What is "ultraconservative" and not is just an opinion. I find "you can order around a random horse to do what you want in a highly unnatual environment" ultraliberal rather. But regardless, i'm not saying that the wizard is fine balancewise (casters>mundanes, i agree). Im saying that if you agree mundanes are weak, its weird ti want to remove the few perks they have by dm fiating to allow spells to do stuff they where never intended to by referring to it as "creative". A mundane being creative never gets that leeway - if my fighter lights and kicks a barrel of booze, does she gets to treat it as a flaming sphere or delayed blast fireball? If my rogue rolls well on diplomacy, will the target be effected as through Suggestion?
In those cases (as numerous threads here have proven() people go to far lengths of applying real-world physics to minimize the effect.
Theres a double standard where casters using spells outside of intended use to bypass problems the mundanes where designed to excel at are "creative" (no matter how cliche) but mundane chars doing the reverse are cheesy and should get absolutely minimal benefit from it.
This isnt what constitutes the caster/martial disparity but god knows it doesnt help.
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No, Kirth is right - the point he is making is that the game isn't balanced, but it has be to force balanced by the DM. By either having very strict (and subjective) interpretation on how something works, or allowing mundane extremes to counter the effectiveness of magic - i.e. fiating power in either direction to reign in magic or to counter vs. running it as written.
Then again, my "true summons" suggestion does shut this argument down cold.
Aumaulous' version of Mount: You get one horse for the spell per caster - forever. If its from a wand = 1 horse, the charges just determine how many times you can summon it.
If it dies, memorizing the spell again (if on your list) or using the wand again does nothing. As another feature, my version of the spell would give you one horse per level - with the prime and secondary horses (as you level up) gaining barding, being stronger/more hd etc. You can't take their gear, but with my rewrite as the wizard levels up he can create a team of horses for his whole party, the heavier ones for the martial types already equipped for battle. Of course if any of these horses die they are permanently removed from the roster - so try to keep them alive.
So a 5th level wizard can summon 5 horses, a few of them being warhorses with gear. If they all die, his roster is reset and no horses are available till he gains another level (1 new riding horse at level 6).
The above paragraph is just a fix - my fix - but to be honest I would consider any sort of fix -to conjuration, evo, SoD, casting in combat and a slew of other problems, imbalances or stupidities that need to be fixed with regard to casting and some class abilities and feats.
For example - in the current PF version the summoned horse comes with a saddle (30 gp riding saddle, or 15gp for a cheaper one if you DM fiat it)). So I can buy a wand for 750gp with 50 charges, summon (over a period of time) 50 horses - sell the saddles (nothing in conjuration says the gear goes away if removed from the creature or if it dies) for a total value of 1500 gp, sans the wand you gain 750gp. if the Dm says these brand new saddles are sold at half price you still break even on the wand.
Now if a player pulled that stunt I would send him out of the game room head first (not joking), but this is the kind of crap that doesn't pass muster, let alone using a 750 gp wand as a trap setting devices (which is both smart and repulsive since it perverts the reason and function of the spell).
And this is just one spell that people don't really think about as being broken or overpowered or even a minor problem.
The game needs a re-write on the logic/consistency side and with less emphasis on the QQ generated by caster players. Re-write spells and abilities in a functional, logical and world considerate fashion that doesn't twist internal game consistency like a pretzel and you can salvage this game.
many of the roles have overlap
martial base classes in pathfinder
- fighter
- rogue
- ranger
- paladin
- cleric
- druid
- alchemist
- summoner (via eidolon)
- Cavalier
- Samurai
- Bard
- inquisitor
- magus
- barbarian
- monk
- gunslinger
prestige classes
- dragon disciple
- eldritch knight
- battle herald
- master chymist
- arcane archer
- rage prophier
possible skill oriented pathfinder base classes
- rogue
- wizard
- sorcerer (sage bloodline)
- witch
- ninja
- bard
- inquisitor
- ranger
- magus (Dex/Int kensai build)
- summoner (via eidolon)
- alchemist (int build)
possible skill oriented prestige classes
- pathfinder chronicler
- arcane trickster (int build)
- arcane archer (int build)
- eldritch knight (int build)
- master spy
primary casting base classes
- wizard
- druid (domain build)
- cleric
- witch
- sorcerer (human w/ sage bloodline is best route, though any works)
- oracle (again, human works best)
primary casting prestige classes (who don't lose more than a single spell level or more than 2 caster levels)
- eldritch knight (outsider race or no more than a single fighter level)
- loremaster
- arcane trickster (with access to 3rd party feats to bypass certain roguish requirements)
- rage prophet (if taken with only 2 barbarian levels)
- dragon disciple (if 11th level or lower and built correctly)
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Then again, my "true summons" suggestion does shut this argument down cold.
Aumaulous' version of Mount: You get one horse for the spell per caster - forever. If its from a wand = 1 horse, the charges just determine how many times you can summon it.
If it dies, memorizing the spell again (if on your list) or using the wand again does nothing. As another feature, my version of the spell would give you one horse per level - with the prime and secondary horses (as you level up) gaining barding, being stronger/more hd etc. You can't take their gear, but with my rewrite as the wizard levels up he can create a team of horses for his whole party, the heavier ones for the martial types already equipped for battle. Of course if any of these horses die they are permanently removed from the roster - so try to keep them alive.
This is a terrible fix.
Ignoring the fact that you have essentially made the spell something no spontaneous caster would even CONSIDER learning, why would even prepared casters learn this spell?
Teleport, Flight spells, and other such things obsolete Mount by a fair bit, so all this does is take it from "Obsolete and hardly worth using" to "Useless waste of word count". Nobody would use this spell if it became utterly worthless due to a mishap with a monster that decided to kill the horse. That is the absolute wrong way to balance something, it just nerfs it so it's unusable instead of fixing any perceived problems with the spell.
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This is a terrible fix.
Ignoring the fact that you have essentially made the spell something no spontaneous caster would even CONSIDER learning, why would even prepared casters learn this spell?
Teleport, Flight spells, and other such things obsolete Mount by a fair bit, so all this does is take it from "Obsolete and hardly worth using" to "Useless waste of word count". Nobody would use this spell if it became utterly worthless due to a mishap with a monster that decided to kill the horse. That is the absolute wrong way to balance something, it just nerfs it so it's unusable instead of fixing any perceived problems with the spell.
Your reaction tells me that this is in fact a perfect fix.
Use the mount for transportation - not for food, saddle/revenue generator or a magic trap setter and you won't have problems.See, the fact that my write up would cause you to react in such a fashion is a strong indicator that this is the right way to go; no abuse, no loopholes - just function based on design intent -it provides a temporary riding animal. If you can't keep a temporarily summoned horse alive for a few hours while it gets you from point A to B then you are doing it wrong. If you abuse the spell (use the summoned horses as catapult ammo) then you lose access to it. Also I would keep the (D) component of the spell - if the animals are in immediate danger of being killed then you can dismiss a few or all of them.
And of course reading comp does come into play - I stated you gain 1 horse per level. So if you are 3rd level = 3 different horses in total, you do not need to summon all of them at once, and should you get them all killed you will still be able to summon another new horse once you gain a level (4 horses - 3 permanently removed = 1 new horse). Stop killing your horses/playing like a dumbass and you get the function out of the spell that it was intended for, i.e. a mount. Use it for other purposes and the spell will fail as an exploit as you waste your resources. Spontaneous casters can still use this spell and if they run it like your typical caster poster here (carelessly and thoughtlessly) they can always swap the spell out for something else later.
Pretty simple really.
Teleport, Flight spells, and other such things obsolete Mount by a fair bit, so all this does is take it from "Obsolete and hardly worth using" to "Useless waste of word count".
No, it wouldn't - mount would still be a good way to gain some transportation at low levels (up to 7th) and my version provides multiple mounts for the whole party and even provide combat assistance at higher casting levels (as I stated a few of the mounts stats and equipment would improve for a higher level caster) so it would always have a purpose.
And what makes you think I wouldn't nerf the f~&$ out of Teleport and Flight? I would return tremendous risk and limits to teleport and flight would have renewed risk - no Mary Poppins/Pathfinder/Easy mode freefall if dispelled. The days of pick the "right spell for the right occasion" to solve in-game problems days are over for me.
I'm open to hearing your fix for the spell Rynjin - makes sure it doesn't include a loophole that allows for a saddle shop.
@Auxmaulous
so you are telling me that if you had a group of players, you would force one of them to play a rogue, even if nobody wanted to play one. just because you do not like the concept of summoned horses springing traps.
not every group has somebody whom will gladly play a rogue
in fact, finding groups with willing healers or trapfinders is a rarity.
wand of infernal healing allows parties to function without a dedicated healbot
and a wand of mount allows a party to function without a rogue.
the game literally encourages including alternatives to undesired roles.
i think that while the wand of mount outshines a rogue, it should still be allowed to function as an alternative to rogueless parties.
Your reaction tells me that this is in fact a perfect fix.
Use the mount for transportation - not for food, saddle/revenue generator or a magic trap setter and you won't have problems.
And you think that using things for transportation only means they're safe? AoE effects, traps that are set off by the rest of the party, hell even a pack of goblins will all affect that horse. And once it's gone? *POOF* the money you spent on the wand or the spell known that you wasted on the spell itself? Wasted.
See, the fact that my write up would cause you to react in such a fashion is a strong indicator that this is the right way to go; no abuse, no loopholes - just function based on design intent -it provides a temporary riding animal. If you can't keep a temporarily summoned horse alive for a few hours while it gets you from point A to B then you are doing it wrong. If you abuse the spell (use the summoned horses as catapult ammo) then you lose access to it. Also I would keep the (D) component of the spell - if the animals are in immediate danger of being killed then you can dismiss a few or all of them.
Pro tip: If someone's first thought upon seeing a fix is "This is terrible" that is not an indicator that you're doing it right.
The design intent is for an easily replaceable low-level disposable pack animal, hence why it summons a simple horse and not some extra-sturdy animal meant to survive the rigors of the road.
And of course reading comp does come into play - I stated you gain 1 horse per level. So if you are 3rd level = 3 different horses in total, you do not need to summon all of them at once, and should you get them all killed you will still be able to summon another new horse once you gain a level (4 horses - 3 permanently removed = 1 new horse).
At which point another spell (the Communal Mount spell) is removed from the game since it no longer serves a purpose, as the regular Mount spell can now summon at maximum over 3 times as many horses.
This "fix" is in a weird position that it is both overall worse than the regular Mount spell for its intended purpose (a disposable mount), and yet has become more powerful than the confines a 1st level spell should be trapped inside of (obsoleting a 2nd level spell after 6th level).
Stop killing your horses/playing like a dumbass and you get the function out of the spell that it was intended for, i.e. a mount. Use it for other purposes and the spell will fail as an exploit as you waste your resources.
Perhaps it slipped your mind, but the whole point of spells is to be versatile. That's the reason Evocation is generally called out as a "bad" school, because it's only purpose is killing things and making them die.
Regardless of comparative caster power, making spells serve a rigid, single purpose fixes none of the given problems with spellcasters (they obsolete skill points in many skills, their terrain control is too powerful, etc.). It only serves as a knee-jerk nerf to something that doesn't even need it in the first place.
You never want to limit options like this, you want to limit the amount of optimal strategies. Summoning a Mount is hardly an optimal strategy that needs restriction.
Spontaneous casters can still use this spell and if they run it like your typical caster poster here (carelessly and thoughtlessly) they can always swap the spell out for something else later.
I'd think using a spell outside of its so-called "intended purpose" shows at least a modicum of thought.
No, it wouldn't - mount would still be a good way to gain some transportation at low levels (up to 7th) and my version provides multiple mounts for the whole party and even provide combat assistance at higher ones (as I stated a few of the mounts stats and equipment would improve for a higher level caster) so it would always have a purpose.
No, it still wouldn't serve much of a purpose, since every other summon spell past Summon Monster/Nature's Ally I has a better in-combat option than a horse.
And what makes you think I wouldn't nerf the f+&@ out of Teleport and Flight? I would return tremendous risk and limits to teleport and flight would have renewed risk - no Mary Poppins/Pathfinder/Easy mode freefall if dispelled. The days of pick the "right spell for the right occasion" to solve in-game problems days are over for me.
And here-in lies your problem. You're much too focused on "nerfing the f~~@" out of things that you're missing that "nerfing the f!!~ out of things" DOESN'T WORK.
Nerfing (hard nerfing anyway) things rarely fixes problems, it just creates player enmity and frustration. Can you sincerely tell me that it was better when casting a spell to help the party had a good chance of killing them if something went wrong?
Can you vouch for every player out there that nerfing Fly/Teleport would be a GOOD thing? No matter how much they whine about how casters get all the nice things, most players greatly enjoy skipping over boring "walk walk walk, random encounter, repeat ad nauseam" journeys in the later game.
I'm open to hearing your fix for the spell Rynjin - makes sure it doesn't include a loophole that allows for a saddle shop.
You assume I think it needs a fix. If it isn't broken, don't try to fix it. Focus on the larger problems at hand.
The magic system as a whole scales up too well. Utility spells like Mount, Overland Flight, and Teleport are NOT THE PROBLEM. Spells that obsolete skills (Invisibility, Spider Climb, Charm Person) and spells that LITERALLY break the game (Pretty much anything on the 8th and 9th level spell lists), and Summons/The COnjuration school as a whole are the problem.
It needs an entire rework to make casters not the be-all, end-all in social superiority and in-combat terrain mastery, not a piece-meal pick and choose of the Flavor of the Week "broken" spell that's being used to make up for a deficit in the party.
I will give an example right quick that would fix YOUR problem with the spell without affecting its overall power level to a large amount. It's been discussed on this page, simply implement that semi-houserule into the spell description itself: The horse will not move without a rider.
There, fixed. No more bullshit about the spell becoming literally useless if a horse dies a few times, it fixes the "exploit" of using the Mount as cannon fodder, and it does not increase the relative power of the spell above the intended by a whit. Simple. Elegant. Does not change the overall simplicity of the spell, and fixes your singular problem with it.
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@Auxmaulous
so you are telling me that if you had a group of players, you would force one of them to play a rogue, even if nobody wanted to play one. just because you do not like the concept of summoned horses springing traps.
not every group has somebody whom will gladly play a rogue
If that's the trash level of players available or if I was stuck with those who only want to play casters/powergame I wouldn't even run the game. I would find other players to game with or a game that is not a 3rd ed derivative that encourages this kind poor thinking.
the game literally encourages including alternatives to undesired roles.
You mean playing casters to undesired roles. Hey, if you like that - great, but I consider that style of play bad - as in badwrongfun bad.
What you want (or prefer) is a caster dominated game where poorly designed spells, newly introduced broke spells (via splat) decide the bestest class to play. So for you the spell list is the most important aspect of class selection. Is is solid proof that the current system is a failure.
They have introduced imbalance from the getgo, and you (and people like you) embrace it instead of wanting a fix. Having casters fill all roles with tweak builds = design failure.
stuffNobody has to play a rogue. There are multiple classes with trapfinding. Anyone can get disable device as a class skill. Any arcane caster can deal with magic traps (though not as well).
Honestly, if nobody in my group wanted to handle traps, I'd just assume it was not a fun aspect of the game and remove then. To me that is a much better option than encouraging the mount cheese...
but not every dungeonmaster can find the time to edit out traps and place alternative encounters
and some don't even bother to tweak treasure.
tis a problem with relying on adventure paths as written.
a dungeon master tends to require all sorts of prep time reading sections of an AP already. celestia forbid that they add their own encounters, generate their own treasure, or *Gasp* tailor their encounters to a party lacking a given role.
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You assume I think it needs a fix. If it isn't broken, don't try to fix it.
This gives me a good insight into your thought process and how we have ended up with such a poorly defined game.
Pro tip: your fix is crap and doesn't address the material aspect of the spell - the free 30 gp saddle you get at the end. Your fix also bad in the vein of the rope trick control is - "the rope cannot be hidden", is bad. Instead of reducing the time of the spell to prevent the 15 min workday, they just add a bizarre "cannot be hidden" clause. Terrible.
With your fix the mount needs a rider to move. What if you need to send the horse out to someone who is wounded or it's too risky to reach in a battlefield (think of the movie Warhorse in the middle of no mans land)? What if I want to send the mount off to allies with some supplies - and they are 50 feet away? The sending the horse out to pick up someone wounded (as a low level option) is a classic trope, your fix turns the horse into a statue if it doesn't have a rider. Pass
And then the powergamers just move on to the next cheese - sending in Summon monster I or II to set off traps. Naw, your fix is no fix at all. Conjuration produces effects that are very physical and powerful (if just temporary) with poorly or not even addressed consequences. Conjuration needs to hit with a real bat (not a nerf one) until it is bloody and complies with the rest of the game. Those summoned resources should be tracked and inventoried.
I don't think that all summoned creatures should be permanently removed as a resource since most are designed for combat, but there should be timer penalty on use if they get wasted. Be it a few days to a month. You should be forced to use something else to solve problems while the timer resets - hopefully it will be your brain.
For a moment contain your rage/3rd ed defender mentality and think of conjuration in relation to other spells - say evo.
Evo has several built in limitations while conjuration abuse and use is limited to duration and the imagination of the caster. This is bad game design plain and simple.
You should not cast fireball on your party to hit the badguys mixed in melee with your allies. Evo has to also deal with SR and energy resistance. Conjuration needs some limitations also - it doesn't need people here handwaving away issues because they think it isn't "broken". Hell, it isn't even a case of being broken (which mechanically it is), it's the fact that the extent of the ability and range of use is poorly defined, if DEFINED AT ALL.
You mean playing casters to undesired roles. Hey, if you like that - great, but I consider that style of play bad - as in badwrongfun bad.
What you want (or prefer) is a caster dominated game where poorly designed spells, newly introduced broke spells (via splat) decide the bestest class to play. So for you the spell list is the most important aspect of class selection. Is is solid proof that the current system is a failure.
They have introduced imbalance from the getgo, and you (and people like you) embrace it instead of wanting a fix. Having casters fill all roles with tweak builds = design failure.
you assume wrong. i want a mythic game where powerful archwizards shape the universe with their mind and epic warriors perform deeds from the stories of Beowulf, the 12 labors of hercules, the feats of Chu C'lain (did i spell it right?), or Sun Tzu. stuff where the barbarian reflects the Medusa's gaze back at her by angling the blade of his axe, where the giant slayer swims across the atlantic ocean for 6 weeks in platemail, slaying 9 sea serpents on the 5th, where the holy Samurai slays the great demon lord who plagues his clan, not with a +5 holy demonbane katana, but with an ordinary wooden boken.
a system where a skilled actress, assassin, politician and puppeteer could charm the influence of an entire kingdom and inspire them to rebel against the evil witch king, not with a vancian spell, but through the magic of the sheer influence behind her words
a system where the epic assassin can reach such levels of stealth, he can dissapear from plain sight, not because of an invisibility spell, but due to timing his movements with your narrowing field of perception.
a system where the epic doctor can, through sheer medical prowess with neither a gesture nor incantation, ressurect the dead by simply touching the appropriate nerve and restarting a halted heartbeat
but for such a system to work, spellcasters would have to be pretty darn epic and use a different set of mechanics than they do now.
If that's the trash level of players available or if I was stuck with those who only want to play casters/powergame I wouldn't even run the game. I would find other players to game with or a game that is not a 3rd ed derivative that encourages this kind poor thinking
you assume that because i know parties that don't like playing trapfinders or healbots, that you think it is safe to assume i am in a all caster powergaming party of munchkins. that's not the case.
our parties are quite suboptimal. we just like having an alternative to one out of of eight to twelve people being shoehorned into playing a rogue or healbot via dice contest.
our party is actually quite slim on dedicated full casters, dedicated healers, and dedicated trapfinders last i checked, it was martially loaded, though most of the martials were half casters and prestige classed stuff like bards, oracles, and eldritch knights. hardly powergamed.
You assume I think it needs a fix. If it isn't broken, don't try to fix it.This gives me a good insight into your thought process and how we have ended up with such a poorly defined game.
Pro tip: your fix is crap and doesn't address the material aspect of the spell - the free 30 gp saddle you get at the end.
Is not Mount a Summon spell? Last I checked the horse disappeared at the end of a Summon spell, since it's the same horse every time, just like any other Summon.
With your fix the mount needs a rider to move. What if you need to send the horse out to someone who is wounded or it's too risky to reach in a battlefield (think of the movie Warhorse in the middle of no mans land)? What if I want to send the mount off to allies with some supplies - and they are 50 feet away? The sending the horse out to pick up someone wounded (as a low level option) is a classic trope, your fix turns the horse into a statue if it doesn't have a rider. Pass
That's the price you pay for "cutting out loopholes" as you ordered me to do. If the horse is capable of moving without a rider, the "exploits" you mentioned still exist in full force. Be more specific with your criteria next time.
And then the powergamers just move on to the next cheese - sending in Summon monster I or II to set off traps.
This is already a common practice for those who don't have Mount.
For a moment contain your rage
Conjuration needs to hit with a real bat (not a nerf one) until it is bloody and complies with the rest of the game. Those summoned resources should be tracked and inventoried.
This gives me a good insight into your thought process and how we have ended up with such a poorly defined game.
Pro tip: your fix is crap
:rolleyes:
/3rd ed defender mentality and think of conjuration in relation to other spells - say evo.
Evo has several built in limitations while conjuration abuse and use is limited to duration and the imagination of the caster. This is bad game design plain and simple.
You should not cast fireball on your party to hit the badguys mixed in melee with your allies. Evo has to also deal with SR and energy resistance. Conjuration needs some limitations also - it doesn't need people here handwaving away issues because they think it isn't "broken". Hell, it isn't even a case of being broken (which mechanically it is), it's the fact that the extent of the ability and range of use is poorly defined, if DEFINED AT ALL.
You may notice I already mentioned this.
The magic system as a whole scales up too well. Utility spells like Mount, Overland Flight, and Teleport are NOT THE PROBLEM. Spells that obsolete skills (Invisibility, Spider Climb, Charm Person) and spells that LITERALLY break the game (Pretty much anything on the 8th and 9th level spell lists), and Summons/The COnjuration school as a whole are the problem.
It needs an entire rework to make casters not the be-all, end-all in social superiority and in-combat terrain mastery, not a piece-meal pick and choose of the Flavor of the Week "broken" spell that's being used to make up for a deficit in the party.
Focus on a total rework or on the big picture, not patching the little holes while Bruce has already eaten half your ship.
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Focus on a total rework or on the big picture, not patching the little holes while Bruce has already eaten half your ship.
I have stated in multiple threads on the subject that ALL spells need to be reworked. Casting needs to be reworked. Spell function and purpose needs to be fixed and not step on the toes of other classes.
Mount was just an example brought up earlier in the thread - I expanded on the problems and abuses with a good fix - a fix that I would apply to varying levels to all conjuration spells (whenever a creature is brought into play).
When did I say otherwise?
When did I say that this spell and a few other spells were the only problem? I didn't. In every thread that I have commented on the issue I have advocated a TOTAL RE-WRITE of the spells and casting to make this game salvageable. So you are framing my argument incorrectly.
I don't think we are arguing against each other on the issue, you just think my fix goes too far. I don't.
Focus on a total rework or on the big picture, not patching the little holes while Bruce has already eaten half your ship.I have stated in multiple threads on the subject that ALL spells need to be reworked. Casting needs to be reworked. Spell function and purpose needs to be fixed and not step on the toes of other classes.
Mount was just an example brought up earlier in the thread - I expanded on the problems and abuses with a good fix - a fix that I would apply to varying levels to all conjuration spells (whenever a creature is brought into play).
When did I say otherwise?
When did I say that this spell and a few other spells were the only problem? I didn't. In every thread that I have commented on the issue I have advocated a TOTAL RE-WRITE of the spells and casting to make this game salvageable. So you are framing my argument incorrectly.I don't think we are arguing against each other on the issue, you just think my fix goes too far. I don't.
i agree the casting system needs to be reworked. but the only way to do that is to create a new edition.
i personally don't like these "fire once and forget" casters the vancian system produces. i'd rather have a point pool like Psionics/JRPGS alongside a handful of abilities i can use At Will that fit my theme.
the healer might have to spend 'mana' on the bigger heals, but the smaller heals, they can cast all day long, or the necromancer may need to expend 'mana' to raise a corpse, but has a lesser corroding touch they can spam all day that deals damage. while a pyromancer would require 'mana' for the big explosions, but can shoot small single target balls of fire at will.
the combination of Vancian casting and nearly unlimited spell access are what make the wizard so overpowered.
the fact they have a handful of level appropriate spells per day, that only their top 3 or so spell levels truly matter, and the heavy all or nothing nature of their spells. means their spells have to become pretty darn powerful because they aren't casting it more than a handful of times in one day.
the moment you include vancian casting, you do one of two things.
you create a system that depends more on physical power to achieve things because casting does nothing special
or
the spellcasters become so overpowered that the characters become dependent on extremely short adventuring days.
the moment you ditch vancian casting for a JRPG/Psionics style mana pool mechanic. you make it easier to produce means to extend the adventuring day.
for example. regenerating an amount of mana per round out of combat equal to casting stat modifier becomes possible.
While this would require such a massive overhaul it's more fit for a second edition of the game (if ever), it would be very possible to make vancian spellcasting that is balanced even at higher levels.
There are ways to make the 15-minute adventuring day go away without getting rid of vancian casting, by preventing easy repreparation. The issue of the 15-minute adventuring day is that the load of best spells is quite limited in number, but at the same time preparing the spells again is simple and with low risk unless the DM designs for there to be risk.
Basically, to remove that issue one can either do as Lumiere suggests and make the highest-level spells (more or less) unlimited in number, or make preparation harder in various ways (take more time, cost more resources, cannot be done on the road, there's a multitude of options).
I prefer the second alternative as I think vancian magic feels unique and flavorful, and I'm so goddamn tired of mana systems and similar for hundreds of computer games. Not saying those systems are "computer gamey" per se, or that that would be bad either, just that I've used them in computer games for such a long time I find vancian magic to stick out from the crowd.
thejeff: That might be part of the solution but has issues of it's own. The thing is, it has to be enough - if it isn't, the matter is just made worse. Any solution that just relies on additional time to prepare is also reliant on the DM putting on a time limit on the adventure (or repopulation of monsters etc). This might often work in practice, but having that as only limitation is kind of bad from a rules design point of view.
I think the main issues with the current casting system/casters are:
Issue 1: Too general application/availability of spells making other classes defining features look tame (invisibility makes stealth seem tame, knock threatens disable device etc).
Solution 1: More specialized casters. A caster that wants to become invisible might have to be an illusionist or similar, and not have access to transmutations etc easily.
Issue 2: 15-minute adventuring day; the party resting after a short number of encounters to maximize availability of highest-effect spells.
Solution 2: Allowing casters to have both low-effect high-availability abilities and high-effect low-availability abilities and having the second of those actually be limited (not just "sleep in a rope trick and woops they're back).
Issue 3: Exponential increase in power as the previously limited spells become more or less unlimited and the highest-power spells increase in power.
Solution 3: Partly solved by higher specialization, but can also be solved through lower amount of spells per day (more specifically, amount of spells per day should increase linearly).
These are too large issues to solve in the current edition without MAJOR houseruling and playtesting, and as I mostly play lower levels I don't suffer as much from those issues, but if they remake the system for PF2 (whenever that comes), I hope they consider those.
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(more specifically, amount of spells per day should increase linearly).
Believe it or not, number of spells per day already does increase linearly; for a wizard, the progression rate is about three spell slots per character level. It's a very fast progression, but it is linear, Pearls of Power notwithstanding.
Access to spell levels per day increases quadratically, though, and access to utility magic items is likewise not linear.
Yes, magic in pathfinder is much more powerful than mundane means. This however has absolutely nothing to do with the Vancian casting system.
The true problem is the dependency on magic at higher levels, even by martials. Anti-magic screws everyone over, even the fighter and the rogue who are so dependent on all their magical gear. This is the Christmas Tree effect.
Magic is still heavily relied on even at low levels. The light spell saves people who either forgot torches or were trying to save money. Cure light wounds is often garnered as an important wand to keep on hand. Detect Magic becomes staple for pinpointing all the magical gear and magical traps (that don't have magical aura to hide themselves). To top it all, the best way to deal with magic is more magic.
Magically healing 1d8+Caster Level in 6 seconds (along with automatically stabilizing) will always beat healing your level with 8 hours of rest.
(more specifically, amount of spells per day should increase linearly).Believe it or not, number of spells per day already does increase linearly; for a wizard, the progression rate is about three spell slots per character level. It's a very fast progression, but it is linear, Pearls of Power notwithstanding.
Access to spell levels per day increases quadratically, though, and access to utility magic items is likewise not linear.
Basically you're right, though intelligence boosters change it somewhat too. Sorry 'bout that.