But isn't a 7th level NPC class supposed to be somewhere from 1/2 to 1/4 of a PC class?
Like a 7th level Commoner i equal in combat effectiveness to a level 3-4 Rogue at best.
Well effectiveness isn't the issue really, just that a 7th level commoner has 7 HD and a 3 BAB. so this guy could have up to 42 hp.
IF everyone in Town that's 30-40 years old is in this kind of shape, they aren't getting terrorized by goblins, they'd kick their tails in through their noses.
Which doesn't really leave room for the starting adventuring party, who on average has 8 hp and a 0 BAB. Heck the commoners would kick the PC's tail in too!
As for ORCs, they fight each other too, so even though their natural life span may go beyond 30, their actual life span isn't very long, due to violence, so they don't live long enough to advance far in level, before someone else ambitious kills them in their sleep or a drunken stupor. Such is the life of a CE monster.
Commoner Vs. a Rogue.
The rogue isn't going to have more feats than the commoner. a wash.
the rogue will have more skills than the commoner by far.
The rogue will likely be better equipped than the farmer.The rogue will have a +2 BAB. (hopefully) better stats and around 20 hp.
The commoner has twice the HP still and holds the upper hand with BAB in a toe to toe fight.
In a goblin raid, chances are the commoner is still going to do better than the rogue as far as driving them off.
I mean if you are comparing commoners and rogues of equal level this isn't true, but heck 7th vs. 3-4... HD are going to win out.
What really separates the PCs would be their better stats (usually)
If the commoner has 13,12,11,10,10, 9
The PC will likely have 15,14,13,12,11,10
So let's say that's an elf rogue at 3rd level:
S14 D17 C10 I15 W10 Ch11
His feats are TWF and Weapon Fineese
He's wearing leather armor and has a masterwork rapier and dagger.
His AC is 15 his HP are 15
his twf to hit stat are +5/+5the commoner is Human (the most common)
His stats are
S14 D12 C15 I13 W12 Ch11
adjusted for race and middle age.He has 5 feats. He has enough to have worn armor and carried a shield and weapon when he was conscripted to fight off longshanks once... and survived.
So since he knows the goblins are coming (just like the rogue)
he's wearing leather armor, his shield and his spearHis AC is 15
His attack with his spear is 5
His HP are 49Even at level 3 the rogue isn't better than the commoner at fighting off the goblins.
At level 1 he might as well tend the sheep while the commoner wades off to defend the town!
which brings back the original point, HOW would a commoner get to this level? If it was just age based 1st level adventurers wouldnt have a business!
I have to say that you build much tougher Commoners than I do. And optimize them for combat. My average Commoner is a 0 point build:
the commoner is Human (the most common)
His stats are
S10 D09 C12 I11 W11 Ch10
adjusted for race and middle age.
He has 5 feats. Skill Focus (Craft or Profession), Defiant Luck (always helpful to the Commoner), Alertness, Armor Proficiency Light, Shield Proficiency (He has enough to have worn armor and carried a shield and weapon when he was conscripted to fight off longshanks once... and survived.
So since he knows the goblins are coming (just like the rogue)
he's wearing leather armor, his shield and his club (his lord gave him a spear, but he never got the hang of it.)
His AC is 12
His attack with his club is 3
His HP are 28 (the extra skill is more important than the extra HP)
If I were a Goblin, I'd rather fight the Commoner over the Rogue.
...But isn't a 7th level NPC class supposed to be somewhere from 1/2 to 1/4 of a PC class?
Like a 7th level Commoner i equal in combat effectiveness to a level 3-4 Rogue at best.
Well effectiveness isn't the issue really, just that a 7th level commoner has 7 HD and a 3 BAB. so this guy could have up to 42 hp.
IF everyone in Town that's 30-40 years old is in this kind of shape, they aren't getting terrorized by goblins, they'd kick their tails in through their noses.
Which doesn't really leave room for the starting adventuring party, who on average has 8 hp and a 0 BAB. Heck the commoners would kick the PC's tail in too!
As for ORCs, they fight each other too, so even though their natural life span may go beyond 30, their actual life span isn't very long, due to violence, so they don't live long enough to advance far in level, before someone else ambitious kills them in their sleep or a drunken stupor. Such is the life of a CE monster.
Commoner Vs. a Rogue.
The rogue isn't going to have more feats than the commoner. a wash.
the rogue will have more skills than the commoner by far.
The rogue will likely be better equipped than the farmer.The rogue will have a +2 BAB. (hopefully) better stats and around 20 hp.
The commoner has twice the HP still and holds the upper hand with BAB in a toe to toe fight.
In a goblin raid, chances are the commoner is still going to do better than the rogue as far as driving them off.
I mean if you are comparing commoners and rogues of equal level this isn't true, but heck 7th vs. 3-4... HD are going to win out.
What really separates the PCs would be their better stats (usually)
If the commoner has 13,12,11,10,10, 9
The PC will likely have 15,14,13,12,11,10
So let's say that's an elf rogue at 3rd level:
S14 D17 C10 I15 W10 Ch11
His feats are TWF and Weapon Fineese
He's wearing leather armor and has a masterwork rapier and dagger.
His AC is 15 his HP are 15
his twf to hit
Thats a 7th level commoner, with 5 feats. WHY would he have alertness as a farmer?
As a man who (im a assuming with 7 levels) has been forced into military service at least once, most of his feats would be spent living, working and surviving in harshness (hence toughness, some weapon proficiencies, and endurance.) I dont see how he would develop alertness.If this commoner was say in a big city... goblin raids wouldnt be a concern, maybe local thugs running a racketeering ring in his neighborhood?
As far as point buys, LITERALLY I get guff from multiple threads that if PC's have a 10 point build, thats WAY too low because all the commoners would be more powerful than them!
So which is it? Do commoners have 10-15 point buys or 0 points?
You dont get BOTH (which ever way someone wants to argue)
Most of my PCs are 10-15 point buys (even when they roll they come out 12-18 pts)
So if I have 10 pt buy PCs are the 1st level commoners going to beat them up or not?
Edit: as a 7th level commoner he would already have a lot of skill points in his chosen field, skill focus isn't necessary, and if he had skill focus that would make him more of an expert than a commoner.
They have 3 point buys unless you change it.
We already establishimified this on a previous page.
Rynjin is correct.
Alertness is for catching those Kids and Vagabonds who steal his precious crops.
You're talking about someone who has lived his life on the fringes of society, think about the people in our nations history who made a life out of fighting off assailants with one hand and trying to sow crops with the other. Endurance and Toughness would be the very epitome of these types of people.
Your version of the commoner would be dead. a club? really that's the best he could manage at middle age, living on a farm where hostiles come and attack?
Commoner can use any one simple weapon, Spear is just as easy as club.
Most conscripts of the lowest level (referred to has militia) are stated with shield, shortsword, leather armor. So the army 'might' have taught him shortsword (or might not, spear would do just as well, depending on if he had a feat to spend I suppose.
Of course he might know crossbow instead, but they are quite a bit more expensive (although arguably more useful to a commoner not in war time)
You can hunt with a spear as well as fight goblins.
Think about the difference between city and country folk.
the country folk arent necessarily higher level, but they are a good bit more "rough around the edges"
Arguably, however, a commoner shouldn't have a feat every other level... seems like a bit much, even though RAW doesnt mention it. It was likely meant as a rule for PC classes.
Feats make a huge power difference, as do stats.
If commoners have 0 point buys tho...how does one become and adventurer? Are they just "born" better?
If the commoner gets enough xp by farming or spinning wool to hit 7th level by age 40, just think what levels your average orc should be. Even if they don't live past 30, a typical orc camp would be packed with some fairly tough cookies. 5th level Warrior would be pretty normal.IMC, commoners don't get past about 3rd level without multiclassing into a real NPC class like Warrior, Expert, Yeoman, Professional or Bloke.
Unfortunately the death rate among Orcs is somewhat higher than farmers in civilized areas like the Shire... old farmer Maggott has a lot more time to slowly move up in level...
My commoner was a shopkeeper. :) (As a farmer he would have Skill Focus (Farming, Animal Handling) instead.) He had Alertness to keep an eye on that sneaky Elf and to keep up his negotiating (Sense Motive). A farmer would probably have a different, but a club is much more likely for a shopkeeper, especially if the town frowns upon people fighting with blades.
Most Commoners are 0 points, some are 5 pt, a few are 10 pt or higher (but they tend to be Adepts, Experts, Warriors or PC classes).
And yes "adventurers" are just born better. (The village idiot might be -5 points.)
Your conscript army is better equipped than mine too. The conscript is likely to get a spear, a small wooden shield and padded armor (if his lord is generous). A shield and spear would be much more common.
And most commoners do die if they get into combat with anything beyond an animal (most animals are easily driven off, unless pressured by something).
Sap seems more appropriate I think...
Conscripts would almost entirely be commoners.
Since 1e that's been laid out as shield, leather, shortsword or spear.
It's kind of pointless to send them out naked with a light wooden shield.
Skill focus farming would be overkill for a 7th level farmer, he's not in agribusiness.
Yea a shop keep or a bar/inn keep would have a club, and probably the town crier.
The Continental Army (during the american revolution) was largely made up of commoners.
To be a warrior you would have to drill and train, technically, by the rules, to make commoners into warriors they would need enough experience to gain a second level (commoner 1/warrior 1) that would be enough time to gain that experience through drill. thats a while.
Technically, a "commoner" should really be 0 level. because where did that level 1 warrior come from? Trained since the age of 8?
what is the 7 year old? erm a level 1 commoner.... see what I mean, it's actually a little broken.
commoner really should be that one class (maybe along with aristocrat) that has a 0th level.
Technically, a "commoner" should really be 0 level. because where did that level 1 warrior come from? Trained since the age of 8?what is the 7 year old? erm a level 1 commoner.... see what I mean, it's actually a little broken.
commoner really should be that one class (maybe along with aristocrat) that has a 0th level.
I'd say they are level 0 as kids and become 1st level as they enter their profession, be it Commoner, Warrior, etc. Once upon a time (in previous editions) I remember children being described as half a hit dice. I've always assumed when they "grow up" they gain their full hit dice etc.
having a hard time viewing commoner as a profession, it's more of an existence with a lack of one.
I view Commoners as the basic of the basic. Such as Slaves or Servants. The actual Farmer might be Commoner3/Warrior2 with his servants/slaves being Commoner1 to Commoner3.
A farmer COULD be an expert. But I picture experts doing or making something... like a smith, or a craftsman.
A farmer COULD be an expert. But I picture experts doing or making something... like a smith, or a craftsman.
Farmers most certainly are Experts. Farmhands, not so much.
having a hard time viewing commoner as a profession, it's more of an existence with a lack of one.
Talk to your typical medieval serf and tell me about his profession. Sod busting farmer is the typical answer. Run on tradition with not much training / knowledge required. If you have yeomanry, they are probably experts and knowledgable about farming. Common farmhands / labor working for them, not so much. Laborers, dock hands, etc. Commoners. No deep knowledge or expertise required. Just strong backs and a willingness to work. That's life for a lot of people in a typical fantasy world. That's life for some people in our world.
*edit* Not everybody has the ability, desire, opportunity or education to move beyong Commoner. They just do what they have to to make ends meet.
I expect there is quite a few lvl 15 commoners running around.
It is all those people who invented a working infinite money scheme. Ultimately all those resources make the able to do whatever they want, without having to spend time actually learning any significant abilities themselves.
which brings back the original point, HOW would a commoner get to this level?
By overcoming challenges! SKR posited that surviving a year farming is all in all a CR2 encounter in his theory about peasants. (Btw this has the side effect that they stop leveling for survival at CL8 as then CR2 encounters stop giving xp. So by this advancement theory a com15 has to have had a few CR3+ encounters, i.e. must have led an interesting life.)
Or do you only award xp for monsters killed ?
Do the CR2 Encounters stop giving XP in Pathfinder?
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A commoner could gain xp merely by surviving the trials of being a coommoner! Taking the rural farmer as an example, even the most "routine" of profession checks could mean life or death for his family, a natural one could mean his entire crop fails! No, he may not need 10 ranks plus skill focus in Profession: Farmer to bring in an average crop, but consider negative modifiers: E.g. There is a drought, he gets -2 (or more) to his rolls. A plague could mean a series of fortitude saves to survive. Even a scratch could kill him (no antibiotics in this world!) So not all challenges involve bashing a monster over the head with a skillet!
Do the CR2 Encounters stop giving XP in Pathfinder?
Huh, looks like this is a relic of 3.5, although they advise againts bothering with APL -10 encounters.
Each monster, trap, and obstacle awards a set amount of XP, as determined by its CR, regardless of the level of the party in relation to the challenge, although you should never bother awarding XP for challenges that have a CR of 10 or more lower than the APL.
...so SKR needs to adjust his Theory about Peasants for PF!
But imho all the better. Commoners keep advancing (sloooowly) until they die of old age...
which brings back the original point, HOW would a commoner get to this level?
Again by overcoming challenges and gaining story awards:
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game characters advance in level by defeating monsters, overcoming challenges, and completing adventures. Each monster, trap, and obstacle awards a set amount of XP, as determined by its CR.
...
Pure roleplaying encounters generally have a CR equal to the average level of the party.
...
Story Awards: Feel free to award Story Awards when players conclude a major storyline or make an important accomplishment. These awards should be worth double the amount of experience points for a CR equal to the APL. Particularly long or difficult story arcs might award even more, at your discretion as GM.
Yeoman & Bloke?
I replaced all the NPC classes with PC-equivalent classes, on the basis that a level should be equal to a level. So a 5th level cobbler should be able to craft magic shoes because a 5th level wizard who happened to be a cobbler could also craft magic shoes. Except the cobbler could make *better* shoes. And an 8th level Bedouin or Apache tribesman should be able to survive comfortably in the wild like a Ranger.
Which gives us:
The Yeoman
The Professional
The Merchant
The Noble
The Bloke
These were all done for 3.5 so will need some tweaking for strict PF compatibility and balance. The Bloke is unfinished and unsatisfying. The Yeoman and Noble are the only ones likely to see any use on adventures.
I tend to rework the Item Creation Feats to allow a Normal Crafter to take them based on their Character Level. Ironically, every Item has something besides Spellcraft usable to craft them so I just increased the Spellcraft DC by 5 and then added in the rule for substituting the Spell Slots for Spells for +2 DC to crafting. Or they can instead take a +5 DC in exchange for saving the slot.
I simply remove the need for Master Craftsman. I instead make Master Craftsman a +2(+4) Feat for Craft & Profession Skills.