Improved Natural Attack and Eidolon

[Nuku]

Can a summoner give their Eidolon improved natural Attack feat? Is this PFS legal?

[Hawkwen Agricola]

I don't think Leroy really needs it. - Flinders

[Caderyn]

That feat isnt actually legal for Eidolons, it is legal for animal companions, certain types of rangers.

[Nuku]

It's for the best.

[Hawkwen Agricola]

After looking, I don't really see why not. Animal Companions can have it, and Eidolons can take any feat that it qualifies for.

[Nuku]

Under addtl resources, it says it's illegal unless something -specifically- says it can have it. Nothing, to my knowledge, specifically says 'hey, Eidolons can take this', so they can't.

[Caderyn]

Because The rules for bestiary feats (of which improved natural attack is one) is that the feats are only legal if explicitly granted by another legal source.

For Animal companions INA is explicitly included on the animal companion feat list in the CRB (which counts as the other legal source), for natural weapon rangers its granted by combat style from the APG (another legal source).

For Eidolons however they are never explicitly granted access to INA in any currently existing legal source book, hence the feat isnt legal for an eidolon (much the same as it isnt legal for PC's with natural attacks unless they have 2 levels in natural weapon style ranger).

[Hawkwen Agricola]

Ahh, forgot about the rule of omission.

[EmeraldEmpire]

The additional resources document has the Bestiary as a legal source, which is where Improved Natural Attack comes from.

From PFS Guide to Organized Play, version 4.2:
"Unless noted otherwise in this guide, everything contained in the Core Rulebook and Pathfinder Society Field Guide is legal for Pathfinder Society play."

"Step 5: Feats
Characters select feats according to the guidelines in the Core Rulebook. Certain Core Rulebook feats are not available to Pathfinder Society characters. These include Brew Potion, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring, Leadership, and Scribe Scroll. Neither the craft feats nor the item creation section of the magic items chapter in the Core Rulebook are legal for play. Additionally, except for specific examples cited in this guide or the Pathfinder Society FAQ, crafting of mundane items is not allowed in Pathfinder Society.
Paizo.com/pathfindersociety/additionalResources contains a book-by-book listing of all campaign-legal feat choices beyond the Core Rulebook. Check there before taking any feats from a non-Core Rulebook source."

Page 153 of the Core Rulebook lists Improved Natural Attack as a valid animal companion feat choice.

From page 314 of the Bestiary: "Monster feats
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters,
although some player characters might qualify for them
(particularly Craft Construct)."

From the Organized play additional resources document (Dec 19, 2012):
"Since the core assumption for Pathfinder Society Organized Play is the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide, and the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary,..."

Given the above, I would say Improved Natural Attack is allowed in PFS for PCs, eidolons, and animal companions. The Bestiary is listed as a core rulebook source. While it is difficult to qualify for the Bestiary feats, the introduction to the monster feats section does not completely exclude PCs from taking the monster feats.

Unless there is yet another subsection of rules in PFS of which I am unaware, the combination of Bestiary being considered a core rulebook and the introduction to the feats section logically opens the door for PFS characters and their companions.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Nope. Only if a different source from Bestiary specifically says, Eidolons can take Improved Natural Attack, can they take it.

[Nezzarine Shadowmantle]

Yes, they can. It is PFS legal. Eidolons have natural attacks. Improved natural attack feat is an increase in damage of one type of natural attacks. Which can be taken by anything using natural attacks. Everything EmeraldEmpire said is dead on correct. Please ignore Andrew Christian, apparently he isn't awake yet.

[UllarWarlord]

With that logic, every single Tengu character can also take Improved Natural Attack. Which isn't exactly 'optimal'.

Jussayin'

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Not true for PFS guys.

You need a legal source that specifically says you can. None do.

[Shfish]

Well if we really want to be technical, it says "Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars" ....an eidolon is none of the above...therefore it's open....technically speaking.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Additional resources has to say it is legal for it to be legal. It does not.

Additionally an Eidolon is a class feature so can fall under the PC heading.

Your loophole is not a loophole.

[Brian Lefebvre]

EmeraldEmpire wrote:

Given the above, I would say Improved Natural Attack is allowed in PFS for PCs, eidolons, and animal companions. The Bestiary is listed as a core rulebook source. While it is difficult to qualify for the Bestiary feats, the introduction to the monster feats section does not completely exclude PCs from taking the monster feats.

Unless there is yet another subsection of rules in PFS of which I am unaware, the combination of Bestiary being considered a core rulebook and the introduction to the feats section logically opens the door for PFS characters and their companions.

Being mentioned in the core assumption does not automatically make everything in those books PFS legal. You still need to look at the book's entry on the additional resources page to see what material players can use from those books.

Pathfinder RPG Bestiary
Animal Companions: ankylosaurus, aurochs, brachiosaurus, dire bat,
dire rat, dolphin, elasmosaurus, electric eel, elephant/mastodon, frog,
goblin dog, hyena, monitor lizard, moray eel, octopus, orca, pteranodon,
rhinoceros, roc, squid, stegosaurus, triceratops, and tyrannosaurus;
Familiars: all familiars listed on pages 131–133; Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source; Other: all creatures in this book are legal for polymorph effects (including a druid’s wild shape ability) within the boundaries of each spell or ability’s parameters.

The bolded part says you need a secondary source, other than the bestiary, to open up access to monster feats for PCs and their class features. Animal companions get access from the CRB, natural weapon rangers get it for themselves from the APG. Eidolons have not had a similar mention in another sourcebook, so improved natural attack is not a legal choice for them in PFS at this time.

[Shfish]

So is a companion...and is specifically mentioned. Additional resources are described in two manners: saying what out of the book is banned; or saying what in the book is allowed.

In the bestiary listing it tells you what is allowed with a caveat for certain circumstances. The core assumption as written is those feats are open UNLESS you are a "PCs, animal companions, or familiars without access granted from another source". As I understand it, this allows for summoning to function correctly as with some creatures you have bestiary feats and need to be able to use them. Since summoners have been around for over 2 years now and haven't been called out specifically, then it is legitimate to think the feat improved natural attack and improved natural armor are open for taking. Especially since the eidolon has been clearly separated from almost all rules restrictions/allowances afforded familiars and companions.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Shfish, your assumptions are wrong.

[MrSin]

So, if an eidolon isn't a familiar, an animal companion, or a PC, what is it? Anyways, I'm okay with them taking it. Eidolons are monsters as far as I'm concerned.

[Robert A Matthews]

That entry regarding the beastiary was likely written before APG was out. I think it's safe to assume they cannot take it since it doesn't mention that they can in the Eidolon entry, whereas the animal companion entry specifically says they can.

[Shfish]

Robert A Matthews wrote:

That entry regarding the beastiary was likely written before APG was out. I think it's safe to assume they cannot take it since it doesn't mention that they can in the Eidolon entry, whereas the animal companion entry specifically says they can.

Well if you read their feat entry it says they can take all feats they qualify for...at the right BAB they qualify for it.

[Jebidiah the Dirt Farmer]

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Bestiary
Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source.

Eidolons are considered a summon creature. So, since it isn't a PC, animal companion, or familiar, all of the feats are legal.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

The additional resources for the Bestiary specifically saysa legal source has to specifically legalize a Bestiary feat for use by a player for any aspect of their character.

Any way you try to say an Eidolon gets access to Bestiary feats without a source specifically saying so does not work. If you take it your character is not legal.

[MrSin]

Would it be a silly question to ask why an Eidolon shouldn't be able to take improved natural attack? Seems to be their gig.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Because thats the rules as they exist. If you want to create a good argument for why they should, please see Jiggy`s for getting magical knack unbanned.

I know, i have always hated the "because i said so argument", but thats what i got.

A reason that didnt exist when the rule was made that may make it very difficult to get it changed is the overriding feeling that summoners are broken and that eidolons dont need more power.

[Robert A Matthews]

The answer is because it doesn't specifically grant access as the animal companion entry does.

Animal Companion wrote:

Feats

This is the total number of feats possessed by an animal companion. Animal companions should select their feats from those listed under Animal Feats. Animal companions can select other feats, although they are unable to utilize some feats (such as Martial Weapon Proficiency). Note that animal companions cannot select a feat with a requirement of base attack bonus +1 until they gain their second feat at 3 Hit Dice.

Animal companions can select from the following feats:

Acrobatic, Agile Maneuvers, Armor Proficiency (light, medium, and heavy), Athletic, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Diehard, Dodge, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Overrun, Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Run, Skill Focus, Spring Attack, Stealthy, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus.

Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using. GMs might expand this list to include feats from other sources.

Eidolons wrote:

Feats

This is the total number of feats possessed by an eidolon. Eidolons can select any feat that they qualify for, but they must possess the appropriate appendages to use some feats. Eidolon feats are set once chosen, even if the creature changes when the summoner gains a new level. If, due to changes, the eidolon no longer qualifies for a feat, the feat has no effect until the eidolon once again qualifies for the feat.

Additional Resources wrote:

Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source.

The Eidolons entry doesn't specifically grant access, therefore eidolons cannot take it.

[redward]

Don't Eidolons already get access to improved natural attacks via Evolutions?

[MrSin]

redward wrote:

Don't Eidolons already get access to improved natural attacks via Evolutions?

They do, but its not the feat, its an evolution of its own. Not sure how the feat and evolution work together.