
Adamantine Dragon |
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I constantly see posts on various subjects that say something like "Magic shops ruin the game" or "Nothing is special if you can just order it from a catalog" or "If a PC can just buy an item then they will never appreciate it."
I understand those sentiments. In some ways I sympathize with them.
But I don't agree with them.
The idea that nothing is special if you can order it from a catalog is sort of interesting to me since I know all sorts of special things I could order from catalogs. Things like, Oh, I dunno, a Ferrari? A Rolex? A Lear Jet?
Let's look at weapons and armor. In the real world weapons are primarily guns and knives. Armor is, well, armor. You can buy guns at any price range, and if you want the most reliable, most accurate, most powerful gun possible, you're going to pay a hefty price for it. But you CAN buy it from a catalog. The same is true of body armor. Or electronic devices. Or shoes. Or gloves...
I recently researched the subject of pellet guns. I had no idea that there was a worldwide market for high power, highly accurate pellet guns. There is. You can spend several thousand dollars on a pellet gun if you want to. And that gun is going to be vastly superior to a $200 pellet gun. Or if that's not enough, you can have your pellet gun custom made for as much as you want to spend.
The point is that having access to nice things doesn't mean that nice things aren't "special." It just means you have access to them.
I am an amateur astronomer. There are custom made telescopes on the market for amateur astronomers that run close to $100,000 or even more. Do you think that the people who buy those telescopes think they are any less amazing because they didn't have to raid an enemy astronomer's lair and haul it off as booty?
In a world where magic exists and people can LEARN to be wizards through simple study and time, there will be magic items made for purchase. And they will be sold like any other commodity.
A game where magic shops allow PCs to buy desirable items that fit their concept is a game where players are empowered and concepts are achievable. A game where players are at the mercy of a GM who manipulates the world so that certain things are available and certain things are not is a world where players are at the mercy of the GM to achieve their conceptual goals.

BillyGoat |
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Great, now you've given me the idea for "Sadie's Gently-Used Magical Goods".
All items are 10% to 30% off, but there is a 65% + %Discount chance that the item has a minor curse on it, with 01 resulting in a major curse, instead.
By "minor", I mean intermittent function, requirements, or drawbacks that have only modest game impact and the item can always be tossed aside.
By "major", I'm talking opposite effects, delusion, or a severe form of intermittent function/requirement/drawback. Plus, you gotta break the curse to ditch.
Also, I have always loved the idea of the small magical shop. The Emporiums have always seemed a little gauche. But, I accept their role in the game as a means of making sure the characters can find what they really want if loot doesn't provide, and they're willing to travel to a metropolis to find such "big-box" magic item stores.

willmontgomery |
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I think that you are missing two important points:
1) Human psychology makes it inevitable that anything that becomes familiar stops being "special". I think a Ferrari would be pretty special. If I bought one, though, I would start to take it for granted, not because I am a take-it-for-granted type, but because I am human. Plus I would become annoyed when it broke down.
And much more importantly (for what I think you're getting at):
2) I think you are failing to distinguish between "special to the PCs" (who aren't real) and "special to the players" (who are). The imaginary feelings of imaginary people who find a fancy sword are not the reason that I don't believe in magic shoppes. Rather, it is the actual feelings of actual people in the room with me.
Fear/horror is the same way. As a GM, I can threaten the PCs with all kinds of terrifying adversaries -- they might even fail their saves against fear -- but the players might very well just carry on with the encounter. But if I can elicit an emotional response from the _players_, then I am accomplishing something as a storyteller (or a participant in the group storytelling).
To accomplish this with treasure, the item needs to be mysterious and wonderful _to the players_. If the players pick it out from a book, then it's just part of their character build (how they chose to spend their "gold piece points", as opposed to their "skill points" or their "feat points" or their "class level-up points"). Character building can be fun too, but players already have a lot of kinds of "points" to spend on their character builds. I reserve encounters and the corresponding treasure for the unexpected.

BillyGoat |
And why not have magic shops when PC wizards can crank out magic items for half the price anyway?
Either that, or I remind myself that said character doesn't have many feats that actually improve his effectiveness with his actual spells.
But more seriously, aren't there enough threads about item creation? Let's keep on the topic of magic item shop pros/cons, instead of item creation.

MechE_ |
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Good post - I agree with the vast majority of what you said and I'm not going to bother picking and prodding at the few things I think could be different. Instead, I'm going to expand on this a little bit adding in my own perspective.
First, I don't like the idea of ye olde magic shoppe where you can walk in and purchase a +4 holy, XXXX bane XXXXsword. However, I'm not one to deny my players access to such a weapon if they take the appropriate amount of time to search out a specialized shop or smith/crafter who can create such a weapon for them. Will it happen over night, no. Will it happen immediately at level 15, exactly when the Paladin can afford to buy such a weapon? Probably not. However, if the party knows that they are going up against XXXX creature and wants to prepare themselves for it by spending their time acquiring the appropriate gear, more power to them!
My quarrel with ye olde magic shoppe is the "immediate gratification" mindset. We (americans) tend to have an extreme case of the if-I-can't-have-it-now-I-don't-want-it's and this mindset is what bugs more more than anything. So, if a small gnome wizard in my game is searching through the wondrous items listings to try to find a way to become proficient with the medium +2 human bane heavy repeating crossbow that the party just found at the end of the session besides using the "bestow weapon proficiency" spell and finds that a Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone grants proficiency with an "associated weapon", am I going to let him go down to the corner magic shop and pick it up at the very beginning of the next session...? Heck no - the party has yet to see an Ioun stone in the course of the whole campaign - they're a bit rarer in this world, obviously. If, however, he wants to spend the appropriate amount of time searching for someone who may help him, then I would wager that within a reasonable amount of time (a couple of games days, maybe 2 session, etc.), such an item or a crafter to make it could be located.
I personally think that the items the players want should be made available to them, but they shouldn't magically appear at their feet when they want them. Heck, even ordering out of a catalog requires that you wait for shipping - at least overnight, anyways.

gustavo iglesias |
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Your analogy is interesting.
I'd say that magic shops don't make magic items less special. Gold does.
Yes, a ferrari is special even if it is in a catalogue. However, in Monaco, Ferraris aren't special. Everybody has two.
So the problem is not that magic items are sold, the problem is that PC become rich. ;)

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I am an amateur astronomer. There are custom made telescopes on the market for amateur astronomers that run close to $100,000 or even more. Do you think that the people who buy those telescopes think they are any less amazing because they didn't have to raid an enemy astronomer's lair and haul it off as booty?
I remember another amateur astronomer by the name of Clyde Tombaugh, Neils Degrasse Tyson had a visit with his descendants while making his special on the de-Planetisation of Pluto, and his own part in that process. While he was there. (and as it turned out, the Tombaughs gave him the best of hospitality, they showed him the home-made instruments of their famous ancestor which frequently incoporated parts from farm equipment in their construction. No store-bought Celestron was anywhere near as awesome.
I personally remember the days when the 34th street section of Manhattan was known as the "35 MM STRIP" during the hey dey of film photography. While much has been gained in the advancement of digital cameras and I'm a digital shooter myself, there's been a lot lost now that you really can't get home photography equipment any more.

Stazamos |
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I think people also tend to picture a shop fully laden with magic gear, when I don't really think that's the case, just going off the rules for rolling random items. For a hamlet, there are a handful of items, for example; are those in a single store? Maybe. Or maybe random households have them, discovered upon chance, maybe someone will buy it and feed the family for life (well, depends on the item, and how big the family is). Once you get to a metropolis, there are a hundred stores you need to visit to find what you want. This isn't a bulletproof view. Imagine how much a single magic item would make or break a tiny village, for example. Still, I like this approach. Once you get to a metropolis, yes, you have a magic item emporium, but they don't have everything. All the shops combined do.

Adamantine Dragon |
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will, everything you say is within the purview of the GM simply by creating custom magic items that do things you can't find in a catalog. I do that all the time.
I 100% disagree with you on your point #1. I am lucky to be in possession of a particularly sought after telescope. It is just as special and wonderful to me today as it was when I bought it 12 years ago. The images through the thing are simply magical. I am sure I will treasure that scope until I die. I own other things that are equally special and I appreciate them just as much today as when I purchased them. My fly rod. My hunting knife. My fly tying vise. Lots of things.
But let's pretend that you are right and that being in possession of something necessarily, by "human nature" automatically means that thing stops being special.
Well, that applies to your "rare and wondrous" magic items just as much. After a time your players will grow used to them and they will no longer be special no matter how they obtained them.
And finally, this idea that you are appealing to the PLAYERS instead of the player CHARACTERS is interesting. I suppose that I definitely had more of a sense of wonder about this game, oh, 30 years ago when I first started playing. Now that I've had campaigns where we've saved the universe multiple times, using all sorts of the most bizarre and wondrous MacGuffins, I don't think you're going to be able to engender that feeling in ME with your rare and valuable +3 sword, no matter how difficult you make it for my character to get one. In fact, you might have exactly the opposite effect.

BillyGoat |
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1) Human psychology makes it inevitable that anything that becomes familiar stops being "special". I think a Ferrari would be pretty special. If I bought one, though, I would start to take it for granted, not because I am a take-it-for-granted type, but because I am human. Plus I would become annoyed when it broke down.
To use a reference to my own life, my boss has a Shelby Mustang. It's his second shelby. He's as ridiculously in love with it today as he was the day he drove off the lot with the first one. It continues to make him smile, the photos are all over his office. This is even after he bought a 500-series BMW. He owns both of them. He drives both of them. He is frighteningly obsessed with both of them.
My point is, people who are really into something don't really watch it turn mundane.
For the less-invested, sooner or later, the car's a car, no matter how special or rare. And the magic items, whether they show up as loot or are bought from a store, will lose their shine too, if the players aren't the type to love loot. Especially once your players recognize that magic item progression is built into the system.
Or, they're the type that drool over magic items and alchemical oddities for more than half their character creation and they love their shineys the way my boss loves his cars. And they won't care whether they get them by buying them, or by looting the big-bad.
2) I think you are failing to distinguish between "special to the PCs" (who aren't real) and "special to the players" (who are). The imaginary feelings of imaginary people who find a fancy sword are not the reason that I don't believe in magic shoppes. Rather, it is the actual feelings of actual people in the room with me.
Every gaming group is different, but most of my players seem to enjoy the act of shopping for magic items and digging through the books than hoping they find what they're looking for as a random drop. Maybe it's because when it comes to magic item shopping, I roleplay the sequence, so you're negotiating with the vendors, haggling over price, trying to get them to fess up to their "special inventory". And, the players have the control (or at least, the illusion of it). I've never met a situation that wasn't improved by letting the players feel like they're in control.
Random loot is not in their control. Shopping for items looks like it is in their control, and usually is at least partially there. This makes my players happy.
To accomplish this with treasure, the item needs to be mysterious and wonderful _to the players_. If the players pick it out from a book, then it's just part of their character build (how they chose to spend their "gold piece points", as opposed to their "skill points" or their "feat points" or their "class level-up points"). Character building can be fun too, but players already have a lot of kinds of "points" to spend on their character builds. I reserve encounters and the corresponding treasure for the unexpected.
I don't think it's possible for the items to be mysterious or wonderful to the players, since they're stated in fine detail in Ultimate Equipment (or whatever resources you use). There's no way to keep the mystery, except the mystery of "am I going to get something useful, or condensed money?"
Don't get me wrong, my players & I love looting the dragon hoard. It's better odds than the casino. But, to suggest that this introduces any useful mystery seems a bit far-fetched unless you custom-make every item or disregard the wealth-by-level chart.

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Thalandar wrote:And why not have magic shops when PC wizards can crank out magic items for half the price anyway?** spoiler omitted **
But more seriously, aren't there enough threads about item creation? Let's keep on the topic of magic item shop pros/cons, instead of item creation.
Because if players can make items easily then NPCs can, too. If you want to talk about magic item shop pros and cons, you have to look at supply and demand. If the party has a PC wizard, he can create the magic items, underselling the magic shop.
I think you should also look things like modern fashion trends and high society as a base. If the rich and noble can buy items like ring of substance and handy haversacks how would that effect basic life? it would be like boob jobs and face lifts in modern society.
What would be the trendy magic items?

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It depends on the magic shop. If you've got 'Walmart' for magic items then yes, it is probably going to be terrible. If you've got the 'out of the way fifth generation in the same family antique store', where you never know what you'll find then it can be awesome.
Magic items should be special. If you can buy them off the rack... not special. Maybe in a very high magic campaign you could treat many magic items as just 'normal equipment' that even the local baker has... but then you should have more powerful items that can only rarely be found... usually in dangerous lands and forgotten dungeons.

Adamantine Dragon |

There's also this notion that "magic shoppe" means you can walk into any tiny little village and buy anything you like. That's not true by RAW and certainly isn't true in my custom world.
But the larger the village, town or city, the more likely they will have a wide selection of magic items, and in some cases, some stores will actually specialize if there is enough of a market for the item. An "Ian's Ioun Stone Emporium" might well be profitable in a large coastal city that has a million inhabitants and steady trade in multiple directions.
In the highest level campaign I have run so far there was a merchant's guild, and after a certain level the magic shop merchants had developed a means to communicate with each other so that if someone came to one shop looking for an item, but that item was located at a different shop, the first merchant would get a "finder's fee" for directing the customer to the right shop.
At the very highest levels they actually teleported items from place to place on demand for a fee.

Blueluck |

D&D's roots are in a setting where magic items weren't something you could make, they were something you had to find in ancient treasure hordes, hidden in lost dungeons, guarded by evil dragons. Because of that, and other elements like the absence of a wealth-by-level table, magic items were available solely at the whim of the dungeon master.
When assessing the availability of magic items, it's important to note that "Magic shop? Humbug!" was a common sentiment back in the old days as well, when it created an enormous change from the standard.
At that time, the entire game environment was different. For example, feats didn't exist, so not being able to get the weapon you planned your character around probably wasn't a big deal. "How much damage does it do, and can I still use my shield?" were likely the only game mechanic questions surrounding a magic weapon. The same is true for many other "expected" magic items in 3.0-Pathfinder.
With the advent feats in general, and of item creation feats in particular, the game changed quite a bit in the year 2000. Now magic items were priced on a curve, treasure was given out on a curve, and with proper planning, certain items were expected rather than just hoped for. The creation of magic items cost experience points, however, so each was of a very personal cost to the maker.
Pathfinder made magic item creation even easier, in a way, by removing the XP requirement. I think that was a good choice, but now a single wizard or cleric with a couple of well-chosen item creation feats can act as a de-facto magic shop for an entire party. So, one may ask, what's the big deal about having a magic shop?
Pathfinder's official method handling magic item availability is based on community size and random rolls. "This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” Well, perhaps "angry" is an exaggeration, but it's one of the most house-ruled aspects of the game. In the many D&D3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder games I've played, I've never seen a GM outside of an organized league randomly generate all the magic items available for sale in a city.
Also, once a party hits 9th level and has access to Teleport, many GMs throw up their hands and say, "Fine, you flit around the world until you find a +3 cold iron sai." Partially because it makes sense that the party could find or commission such a thing, given their wealth, renown, power, etc. Partially because the GM feels like a jerk if he lets the fighter have the +2 flaming two-handed sword he wanted, but "screws" the monk.
So, "Magic Mart or not" is a big, hairy, $64000 question with a long complicated history, which I've only briefly summarized here.

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Aurora's Whole Realm Catalog is a good look at the Wal-mart distribution idea in a high magic fantasy world, although it wasn't magic items, it was a magic distribution organization. Apply the same logic to magic shops.
I like the idea of having the magic shop as a patron for adventurers-what better source of magic items?

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Thalandar wrote:... items like ring of substance and...This is the second time today I've seen someone reference the "ring of substance."
I am assuming they meant "ring of sustenance" but am I wrong? Is there such a ring?
No your right its sustenance, but it gives me ideas for a new magic item.....

Adamantine Dragon |

It depends on the magic shop. If you've got 'Walmart' for magic items then yes, it is probably going to be terrible. If you've got the 'out of the way fifth generation in the same family antique store', where you never know what you'll find then it can be awesome.
Magic items should be special. If you can buy them off the rack... not special. Maybe in a very high magic campaign you could treat many magic items as just 'normal equipment' that even the local baker has... but then you should have more powerful items that can only rarely be found... usually in dangerous lands and forgotten dungeons.
Why do you continue to assert that it can't be "special" if you buy it? And what's the problem with "Walmart" anyway?
In a world where magic is as easy as going off to wizard school for a few years, or else you just spontaneously erupt with magical power, magic items are going to be available.
To use the Walmart example, why couldn't there be a "Walmart" for magical items which had all your basic low level stuff with some +1 weapons and armor in their special locked glass case, but with potions, elixirs, minor wondrous items, etc. available for a reasonable cost?
How does that "ruin the game?" If you have the money, you can buy cheap magic stuff. If you don't, you can't.
Of course you wouldn't be likely to find a magic Walmart in every tiny little town, but in decently sized cities, why would it be difficult to find a "potion of vanish?" I mean a typical hedge witch can whip one up in an afternoon.

Blueluck |

. . . However, if the party knows that they are going up against XXXX creature and wants to prepare themselves for it by spending their time acquiring the appropriate gear, more power to them!
. . . If, however, he wants to spend the appropriate amount of time searching for someone who may help him, then I would wager that within a reasonable amount of time (a couple of games days, maybe 2 session, etc.), such an item or a crafter to make it could be located.
Ipersonally think that the items the players want should be made available to them, but they shouldn't magically appear at their feet when they want them. . .
You run magic items much the way I do for many campaigns. Essentially, "You get what you find, and what you work for. Give me some story, and I'll give you some magic."

EWHM |
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If you run a simulationist style game, and you have magic item creation rules anywhere near RAW, it is VERY hard to prevent a magic item business from arising. If nothing else, your PCs will invent it and wonder why nobody else had done so before (been there, done that).
Even with 2nd and 1st edition rules where magic item creation was much more difficult, magic items were still bought and sold, just not generally 'to order'. Anyone ever wonder why even in the 1st edition DMG items had a 'gp sale value'?
Yes, that's because somebody bought them. Saying you can sell but never buy magic items is a total gamist construct. To reify that construct into something that makes vague sense in a verisimilitude sense took and takes a lot of work.

Makhno |

There are a number of differences between real-world products and magic items in D&D/PF. Some that might be relevant (making no claims yet, just laying it out for examination):
1. Fashion. This year's Rolex and the Rolex of five years ago (or, if you like, a new Rolex and a Rolex you've had for five years) are not the same in terms of their effects on your social status. This is clearly false for magic items.
And speaking of which...
2. Purpose. Ferraris and Rolexes are purchased for social status. Most people who buy weapons and armor from expensive catalogs do so for similar reasons. On the other hand, the reason you value your +4 furious greataxe is for the damage it lets you do.
3. Degradation. Products in the real world degrade. A new one of similar price is likely to be better than one you've been using for five years. This is totally false for magic items, which can be used continuously for thousands of years with no ill effect (by RAW).
4. Technological advances. This year's Ferrari is packed with features; your old Ferrari might not have the GPS and the iPhone holder and the automatically-contact-a-helicopter-to-rescue-you-from-traffic-jams chip. Conversely, this year's vorpal sword is 100% identical to a vorpal sword from a bygone age (again, by RAW).
The effect that these differences have on the psychological effects of having or not having magic shoppes, I leave up for discussion.
For now, though, I will say, as an extension of point #2, that we purchase expensive products as a way to make ourselves stand out from our social peers. The problem with applying the same logic to PCs is that PCs don't have social peers. No one else is a PC. And if you structure your world such that your PCs do indeed have social peers - after all, someone else has got to be patronizing those magic shoppes - the status of PC is instantly devalued.
Finally, I'd like to point out that custom-made is not the same thing as catalog-ordered. Let's treat those two cases as distinct, please.

BillyGoat |
BillyGoat wrote:Because if players can make items easily then NPCs can, too. If you want to talk about magic item shop pros and cons, you have to look at supply and demand. If the party has a PC wizard, he can create the magic items, underselling the magic shop.Thalandar wrote:And why not have magic shops when PC wizards can crank out magic items for half the price anyway?** spoiler omitted **
But more seriously, aren't there enough threads about item creation? Let's keep on the topic of magic item shop pros/cons, instead of item creation.
Well, that gets back to my point that a wizard given the time to mass produce magic items & compete with the local magic shop is playing a very different game than most. If you have the weeks of downtime, coupled with the thousands of free gold, to produce magical goods for sale, something is going side-ways with your group. Either that, or your playing a game that revolves around competing magical shops, instead of questing to save the day/kingdom/princess/world and kill the dragon/demon/devil while recovering the macguffin (assuming it wasn't the princess).
If your players are motivated by nothing more than gold, then sure, they'll settle into the magic shop business over adventuring, assuming you ignore the rule that says they sell their items for 50% (the same price they make their items for). But, if they're doing that, start awarding them more of their loot as magic items instead of gold, which they sell to the local magic shop for... 50%. All of a sudden, they can't compete so well.
Again, that's assuming your players don't want to play a game where they set up a competing magical shop. And honestly, that's a fun and compelling story, if handled properly, so where's the problem again?
I think you should also look things like modern fashion trends and high society as a base. If the rich and noble can buy items like ring of substance and handy haversacks how would that effect basic life? it would be like boob jobs and face lifts in modern society.
Sure thing, most settings that I've read already do examine the high-life nobles. Crack open the Forgotten Realms or Eberron campaign settings sometime and look at discussions of the wealthy in major cities or the nobles & royalty. Shoot, I think some of the old 3.5 books even had small sub-sections on trendy magic items.
What would be the trendy magic items?
For the record, I don't think they'd trend towards rings of sustenance, there's too much fun in sleeping in and binge-eating when you're filthy rich. Seriously, that's half the point of nobility in medieval times.
On the other hand, a fair number of poison resistance / disease prevention magical items would fly off the shelves and onto the fingers or necks of those rich SOBs. Makes the poison intrigue so much more interesting. After all, the poisoner must have switched out the duchess's necklace before the party!

Adamantine Dragon |

At the same time, you are discussing an internet age and items that are less than the annual average income of most people you know.
It's all relative ciretose. If we want to use an analogy between the real world and the PF world, the PCs in the PF world would be like professional athletes, brilliant entrepreneurs and genius scientists.
Those people make a lot of money. A whole lot of money. So their "yearly income" is quite considerable indeed.
"Most people you know" is pretty much the absolute opposite of the idea behind "heroic PCs".

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Why do you continue to assert that it can't be "special" if you buy it?
Continue? I've only posted on this topic once... and that isn't actually what I said. Rather, what I said was that being able to buy anything you want means that the items are not special... which is just in keeping with the dictionary definition of the term.
And what's the problem with "Walmart" anyway?
Walmart is clearly evil. Yeesh, everyone knows that. :]
To use the Walmart example, why couldn't there be a "Walmart" for magical items which had all your basic low level stuff with some +1 weapons and armor in their special locked glass case, but with potions, elixirs, minor wondrous items, etc. available for a reasonable cost?
Well, setting aside the fact that Walmart has more than just the cheapest items of each type AND enough copies of various items to supply thousands of people every day... think about the logic of it. You are talking about millions of gold pieces worth of equipment. Why wouldn't every thief in the world be descending on this place to clear it out?
How does that "ruin the game?" If you have the money, you can buy cheap magic stuff. If you don't, you can't.
If you could get everything you want by going to the store would YOU risk your life exploring the forgotten tomb of almost certain death? I didn't think so.
Even limiting it to 'cheap' stuff, if every single 'cheap' magic item is available at the local store then you are taking about a ridiculous economy shattering amount of wealth.
If the local magic shop has a CHANCE of having the item you are looking for and the ability to make or order it if it isn't too powerful then that's fine. If they've got thirty of anything and everything that you would ever want to buy that's just ridiculous... and dull. You'd clearly be better off pursuing a career as a magic shop vendor instead of this ridiculous 'adventuring' stuff.

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ciretose wrote:At the same time, you are discussing an internet age and items that are less than the annual average income of most people you know.It's all relative ciretose. If we want to use an analogy between the real world and the PF world, the PCs in the PF world would be like professional athletes, brilliant entrepreneurs and genius scientists.
Those people make a lot of money. A whole lot of money. So their "yearly income" is quite considerable indeed.
"Most people you know" is pretty much the absolute opposite of the idea behind "heroic PCs".
When games I've played got to Teleport level, we generally allow you to try and travel the world and find X item. But until that point, I hold the line at city size.
And even then, wandering around with that much gold...the world is a dangerous place...

BillyGoat |
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There are a number of differences between real-world products and magic items in D&D/PF. Some that might be relevant (making no claims yet, just laying it out for examination):
1. Fashion. This year's Rolex and the Rolex of five years ago (or, if you like, a new Rolex and a Rolex you've had for five years) are not the same in terms of their effects on your social status. This is clearly false for magic items.
Why is it false for magic items?
Examine your rolexes, please. The one from five years ago, with proper maintenance will work exactly as well as this year's model.\
Gimbalt's +1 Ogre Bane Longsword of 1022 has a single fuller running from cross-guard to five inches below the tip. Also, the blade is intentionally left as bar-stock for the first six inches above the cross-guard to allow one to parry a close thrust without dulling the blade. Anyone can see from its fine craftsmanship that this is a must-have weapon for anyone at the Duke's gala Thursday.
On the other hand, the 1016 edition has that dreary old double-fuller, it simply leads to too much ogre blood on the gauntlets. And the sapphires in the pommel scream "new money".
2. Purpose. Ferraris and Rolexes are purchased for social status. Most people who buy weapons and armor from expensive catalogs do so for similar reasons. On the other hand, the reason you value your +4 furious greataxe is for the damage it lets you do.
Yeah, but some people value their expensive cars for their ability to drive like a beast. See my earlier post about my boss's love-affair with Mustangs & Beemers.
3. Degradation. Products in the real world degrade. A new one of similar price is likely to be better than one you've been using for five years. This is totally false for magic items, which can be used continuously for thousands of years with no ill effect (by RAW).
With proper maintenance, most anything can last forever. My parents have furniture and cookware older than I am. Most of it bought out of a catalogue. At the same time, if you never use sunder rules, that's a separate issue. And if you're games honestly last long enough to worry about the practical useful life of magic items, I'm impressed.
4. Technological advances. This year's Ferrari is packed with features; your old Ferrari might not have the GPS and the iPhone holder and the automatically-contact-a-helicopter-to-rescue-you-from-traffic-jams chip. Conversely, this year's vorpal sword is 100% identical to a vorpal sword from a bygone age (again, by RAW).
And this year's Ferrari can drive to and from Wal-mart as well as last year's Ferrari. Also, Ferrari model year, with features is more like comparing the Vivian Whip 2012 (a +2 vorpal human-bane whip) to the Vivian Whip 2010 (+1 human-bane whip).
I understand your point, that the "technology" of magical items is static. But, really, so are most major consumer goods / collectors items. Today's shotgun and last centuries are almost entirely interchangeable.
For now, though, I will say, as an extension of point #2, that we purchase expensive products as a way to make ourselves stand out from our social peers. The problem with applying the same logic to PCs is that PCs don't have social peers. No one else is a PC. And if you structure your world such that your PCs do indeed have social peers - after all, someone else has got to be patronizing those magic shoppes - the status of PC is instantly devalued.
Your characters never run into NPC adventuring groups (or individual adventuring NPCs) with whom they compete for social status, contracts, and fame? I highly recommend you give it a go sometime. It makes the game much more fun.
I've never seen my players feel bad that the entire world doesn't revolve around them. Because the campaign certainly does revolve around them. Occasionally thwarting their rivals. Sometimes working with them. Often rescuing them from daring escapades that were over the NPC's heads, but ripely suited to the PC's talents. But, usually, just as passing members of the fraternal order of adventurers, swapping stories and advice over mugs of ale. And showing off their newest shineys.

Adamantine Dragon |

Adamantine Dragon wrote:To use the Walmart example, why couldn't there be a "Walmart" for magical items which had all your basic low level stuff with some +1 weapons and armor in their special locked glass case, but with potions, elixirs, minor wondrous items, etc. available for a reasonable cost?Well, setting aside the fact that Walmart has more than just the cheapest items of each type AND enough copies of various items to supply thousands of people every day... think about the logic of it. You are talking about millions of gold pieces worth of equipment. Why wouldn't every thief in the world be descending on this place to clear it out?
Because a "Walmart" in a fantasy setting would be like a "Walmart" in reality. A superstore that sold all the daily needed stuff, but also had some higher end items for the convenience of those who can afford them. The "Magic department" at a fantasy "Walmart" would likely be like the gun section at Walmart today. A small section devoted to a particular item while most of the shoppers are filling their buggies with bagels and toilet paper.
Adamantine Dragon wrote:How does that "ruin the game?" If you have the money, you can buy cheap magic stuff. If you don't, you can't.If you could get everything you want by going to the store would YOU risk your life exploring the forgotten tomb of almost certain death? I didn't think so.
Even limiting it to 'cheap' stuff, if every single 'cheap' magic item is available at the local store then you are taking about a ridiculous economy shattering amount of wealth.
No, you're not. Not any more than it's a "ridiculous economy shattering amount of wealth" to have a mall with a bunch of high end fashion stores right next to the Maserati dealer.
The vast majority of my characters don't adventure to plunder forgotten tombs CB. They adventure for a wide variety of reasons. And even if they did adventure to loot tombs, they might well think that it's easier and less risky to go out and find a tomb to legitimately loot than to test the security of the local magic mart and end up in prison or worse.
You know, the same reason you work for a living to buy cars instead of just heading down to the local dealer and driving off with one.
If the local magic shop has a CHANCE of having the item you are looking for and the ability to make or order it if it isn't too powerful then that's fine. If they've got thirty of anything and everything that you would ever want to buy that's just ridiculous... and dull. You'd clearly be better off pursuing a career as a magic shop vendor instead of this ridiculous...
Who said the shop would have thirty of everything? It would have what the local economy could bear. How do we know what that would be? Well, luckily Pathfinder actually publishes that in their guidelines for the availability of magic items by city size. Huh.

Shifty |

Let's look at weapons and armor. In the real world weapons are primarily guns and knives. Armor is, well, armor. You can buy guns at any price range, and if you want the most reliable, most accurate, most powerful gun possible, you're going to pay a hefty price for it. But you CAN buy it from a catalog. The same is true of body armor. Or electronic devices. Or shoes. Or gloves...
Good luck with that.
I think you miss the point where various state and federal laws (in the real world) put a limit on what it is you can can buy, and in turn, in your stock 'Fantasy setting' why would the local Feudal system honchos give you any freedom at all to freely buy such toys when the control of their holdings are determined by who has the most might?
As if the local warlord would be down with you rolling into MagicMart and buying yourself a +35 Vorpal Axe-Mace combo of underwater breathing and treaure detection to go menace his taverns with.

kmal2t |
In response to OP
1: It hurts a medieval setting when you have Walmart O' Fireballs
2: It makes things too easy available. Back in 2E it would list the rarity of the spell so that there was a power balance because it wasn't easy to get the coolest spells. Now people take it as a given that any spell listed in any book can just be added to your spell list no questions ask. You used to have to work for them. You also had to work for components.
The only argument for "Magic Shoppes" is maintaining the flow of the game. It could take up gameplay time to deal with magic and slow down the session so people usually just gloss over it and say here's your GQ Magazine of Spells go pick 'em.
Edit: also it totally cheapens the purpose of adventures when you don't get happy to find rare things and just throw it in a bin with your other +2 swords. IT then makes it so all you want is gold and money so you can just go buy items instead of discover them.

Adamantine Dragon |
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Adamantine Dragon wrote:Let's look at weapons and armor. In the real world weapons are primarily guns and knives. Armor is, well, armor. You can buy guns at any price range, and if you want the most reliable, most accurate, most powerful gun possible, you're going to pay a hefty price for it. But you CAN buy it from a catalog. The same is true of body armor. Or electronic devices. Or shoes. Or gloves...
Good luck with that.
I think you miss the point where various state and federal laws (in the real world) put a limit on what it is you can can buy, and in turn, in your stock 'Fantasy setting' why would the local Feudal system honchos give you any freedom at all to freely buy such toys when the control of their holdings are determined by who has the most might?
As if the local warlord would be down with you rolling into MagicMart and buying yourself a +35 Vorpal Axe-Mace combo of underwater breathing and treaure detection to go menace his taverns with.
How am I missing any point about governmental interference Shifty? If you want your campaigns to institute "magic control" laws, then go for it. I don't care.
As it is, I personally own firearms. I am licensed to carry them in public concealed if I want to. I can even shoot guns on my property if I so desire. If I wanted to purchase a machine gun, there's a federal license for that too. And explosives. They don't make it impossible to buy these things, they just make it expensive.
And I'm pretty sure even the most liberal GM isn't going to have +35 vorpal axe-mace combo of underwather breathing and treasure detection on the shelf. You'd have to custom order that thing. (Or, at least an actual RAW legal magic weapon not this hyperbolic exercise in cheesy exaggeration.)
You know. Just like you can do today in any reasonably close RAW interpretation of the rules.

Adamantine Dragon |
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In response to OP
1: It hurts a medieval setting when you have Walmart O' Fireballs
Pathfinder is not "a medieval setting". It is a fantasy setting. With magic. Including fireballs.
2: It makes things too easy available.
It would make things exactly as easily available as the Pathfinder Rules say it should be.
Back in 2E it would list the rarity of the spell so that there was a power balance because it wasn't easy to get the coolest spells. Now people take it as a given that any spell listed in any book can just be added to your spell list no questions ask. You used to have to work for them. You also had to work for components.
I was waiting for the grognard card. "In my day you had to work for them." I played back then. You know my first wizard was unable to learn "magic missile" which was then (and still may be) the single most iconic wizard spell. Why? Because I rolled poorly. Period. Yeah, that was a lot of fun.
Again, you seem to be complaining about how Pathfinder has redesigned the game here. How hard it is to learn a spell has nothing to do with magic shops. By RAW higher level spells will still be harder to find and you might have to visit a couple of cities to find one. But "shield" is probably going to be available most places. That ruins the game? Really?
The only argument for "Magic Shoppes" is maintaining the flow of the game. It could take up gameplay time to deal with magic and slow down the session so people usually just gloss over it and say here's your GQ Magazine of Spells go pick 'em.
I don't cede to you the role of arbiter for what are or are not valid arguments. There have been several valid arguments for the existence of magic shops on this board already, starting with "it's easy to make magic stuff, so it seems likely that people would."
Edit: also it totally cheapens the purpose of adventures when you don't get happy to find rare things and just throw it in a bin with your other +2 swords. IT then makes it so all you want is gold and money so you can just go buy items instead of discover them.
Why do you assume that I wouldn't get happy to find a +1 flaming bow at a magic shop? I'd be thrilled to find it. Now if I wanted one badly and it seems pretty easy to make for a magic item crafter, making it hard for my character to find one isn't making it "special" for me, it's just exerting GM control over the player in an arbitrary manner.

Makhno |

Gimbalt's +1 Ogre Bane Longsword of 1022 has a single fuller running from cross-guard to five inches below the tip. Also, the blade is intentionally left as bar-stock for the first six inches above the cross-guard to allow one to parry a close thrust without dulling the blade. Anyone can see from its fine craftsmanship that this is a must-have weapon for anyone at the Duke's gala Thursday.
None of that is anywhere in the rules. Say a DM describes the sword like that:
Player: Ooh! So that's, what, +1 to AC against... attacks with melee weapons? Or just light weapons, or...?
DM: Uh... no. Actually... it's nothing like that. No, uh, no real game effect.
Player: ... ok... well, the fine craftsmanship, that'll give me a +2 bonus to Diplomacy when interacting with the other guests at the gala, yeah?
DM: Um. Hm. No... no, not that either.
Player: So you're just feeding me b%~%!#+@. It's just a +1 ogre bane longsword, no other abilities or properties.
DM: ... yeah. Yeah, just... that.
And if you add those additional effects in — well, then we're having a different discussion, one which is about house rules and their effect on the game, or custom magic items and their effects on the game, etc.
Makhno wrote:2. Purpose. Ferraris and Rolexes are purchased for social status. Most people who buy weapons and armor from expensive catalogs do so for similar reasons. On the other hand, the reason you value your +4 furious greataxe is for the damage it lets you do.Yeah, but some people value their expensive cars for their ability to drive like a beast. See my earlier post about my boss's love-affair with Mustangs & Beemers.
Fair enough. The problem, however, is that one can interact with one's Mustang or Beemer in complex ways (driving it, washing it, fiddling with the engine, buying accessories for it); ways that draw on physical sensation and unconscious responses to stimuli.
It is not possible for a player to interact with his character's +1 ogre bane longsword in any such way.
Makhno wrote:3. Degradation. Products in the real world degrade. A new one of similar price is likely to be better than one you've been using for five years. This is totally false for magic items, which can be used continuously for thousands of years with no ill effect (by RAW).With proper maintenance, most anything can last forever. My parents have furniture and...
The fact is, in practice, real-world products degrade and people buy new ones to replace them. The case you describe is the exception, not the rule.

Adamantine Dragon |

Adamantine Dragon wrote:The fee presumably being something that would cover the casting of two teleport spells? (the wizard has to go back after all)
At the very highest levels they actually teleported items from place to place on demand for a fee.
Actually it's a custom spell/item which consists of unique "boxes" which the merchants purchased from the wizards' guild. I don't remember the exact amount of gold it cost to use it, but you put your item in your box, put the gold on the top and spoke the unique name of the box you wanted to teleport it to, and it went.
It does add a bit to the cost of the item, yes, but not the same as a full-blown teleport.
My campaign world has a lot of teleporting portals in it. Some for people, some for stuff. It seems to me that in a magical world distribution of extremely expensive items would not rely on mules, ships and shady wagon-masters.

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mdt does the best magic seller I have yet seen.
Basically set up like a high class diamond retailer. Separate floors for different classes of items. Armed guards and mages on hand for defense. A retainer required to even access the more expensive sections, with a service fee if you do not purchase anything.
Certainly something I'm going to draw inspiration from in the future.

kmal2t |
Dnd/PF/Whatever for most intents and purposes is medieval...it's not Industrial Revolution..its not Bronze Age..its barely Renaissance if you want to consider it that. It has the same technology and culture in most settings. The only difference is PF includes guns which from what I've seen would be considered late medieval/early renaissance anyway.
I can't recite what the 2E RAW for getting spells were, but I know from my experience I never had to roll to get common spells like Magic Missile and shield. That would be just silly since I'm almost positive they were listed as common. If, however, you wanted something out of those 4 colored tomb books from jungles in the east or something you'd have to roll.
And really? Oh noes! I have to travel through a few towns like I'm on Antique Roadshow looking for a rare ottoman...as opposed to having to crawl through a dangerous dungeon to look for the coveted spellbook of an ancient and powerful wizard.
If its fun for you to mail order for a Sword-o-Matic just pay shipping and handling GP then that's fine. All you have to do is get enough gold to go order more stuff off of Pathfinderzon.com instead of going to dangerous locations to find it. It seems more of a WoW mentality than a DnD one if you ask me.
And if you want to argue that with RAW about making magic items its easy anyway that's fine, but no DM I know would cheapen magic items by having them made ready to order like some there's some dnd assembly line sweatshop.

willmontgomery |
will, everything you say is within the purview of the GM simply by creating custom magic items that do things you can't find in a catalog. I do that all the time.
As do I (see below).
But let's pretend that you are right and that being in possession of something necessarily, by "human nature" automatically means that thing stops being special.
You don't have to take my word for it, but that is what studies of human psychology find. It's very nice for you that you are an exception. Apparently I am not.
Well, that applies to your "rare and wondrous" magic items just as much. After a time your players will grow used to them and they will no longer be special no matter how they obtained them.
Of course, except that they get the fun of finding out what they do... but more importantly the "special" items themselves evolve along with the PCs... so they never become entirely familiar.
And finally, this idea that you are appealing to the PLAYERS instead of the player CHARACTERS is interesting. I suppose that I definitely had more of a sense of wonder about this game, oh, 30 years ago when I first started playing. Now that I've had campaigns where we've saved the universe multiple times, using all sorts of the most bizarre and wondrous MacGuffins, I don't think you're going to be able to engender that feeling in ME with your rare and valuable +3 sword, no matter how difficult you make it for my character to get one. In fact, you might have exactly the opposite effect.
So perhaps familiarity _does_ "breed contempt", even in your case? More importantly, I don't where "no matter how difficult you make it for my character to get one" came from. Nothing I said was about making it difficult for PCs to get items. They just don't come from shoppes.
I first played back in 1979 or thereabouts (as I recall). The only reason I still retain an interest is that the _story_ can always be new.

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Dnd/PF/Whatever for most intents and purposes is medieval...
Oh no.
No no no.
See, some one once said something about that.
i don't get why people see D&D or it's derivatives as medieval european.
you have medieval knights wearing rennaiscane era armor, wielding roman era falcatas, worshipping greek gods, traveling with native american shamans wearing the hides of saharan beasts, who transform into prehistoric dinosaurs who are accompanied by modern japanese schoolgirls wielding Tokugawa Era Daisho and Wearing black pajamas, and old men wearing robes and pointed hats who chant mathematical equations to control reality, on a journey to kill brain eating space aliens, giant sentient firebreathing spellcasting reptiles and sentient jello.
So no, it most certainly is NOT medieval fantasy.

kmal2t |
And yet it only goes up to medieval technology and medieval societal advancements?
Plate mail...kings and courts and virtually every picture of towns and cities uses medieval looking architecture..
when is the last time you saw a DnD parliment? DnD rise of the industrial revolution and labor unions? A DnD Age of Reason with people inventing microbiology and penicillin?
When is the last time you saw a DnD Rosseou or Niche? Regardless of it being paganistic it still has the feel of medieval Europe..

Adamantine Dragon |

mdt does the best magic seller I have yet seen.
Basically set up like a high class diamond retailer. Separate floors for different classes of items. Armed guards and mages on hand for defense. A retainer required to even access the more expensive sections, with a service fee if you do not purchase anything.
Certainly something I'm going to draw inspiration from in the future.
Most of my high level magic shops don't have the items on the premises. They have illusionary examples of them and upon ordering the item, the box is used to ship it.
Lower to mid-level shops have magical sentries (I'm partial to golems actually) and alarms. I have played recently with the idea of some special spell which telegraphs the location of the stolen item, but that seems a bit much... Still considering it...

thejeff |
In response to OP
2: It makes things too easy available. Back in 2E it would list the rarity of the spell so that there was a power balance because it wasn't easy to get the coolest spells. Now people take it as a given that any spell listed in any book can just be added to your spell list no questions ask. You used to have to work for them. You also had to work for components.
Where did it list this? I can't find anything in the PHB. It's not in the actual spell descriptions. Or the lists by level or by school. Scrolls aren't broken out that way either.
Was it just for spells from later splat books? I don't see any lists in Tome of Magic either.
There were rules for rolling to be able to learn a spell, but they didn't distinguish by rarity.
House rule? Bad memory?

Blueluck |

Thalandar wrote:Well, that gets back to my point that a wizard given the time to mass produce magic items & compete with the local magic shop is playing a very different game than most. If you have the weeks of downtime, coupled with the thousands of free gold, to produce magical goods for sale, something is going side-ways with your group. . .BillyGoat wrote:Because if players can make items easily then NPCs can, too. If you want to talk about magic item shop pros and cons, you have to look at supply and demand. If the party has a PC wizard, he can create the magic items, underselling the magic shop.Thalandar wrote:And why not have magic shops when PC wizards can crank out magic items for half the price anyway?** spoiler omitted **
But more seriously, aren't there enough threads about item creation? Let's keep on the topic of magic item shop pros/cons, instead of item creation.
Downtime isn't necessarily a sign that something's gone wrong. If you saved the village at levels 1-2, cleared out the dungeon at levels 3-4, and defeated the evil at levels 5-6, all without significant breaks, it might make a lot of sense to take some time off when you hit level 7. It doesn't always make sense for the party to immediately move on to the next challenge, the morning after they defeated the last one. (Sometimes it does.)
Also, magic item creation doesn't take much downtime. In my previous scenario, for example, the total WBL of a character hitting 7th level is 23,500 gold. Even if they'd saved half that amount for item creation (quite a large savings) they could create everything they can afford in less than a month. They could create every item an entire party can afford in less time that it takes to winter somewhere. Considering how much medieval life shut down in the winter (in temperate climates), wintering is a pretty common notion.
While I don't think that parties should stop every time the wizard wants a new wand, it's can be hard to justify going multiple levels without a few days off.