Goblin Squad Member
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Suggestion
The latest blog proposes all characters start with ability scores of 10 +/- Racial Modifiers.
There are good reasons for this but it also takes much of the fun out of character creation.
Here is a compromise suggestion:
1. Start with 10 .
2. Add and subtract racial modifiers.
3. Allow the player to add (not subtract) several ( say 2?? ) points to make a minor adjustment such as compensate for a racial negative. Possibly make the maximum for any score 12 to avoid increasing scores already increased by a racial modifier.
Thoughts ?
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Goblin Squad Member
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After some thought on the ability score situation, I think I like that everyone starts at 10 + racial mods. It means that character creation isn't just when you are first going through the initial creation wizard, but it is actually the first few weeks of playing your character. As you gain exp and build your own experiences in game, your actions are creating your characters starting class and attributes. It also means racial modifiers matter. That -2 to STR will be much harder to buy off for a Halfling fighter, but if you do manage to build up to 18 it will be that much more impressive. The +2 to CON will make it much easier for Dwarves to get better Hit Points and resistances to damage or poisons, giving a bigger benefit than if you could just more cheaply buy CON points.
Since the attributes are just prerequisites for abilities then your first actions sculpt your character with more detail than using points to buy attributes. It also means you won't be penalized if you find you like melee combat more than spell casting, but you spent your points on int so now your are stuck or have to re-roll.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would be ok with some sort of point buy system at first, to allow some lee way. I see this as deterrence to one race == one class. MMO players are min/maxers by default, and the tendency is going to be to roll the race whose starting stats most benefit the build you are planning (at least initially). So you end up with most fighters being half orc, most rangers being elves, or however it lies. Even a small amount of point buy means players don't feel as pinned into a race at creation.
I tested for another MMO a few years ago, and at one point they patched in racial bonuses. They were small, and would mean nothing at max level, but still you saw almost all new character rolls fit into a small set of race/class combos, for that one point of this or that it alloted.
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Goblin Squad Member
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After some thought on the ability score situation, I think I like that everyone starts at 10 + racial mods. It means that character creation isn't just when you are first going through the initial creation wizard, but it is actually the first few weeks of playing your character. As you gain exp and build your own experiences in game, your actions are creating your characters starting class and attributes. It also means racial modifiers matter. That -2 to STR will be much harder to buy off for a Halfling fighter, but if you do manage to build up to 18 it will be that much more impressive. The +2 to CON will make it much easier for Dwarves to get better Hit Points and resistances to damage or poisons, giving a bigger benefit than if you could just more cheaply buy CON points.
Since the attributes are just prerequisites for abilities then your first actions sculpt your character with more detail than using points to buy attributes. It also means you won't be penalized if you find you like melee combat more than spell casting, but you spent your points on int so now your are stuck or have to re-roll.
Agree with this 100%. The whole game hopefully will be a giant character creator that just goes on and on and on...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Im actually ok with standardised starting stats. Regardless of age, the characters are in effect new adventurers since we all start out as commoners (I think this was mentioned previously although I could be wrong).
Also keep in mind that Humans should get a +2 bonus that they can allocate where they want so they should still be a popular choice.
My only concern is potentially having uber characters that maxed out all base stats by training all possible skills. I dont know how much impact the stats will have on gameplay beyond training prerequisites and minimum gear requirements. There was talk of them affecting resistances, but not sure if thats still in the new framework.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My only concern is potentially having uber characters that maxed out all base stats by training all possible skills.
Since it will take approx. 2.5 years to reach "level 20" in one class, If someone take 17 years to max out every skill, then I think they deserve to have an uber character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really don't see a need for this.
Anything that defines your character mechanically should be earned in the game.
This is one of those "just one more" suggestions, and these suggestions should never be fulfilled. Unless your player-base is asking for "just one more" or "just a little more" of everything, you are doing your job wrong. We should be able to see the cake of 'ultimate power', but only reach far enough scrape off a little frosting.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Yeah I think starting with the 10+racial is fine.
I could see the benefit of having *traits* like the region you are from, etc that differentiate you character in some way, maybe by giving small bonuses to skills if/once you get them or maybe even decrease XP costs for certain skills or something.
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Goblin Squad Member
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After some thought on the ability score situation, I think I like that everyone starts at 10 + racial mods. It means that character creation isn't just when you are first going through the initial creation wizard, but it is actually the first few weeks of playing your character. As you gain exp and build your own experiences in game, your actions are creating your characters starting class and attributes. It also means racial modifiers matter. That -2 to STR will be much harder to buy off for a Halfling fighter, but if you do manage to build up to 18 it will be that much more impressive. The +2 to CON will make it much easier for Dwarves to get better Hit Points and resistances to damage or poisons, giving a bigger benefit than if you could just more cheaply buy CON points.
Since the attributes are just prerequisites for abilities then your first actions sculpt your character with more detail than using points to buy attributes. It also means you won't be penalized if you find you like melee combat more than spell casting, but you spent your points on int so now your are stuck or have to re-roll.
This is how I am seeing the design, and I like it.
Additionally, the suggestions I've seen all deal with numbers. I would much rather keep it as is (10 + racial mods, on-going creation), and have more interesting story/lore related options. Regional traits will be one part of that. But we could go even further. The new Ultimate Campaign book will have a bunch of ways to do this, use those. =)
Let character creation be about making an interesting character within the world, not a matter of fiddling with numbers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I could see the benefit of having *traits* like the region you are from...I wonder if that's what Ryan had in mind when he announced the Regional Trait Packs...
Whether he had then or not, it may be what he has in mind now ;-)
'traits' could be as simple as counting as having higher stats for the purpose of unlocking specific skills, though that pushes towards stereotypes just as racial traits might.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I could see the benefit of having *traits* like the region you are from...I wonder if that's what Ryan had in mind when he announced the Regional Trait Packs...Whether he had then or not, it may be what he has in mind now ;-)
'traits' could be as simple as counting as having higher stats for the purpose of unlocking specific skills, though that pushes towards stereotypes just as racial traits might.
In Living Greyhawk regional traits gave you minor skill bonuses to suggest a background in certain skills due to where you grew up. They were more for role play character than anything else.
The way it could work in PFO is you already have the first level of medals in some skill path relevant to your region (like cold weather survival if your from the far north).
I suppose part of the reason for my original suggestion is the feeling that not everyone is born equal ... as a personal example, when writing modules for Living Greyhawk my descriptive and combat stuff was well regarded but my dialogue kinda sucked, so I recruited a friend for the dialogue because she was a natural at it. With practice my dialogue writing skills may have improved but I doubt I ever could produce the witty characterful exchanges she just churned out naturally.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I could see the benefit of having *traits* like the region you are from...I wonder if that's what Ryan had in mind when he announced the Regional Trait Packs...Whether he had then or not, it may be what he has in mind now ;-)
'traits' could be as simple as counting as having higher stats for the purpose of unlocking specific skills, though that pushes towards stereotypes just as racial traits might.
OK - some typical pathfinder Regional traits from some of the specific regions mentioned in the KS (taken from the Player Companion):
Andoran Freed Slave (Regional): You were either born or sold
into slavery, but were freed by Andoren abolitionists. Your
strong will helped you persevere in captivity, and gave
you strength to start again from nothing in your new life
in Andoran. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Will saves.
Cheliax Secret Revolutionary (Regional): You seek to return
Cheliax to its heyday before the rise of the House of the
Thrune. You have trained yourself to resist any questioning
or torture should you ever be caught. You gain a +1 trait
bonus on Will saves against mind-affecting effects, and on
Fortitude saves against drugs or poisons.
Galt Inspiring Speaker (Regional): You have learned the
arts of oratory, and know how to speak to crowds to rile
them up or to calm them down. You gain a +1 trait bonus
on Bluff and Diplomacy checks when addressing crowds
of 10 people or more.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Suggestion: buy starting feats/gear at "char-gen shop"
why: Because many expect and want to start at "level 1" and stat out our character before starting play. Because regional and background traits logically belong before arriving in river kingdoms. Because different backgrounds should give access to different options.
how: Bascially letting characters start with a few hours worth of XP, and giving them the option to spend xp and money during character generation. For most that would be identical to the selection offered by the trainers and general store found in the first 5 minutes of play, but different races and special background (regional, title, alliance) traits could change the selection (clothing, gear, feats) available in the 'char gen' shop. If my background is a Ulfen raider I should arrive in the game dressed (and trained) differently from if my background is an Absalom courtesan.
Buying feats and gear in the 'char gen shop' would allow us to enter the world 'fully dressed' before making the first impression, which might be important to some.
I see no downside: If you don't like it, just skip it and arrive with your xp and money intact. Since npc trainers and shops already exist in starter towns, there is no balance change or extra design needed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
how: Bascially letting characters start with a few hours worth of XP, and giving them the option to spend xp and money during character generation. For most that would be identical to the selection offered by the trainers and general store found in the first 5 minutes of play, but different races and special background (regional, title, alliance) traits could change the selection (clothing, gear, feats) available in the 'char gen' shop. If my background is a Ulfen raider I should arrive in the game dressed (and trained) differently from if my background is an Absalom courtesan.
If this game starts out anything like EVE, you won't need any training. There should be some 'civilian'(term EVE uses) gear that does not have any skill requirements, you get from early mission rewards. A special background should be nothing more than a few visual customization options, and different 'civilan' gear(like a bow instead of a sword). Just because you give something to everybody, isn't justification of no downside.
I don't want to see any training, not matter how basic, happen before the character enters the world. Everyone should enter the world on the same page, just with different(not superior) starting gear/looks. Only what happens, after your character is created should matter. Making your character should be a minimal effort, basically picking a body and face, then you select one of the free backgrounds, or buy another, to get your starting gear, pick the city you want to start in, then you are in the game. Now that you are in the game, you are also in the 'advanced' character creator, you go unlock all the visual customization you want and visit specialized characters to change your look.
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Goblin Squad Member
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how: Bascially letting characters start with a few hours worth of XP, and giving them the option to spend xp and money during character generation. For most that would be identical to the selection offered by the trainers and general store found in the first 5 minutes of play, but different races and special background (regional, title, alliance) traits could change the selection (clothing, gear, feats) available in the 'char gen' shop. If my background is a Ulfen raider I should arrive in the game dressed (and trained) differently from if my background is an Absalom courtesan.
If this game starts out anything like EVE, you won't need any training. There should be some 'civilian'(term EVE uses) gear that does not have any skill requirements, you get from early mission rewards. A special background should be nothing more than a few visual customization options, and different 'civilan' gear(like a bow instead of a sword). Just because you give something to everybody, isn't justification of no downside.
I don't want to see any training, not matter how basic, happen before the character enters the world. Everyone should enter the world on the same page, just with different(not superior) starting gear/looks. Only what happens, after your character is created should matter. Making your character should be a minimal effort, basically picking a body and face, then you select one of the free backgrounds, or buy another, to get your starting gear, pick the city you want to start in, then you are in the game. Now that you are in the game, you are also in the 'advanced' character creator, you go unlock all the visual customization you want and visit specialized characters to change your look.
I wasn't advocating any pre-training or feats.
The suggestion was a limited very very minor point buy(I like the "half points" suggestion above) would have minimal or probably no effect in-game but allow players to feel more like they "owned" the new character.
Either 1 or 2 points, that cannot be stacked with racial modifiers, with no more than half a point to be allocated to any one stat, would not make any real difference other than making creation more fun and interesting.
I do agree that it would make character creation more complicated if your target is the WoW/Evony/Mafia-Wars/Farm-Town sort of casual player.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Once again I will state my preference for variation of attributes at creation and the associated boost to application of skills based on those attributes.
The only argument against it appears to be that a character is then locked into something. Most people will be familiar with this concept from PnP. If someone does get it wrong then they can start another character which will advance in their new chosen path (but with favourable attribute) just as quickly as their previous character would have.
This means that there will be more characters per player rather than the one (Or two if you have Destinies Twin). I think this would lead to a richer environment.
As set out I would guess most people would spend a day or so training each archetype to 4-5th level, why not? If the top end skills take weeks or months to train who cares if you are a week or two behind to level 20. The downside (as I see it) is that everyone will be able to do everything (to a moderate degree). I think that is a bit silly. I understood the GW wanted to avoid that.
Ultimately every character can get to exactly the same level of ability in every skill as every other character can. I want to make a meaningful choice when I start my character. I want it to be smarter and less charismatic than average or stronger and more poorly than average or what ever.
I want one 20 fighter/ 20 mage to be different than the next 20 fighter /20 mage. Maybe one is quicker and smarter (to a moderate degree in each) and one is stronger and of average intelligence limiting their maximum effectiveness as a mage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was thinking of choices in character history that would affect attributes in character creation, but I think the racial modifiers are enough.
@Maedhros
There will be a lot skills at least to customize your character. When you hit "peak"(2.5 years) you can stop straining your character and during that 2.5 years you can make your character exactly the way you want him to be and spot those intelligence and strength scores you want your character to have, although it's a "shame" that other players can go on making their character more uniform in what comes to all the skills they have learned.
I see people dipping into other skill trees to take advantage of things like Ranger, for bow use. Monk for speed or dodge ability, Rogue for stealth, Cleric for light heal. So by the time they hit their mid teens they will be very diverse. Oh sure if two characters just trained along the Fighter and Wizard trees they would be alike, but honestly I see the allure of other classes making most players individuals that aren't like most other players as they adventure and gain xp used to train skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When you are anguishing over the potential for ultimate uniformity among player characters, consider that for decades nobody, or maybe very few, will actually have mastered every skill and feat, and even when they have done so, they will have every possible one to choose from when filling an action bar slot.
Not even they will slot the same abilities, and if an ability is not slotted it does not relate to how that character plays.
Each character will be practically as unique as each player is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I see people dipping into other skill trees to take advantage of things like Ranger, for bow use. Monk for speed or dodge ability, Rogue for stealth, Cleric for light heal. So by the time they hit their mid teens they will be very diverse. Oh sure if two characters just trained along the Fighter and Wizard trees they would be alike, but honestly I see the allure of other classes making most players individuals that aren't like most other players as they adventure and gain xp used to train skills.
I sincerely hope signature class abilities like clerics channeling positive energy to heal will ONLY be available if no cross class skills are slotted.
Nevertheless the concern that 5 years down the track most characters will be above average in everything is a valid one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The advantage a half-Orc fighter's +str gives is that he can skip some strength-related training and still be otherwise equal to a human fighter.
Consider the implications of that carefully.
In pathfinder, Half-Orcs get a +2 to any one ability score, the same as Humans. If the Human and Half-Orc both took +2 Str, the only differences would be the Orc weapon training and human bonus feat and skills. But due to the difference between PFO and P:RPG, I don't know how those will actually be applied.
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Goblin Squad Member
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how: ...a few hours worth of XP, and giving them the option to spend xp and money during character generation.
I don't want to see any training, not matter how basic, happen before the character enters the world.
And noone would force you. Are you saying you would insist that noone can start out with a backstory? Kickstarter rewards included such things as titles, regional background packages and famous ancestors - all very clearly character customization options that have happened before arriving in the river kingdoms. Or are you saying it's ok to start as a Mendev crusader, as long as you don't carry a real weapon or know which end to grab?
It's not like i'm suggesting a huge change, i'm suggesting the same amount of xp that you would get from not playing the game for a few hours. And spending xp and gold on stuff that is available from some of the first npc's you meet in the game. The whole point is immersion and emotional attachment to the character.
Now that you are in the game, you are also in the 'advanced' character creator, you go unlock all the visual customization you want and visit specialized characters to change your look.
so.. say I want to play a Mwangi witch doctor. Your suggestion seems to be that I should start out as a default Avistani farmer boy clone, but short after arriving in the river kingdoms I should go visit the barbershop to get a free hair and skin transplant, go to the title merchant to unlock my regional or background traits, and go to the hardware store to buy Mwangi clothing? On the way I'd probably also pick up a greatclub of immersion breaking +5 and smack myself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When you are anguishing over the potential for ultimate uniformity among player characters, consider that for decades nobody, or maybe very few, will actually have mastered every skill and feat, and even when they have done so, they will have every possible one to choose from when filling an action bar slot.
Not even they will slot the same abilities, and if an ability is not slotted it does not relate to how that character plays.
Each character will be practically as unique as each player is.
This is something I very dearly hope PFO delivers. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The whole point is immersion and emotional attachment to the character.
If that is the case, and I hope it is, then why the need for mechanical elements? What about a system to help you develop your background in depth? Your name, home region, family, profession before you became an adventurer, significant events, personality, quirks, appearance, etc. All of those things will help one develop an interesting character and none of them have to do with mechanical elements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The whole point is immersion and emotional attachment to the character.If that is the case, and I hope it is, then why the need for mechanical elements? What about a system to help you develop your background in depth? Your name, home region, family, profession before you became an adventurer, significant events, personality, quirks, appearance, etc. All of those things will help one develop an interesting character and none of them have to do with mechanical elements.
Id be very interested in seeing something like that during or after character creation, even if theres absolutely no mechanical benefit. Would help if it provided you with some hints/prompts as well to give new players an idea of whats available in Golarion. Would definately provide more attachment to the character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Id be very interested in seeing something like that during or after character creation, even if theres absolutely no mechanical benefit. Would help if it provided you with some hints/prompts as well to give new players an idea of whats available in Golarion. Would definately provide more attachment to the character.The whole point is immersion and emotional attachment to the character.If that is the case, and I hope it is, then why the need for mechanical elements? What about a system to help you develop your background in depth? Your name, home region, family, profession before you became an adventurer, significant events, personality, quirks, appearance, etc. All of those things will help one develop an interesting character and none of them have to do with mechanical elements.
Well, it isn't as if they didn't have enough creative talent available to them...