Hey everybody, I'm new to DMing and I'm wondering how y'all treat animal companions. Druids' ACs begin with only one trick, for instance. Reading the Druid and Handle Animal sections in the CRB, I'm lead to believe that ACs won't just do whatever the Druid says, let alone everything the Druid wants. The Druid has to "push" the AC to do anything other than this one trick. And if that trick is "attack" then in the event of the AC beating his master's initiative roll, he'd probably just look around like, "Wut?" until the Druid instructs him on what to do.
So I'm wondering how many of you really play AC classes and Handle Animal as worded, because it seems to be pretty common to just hand wave it all, letting the player directly control the AC as if his/her consciousness is evenly distributed between the PC and the AC.
If playing the rules as they're written, that would seem to necessitate 1st level Druids training their AC new tricks on Day 1.
Thoughts?
I think it really should be quite limited what the AC can do in the early game. I've seen a GM allow a level 2 Falconer to send their hawk to go fetch a specific person from miles away and convince that person to send aid (which came in the form of a swarm of stirges,) and I was just like, WHAT? It seemed far too deus ex machina for my tastes, and kind of ruined the immersion and spoiled the encounter for me.
I would encourage you to write down which tricks the animal knows, and enforce the rules on "pushing" the AC to do a trick it doesn't know. If he's trying to do something really unreasonable that goes beyond the normal tricks, make him make a Handle Animal check with a crazy high DC. Of course, since druids can typically use Speak with Animals, that makes it much much easier to get your AC to do something abnormal, but force them to use the Speak with Animals ability if they want to do such. Even so, take the AC's int score into account when determining the level of complexity it can reasonably understand (although err on the side of Rule of Cool.)
In theory, the GM should really be the one controlling the AC's actions, but that's onerous on the GM and makes it less fun for the PC, so I've never seen anyone play that way (and I wouldn't either under normal circumstances,) but if an occasion arises where it makes sense, the GM shouldn't hesitate to take control of the animal companion, IMO.
IIRC ACs move with their Master. And yes they do need to "Push" them to do anything other than the trick. Remember though that they can be trained in other tricks the only difference is that the Druid gets Bonus Tricks on top of the usual amount. So a Wolf AC might have some extra tricks not just that One Trick.
Similar to how a Combat Trained Heavy Horse has a lot of Free Tricks via the Combat Trained Package of Tricks.
Teach an Animal a Trick
You can teach an animal a specific trick with one week of work and a successful Handle Animal check against the indicated DC. An animal with an Intelligence score of 1 can learn a maximum of three tricks, while an animal with an Intelligence score of 2 can learn a maximum of six tricks.
Bonus Tricks
The value given in this column is the total number of “bonus” tricks that the animal knows in addition to any that the druid might choose to teach it (see the Handle Animal skill). These bonus tricks don’t require any training time or Handle Animal checks, and they don’t count against the normal limit of tricks known by the animal. The druid selects these bonus tricks, and once selected, they can’t be changed.
An animal companion starts with at least four tricks they can know. In general it is assumed by most GMs I've played with that the druid has been with their animal companion and has trained them in the four tricks before game play begins, just as it is assumed generally that a fighter has mastered their weapons and a wizard has learned their spells.
No offense intended, Adamantine, but are you sure you're reading the rules correctly? The Handle Animal rules only stipulate the maximum number of tricks an animal companion can learn (based on their Int), not how many any given AC is presumed to begin with. If your AC has Int 2 and your GM allows it to begin with seven tricks, that seems more like a GM gift than RAW.
Anybody else have an opinion on the matter?
No offense intended, Adamantine, but are you sure you're reading the rules correctly? The Handle Animal rules only stipulate the maximum number of tricks an animal companion can learn (based on their Int), not how many any given AC is presumed to begin with. If your AC has Int 2 and your GM allows it to begin with seven tricks, that seems more like a GM gift than RAW.
Anybody else have an opinion on the matter?
Yes, I am sure I am reading the RAW correctly.
That's why I actually POSTED IT.
You can rule as you like. Every druid I have ever played or GM'd who had an animal companion has always (ALWAYS) been assumed to have already taught the known tricks to their animal companion before the game starts.
In fact the notion that a GM would rule that I have to start teaching them tricks once the game begins is a bizarre notion. That's what backstory is for.
Frankly this strikes me as a case of unusual GM control syndrome.
I think AD's suggestion is very reasonable. The only thing I would take into account is the age of the character. If you're playing a character who is 50 years old, I would assume you've had plenty of time to teach your AC any tricks it might need. If you're 19 years old, maybe not.
One issue is that there's no set amount of time between when the PC gains their first level, and when the campaign begins. But I think it's generally assumed that the PCs have had their character level for at least a few months before most campaigns start (although I have heard of campaigns starting at level 0,) so they should have had time to teach their AC a few tricks.
So a Druid AC or Cavalier Mount couldn't even begin with basic tricks to do their function and represent them being with the Druid/Cavalier enough to denote the Bond they share?
So a Druid AC or Cavalier Mount couldn't even begin with basic tricks to do their function and represent them being with the Druid/Cavalier enough to denote the Bond they share?
A druid's bond to his AC is not amazingly strong. He gets a +4 on Handle Animal checks, but doesn't have any sort of mental communication, even just empathic communication.
An AC should not be treated as a familiar - one is just an animal that you've grown close with, the other is an extension of your self.
My druid's backstory included finding her Animal Companion as an abandoned wolf cub and raised him as she also grew up. Most druids I've been GM for have had a very similar backstory for their first level AC.
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I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that a druid has trained their AC with as many tricks as it can learn, and the druid wants to teach them. I consider it an unspoken assumption of the game that the characters have been training and studying their chosen professions/lifestyles (i.e., classes) for quite some time, and a druid would have had more than enough time to fully train their animal.
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So a Druid AC or Cavalier Mount couldn't even begin with basic tricks to do their function and represent them being with the Druid/Cavalier enough to denote the Bond they share?
The assumption is that a druid has spent enough time with their animal companion to teach it the maximum number of tricks. If you don't allow this, you're severely gimping the companion, as it will be completely useless in combat until trained fully!
A Cavalier or Paladin's mount starts out with combat training, which includes the following tricks:
attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel
These are free for a character with any type of bonded mount. If you raise a bonded mount's Int above 2, then they also gain bonus tricks just like a druid animal companion.
My Druids usually have a similar background. Either they find the AC or are given the AC. Though I have also had a few where the AC came to the Druid and lead them down the Druid Path.
@cartmanbeck: Sorry next time I will include my [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags.
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It seems strange to make a druid find their companion in the first session. Do other characters have to spend time buying armor and weapons? It pretty much is the same thing.
The assumption is that a druid has spent enough time with their animal companion to teach it the maximum number of tricks. If you don't allow this, you're severely gimping the companion, as it will be completely useless in combat until trained fully!
I disagree. All ACs begin with at least 1 bonus trick, as long as that trick is Attack, it will be far from useless in combat. Also, the Horse companion, for a Druid, at least, is not assumed to begin play with combat training, as evidenced by that fact that it gets combat training a 4th level. So not all ACs are assumed to know all their tricks at character creation. (I don't see anything in the CRb to suggest that any ACs are assumed to know all their tricks)
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My Druids usually have a similar background. Either they find the AC or are given the AC. Though I have also had a few where the AC came to the Druid and lead them down the Druid Path.
@cartmanbeck: Sorry next time I will include my [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags.
My reply wasn't actually in direct response to you, sorry if it seemed like I was going after you. it was in response to the whole thread, you were just the most recent post.
*waves white flag with "sorry" written on it* :-D
Animal Companions : RAW
Yes, Animal Companions are often best eaten raw. I personally prefer partially frozen RAW, but to each his own. My cousin prefers them roasted, but then he's always been a hot head.
I personally find that a nice semi-frozen wolf or bear goes well with a barrel of red wine. Do keep a barrel or two of white around in case the animal companion turns out to be an ostrich or alligator.
Teach an Animal a Trick: You can teach an animal a specific trick with 1 week of work and a successful Handle Animal check against the indicated DC. An animal with an Intelligence score of 1 can learn a maximum of three tricks, while an animal with an Intelligence score of 2 can learn a maximum of six tricks. Possible tricks (and their associated DCs) include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following.
An AC begins with 6 tricks known based on its int, +1 for a bonus trick.
Thus an AC with int 2 knows 7 tricks.
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Edit: Ultimate Magic, Page 36
Vermin companions follow the same rules as animal companions, advancing their Hit Dice and other abilities per Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics. Vermin companions can be trained as if they were animals using the Handle Animal skill.
Mindless: Vermin companions have no Intelligence score and possess the mindless trait. In spite of this, vermin companions may learn one trick, plus additional bonus tricks as noted on Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics. If a vermin animal companion gains an ability score increase (at 4 Hit Dice, 8 Hit Dice, and so on), the druid can apply this increase to the companion's Intelligence, changing it from — to 1, at which point the companion loses the mindless quality and is able to know up to 3 tricks per point of Intelligence, plus the additional bonus tricks, as per Handle Animal. Vermin companions have no skill points or feats as long as they have the mindless quality.
Trip: Because many vermin have multiple limbs, they are very difficult to trip. As a result, a CMD entry has been included for each, indicating the bonus to CMD such vermin receive against trip attacks.
Just another indicator that by RAW, an Animal Companion can learn more than 1 bonus trick.
Even mindless, vermin companions gain 2 tricks. . .
Animal Companions : RAW
Yes, Animal Companions are often best eaten raw. I personally prefer partially frozen RAW, but to each his own. My cousin prefers them roasted, but then he's always been a hot head.
I personally find that a nice semi-frozen wolf or bear goes well with a barrel of red wine. Do keep a barrel or two of white around in case the animal companion turns out to be an ostrich or alligator.
LOL, well, in point of fact, most of my "retired" Animal companions have been eaten RAW. One was pulverized by a hill giant club, but the other two did, in fact, end up as monster food...
The last druid I played actually had a backstory of having just acquired her animal companion, and so did have to train all the non-bonus tricks, slowly and painfully. Was lots of fun, and was never useless in combat.
My Druids usually have a similar background. Either they find the AC or are given the AC. Though I have also had a few where the AC came to the Druid and lead them down the Druid Path.
@cartmanbeck: Sorry next time I will include my [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags.
My reply wasn't actually in direct response to you, sorry if it seemed like I was going after you. it was in response to the whole thread, you were just the most recent post.
*waves white flag with "sorry" written on it* :-D
Oh it isn't a problem I just wanted you to know I was on your side...
An AC begins with 6 tricks known based on its int, +1 for a bonus trick.
Thus an AC with int 2 knows 7 tricks.
I see where it says that the AC actually know it's bonus tricks and doesn't need to be taught, but I don't see where it says that ACs begin with 6 tricks in your link.
This is why I put my first ability point into intelligence for any AC.
I usually give it an intelligence headband, as soon as I get some extra cash.
Can you even Handle a 3 Int AC? Or do you have to give it a rank in linguistics or have some other way of communicating with it?
I've always taught my AC common as soon as it was able to learn, so it's never come up.
This is why I put my first ability point into intelligence for any AC.
I usually give it an intelligence headband, as soon as I get some extra cash.
Can you even Handle a 3 Int AC? Or do you have to give it a rank in linguistics or have some other way of communicating with it?
I've always taught my AC common as soon as it was able to learn, so it's never come up.
Yeah, you just give it 1 Linguistics rank and it can understand your language. After that, tricks and Handle Animal are irrelevant.
Protip: don't teach it Common, use a more obscure language that you know, so the companion isn't effected by language-dependent spells. You sacrifice some spying capability and probably the ability for your party to talk to it, but since ACs have poor Will saves it's very handy for them to be immune to language-dependent spells. Just don't teach it Druidic or you'll never get to use it, because the AC leaves you immediately afterward!
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Or get it to where your Party all have a Combat Language. Like Aklo or Sylvan. Teach that to the AC.
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No offense intended, Adamantine, but are you sure you're reading the rules correctly? The Handle Animal rules only stipulate the maximum number of tricks an animal companion can learn (based on their Int), not how many any given AC is presumed to begin with. If your AC has Int 2 and your GM allows it to begin with seven tricks, that seems more like a GM gift than RAW.
Anybody else have an opinion on the matter?
All this does is slow the game down. It can be assumed that the druid had the companion for at least a week prior to the start of the adventure. If I was playing and a GM did that, I would just spend the beginning of the adventure training the companion, aka waste everyone else's time due to the ruling. The character didn't necessarily get out of "druid school" that day.
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lc1y
The official answer to all your 'what happens when my AC gets an Int Score of 3+' questions
Unless: You are wondering about PFS play, in which case . . . short version, the AC Cannot learn a language.
Unless: You are wondering about PFS play, in which case . . . short version, the AC Cannot learn a language.
Really? This is a thing?
Unless: You are wondering about PFS play, in which case . . . short version, the AC Cannot learn a language.Really? This is a thing?
IIRC, the slightly longer version is 'yes, it can learn a language, but you still have to use push/handle animal, so you might as well not'.
All this does is slow the game down. It can be assumed that the druid had the companion for at least a week prior to the start of the adventure. If I was playing and a GM did that, I would just spend the beginning of the adventure training the companion, aka waste everyone else's time due to the ruling. The character didn't necessarily get out of "druid school" that day.No offense intended, Adamantine, but are you sure you're reading the rules correctly? The Handle Animal rules only stipulate the maximum number of tricks an animal companion can learn (based on their Int), not how many any given AC is presumed to begin with. If your AC has Int 2 and your GM allows it to begin with seven tricks, that seems more like a GM gift than RAW.
Anybody else have an opinion on the matter?
I’d say AD is correct for any AC the druid, etc starts with. Now if the druid has a tendency to use his ‘companion” to disarm traps the hard way, and is on their 4th Companion this level, then yes, some work with Handle Animal and downtime is called for.
“I tell Trapfinder the 5th to scout down the corridor” DM: ”The wolf looks at you, cocks his head to one side and whines in a confused manner”.
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Yes, I use the Handle Animal as written. I also assume that the a new character didn't summon the AC yesterday. A sub-maximum trick situation generally only comes up when summoning a new AC mid-campaign, and only when the situation doesn't allow down-time. In such situations, endangering an AC is a strategic decision, which in my mind enhances the game.
I think the handle animal skill would help a lot with concerns over the power of druids. Especially for lions.
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That turns into another issue of intentionally mistreating the companions, which should have some divine consequences. That is a whole different thread.
Indeed, that particular "druid" would be waiting a long time for "trapfinder the 5th" to show up.
Oh trust me, this has been suggested several times, when someone pointed out a CoDzilla isn't very good at being a skill monkey, it was suggested the druid just keep sending companions down until the rap either was disarmed or jammed.
Oh trust me, this has been suggested several times, when someone pointed out a CoDzilla isn't very good at being a skill monkey, it was suggested the druid just keep sending companions down until the rap either was disarmed or jammed.
I think the idea is generally to send summons, not your companion.