinder was designed so that you could use the system mechanics in your custom world... but if you have to remove half those mechanics to do it, another system might suite you better.
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It's special if you're the caster.
How so?
Seems like it would be the LEAST special to the guy who can do it.
Depends on the Characters Personality. & how much they care about having the Magic.
I have a Sorcerer Player who views magic as a natural thing and loves to flaunt it. But the Wizard Player treats it as a rare & special thing. So the Sorcerer burns through their spells. The Wizard conserves them.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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Gandolf used magic, but magic was fairly rare in Tolkein's world. There were wizards in Lahknmar but magic items were exceedingly rare there also. In fact in most fantasy worlds there are 'magic users' but little in the way of available magic items.
In a game, much of it depends on whether the player character classes are common or not. You can have wizard player characters, in a world where wizards are exceedingly rare and magic items are equally scarce.
That said, there is a sort of built in assumption that players have access to magic, if you severely limit access to magic, you need to change the nature of some encounters, otherwise things get skewed in a hurry.
...A totally non-caster game lends itself to an all-Rogue party. Since every challenge is getting resolved by the application of skill points, the skill-starved Fighter feels like a fifth wheel unless you're absolutely forced to engage in "fair" fights ... Things like Shadows and Wraiths become "Scooby Doo: The RPG" as everyone runs and runs until the DM decides that the life-hating phantoms that are incapable of fatigue have given up chasing you for reasons beyond your comprehension (like you've kited them into a nearby farming community and have triggered the Wraith-A-Pocalypse).
This is actually a design problem in disguise. If you are eliminating (or even restricting) access to magic as a GM, you should not be sending those kinds of enemies at the PCs. Unless you want them to lose for some storyline reason of course. Things like wraiths are designed assuming some access to magic. A setting where nobody has magic would already be a Wraith-a-pocalypse shortly after the first contact with said wraith because you pretty much need magic to deal with it. Players in a low magic campaign require challenges constructed differently than "Do I have the right magic spell/ item to overcome the monster's DR?".
As to the fighter feeling left out, you can have checks based on STR and CON instead of skills to give that player a way to participate. I'm thinking of the old standby of a locked door; a rogue can pick the lock, a fighter can knock it down. Maybe rolling a boulder up a slope to weigh down a pedestal? Caber tossing against the local chieftain for passage? Drinking contests?
@Dennis Baker: There are a lot Magic Items in Middle Earth. It was more of them being "Mundanely" Crafted. Basically the Crafter either has the Master Craftsman or an alternate method of getting the Crafting Feats.
Though most Items were minor.
Have you played in games without magic users? Does it work well, or does the system show its seams?
The majority of the D&D games I've run (across all editions) have been without magic users. Note that this is not because I banned them or anything, but simply because the majority of my players had no interest in them (generally because vancian magic is tedious, mechanically).
I've had a decent number of psionic classes in 3rd, as well as Warlocks and Binders, but true spellcasters? In 20 years, I've run games for only two:
1) An evil cleric that eventually requested a rebuild to ditch her spells because vancian magic is tedious
2) A hexblade in 3.5 who pretty much never cast any spells anyway (because Vancian magic is tedious)
About 50% of my games have been for 2 PCs, and in almost all of those games, one was a sneaky finesse type and the other was an in your face beatstick type (often an actual Rogue and Fighter, but I've also run for plenty of Barbarians, spell-less Rangers, spell-less Bards, Monks, Ninja, and Martial Adepts in 3.5).
Oh, and I don't use any magic items, either (no, not even Wands of CLW or healing potions). The only thing I did to "help" with that is to raise the natural healing rules a bit--basically up to what Pathfinder allows via the Heal Skill already.
Everything about the game works great this way, except for the CR system. I pretty much just threw it out completely and built my own enemies.
I prefer my own Modular Spell Slots System rather than normal Vancian Casting...
I prefer the BESM d20 Advanced Magic system than normal vancian casting.
This wouldn't happen to be available online would it?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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Magic was less common than in D&D 3.5+, but it wasn't rare.
You are splitting hairs and ridiculously so.
A *few* of the most 'heroic' characters in Middle earth had magic items, many did not. The magic items there were were prized highly and never bought or sold. These characters weren't even run-of the mill heros either, these were the guys who were saving the world and in some cases essentially royalty.
If I placed the number of magic items Frodo and Bilbo encountered in my PF game, my players would consider it exceedingly rare. I can just see it now. "We're 8th level and all we have is a stupid magic short sword, some elven chain, and a cursed ring of invisibility? For the whole party?! And 'orc-bane'? We haven't encountered an orc since 5th level."
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Which, ironically, just means that the GM was obligated to hand out more magical treasure.
No he wasn't. In fact, the GM had much more control about how magical his world should be than he has nowadays. But then, the industry thought it would be a great idea to take this control out of the hands of the GM for pure economical reasons (if the players also can use the books, we'll sell more of them). I can't really blame them for wanting to sell their products but in my opinion that kind of thinking is responsible for much of the changes of the game which rub me the wrong way (Power creep being one of them).
To be honest, I don't buy your premise that magic in D&D never was special because of the existence of the M-U and the Cleric. Because then, you didn't need a high magic world to challenge the party, so the party's M-U could well be the exception than the rule (like Gandalf is part of a tiny group of wizards in LotR). Which also meant that the M-U didn't need to be able "to call fire and lightning down from the sky every gosh darn day" to feel special. And even if he eventually could, it could take years of gameplay to come so far (today, it takes mere months), so there was a long,long way to go.
The good thing being that the d20 system (which Pathfinder still is part of in all but name) is flexible enough to allow you the necessary modifications to play in low-magic worlds as well.
I have to disagree with the TE.
If magic is special is always based on the campaign background.
I remember "Das schwarze Auge/The Dark Eye" (before the campaign switch^^), a german low magic RPG. There you have casters as character classes, but the campaign background clearly says that less then 10% of all people can use magic and of these only 5% get a proper education.
The magic item level was way lower then in PF, mainly because creating a magic item means you have to add some of your own magic permanently to this item.
Also magic was really detailed out in DSA, there was no "scorching ray" it's called "Ignifaxius flameray" and had a special gestic destribte your character have to use to cast it. Also some "special rules" for each spell + backgorund.
Also magic education was really detailed to, with ~ 30 different magic academys for wizards (which really diverse massivly).
Also one funny thing to mention, as DSA use a Manapool magic system without any level limitations for spells (only in effektivness), so a wizard was much more flexible.
If you set the campaign backgorund right, you can also have a "magic is special" feeling with casters as character classes.
The problem with DnD/PF is that it's very generic, so magic is on the same level as "gear" and that is the main problem (with all generic non-campaign related systems).
Also of course you need a group which knows the campaign world and is able to adapt and play in it.
Magic was less common than in D&D 3.5+, but it wasn't rare.You are splitting hairs and ridiculously so.
A *few* of the most 'heroic' characters in Middle earth had magic items, many did not. The magic items there were were prized highly and never bought or sold. These characters weren't even run-of the mill heros either, these were the guys who were saving the world and in some cases essentially royalty.
If I placed the number of magic items Frodo and Bilbo encountered in my PF game, my players would consider it exceedingly rare. I can just see it now. "We're 8th level and all we have is a stupid magic short sword, some elven chain, and a cursed ring of invisibility? For the whole party?! And 'orc-bane'? We haven't encountered an orc since 5th level."
You might want to go back and re-read those stories. The One Ring is not a "cursed ring of invisibility." It isn't even really a ring of invisibility, the wearer actually moves onto another plane, that is why Frodo was so easily spotted and attacked by the Nazgul. It also allowed the wearer, if he knew how, the ability to control the wearers of all the other Rings of Power.
I guess you are also ignoring Gandalf's Sword, the swords that Merry & Pippin were carrying, Aragorn's sword, Boromir's Horn, everyone's cloaks, ropes, the Phial of Galadrial, Sam's box of earth.
The stories are full of magic items, and the party is well equipped.
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Not at all. The way i like it is that the PC caster are one of the few and soon one of the most powerful wielders of magic in the land. What items the party acquires from deep dungeons and ancient tombs constitutes most of what anyone in the kingdom has seen. the DM can make a magic armor and sword available to our melee friends without Bobs Magic Emporium at every city.
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Magic was less common than in D&D 3.5+, but it wasn't rare.You are splitting hairs and ridiculously so.
A *few* of the most 'heroic' characters in Middle earth had magic items, many did not. The magic items there were were prized highly and never bought or sold. These characters weren't even run-of the mill heros either, these were the guys who were saving the world and in some cases essentially royalty.
If I placed the number of magic items Frodo and Bilbo encountered in my PF game, my players would consider it exceedingly rare. I can just see it now. "We're 8th level and all we have is a stupid magic short sword, some elven chain, and a cursed ring of invisibility? For the whole party?! And 'orc-bane'? We haven't encountered an orc since 5th level."
You might want to go back and re-read those stories. The One Ring is not a "cursed ring of invisibility." It isn't even really a ring of invisibility, the wearer actually moves onto another plane, that is why Frodo was so easily spotted and attacked by the Nazgul. It also allowed the wearer, if he knew how, the ability to control the wearers of all the other Rings of Power.
I guess you are also ignoring Gandalf's Sword, the swords that Merry & Pippin were carrying, Aragorn's sword, Boromir's Horn, everyone's cloaks, ropes, the Phial of Galadrial, Sam's box of earth.
The stories are full of magic items, and the party is well equipped.
But not once did they go to Bob's One stop Magic Doohicky Shop with a sack full of coins and go wild buying the things they wanted. They were gifts from allies and the spoils of battle. Sword of ancient elven kings found on enemies is cool, random +1 from Magimart not so much.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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Of course you're no more going to read this than you apparently read the last post. You haven't bothered to dispute my points about what sting and the barrow daggers imply, simply ignoring them.
Mostly because none of this is relevant to the discussion.
Basically you are claiming that its not rare it's only uncommon or some other hair-splitting BS. They're saving the WORLD and the best they can kick up is a few snakey ropes and a nicely made chainmail shirt from when someone was a kid?
Regardless. I really don't care if it's rare or "uncommon" or whatever nit-picky definition you want to give it. It's irrelevant to the discussion. As you say at the top of your post, compared to the game we're discussing, it's pretty damned rare.
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Gandolf used magic, but magic was fairly rare in Tolkein's world. There were wizards in Lahknmar but magic items were exceedingly rare there also. In fact in most fantasy worlds there are 'magic users' but little in the way of available magic items.
In a game, much of it depends on whether the player character classes are common or not. You can have wizard player characters, in a world where wizards are exceedingly rare and magic items are equally scarce.
That said, there is a sort of built in assumption that players have access to magic, if you severely limit access to magic, you need to change the nature of some encounters, otherwise things get skewed in a hurry.
Exactly.
Darksun had magic but magic items were rare.
We also might want to note for the lord of the rings thing. PF and D&D, magic you can study. You can't, per se, "study" magic in Middle Earth. A few of the most ancient elves might have possessed it, but "wizards" there aren't wizards as we know them.
They're literally not of any species of middle earth. They're agents of a divine pantheon. Of course magic is rarer in that world. There is no arcane magic there. There are 7 beings known to use magic that are not gods in middle earth, and 5 of them (The "wizards") are direct servants of the gods and not mortal at that. The other 2 (Tom Bombadil and Galadriel) basically date back to the creation of the earth and Tom even the agents of those that created middle earth don't know how he got there or what he is.
Everyone else that "used" magic in middle earth: Gods each and every one.
So yeah, magic is rarer there. Because arcane magic doesn't exist, divine magic is only handed down to what basically constitutes lawful good outsiders and a single known elf FROM THE BEGINNING OF TIME, and a single being that not even the immortal agents of the gods know where he came from.
i.e. Middle earth= no wizard, no sorcerer, no cleric, no druid, no magus, no summoner.
So how do you explain the prolific amount of magical items that exist in Middle Earth? Tolkien didn't write, Bilbo pulled out Sting, the +2 Orc Bane short sword. Nor did he mention or describe all the use of magic in his writing.
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The way i like it is that the PC caster are one of the few and soon one of the most powerful wielders of magic in the land.Yeah, the problem with this is that every campaign has to start AFTER THE MAGIPOCALYPSE.
"Yeah, we used to have wizards and messiahs running around, but now we live in a crapsack world of ruins and monsters. Being a stupid, crap-covered farmer, I'll view your interest in arts that apparently ended the world as we know it as 'heroic' rather than 'harbinger of the end times.'"
If this concept works for you, then great. However, it runs a little bit contrary to "Old School" D&D which certainly leaned this way thematically, but at the same time required you to train under people more powerful than you to level up.
"Magic sure is rare and special."
"Sure is, now let's get back to Hogwarts and train for level 3."
Not at all, caster, divine and arcane alike, can be and always been rare. There is no need for a past filled with wizards galore. Really that feels like what most fully magic games are. look at golarion, the atlantean, er azlanti, had all sort of magic they are still trying to figure out and reproduce.
Of course you're no more going to read this than you apparently read the last post. You haven't bothered to dispute my points about what sting and the barrow daggers imply, simply ignoring them.Mostly because none of this is relevant to the discussion.
Basically you are claiming that its not rare it's only uncommon or some other hair-splitting BS. They're saving the WORLD and the best they can kick up is a few snakey ropes and a nicely made chainmail shirt from when someone was a kid?
Regardless. I really don't care if it's rare or "uncommon" or whatever nit-picky definition you want to give it. It's irrelevant to the discussion. As you say at the top of your post, compared to the game we're discussing, it's pretty damned rare.
I have to say, nearly 20 magic items for a party of characters whose highest level member (not counting Gandalf because he was an NPC and not even a normal mortal race) was 5th or 6th level seems pretty spot on for the WBL guidelines.
Middle Earth didn't really have "wizards" in the D&D sense. Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron were all Archangels. The Elves had magic crafting skills they learned from back in the day when they lived with God. The dwarves are hinted to have crafted "magicky" stuff ("they crafted mighty spells"), and mithril armor was magic-ish.
Ultimately, you have to figure out that magic items were sufficiently common in Middle Earth for Gandalf to not immediately lose his mind upon discovering that Bilbo had found a magic ring.
Tom B was a (druid?) Wizard. Human warlocks also existed (most were evil).
All elves can cast nature "song": magic (they called not magic though) remember Elrond made the waves of water rush forth at the Nazgul?the Witch-King was already a sorcerer while he was still Dunedain (1/2 elf), before becoming Ringwraith.
Warlocks were like the Witch King. They used Incantations to gain power(s).
