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I know this is long, if you want to skip the fluff jump down to where it says "The main problem:"
So, I'm coming off a many year hiatus from games, but for the last 6 months I've been playing in a home game bi-monthly Pathfinder game, and the occasional PFS game at a local shop. I used to mainly GM games and played lots of d20 (3rd ED) games (D&D, M&M, CoC) but haven't touched anything until I started preparing for this home game about 8 months ago.
Note: I am very rules oriented. I like the nitty-gritty details of all the books and so since I started playing this campaign I've picked up almost all the core books (GM guide excluded) many of the player companions, and setting books over time. I also plan on running my first 1-shot game next weekend. After all this research I think my knowledge of PF has surpassed my GM, and I am pretty sure this is where the conflict is originating from.
Background: The campaign has had some bumpy points. We started with 5 people, one person dropped quickly but it was just a bard so no worries, then after about 4 months we lost our barbarian due to medical issues and the game took a break as the rest of the group couldn't do anything (we finished a side mission that we were doing w/o the barbarian and then had to stop and look for a 4th). This also coincided with winter holidays, so the break worked nicely for timing.
We just found the 4th member and have been going again for about 6 weeks (3 sessions), he's a fun guy who's new to Tabletop, but familiar with MMO/videogames so he's taking to it well. The thing is the only person who knew him is the GM and I think that our GM is going out of his way to let the new guy shine at the expense of both the group and the campaign. Examples of this would include a 45 minute (real time) "role play" with the GM and the New Guy, and one other person. This left me and one other person sitting at the table watching a conversation happen for 45 minutes with little knowledge gained about the circumstance and a failed attempt to convince an NPC of a lie.
When that was over the GM turned to us (the two not involved in the convo) and asked "ok what would you like to do," at which point I got a little bit curt and essentially said I'd like to just roll for some info to get the group back together as quickly as possible. This was one of the last things we did for the evening as the time was winding down, but I did get a little snappy about the situation.
The other part of why I got snappy was that this was our second game night in a row that was "roleplay heavy". The previous session had 2 combat encounters lasting in total 4-6 rounds of combat (the first encounter lasted 1 round and I'm not sure about the second, but it was also very quick). That night we only had one random encounter that lasted 3 rounds of combat and then after a successful casting of fear we didn't even get to finish the encounter as the beast never returned. I'm ok with the occasional roleplay heavy session, but I've been noticing a pattern for a while that the game is extremely combat light. We were initially informed by the GM that it would be a steady balance between the two, and I'm fine with that. I have in the past mentioned to the GM that I would appreciate more combat as my character (Cleric w/channel emphasis) is not designed to roll for skills, and neither is the Fighter (working for a Cleave/crit build). In fact the fighter only made perception and sense motive rolls the entire night (outside of the 3 rounds of combat), and was only involved in one conversation. Note that we had to approve our character with the GM, and all skill/feat/upgrades to our characters must be approved at level up too.
Backing up a little: As I stated I think I've learned more about the PF setting/game than my GM, which for a while bothered him that I was questioning his use of Golarion. He decided to just take a map of Varisia and add a few towns here and there. I was not informed initially that this was a homebrew world that just borrowed the maps. So I would start asking about Setting based questions, or inferring thing (mostly religious things as I'm a cleric and put lots of points into Knowledge Religion). After a game he pulled me aside and said that he didn't appreciate me doing that as his world was different from the Paizo setting. I explained that I didn't realize it, and explained how I came to the conclusion that I did. We came to an understanding on this, and apparently I've been doing fine (mostly as a result of communication).
As I also stated at one point, I like the nitty-gritty rules of things. I ask a lot of questions like "How'd that happen?" when something takes two move actions in one round. Or "Wait, don't you roll XXX against roll type YYY?" I do this quite frequently as I like to understand the rules so that I can play within them as strongly as possible, and with my upcoming GMing I want to make sure that I understand the rules so that I don't make any mistakes there. This has led to the most recent problem.
The main problem: After my last game session I got a text the next day from the GM saying "I know you don't mean anything by it, but you need to stop challenging my calls in game." and "You seemed agitated as the night went on, did you even have fun?" (These are shortened versions of the questions.) If you've read this far you'd remember the frustration I had with waiting to the side for 45 minutes (which has happen frequently in the campaign as the GM is prone to splitting up the party to the extent that we've been split into two groups for entire sessions), which is why I was getting agitated as the night went on, but also that there's just weeks of no combat, and little combat seems to be common in our campaign (which I explained as a response to the fun question). The challenging his calls, I can see why it looked that way (and I did taunt him playfully a little about it): a monster (water drake) flew out of the water, attacked our rogue, then flew back into the water (covering a total of about 150ft). I asked "Wait, a creature can take a move action, attack, then take another move action in one round?" When the GM said "yes" I didn't argue the point I just smiled and said something to the extent of "well I call shenanagins!" and ribbed him a little. I wasn't worried about the encounter being too deadly, nor that he was necessarily cheating, I was really just looking to clarify the rules and figure out how to get the water drake on land to fight him.
Perception was the key and I can understand why it frustrated him, but even still I feel that asking questions should be allowed. I apologized for the situation and said that we should hang out for lunch and discuss what issues he had specifically and how I can correct the behavior so that I get to ask questions and he doesn't feel like I'm challenging him. We are trying to figure out a time for this still... so ...
The Question: What should I do about this? I'm getting pretty frustrated at the game's lack of combat in general at this point, and on top of that I've really listened to him about "challenging him" (which we previously talked about related to Golarion Lore), and feel like I may have just hit a nerve and he's lashing out a little about the last night. Am I just being a huge PITA and should just apologize, back off, and shut up? I know it will be very difficult for me to not ask questions as it is part of my nature, but I'm not sure why it bothers my GM so much since I'm basically the exact same way at PFS games and those GMs seem to either not mind or even like my questions.
I am planning to find out what it is about my attitude that bothers him and adjust it in related to my questioning him in game, but was I doing anything explicitly wrong? Should I just never questions a GM? How do I breach the topic of "we need more combat, the Fighter does nothing most night and I'm just a buff machine for Chrisma rolls those nights, it's not balanced." ?
Honestly i can understand all of this. The game is a roleplay game but the lack of excitment can kill it via combat and such. The split group idea i used personally in one of my games we had a rogue,barberian,cleric,ranger,and summoner in the group i split the summoner with the ranger (they are getting married the ranger id a half elf the summoner is a full elf and they rp hating eachother because of it lol) and put the barbarian and cleric with each other and the rogue by himself. Its very challenging to swap between them all but there was combat and RPing throughout it all. Best thing to do is to talk among all of you voice out your opinion and just have a talk about it. Worst that will happen is the DM will just brush you off but at least the thought it out there and he knows you would like a bit more action. As far as the "challenging" goes ive had the same thing happen and i explain everything that goes on as best i can i can see why the GM is upset because it can break the feel of it maybe it would be better for you to have a sit down with him and let him explain encounters and all the fine details you know? i hope this helps and good luck on your GMing.
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Hmm....
Find another GM who runs games that you like to play?
This sounds like a fairly major mismatch in play styles to me. And the GM clearly doesn't like having his calls dragged down into rules debates during game play.
I understand the annoyance of a scenario specifically directed at one PC, perhaps even with a barrier to entry for other PCs to participate in such as language, cultural acceptance, etc.
It's particularly annoying if they happen in the beginning or end of a session such that they could easily be settled with just the DM and the player concerned, without the other players hanging around twiddling their thumbs.
You could ask the DM to consider whether the encounter is one that everyone will be able to participate in, or aimed directly at just one player, and whether it could be handled in private prior to/after a session.
About questioning rule calls: Ask him, but not at the table. Some DMs might feel it is confrontational/disruptive to talk about the rules during a session. If he wants to bend the rules rather than play them straight, you have to ask yourself if that's a game you can enjoy, given your nature.
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And the GM clearly doesn't like having his calls dragged down into rules debates during game play.
To be fair I'm not debating anything, every time I ask I accept the answer given and do not attempt to counter.
About questioning rule calls: Ask him, but not at the table. Some DMs might feel it is confrontational/disruptive to talk about the rules during a session. If he wants to bend the rules rather than play them straight, you have to ask yourself if that's a game you can enjoy, given your nature.
This could be a good solution. I could just write all my questions down in a notebook and question it all afterwards.
Also, while I agree that there is a "mis-match," this is a close personal friend who I talk to about RPGs and we agree when discussing games out-of-game, how that doesn't translate into game I'm not sure. I am also the host for this group, and would have to leave everyone else searching for a place to run the game (honestly it would probably kill the game as no one can host).
So, essentially, I can't just walk away from this and would prefer to come to an amicable resolution.
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First off, I'd cut back on constantly asking how X creature can do Y. It's annoying and slows down the pace of combat when you keep doing that. Every once in a while is fine, but trust me, as a GM it gets old when you have to explain EVERYTHING each and every time. In the case of the all drakes, Speed Surge allows it to move twice and attack. Remember that monsters will have things that can bend or break the normal rules. So I'd say yes, you are being a pain in the ass, should apologize, and try harder to not nitpick every little thing.
That said, you should probably express your concerns about the lack of combat for you and the fighter. I'd probably wait until after the next session, mostly since I like to give these things three sessions before expressing concerns over playstyle. You never know, the next game might have much more combat. Though, the first session of 6 rounds for a combat doesn't sound that bad in all honesty. Just give it another session and if things don't liven up, email the GM a couples days after the game about it. I say that because when you wait a couple days, one tends to be less argumentative over game issues and can come across less douchey. I'd also suggest throwing a couple skill points here and there into some RP skills so you don't feel left out when that happens.
I wouldn't leave the group. That's the lazy man's way and honestly, 9 out of 10 issues can be dealt with just talking things out like an adult. If I left every game I had some issue with, I'd have absolutely no games to play.
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As a GM I frequently "break the rules" with my monsters. I build monsters and NPCs that are designed to challenge the party and provide them with situations they have to think on their feet. If a player asks me "how did your XXX do YYY"? My answer is always the same. "That's what it does. What does your character do now?"
I had a custom monster in my last boss battle who had the ability 1/day to fire off four spells in one round. That's just what it does. They aren't huge spells and they are at a low CL, but if you get close enough or it feels threatened enough, that's its personal special defense.
How does it do it? What feats, abilities or skills does it use?
I dunno. I don't care. It's just what it does.
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I'd also suggest throwing a couple skill points here and there into some RP skills so you don't feel left out when that happens.
The Wizard2/Rogue1 and Sorcerer3 have almost everything covered better as a face. The only time I come into the picture is when I ask if I see any religious symbols/things to roll on (which the game is distinctly lacking so far). I have points in these things, but it would be social suicide to try to outclass the Sorc in most cases, and the W/R in most others. I'm third on the line for doing RP things, Fighter fourth.
If a player asks me "how did your XXX do YYY"? My answer is always the same. "That's what it does. What does your character do now?"
This is, most of the time what I'm looking for and nothing more. I'm not trying to jump up and down saying "see it's ok for me to ask," just that I'm not trying to challenge anything.
That's fine, but people tend to tire of being asked things repeatedly and having to constantly repeat themselves. If you really want to know, just ask after the game or look it up yourself. Think of it this way. How many times have you asked your GM about a rule and turns out he is right? If those outweigh the wrong, perhaps you just need to chill and have some faith that your GM knows what he's doing.
Don't repeatedly question the DM at the table. I'd start getting huffy, too as that is a huge pain, IMHO. Write down your questions and ask afterwards.
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Thanks for the input so far everyone. I have a good idea which direction to go in for this.
Don't repeatedly question the DM at the table. I'd start getting huffy, too as that is a huge pain, IMHO. Write down your questions and ask afterwards.
To clarify, I don't constantly ask questions, just a couple times a night at most.
Thanks for the input so far everyone. I have a good idea which direction to go in for this.
Don't repeatedly question the DM at the table. I'd start getting huffy, too as that is a huge pain, IMHO. Write down your questions and ask afterwards.To clarify, I don't constantly ask questions, just a couple times a night at most.
Even a couple of times a night can get old.
I have two rules lawyers who play in my campaigns. We rotate GMs so I've played with them as a player as much as I've been their GM.
In general the only "rules issues" that come up involve things like positioning, cover, reach or working out complex things like "does it provoke an attack of opportunity if I fly over your head?"
Those things we just work out and it is rare that we don't end up agreeing quickly on a ruling.
More complex or unique situations are quickly put into the "I'll get back to you, but for now this is what we are doing" bucket and we move on. If someone questions how a custom spell works or a custom monster functions or anything about the availablity of items or particular NPCs, I simply play the GM fiat card. If they want to debate the point I'll ask them (outside of game time) why they have a problem with it and if it makes sense, I'll adjust, but if my own internal compass doesn't agree, I tell them so. If they still object my answer is "this is the way things work in my campaign world." I've not yet had anyone object after getting to that point. But I think that's because they trust that I am doing it because it makes sense from my own view of my own world, not because I'm trying to sneak something past them or trip them up. I think they believe that my long term goal is to provide them with a memorable and epic story that they will add to their list of great gaming experiences.
That's really the bottom line of the whole thing.
"a monster (water drake) flew out of the water, attacked our rogue, then flew back into the water (covering a total of about 150ft). I asked "Wait, a creature can take a move action, attack, then take another move action in one round?" When the GM said "yes" I didn't argue the point I just smiled and said something to the extent of "well I call shenanagins!" and ribbed him a little. I wasn't worried about the encounter being too deadly, nor that he was necessarily cheating, I was really just looking to clarify the rules and figure out how to get the water drake on land to fight him."
Had a situation sort of like this. Kind of.
We had entered a foresty/swamp area, heard screams/laughter, etc. Roll fo initiative. First thing that happens is a human spider thing, forget the exact monster, drops from the trees that it was hidden in right next to our cleric, attacked her, then disappeared back into trees. I spoke up asking how it was able to move, attack and then move again.
Now here is where our DMs seem to differ. Mine is pretty cool, a good friend and she actually listens to her players which yours doesn't seem to do. She thought for a moment, agreed, and placed the creature back down. Honestly, if your DM isn't going to really listen to you and act like this... probably better off finding a different one.
From what you have stated you seem to have handled things pretty well. When you ask a question you don't dwell on the answer (if it is not to your liking). You accept it and move on. Good on you--many players aren't so reasonable.
If your DM feels you're challenging him too much it might be that he is insecure about his role (as DM). Perhaps he senses that you're more knowledgeable than he is, and feels intimidated.
If that's the case, you're probably better off finding a new group (perhaps one in which you could be DM). You seem like you would be more comfortable in that position than you are as a player, not to mention it would guarantee you play the game you want to play. As long as you are forward with your group, you could have as much or as little combat/roleplay as you want.
Good luck.
Here is what I would do.
Build a cogent list of rule queries, along with supporting documentation to bring with you. Arrange to meet away from normal game time, and absent to other players. This will make for a less threatening environment for you both.
Go over the problems you have and make sure to give him time to explain as well. Then work out solutions if possible. If you can't come to an understanding, and you cannot adjust your play style. Then it might mean it is time to find a new gm.
Couple of things.
First up, you and your DM might be after a little bit of different games. Personally? Combat bores me to tears. I roll this, and then hit you for X (and yes, we do dress up combat a heck of a lot better than that). Its for me though a completely boring thing. If your GM can go multiple sessions without combat, and it's light on to begin with, it's probably not rating too high on his list either. Explore that with him of what is it YOU want out of RPing, vs what HE wants out of GMing. This is going to have a different emphasis on what role the hard and fast rules play in the game. There has only been 1 session I remember that hasn't had any combat in it. Everyone except for 1 player seemed to be cool with that.... I believe that player's words by 3/4 way through the night were "I want to hit things." I'm not sure if he was talking about hitting things in game or actuality at that point from his expression....
Coming out of this is the question the GM asked. "Are you having fun?". Take a step back and look at the game, and look at if it's what you want, or if your just turning up because "It's Thursday night and that's what I do on Thursday night." That a game has stopped being fun is most often apparent to other people before it's apparent the the ex-fun-ee (I love inventing words). Not going to dwell on this one, but have a think about it.
Finally, if it's not important, I wouldn't bother bringing it up IN GAME. If he wants to play that Spell resistance applies to Channel Energy, it's probably not going to break the bank if it does for 1 game. By all means, if you think it's wrong go looking for chapter and verse later and bring it up with him but do it A) Away from everyone, and B) without disrupting everything. Watching a book battle between you and the GM is even more boring to all the other players as sitting on the sideline with a split party. Not only are they picking their navels instead of doing what they are there to do (Roleplay), but the mood and flow of the game has just been thrown out the window. Aside from that, do it too often and you will be known as 'That guy who disrupts everything just when it gets going.' Knock yourself out at other occasions, especially if it is something that is likely to be ongoing and if it's a 3.5-> PF rules change, (eg. Undead can now be sneak attacked), but again, if it's letting a water drake have an extra move action.... I wouldn't even bother.
River drakes have a fly speed of 60. It wouldn't work if they had to cover 150 feet. Especially when they are probably at medium load after grabbing the cleric.
OP said "about 150 feet", so I assume that he probably said that from memory, which would cover the distance discrepancy. The River Drake didn't grab anybody, it attacked the Rogue.
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I have rules-lawyer leanings myself, and it is not worth spoiling an otherwise good game over nitpicking. If you are concerned that your GM is making rules mistakes, then feel free to ask him about it after the game - or even better, check the bestiary and then ask him about it if the answer isn't in the monster statblock. Saying "I'm calling shenanigans" at the table is rude. Even if it's meant as a joke and you're not actually arguing, the GM could justifiably feel that you are undermining him. The adversary could easily have a special ability or feat that you don't know about. As long as the combat is a fair challenge don't worry so much about whether you can explain its every last ability.
Feeling cut out of RP and being frustrated at lack of combat is a different situation. Since your GM has asked you if you were actually having fun, you have a perfect reason to let him know that you were bored by that scene and let him know what you'd prefer. It's possible that the GM didn't / doesn't realize that the splitting the party stuff is making you restless. You should be able to work something out to prevent that. Physically keep the party together. If these are RP situations specifically aimed at the other player (ex with language or cultural barriers as Petty Alchemist said) then they need to be opened up. If the GM said he was aiming for equal RP and combat he can balance that out - and if you said you were OK with equal amounts of RP you should at least make an effort to get involved in those. Even if you don't put any skill points in social skills you can still talk to someone.
Checking the bestiary is meta gaming.
1) how do you know EXACTLY what monster this is?
2) That it doesn't have special abilities or something to do with the particular scenario that make it weaker/stronger/different.
3) Bestiaries aren't supposed to be an open book content test during adventuring, how many HP they have, AC, DR weaknesses, that's not something you just peruse through during encounters.
Just because it's a "Water Drake" doesn't mean the GM has to use those exact stats from that stat block.
I sued to play with a GM that would throw a dragon at you... what color is it? White.
B-B-but it's breathing fire, yes that's right a white colored dragon breathing fire. So?
I sued to play with a GM that would throw a dragon at you... what color is it? White.B-B-but it's breathing fire, yes that's right a white colored dragon breathing fire. So?
Dang Albino Red Dragon ;-)
Dang Albino Red Dragon ;-)
I sued to play with a GM that would throw a dragon at you... what color is it? White.B-B-but it's breathing fire, yes that's right a white colored dragon breathing fire. So?
There was also the case of the goblin with 6 levels of fighter (back before this was common at all) *thwack* "I hit the goblin for 6 hp, he's dead!" DM: the goblin attacks you for 4 damage.
What? there is another goblin?DM: No it's the same goblin.
What? but I killed him.
DM: Apparently not.
*Thwack* I hit the goblin for 7 more damage he's dead now!
DM: the goblin attack you back.
What magic is this??
To clarify, I don't constantly ask questions, just a couple times a night at most.
Given the history you recounted, the GM probably felt backed up against the wall before. Even a couple of times a session might feel pretty raw. I'd suggest backing off a bit more and jotting them down. Email him after the game saying that there were a couple of things you didn't understand for a while.
EDIT: And whatever you do, don't go calling shenanigans on him even in jest. He had you cold on the drake thing as Odraude pointed out. The tease probably put his back up even though, had you pursued it as an actual challenge, you would have come out the worse and looking the fool.
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I wrote out a long email to my GM, I took a lot of tips from this thread and said that I will jot down questions and anything them up after game. And I expressed my frustration about pacing and splitting up the group. I also realized while writing it that one of the other players was frustrating me that night, basically playing NA ( neutral ass-hole) and acting in evil-ish in front of my cleric of Iomedae.
Anyways, thanks for the responses.