I've got a group running through Rise of the Runelords and they've just killed the goblin boss in Thistletop. Party resources are fairly depleted and it'd be a decent point to rest, from a resource management point of view. However, we haven't killed all of the goblins in the area and there are two dungeon levels below us.
The party might like to rest. I can easily see how they could be interrupted by goblins left in the area or even some of the people downstairs coming up. So maybe resting here isn't a great idea. Maybe they leave and create a camp someplace else... but then wouldn't the dungeon denizens leave when they realize all the goblins are dead?
I'm really just unsure how to thematically make a rest work in a world that ought to be ever-changing. It's a little different in old-school dungeon crawls because they're just dumb monsters that consider a room their home. With this, these are intelligent humanoids with a purpose for being here. Wouldn't they just leave?
Thanks for helping out an old GM who feels rather noobish.
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As goblins, they'd probably run across the dead bodies of their kin, make fun of them, then use their corpses as puppets to mock each until they got bored or hungy, at which point they'd go try to find food while letting their goblin dogs eat the dead.
If there's anything saner or more intelligent than goblins in there they probably have something to protect and will fortify their defenses/be on guard more. Maybe whatever they're protecting is not very movable, like a laboratory or prison or ancient library or something.
So harden the dungeon, make the foes more wily, maybe even have them send out scouting parties to hunt the aggressors.
Treat it as a casualty collection point and triage area. A place that is easily defendable where they can tend to their wounds and refresh their spells. Cleric takes first watch, and wizard takes last watch that way they both get their spells back. Whoever is left rotates throughout the rest cycle keeping guard. An alarm spell would be ideal, but bars cases work too.
I never understood the "rest in a dungeon" idea; it seems like it really relies on GM pity in order to work. When I'm a player, I try not to do it, if at all possible
I treat my NPCs and monsters as if they have the intelligence they are supposed to have. Goblins running across dead goblins would be afraid for their own lives and would likely try to find out if they were in danger. That would give a good chance for the resting PCs to be found by the goblins.
What happens then is up to the GM.
I once had a party try to sleep in a kobold lair after killing about half the kobolds. It was pretty hilarious watching them try to rest while the kobolds kept doing all sorts of things to interrupt their sleep.
I had a similar situation when I ran RotRL. In fact very similar. My group needed a break in the same spot. The group camped in the main entry hall with doors barricaded and watches set. Of course when It became clear to the inhabitants in the lower levels that something was wrong their leader sent some scouts up to survey what was going on. They managed to spot the group. I cannot recall if they got back without being seen or if the group wasted them, but either way the people below were alerted to a threat. IIRC there were several entrances from lower to upper level and the leader of the dungeon led the crew of main enemies up to the main floor in a two pronged attack on the groups camp.
In a massive battle that ended up being much harder than battling these minions separate, the group prevailed. It did require a serious string of luck, including a valiant effort to hold the line alone by the PC sorcerer against two well armored elite fighter enemies and a tough fought battle for the elf PC who was nearly killed in the initial assault by one elf hating minion (and man did that PC have to fight tooth and nail since that minion was dead set on doing whatever it took to finish the job).
In the end I felt like the attack while harder, made the thing seem more real. It also made the exploration of the initial lower level much easier with many of the minions cleared out.
I can easily see how they could be interrupted by goblins left in the area or even some of the people downstairs coming up. So maybe resting here isn't a great idea. Maybe they leave and create a camp someplace else... but then wouldn't the dungeon denizens leave when they realize all the goblins are dead?
I'm really just unsure how to thematically make a rest work in a world that ought to be ever-changing. It's a little different in old-school dungeon crawls because they're just dumb monsters that consider a room their home. With this, these are intelligent humanoids with a purpose for being here. Wouldn't they just leave?
Thanks for helping out an old GM who feels rather noobish.
I guess I don't understand why you can't just have their rest interrupted or have the goblins just leave.
The world ought to be ever-changing and alive, so, isn't the easy answer to do exactly what you think would make the most sense to you? Why are you balking at having them leave?
I know it's a big rule change, but I've taken to making it so that PC's only have to rest/meditate/study an hour to regain spells and per-day abilities, essentially making them per-rest abilities. They still have to sleep 8 hours a day, but this gives me a way to allow them to rest in dungeons without so much suspension of disbelief. I'm still toying with this idea a bit; I'm thinking of putting a limit on how many times they can rest per day, but so far I haven't run into any abuse of the house rule. Also, I'm pretty harsh with random encounters if they try this without any precautions, so I think that's helped curb any tendency to rest after every encounter. Obviously, some people are going to have a problem with this solution, but it's working fairly well for me so far.
P.S. I'm at Thistletop, too! We just crossed over the bridge, and I can't wait for my PC's to get further on. Have fun!
Jesse, I don't know why I would play anything but a full caster under those rules unless I deliberately wanted to play a character with far less power than the full casters.
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The group I'm GMing for ran into other problems there.
After this, the party decided to make a hasty retreat back to town to rest up, stock up on consumable supplies (at my suggestion, they're fairly new players) and come back more prepared. I maneuvered some of the goblins around into more cohesive units so there were fewer, but more substantial fights when they returned. Fortunately, with the addition of a Wand of Mage Armor, a Wand of Shield, and a few scrolls of Mirror Image, they made short work of most of the rest of Thistletop.
They lucked out and cleared the 2nd floor of all enemies before entering the chapel because when they entered there the Yeth hounds feared everyone except for the party ninja/sorcerer... who managed to stand her ground and survive until her allies returned thanks to one of those scrolls of Mirror Image and Shield.
We called it a night after clearing out the second floor completely, and they'll be heading downstairs for the showdown with Nualia next time we meet.
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Jesse, I don't know why I would play anything but a full caster under those rules unless I deliberately wanted to play a character with far less power than the full casters.
Most characters already have far less power than full casters, but you're right. My rule does increase their power even more. If it were part of the regular rule system, it'd be terrible design, but I think it works well with my group of players, and I just thought I'd share it to see if anyone could benefit from it. I talked to them about it beforehand, so that definitely helped. We'll see if it turns into an issue though.
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I think that with some player skill, casters figure out just how much magic to use per encounter. Like say, a few spells at the start, to shift the odds to favor the party. (A strategically placed Grease to flat-foot incoming enemies for example.) Once the situation is under control, don't use any more spells (except cantrips). Resist the temptation to "win faster" with one more spell than strictly necessary.
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Look at it like this:
Exploring a large dungeon, is like scaling a mountain.
It can take days, or weeks, and you will need to rest.
You bring the right gear, based on this knowledge.
Just like you wouldn't leave food scraps about, as they attract predators, you also don't leave bodies about.
You find good shelter points, and know that you need to keep watch for more in the future.
Resting in a dungeon should be something a party always expects to possibly have to do.
Agree with BBT
if the pcs are tidy, make survival checks, block doors etc they should be able to rest. The 'game' relies on resources/resting, so the GM shouldnt try to stop it.
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Agree with BBT
if the pcs are tidy, make survival checks, block doors etc they should be able to rest.
Monster #1: "Say, weren't there ten other monsters here yesterday?"
Monster #2: "Yeah, but since everything's so tidy around here, there must be nothing wrong. There's certainly no need to check behind this barricaded door!"
Monster #1: "Durrr, makes sense to me!"
:-/
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Agree with BBT
if the pcs are tidy, make survival checks, block doors etc they should be able to rest.
Monster #1: "Say, weren't there ten other monsters here yesterday?"
Monster #2: "Yeah, but since everything's so tidy around here, there must be nothing wrong. There's certainly no need to check behind this barricaded door!"
Monster #1: "Durrr, makes sense to me!"
:-/
The monsters don't need to be brain-damaged for this to work.
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Go go gadget extended rope trick! It says the rope "can't be hidden," but I'd say you could still stick it behind a big pile of boxes or some such and probably be safe for the night.
Alternately, as the GM, you could give them a little hidey-hole. Maybe one of the goblins has been stockpiling shinies and has a hidden cache they could squeeze into. Maybe there's a trapdoor spider somewhere that made a convenient hidden nest for them (and maybe they have to kill it to gain access). There are plenty of ways to institute hidden rooms.
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I happen to be playing RotRL right now, but since I don't want spoilers, I'm not sure if I've gotten to the relevant dungeon yet. Anyway, I play a wizard relying for now (level 2) on Point Blank Shot + Acid Splash. It isn't glamorous but it does work all day. "Real spells" like Enlarge Person and Color Spray are for fights that look difficult enough to need a game-changer. It seems to work as resource conservation goes.
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Anyway, I don't think the game was designed with resting in dungeons in mind. Well, not in normal dungeons; megadungeons are a bit of a special case. In a normal dungeon, as soon as you enter, you need to worry about not raising the alarm, because when you do, the smaller, manageable encounters will start banding together into one big army to repel the invaders, which becomes a massive battle you can't handle.
I also believe that normal dungeons tend to be designed to be done in one "push"; a number of encounters that you can individually deal with quite easily, with a tough finishing encounter at the end. But all in all it should be doable without resting in between. A sign of this in published dungeons is loot and treasure with healing potions, conveniently just near the final room with the boss monster...
So yes, resting is important. But you don't do it inside the dungeon; you case the dungeon if possible, rest up before entering, and try to have a hideaway for afterwards. But until you "conquer" the dungeon, it's not a safe place to rest.
Incidentally, I think the "rope can't be hidden" part of Rope Trick was an intentional change vs. 3.x to stop this resting inside the dungeon phenomenon.
Seriously, can anyone tell me why you shouldn't just let the NPCs in the dungeon react as they really would to the PCs retreating? What is the problem here?
If the PCs leave and rest up, and the monsters would set up traps for them to return, then, uh, duh, they set up traps. If they would just abandon the dungeon, then, yeah, again, they abandon the dungeon. What is the problem with this?
So apparently soldiers in the Europe during WW 2 or those in vietnam never slept or ate?
They were in enemy territory constantly and still managed to eat , sleep and poop.
That's what a guard shift and a defensible position is for. It's not any different than pulling watch while traveling in the wilderness except you KNOW there is bad guys close buy and the chances to see something on your guard shift are much more likely.
So apparently soldiers in the Europe during WW 2 or those in vietnam never slept or ate?
If you can find an example where soldiers had a firefight in a building and then went to sleep in the same building, knowing that there were enemy troops still in it, I'm all ears.
Trying to avoid spoilers here... but basically the party has wiped out all of the goblins and all that is left are intelligent humanoids below. The challenge in my mind is that I've got it in my head that the only reason these intelligent humanoids are here is because they recruited a goblin army. Now that the army is dead, if the PCs leave, the NPCs seem like they'd move on.
Someone stated that GM guides really don't provide great mechanisms for figuring out how to adapt some of this stuff. If it was my own adventure, I'm sure I would have had a dozen ideas. But this is an AP and I'm a little worried that I'm going to derail things if I just have these guys wander off. If nothing else, the pacing of treasure just took a hit and would need to be adjusted.
Perhaps what I was really asking is more "what do you do if an AP gets derailed?" Or maybe "are AP written in such a way that they get derailed so easily?"
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Trying to avoid spoilers here... but basically the party has wiped out all of the goblins and all that is left are intelligent humanoids below. The challenge in my mind is that I've got it in my head that the only reason these intelligent humanoids are here is because they recruited a goblin army. Now that the army is dead, if the PCs leave, the NPCs seem like they'd move on.
I just don't see anything wrong with having the NPCs move on, just as you said.
But this is an AP and I'm a little worried that I'm going to derail things if I just have these guys wander off. If nothing else, the pacing of treasure just took a hit and would need to be adjusted.
So...you give them more treasure later? Or give them a bigger reward or something than they expected? Or they just deal with it?
Perhaps what I was really asking is more "what do you do if an AP gets derailed?" Or maybe "are AP written in such a way that they get derailed so easily?"
The latter question is probably a big "yes," but to the former, the answer is simple: you improvise and eventually redirect them back.
I don't know, to me, almost the entire job of the GM is to improvise. If I ran modules (I never have before), I'd probably be thrilled when PCs jumped the rails, since improvising is the best part of GMing.
I tend to look at the motivation behind the NPCs on reactions. In the example of this thread the main NPC is a fanatical psychopath. In addition I see no reason why the NPCs on the lower levels would think the destruction of their goblin pawns would be a reason to flee. Especially if the people who killed them had to retreat before pressing deeper. Even if the group triggered a flight reaction from the other minions, I doubt the main NPC would allow a retreat. I see that NPC forcing a defend this base or die scenario on the minions. Which some of the smarter minions might start to chafe under, making them likely allies to the PCs.
As such if the group left I would simply close up the fort and station a couple more skilled NPCs on the upper level on watch. They could setup traps and be on alert for the return.
Alternatively, the NPCs might send out a scout (there are two good options for scouts depending on how things went in the previous section). Scout could return back and setup an attack on the group near the end of their watch. This is the method I used except the scouts found the group resting in the fort, making the attack much easier to stage for the NPCs.
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As a player who played in the Thisletop dungeon, our GM allowed us to hole up in one of the rooms after several of the party members almost died facing the goblin chieftain by fortifying the doors with some wood that we discovered and keeping a rotating watch during the night. However, there were repercussions for our actions, as we were ambushed by the wizard, the bugbear, and the human fighter during the night. After we killed the bugbear, the fighter and the wizard ran down into the catacombs and regrouped with Nualia. When we eventually got to the bottom of Thisletop, they had been planning for us to come for a full day, and had themselves heavily fortified the room they were in to defend themselves. This almost resulted in a TPK, except that everyone in the party was fully rested, so we had access to almost all of our resources. I think our GM handled the dungeon well by allowing us to rest but also having reasonable repercussions that made the dungeon more difficult as a direct result from resting. If the players need to take some time to gain back abilities and heal some damage, that's fine, but the more time they take to clear a dungeon, the more aware the dungeon's residents should become of them, and there should be an ambush and perhaps some fortifications if time is allowed to them.
Spoilers? I was intentionally vague on the NPCs info and names. Might be wise to spoilers tag anything you detail like races/classes and names.
Well...our party usually finds a room with one exit to hole up in if we are spent. We trap/bar the door, set watches, if somebody has rope trick we do that etc...
Our DM then depending on the nature of the dungeon may or may not interupt our evening. If there is a big bad overlord who is scrying us, we would have issues to deal with for sure. If its a huge crypt full of random mobs that can find us there is a chance of random encounter should something wander to our spot. If its the sort of place where the beasts are contained behind many a closed door and arent intelligent...we coast through the night and move on to the next morning.
Of course our level of fortification and area we choose play a huge roll on the impact of taking a rest. If the opponent is intelligent, and you pick a room thats difficult to enter and sufficiently fortify the doorway, they may be forced to wait you out. You pay for resting by starting the day with a tough encounter, but thats often a fair trade...resources in a dungeon are limited...you were going to fight that mob eventually, why not do it at full power.
In terms of suspension of disbelief is taking a rest behind a well fortified solid stone door any less believable than fighing for 48 hours straigh without stoping for food/water and sleep. Even the folks in the trenches during WWII went to sleep with the enemy just across the way.
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It comes down to a few factors:
- How much damage has the party done to the defenders forces (total headcount). Do the forces in the dungeon send out patrols, and how much can they reinforce their numbers in a day.
- How is the dungeon laid out and how are the defenders positioned? Does once group of defenders frequently communicate with other forces in another part of the dungeon? How often are there shift changes? Does one group cover the other in shifts, are they all supposed to check in with one leader?
- What resources does the party have to cover their tracks - ranger or rogue in the group. In some cases they can camp not too far off from the dungeon if they hide their tracks and post guards.
- How organized and intelligent are the creatures? Their leader?
The question is multi-part because the answer/reaction could end up being the same. The leader of the bad guys may realize that their base has been breached - he can call out for a full on assault, pull back forces and toughen defenses or just bail on the facility (with or without defenders).
One thing that MUST occur - there should be consequences for their actions - if even just a reaction or change by the defenders. If the party pulls away from the dungeon for a full 24 hours as a DM I would:
- Add new traps
- Post new guards in different locations (no element of surprise going forward)
- Shift creature defenders (if possible)
- Reinforce numbers (returning patrols, hunting parties, etc)
- Send out security forces to find and destroy the party - or if too weak, at least recon the party power
- Consider having the BBEG leave
- Any and all of the above
All of the above factors primarily on what resources are left and how much damage the group of PCs have done to the defenders infrastructure on their initial assault.
From my perspective as a DM: I would place more stock in confusion and disinformation - where the party is at, did they leave, did they cover up their tracks/create disinformation/use deception, etc - than using a single gimmick to avoid detection (eg Rope Trick) and hoping it replaces intelligent play. A combination of the two would increase their chances of success but I place more stock in planning and tactics. With a bit of luck this possibly buy them time while taking all the other factors into consideration.
I don't do the "rest area" thing or soft-ball the party with a PC game style rest mode. This is a personal view on the issue. I am wholly ok with proficient and intelligent hiding behind enemy lines - if the players use their heads and are smart about it. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't (and often times something in between). Ultimately if it comes down to survival my players factor in "no spell recovery" in their plans and a possible outcome - that's why they NEVER USE ALL OF THEIR SPELLS IN A GIVEN DAY - EVER.
Keep in mind before running the dungeon: How do different groups communicate (and how often) as this is the most critical component to defenders reacting and mounting a counter offensive or change in tactics (from my suggested list) - this determines reaction/response time. The leader may decide to search for the party en mass (total mobilization) but how long will it take for him to find out about the initial incursion? Where will he send his forces? How many will he send? How long (and afar) will they look?
Anyway, just a few points to consider.
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I did have the Yeth Hound harass them at one point in the night with its baying. I thought about having it harass them continuously, but decided against it. Regardless, I figured Nualia was well aware of their presence and would be sufficiently buffed even if the group was able to silently bypass the trap (which they didn't).
In the end, the Nualia fight was a short fight (I think it was 4 rounds total) and ended with her death, though not without her or her Yeth Hound causing some serious damage first. The exploration of the rest of the level tore up the group pretty hard and the dungeon finally spit them out after they decided to run away from Malfeshnekor.
Good times.
ROPE TRICK
In general if a "dungeon" is large enough to require multiple days to explore/overcome, there should be places where a small party can rest/defend themselves.
Depending on the party level there are many ways to do so. The easiest is to find a place to hide for long enough to heal and restore spells.
One of the best ways to do that is to exploit existing secret doors that may have been found. Presumably if they were secret and the party killed whatever was in the area, or inside the hidden room, then it is STILL secret.
If the party is high enough level they can use magic to create a hiding space. That doesn't necessarily mean extra-dimensional spaces. Using spells like "stone wall" or "stone shape" and minor illusions, the party can create a secret room for their own use.
And, of course, they can also simply barricade and defend existing defensible spaces.
It can also help to set traps which might dissuade searchers from continuing to search.
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So apparently soldiers in the Europe during WW 2 or those in vietnam never slept or ate?If you can find an example where soldiers had a firefight in a building and then went to sleep in the same building, knowing that there were enemy troops still in it, I'm all ears.
How about the same town? This was a regular occurrence in ww2 when fighting "house to house" and, you couldnt be SURE who was in what building, as it wasn't like you could turn the building into a fort and keep every one out. Your force wasn't always that large. Same went for the trenches in ww1 pretty frequent to have the enemy right over there.
1993 Mogadishu, a nearly 24 hour battle no one was prepared for (It was supposed to be an in an out mission) and as night fell the entire unit spread across different parts of the city camping, with wounded and dead waiting for reinforcements, and the enemy knew exactly where everyone was.
Vietnam, firebases were regularly attacked an infiltrated and people slept in those. Or LRRPs missions where the enemy was constantly patrolling looking for them?
Hmm that sounds like an entire century of that happening in warfare.
Going with the "video game rest" analogy.
I have played games where during the video game rest (which I dunno has to be less than 30 seconds) bands of monsters have swept through from off screen to house the party.
Everyone sees the shrine and goes oooh I want my spells and uses per day back so I can be cool and over powered again. Rest area! me first. without totally clearing the area or realize they are being trailed by monsters (which happens more often than one might think)
So even in video games you can get jumped while resting.
In most dungeons, one can find a room which is defensible, and under used.
Heck in my last house (which was 3000 square feet) I can think of that room, with a family of four this room just didnt get used (there were two of them but only one had a closed door)
In the three years I lived there I can only think of but four times I myself even so much as opened the door to look into it. It was used as a spare bed room for visitors on three occasions, for a period of about a week each time, and other than that....vacant.
If there were an intruder in my home, and I knew it, after getting in a tussle with him, and he ran one way and I ran the other, retrieving my rifle, laughably, it would also be the last place I would look for him in the whole house.
When you have a larger dungeon (one would hope bigger than 3000 sq feet) and someone(s) have wrecked up half of it; and you havent laid eyes on that someone yet, how brave are you?
I havent seen it/them, I dunno what it is. Is it still here? Did it leave? Maybe I should leave and take my things with me?
Depending on the nature of the dungeon, you might not have been direct allies with different things in that dungeon that are now dead.
There would also be a BBEG/chief/leader type somewhere, but then he would have to go around to each encounter area to survey damage, collect minions, assess the situation etc etc.
So the dungeon boss has to become aware of what has happened, and then triage, which takes time. He's not going to do that when he thinks the party might still be active in the dungeon, so it also takes time to realize they have either left, or are hiding somewhere. Then the dungeon boss has to interview his left over minions to see if anyone has seen them or know anything about them; more time. Then formulate a plan.
IF this were to happen to me, and heres what I would be thinking:
1) can I find where they are hiding? IF I can I'll attack them with my best, most powerful troops.
2) relocate to an already fought in part of the dungeon, stealthily, most likely close to an exit and hope to ambush them, if I dont win I got an escape route.
3)leave the dungeon entirely, conceal myself outside the dungeon, if I think I can ambush them and win, I do, if not, let them leave, then reoccupy the dungeon once they are gone.
Also #3 allows me to follow them, perhaps they are weaker or less guarded when they are resting elsewhere they think is safe. a camp in the wilderness is easier to assault than a dungeon where they know all they have to defend is a doorway.
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you're setting up a TPK situation. Equally if the reaction is for the BBEG to flee, take off with the McGuffin/kill the hostage whatever thwarts the PC's goals, then you've set up a no win situation.
Ah well, it sucks to be an adventurer.
On the flip side of your argument - the 5 encounter dungeon doesn't always work and can be a bit predictable, boring, played out, etc. The 5 encounter dungeon only makes sense in a meta fashion - and by adhering to that guideline for dungeon design you are eliminating the need for players to - play cautiously, manage their resources and even in a meta sense - danger/risk expectation. "The DM would never throw in a dungeon we couldn't wipe out in one day". Weaksauce at best, meta-gamey and pathetic at its worst.
Overly formulaic/hand-holding dungeon design are akin to expected encounters a day - just piss-poor DM structure to handle poor resource management no expected planing (or requiring the need plan) on the part of the players.
To me the attraction of the 5 encounter dungeon is the ease or writing the damn thing, that doesn't make it the only way to go, and sometimes it doesn't make sense to the story. There should be a trade off on story/plausibility/reasonable expectation of force and balance. Using a limited encounter dungeon to facilitate the latter is admitting failure as a DM. Failure to manage your CR bank, and a failure of the imagination to challenge the PCs with the level appropriate resources given to the DM - which are way too low in PFRPG in any case.
I don't expect PCs to attack intact, fully manned fortifications and expect to wipe everyone out in one fell swoop or to hide/camp on inside. They should take it apart piecemeal. These are dungeon bases we are talking about here - disparate groups/creatures held together by a strong leader - doesn't exactly require the actions of a SEAL team to take them out. Half the time they didn't even make the facility and while it's being used by them and there is some familiarity with it, there is no direct design support to facilitate the exact function they are looking for or need. They use crappy communication, borrowed fortifications and oftentimes the parties involved (not the PCs, the monsters) don't like each other or do not work as a cohesive team. The have finite resources and while they are on their home turf the PCs should have the element of surprise for the initial (and most damaging) part of the foray into their base.
It also doesn't hurt if the PCs can find a hook or exploit to ensure their success/maximize enemy casualties. Not everything needs to be balanced or expected encounters up front - there a many factors that can change an unassailable fortification into a very doable scenario if the situation and variables permit. Counting on limited encounters as a safeguard is the worst way to plan a scenario and does break immersion once players "get it". IMO, they should never "get it" when it comes to what to expect. This applies to expected encounters per day, not using wandering/random encounters, players always assuming CR appropriate encounters or even the "he would never hit us right now, while we are at our weakest" considerations". These things should not be in the PCs thought process - if they are, then there was a failure at DMing at one point of the story.
These scenarios do not need to be a cakewalks, but they do not need be as difficult as launching Operation Overlord.
Just for context...
My dad was in combat in the Korean War and the Vietnam War.
My brother was in the navy during the first Iraq war.
Both of them said the same thing about resting in combat. And what they said is fairly problematical from a Pathfinder rules perspective.
"A soldier learns to sleep through just about anything".
In other words, according to both of them, they learned how to sleep on planes, in jeeps, on ship, in foxholes or on the tarmac concrete if necessary.
They learned to function on bits of sleep gathered over several hours. If they stopped for thirty minutes, they slept.
Pathfinder's rules mandate for "uninterrupted rest" is completely at odds with everything actual soldiers have told me about actual combat.
My dad had photos of fighter pilots sleeping on the wings of their airplanes between missions. WHILE the airplane was being serviced by their ground crew.
From a PC point of view:
We find a dungeon entrance, for whatever reason, decide to go inside. meet some resistance, win.
Every thing we do from that point on is a decision to stay in the dungeon or not.
Did we know what we were getting into when we entered? dude we got jumped in the first room, this is obviously occupied by beasties.
IF we decide to venture further, every time we finish an encounter, there is the option (usually) to go back out. In some cases you could be trapped or lost, but not usually.
Maybe you run in there, reasonably confident you can kick in doors and take em all! Relying on your knowledge dungeoneering and geography, thinking this cave system can't be that big. But then, lo and behold you find the stairs down.... uh oh now what?
I think the sensible plan is to pull out, leave the caves and hide somewhere in the woods. Why? because you can't be sure everyone was home when you showed up.
think about it like this, if you're a robber, and you busted into someone home, you want to get in and out fast, you dont crack open the fridge sand turn on the Tv, you boogie, unless you want to be on 'Cops' tonight...
If someone or something came home, and found their guard dog dead and their home robbed, they aren't going to run through the briars in a 2 mile radius looking for who did it. they WILL however run through their caves to make sure you aren't still there.
Later after you rested, you go back, not assuming the whole first level is still cleared, you have to re-clear it (maybe no one came home, maybe they left again, maybe there are still there) but chances are you will have resources left to penetrate the second level.
The other option is to set up ambush on the entrance. I mean those critters come in and out pretty often don't they? Weeding them out on the way to grocery might be easier than fighting them in their den.
If you get into this really far (three days of fighting) you might run into a situation where you can't return to outside. but maybe the realization of how big this place is should have set in before this became an issue.
Something like the Mines of Moria might be a clue. Going in there on purpose would be a different tactic and preparedness than going in to a 5 room cave.
Bringing and B-team, wouldnt be a bad idea. Hirelings, men-at-arms etc. Your base camp can move forward with you, having a defensible position to fall back to while the main explorers press forward.
this would be something I would do, If it were me.
In my experience a dungeon large enough to require more than one adventuring day to clear it out is large enough to not be comparable to a "house" and is more generally comparable to a "neighborhood."
There are usually factions inside the dungeon, different beasties with different priorites.
One of my favorite dungeon resting tricks was to use illusions or disguises to convince one group of monsters that they were being attacked or insulted by another group so that they turned on each other. Then we could rest while they settled scores.
Of course that sort of thing requires a GM willing to play out a situation instead of metagaming the situation to focus on the party.
This is a case where illusion can really be your friend.
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My PC's tend to find bolt holes, use well hidden rope tricks, or find a relatively safe location in a dungeon to hole up in. On those days they can't, or when they are pressed for time, they suck it up and run on empty. Those are the days I find them actually dipping heavily into the reserves of potions and scrolls.
Fun results:
1) PC's are able to rest, but are trapped.
2) remaining goblins rally behind druid on mainland, and can create problems later,
3) Lower levels are alerted by the commotion and have 8 hours to fortify their positions (and/or send spies to learn about PC's. Enemy familiars are great for this)
As a Dm, all fun situations to exploit and expand upon.
Just for context...
My dad was in combat in the Korean War and the Vietnam War.
My brother was in the navy during the first Iraq war.
Both of them said the same thing about resting in combat. And what they said is fairly problematical from a Pathfinder rules perspective.
"A soldier learns to sleep through just about anything".
In other words, according to both of them, they learned how to sleep on planes, in jeeps, on ship, in foxholes or on the tarmac concrete if necessary.
They learned to function on bits of sleep gathered over several hours. If they stopped for thirty minutes, they slept.
Pathfinder's rules mandate for "uninterrupted rest" is completely at odds with everything actual soldiers have told me about actual combat.
My dad had photos of fighter pilots sleeping on the wings of their airplanes between missions. WHILE the airplane was being serviced by their ground crew.
Well to be fair the first Iraq war was only a few days long.
The endurance feat allows one to sleep in your armor and still get the rest, which is the way I remember sleeping, so I guess we all had the endurance feat.What actual soldiers told you about being in combat is different than having been there. So having spent the time with boots on the ground, I can easily tell you where and when we slept.
It also depends on what your GM states "uninterrupted rest" is.
If you are in the wilderness and wolves attack the campsite for a battle that lasts less than a minute, does that qualify as interrupting your rest?
If ogres follow after the wolves, totally routing your camp and you have to flee for your lives into the darkness, yea...it's reasonable to say your rest is interrupted.
Nothing in the rules states you have to have bedrolls and tents to "rest". So sleeping on the tarmac, or one of my personal favorites was leaning up against a big tree (there was always the worry of getting run over by a tank or a truck moving at night) seems about the same thing adventurers would do.
Did I get 8 hours of sleep int he military? Only on leave, but I'm not a spell caster either, I would consider those "officers". Did officers pull watch? No. Did officers get uninterrupted sleep? You bet.
So, if it came down to a problem with that in an adventuring party, I would say it would be quite easy to deliberately make sure the spell casters DID NOT pull watch, giving them "officer privilege" since the groups NEEDS their spells.
This is also a reason to bring along an entourage if you can, guards, hirelings, flunkies, to run the base camp and provide rest for the adventurers. Only something serious, like a full scale assault would interrupt the "bosses", it also allows for down time for everyone as there are more people.
In small groups this was really difficult to do. 1 up 3 down if not expecting any trouble, 2 up 2 down if in "indian country" and 3 up 1 down if there was a break in fighting but more was expected.
If there are 12 or more of you, the 4 adventurers could sleep all night. It all depends on how you approach things.
However in ANY case unless you party is back in town, and sometimes even then, SOMEONE is pulling watch, so you're saying in NO circumstances does anyone ever get any 8 hour rests, so no one would get back their spells or uses per day while adventuring?
Wether sleeping in the forest, underground or a dungeon, the watch is still necessary and there is a chance to get attacked in the night.