Thoughts on Snows of Summer *Spoilers!*

[motteditor]

Not sure if threads like this are OK, since this is the first AP I'm getting in on from the start, but wanted to talk about the mod as I'm reading through it.

So far -- and I just got to the end of Act 2 -- I'm really enjoying it.

The intro material was great; I really want the whole thing right NOW. And the art's gorgeous, IMO.

I really like the advancement track they give us as well. I've only run Savage Tide, which was a bit of a different beast in its format, and Kingmaker, which was too sandboxy to do this, but as someone who doesn't really use XP, this makes my job easier.

Which this mod does a lot of. Each new area gives me the rules I need to deal with the snow, so I don't have to constantly go look them up.

I also like that it's so straight-forward, without feeling railroady. The players don't have to sit there and say "what do we do next?" The trail's literally there in the snow. I don't know, maybe that would feel a little too easy at a table, but at least in the PBP format (which is where I'm running it), I really like that.

Some nice traps among the encounters, and I like the inclusion of the haunt and the whole scene with Thora.

I really like the reward at the end of Act 2. I think players will love the boost they get and it's going to make them want to hold on to these characters. They get a nice bonus by being there from the start (of course, I may have to think about what to do if replacements need to come in, but I can worry about that later).

More specifics:

I think the only thing I don't like is that there's nothing they can do to save the Black Rider.

That's the type of thing we're usually warned against in design, and I can see the players being like "why isn't he being healed?" I'll probably find some way to tweak that -- since the PCs are only second level at this point, the Black Rider can have some magical icy poison draining his Con -- but that seems like a relatively minor quibble.

Really looking forward to reading the rest.

[Othniel Edden]

Reading it now. Trying to think of ways I can foreshadow the town in my kingmaker campaign right now so if I get the chance to run this my players remember that this occurred, so that I can tie things together. (I should also tie in Carrion Crown and Wrath of the Righteous) Given the number of fey it could even thematically help set things up in Kingmaker.

[Neil Spicer]

motteditor wrote:

So far -- and I just got to the end of Act 2 -- I'm really enjoying it.

Great!

motteditor wrote:

More specifics:

Spoiler:

That's the type of thing we're usually warned against in design, and I can see the players being like "why isn't he being healed?" I'll probably find some way to tweak that -- since the PCs are only second level at this point, the Black Rider can have some magical icy poison draining his Con -- but that seems like a relatively minor quibble.

Some thoughts:

Spoiler:

Sometimes, it's okay for the GM to use a fiat-style ruling like that to enhance the story. But, if you want the specifics behind it, I was very much thinking along the same path you've gone down. Not so much icy poison that's draining him, but some mythic level witchcraft that's eating away at him. Probably something Elvanna hit him with. That's what I'd propose. Additionally, the Black Rider ultimately can't be saved, because he realizes he has to sacrifice himself in order to reactivate the keys to Baba Yaga's hut. Elvanna undid their power and only his life's blood (which is pledged to the Old Crone) can awaken them again. It might even be worthwhile to put the PCs on a timer, so that the Black Rider's blood can only temporarily reactivate the keys, because it just relies on a tangential connection to Baba Yaga rather than the same witchcraft employed by her and Elvanna. That could serve as an undercurrent of tension, driving the PCs to both protect the keys and hurry to Whitethrone so they can reclaim the hut and put them to use before the Black Rider's sacrifice expires. In fact, when using the keys, I'd recommend that the Black Rider's spirit appear, hovering above the hut's cauldron with an approving smile or a few words of thanks and encouragement.

motteditor wrote:

Really looking forward to reading the rest.

I am, too!

[Robert G. McCreary]

Spoiler:

The Black Rider is a plot device more than a creature. If he survives, then it's his job to go after Baba Yaga, not the PCs', and the AP ends right there. After all, he's a unique CR 13 creature. At this point, he has a much better chance to succeed than a bunch of 1st-level PCs. That's the whole reason the PCs gain his mantle - there's no one else to do the job, so he passes it on to them.

[motteditor]

Spoiler:

Oh, I can see that. I think if I hadn't participated in Superstar and spent a little more time trying to think like a designer, I probably wouldn't have even noticed/commented on it.

I think I'll likely play up the fact that he has to slit his own throat to reactivate the keys. I think that works better than just saying they're unable to heal him, as it adds to this dark sense of what it means to be a servant of Baba Yaga and could give players a dire feeling about what could await them if they fail! We'll see what happens when my players get there, though. I'm champing at the bit to get started.

[Pendagast]

Spoiler:

I was thinking of having him 'fade away' and his spirit/essence 'settle on the PCs" and then the keys flare up and glow briefly; as a symbol of the mantle passing, rather than the whole gory throat slit thing.

I'm picturing the knight from Indiana Jones... "you have chosen, wisely"

[magnuskn]

Neil Spicer wrote:

Some thoughts: ** spoiler omitted **

My own thoughts on that:

Spoiler:

I'd personally avoid any limited time mechanic like the plague. I've seen way, [b]way[/] too many occasions when players felt that they were on a limited timer and so missed many roleplaying opportunities and just rushed through the content.

[Turin the Mad]

Spoiler:

I like Pendagast's take on passing the mantle, although keeping the gory nature of it or something "witchcraft-y" helps to reinforce that this is a Witch thing rather than a Divine thing or a more 'normal' Arcane thing. Sacrificing his life to do this also ends any 'tracking magic' the villainess has on him.

My personal hope is that the entire AP resolves fast in game time. This first chapter should resolve within a week or so. I wonder if the entire thing start to finish resolves before the end of summer 4713 AR? If so, that would feel quite fitting. The longer term ramifications of the 'summer of winter' thing could be another matter, although I imagine Greg Vaughn and/or Adam Daigle will be up to the task.

Note that resolving before the end of summer on Golarion doesn't mean that the amount of in game time that passes is 3 months or less... ;)

EDIT: If anything, a nearly breakneck pace is almost required for this AP given the eminent danger posed by a worldwide Winter! Building up rapport / roleplaying should be easy enough to insert during slogs on snowshoes and any later scenes involving dog sleds, megafauna caravans, ice ship trips, etc. Some groups love the breakneck pace, others like it slow. YMMV I suppose. :)

[Pendagast]

:

Ok to keep gory witch craft there, then he can erode away , skin first exposing muscle and blood, then to a skeleton and then crumble into dust that blows away (like how the Nazi dies when his looks upon the arc of the covenant, or the one who drinks from the wrong cup) the dust then settles on the PCs (so now they are covered in dead guy) and THEN keys surge with a glow, slowly fading.... hmmm?

Oh BTW why is the rider LN? IS that to keep paladins from trying to smite him? lol

[Turin the Mad]

Pendagast:

Spoiler:

More likely that he is code-bound or something, having lived with the 'pact' with the Crone for so long that he cannot bring himself to rebel against Her authority. At least that's my guess.

[Jim Groves]

Alignment discussion:

Spoiler:

I wrote a version of the Riders as a template for the Midgard Bestiary (produced by Adam Daigle). I didn't work on Golarion's versions, but both are swell.

I had my own logic for a lawful alignment, and I do NOT know if that has anything to do with Golarion reason.. but I think it makes sense. Its what I use in my own Golarion campaign. You may or may not like the reasoning in YOURS.

The Riders are intrinsically linked to Time. Time, I associate with Law. It separates the Past, Present, and Future.. It begins at the end of most real world mythological Golden Ages. And Riders separate portions of the 24 Hour Day. Time is uniform, consistent, and linear (unless when warped by magic).

So even though Golarion's Riders are Fey- they're part of structure.

So I call them lawful in my games. :)

[Pendagast]

:

yea but cant he be lawful evil? Why the neutral part I wonder? I guess nothing he does is evil, he just says "11 O clock and here comes baba yoga" but he serves and evil witch crone.... just seems odd, the black rider of the evil witch queen! Mwhahahaaha, with an alignment that would let him be a cleric or erastil! lol

[Turin the Mad]

Pendagast wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

His role in the Witch Queen's 100 year cycle may not involve a lot of Evil foolishness, mayhem and violence as a primary focus. Rather it involves a dedication to spreading the inevitability of the centennial cycle amongst affected lands come Hell or High Water. I suspect that the Riders are 'color coded' according to the three 'facets' of age so integral to Baba Yaga's mythology. Hussie, Mawn, Old Geezer (or equivalent). So [lighter color]/ Black / Grey corresponding accordingly perhaps. I loved Chaosium's twist on Baba Yaga in Horror on the Orient Express. Given Brandon Hodge's involvment in Chapter 5, I fully expect to see some lovingly NASTY touches of CoC's version of Baba Yaga presented in later chapters. Hopefully throughout!

[Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal]

Pendagast, for the sake of the argument, let's say that all hurricane's are really just one Hurricane.
And that Hurricane happens to be sentient, Intelligent, and aware of all the destruction caused by it's frequent passage. It can't not go through areas, it might not even want to not go through areas just for the sake of the people living in them.
The not wanting to stop is what makes the Hurricane Evil. The most the Hurricane will do, is make certain that everyone who pays attention, knows ahead of time that the Hurricane is coming.
In this case, that is the three Rider's task. When they show up, everyone knows Baba Yaga will be coming soon, so they have time to either get out, or put their affairs in order.
Hence LN. Actually, folklorically, there is just as much argument for Fey to be Lawful alignment as there is for them to be Chaotic, given that a lot of the behavior that seems erratic & capricious to mortals is due to them not knowing all the rules the fey are incapable of not abiding by.

[motteditor]

OK, this is not really relevant, but would some kind mod please fix the title of this thread. I don't know how it ended up "Though" instead of "Thoughts"! Thanks, it's much appreciated.

[Adam Daigle]

We go into more detail about the Riders in Irrisen, Land of Eternal Winter, but the short story is that they are chosen by dear Grandmother at some point in their lives to serve as one of the three. Most of them are performing their duty in exchange for something they asked of Baba Yaga. Upon being chosen as a Rider they are transformed into unique fey creatures that are bound to serve. They are LN because they are bound to perform the task they are given with no built-in inclinations to fall to chaos, relish in evil, nor preserve goodness.

[Pendagast]

well THAT would explain it. Thanks for the overview on the alignment decision.

This AP looks like it WON'T disappoint!

[Othniel Edden]

Are Heldren and Waldsby so similarly arranged on purpose?

[BobROE]

Yeah, it's explained in the part of the AP when you get to Waldsby.

I thought the same thing when I just saw the maps.

[Neil Spicer]

Othniel Edden wrote:

Are Heldren and Waldsby so similarly arranged on purpose?

Yes. That was something purposeful Rob and I talked about in development. I wanted the two towns to be eerily, uncannily similar (all the way down to some of the inhabitants)...and yet, strikingly different at the same time, because of the contrast between Irrisen and Taldor...almost like some layer of witchcraft had contrived all that the coincidence. A little something to creep out the players, while also giving them a chance to find something familiar and destiny-driven about their role in the adventure path.

[Trinite]

So basically, the the Rider can be neutral even though he serves an evil being -- just like the Silver Surfer can be good, even though he serves the neutral Galactus.

You know, maybe I'll play up the Baba Yaga = Galactus angle a bit if I ever run this myself. :)

[Evil Midnight Lurker]

Neil Spicer wrote:

Othniel Edden wrote:

Are Heldren and Waldsby so similarly arranged on purpose?

Yes. That was something purposeful Rob and I talked about in development. I wanted the two towns to be eerily, uncannily similar (all the way down to some of the inhabitants)...and yet, strikingly different at the same time, because of the contrast between Irrisen and Taldor...almost like some layer of witchcraft had contrived all that the coincidence. A little something to creep out the players, while also giving them a chance to find something familiar and destiny-driven about their role in the adventure path.

...Is this going to continue through the AP? Will there be similar towns in furthest Iobaria, winter-bound Triaxus, and this-isn't-even-the-same-galactic-supercluster Siberia? All with statues apparently chiseled by the same sculptor, maybe of the same subject?

Because yikes.

[Old Man Fu]

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

Neil Spicer wrote:

Othniel Edden wrote:

Are Heldren and Waldsby so similarly arranged on purpose?

Yes. That was something purposeful Rob and I talked about in development. I wanted the two towns to be eerily, uncannily similar (all the way down to some of the inhabitants)...and yet, strikingly different at the same time, because of the contrast between Irrisen and Taldor...almost like some layer of witchcraft had contrived all that the coincidence. A little something to creep out the players, while also giving them a chance to find something familiar and destiny-driven about their role in the adventure path.

...Is this going to continue through the AP? Will there be similar towns in furthest Iobaria, winter-bound Triaxus, and this-isn't-even-the-same-galactic-supercluster Siberia? All with statues apparently chiseled by the same sculptor, maybe of the same subject?

Because yikes.

Interwoven are these same few strands of destiny, fate, liberation, repetition...

[Fate]

Old Man Fu wrote:

Interwoven are these same few strands of destiny, fate, liberation, repetition...

Stick around.

[Old Man Fu]

Fate wrote:

Old Man Fu wrote:

Interwoven are these same few strands of destiny, fate, liberation, repetition...

Stick around.

That is the plan. Now, where are my noodles?

[GM_Solspiral]

spoiler:

I felt left out

Oh and cool start to th AP Neil.

[Lord English]

Old Man Fu wrote:

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

Neil Spicer wrote:

Othniel Edden wrote:

Are Heldren and Waldsby so similarly arranged on purpose?

Yes. That was something purposeful Rob and I talked about in development. I wanted the two towns to be eerily, uncannily similar (all the way down to some of the inhabitants)...and yet, strikingly different at the same time, because of the contrast between Irrisen and Taldor...almost like some layer of witchcraft had contrived all that the coincidence. A little something to creep out the players, while also giving them a chance to find something familiar and destiny-driven about their role in the adventure path.

...Is this going to continue through the AP? Will there be similar towns in furthest Iobaria, winter-bound Triaxus, and this-isn't-even-the-same-galactic-supercluster Siberia? All with statues apparently chiseled by the same sculptor, maybe of the same subject?

Because yikes.

Interwoven are these same few strands of destiny, fate, liberation, repetition...

YOU ARE ALREADY HERE.

[Old Man Fu]

Lord English wrote:

Old Man Fu wrote:

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

Neil Spicer wrote:

Othniel Edden wrote:

Are Heldren and Waldsby so similarly arranged on purpose?

Yes. That was something purposeful Rob and I talked about in development. I wanted the two towns to be eerily, uncannily similar (all the way down to some of the inhabitants)...and yet, strikingly different at the same time, because of the contrast between Irrisen and Taldor...almost like some layer of witchcraft had contrived all that the coincidence. A little something to creep out the players, while also giving them a chance to find something familiar and destiny-driven about their role in the adventure path.

...Is this going to continue through the AP? Will there be similar towns in furthest Iobaria, winter-bound Triaxus, and this-isn't-even-the-same-galactic-supercluster Siberia? All with statues apparently chiseled by the same sculptor, maybe of the same subject?

Because yikes.

Interwoven are these same few strands of destiny, fate, liberation, repetition...

YOU ARE ALREADY HERE.

So are my noodles!! slurp omnomnom sluuuuurp

[Aelluvia]

Spoiler:

For me I am going to add a bit to his story, and fully develop him. For the group they will each recieve a mark, from him marking them as his chosen, and thus can weild his mantle. Our group tends to play outside the box, so in this case grant certain abilities, like a +2 save vrs cold, etc will accompany the mark, but he will use his life essence for this one last blessing, and should someone, stray from the path a curse will follow -insert evil music here-

[xorial]

Rob McCreary wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Oooohhhh...just like a Green Lantern. :P

[DM Doom]

motteditor wrote:

Not sure if threads like this are OK, since this is the first AP I'm getting in on from the start, but wanted to talk about the mod as I'm reading through it.

So far -- and I just got to the end of Act 2 -- I'm really enjoying it.

The intro material was great; I really want the whole thing right NOW. And the art's gorgeous, IMO.

I really like the advancement track they give us as well. I've only run Savage Tide, which was a bit of a different beast in its format, and Kingmaker, which was too sandboxy to do this, but as someone who doesn't really use XP, this makes my job easier.

Which this mod does a lot of. Each new area gives me the rules I need to deal with the snow, so I don't have to constantly go look them up.

I also like that it's so straight-forward, without feeling railroady. The players don't have to sit there and say "what do we do next?" The trail's literally there in the snow. I don't know, maybe that would feel a little too easy at a table, but at least in the PBP format (which is where I'm running it), I really like that.

Some nice traps among the encounters, and I like the inclusion of the haunt and the whole scene with Thora.

I really like the reward at the end of Act 2. I think players will love the boost they get and it's going to make them want to hold on to these characters. They get a nice bonus by being there from the start (of course, I may have to think about what to do if replacements need to come in, but I can worry about that later).

** spoiler omitted **

Really looking forward to reading the rest.

This is the first time I've been excited about an AP in awhile now. Jade Regent was interesting, but I felt I didn't have access to a good group at the time. The few people I knew locally were already playing it with another group. Shattered Star was... well, let's just say I've left my fondness for Dungeon Crawls in the past for good reason, so it was sort of a non-entity in my Pathfinder AP's. I really want to run this.