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...Yep but that is not the same as the 12 years of extended childhood i have seen from some, or the selecting majors they damn well knew ahead of time had piss poor job prospects but sounded fun and then the inevitable b!++$ing and crying about how hard it is to pay for. If you want the pricey schools or the fun classes you do not need for a job fine, suck it up and pay for it. Jessica is a fine example, she did what she wanted and ownsTo anyone giving students grief for needing relief on their loans (I'm looking--no, glaring--at you, Andrew R) allow me to share a couple anecdotes.
When my mom first went to college in 1974, tuition for a semester was $200. She took out loans for tuition and paid for room and board by working as an undergraduate assistant, which paid $12/hr. Not the equivalent of, mook jobs on campus paid 12/hr in the 1970s. She graduated with a masters and went directly into a professional job and paid all her student loans back within one year. Oh, and her student loans were at 1%, which was considered high back then.
My girlfriend got a free ride for her undergraduate through a scholarship program that her father's work provided. All kids of employees get a free ride as long as they keep a 3.0 GPA. As a cost-saving measure, her dad's employer nixed the scholarship program--the only reason he'd continued to work there for 20 years, so that he could provide his children with a quality education, yanked from under him.
She decided to continue on with her Master's degree. The two years (that's 4 semesters, 48 credits) of graduate study cost her $60,000!! The base interest rate today is 6.8%, which is higher than home or car loans. The best job available on campus paid $8.50 an hour, and that one used skills she learned as an undergraduate! Her loan payments are more than our rent, and will take a decade to repay. She got extremely fortunate and landed a job making $40k, but because of her loan payments, she still lives like a student.
It is not about "what i want" it is about being a responsible adult. You want to spend 12 years to get a bachelors in philosophy have fun, but pay your bills and don't gripe when jobs don't come rolling in.
Give it time. Soon enough you will need a uni exam to be allowed to clean.We're heading in that direction, it looks like. And that's terrifying.
No argument there.
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...Yep but that is not the same as the 12 years of extended childhood i have seen from some, or the selecting majors they damn well knew ahead of time had piss poor job prospects but sounded fun and then the inevitable b!++$ing and crying about how hard it is to pay for. If you want the pricey schools or the fun classes you do not need for a job fine, suck it up and pay for it. Jessica is a fine example, sheTo anyone giving students grief for needing relief on their loans (I'm looking--no, glaring--at you, Andrew R) allow me to share a couple anecdotes.
When my mom first went to college in 1974, tuition for a semester was $200. She took out loans for tuition and paid for room and board by working as an undergraduate assistant, which paid $12/hr. Not the equivalent of, mook jobs on campus paid 12/hr in the 1970s. She graduated with a masters and went directly into a professional job and paid all her student loans back within one year. Oh, and her student loans were at 1%, which was considered high back then.
My girlfriend got a free ride for her undergraduate through a scholarship program that her father's work provided. All kids of employees get a free ride as long as they keep a 3.0 GPA. As a cost-saving measure, her dad's employer nixed the scholarship program--the only reason he'd continued to work there for 20 years, so that he could provide his children with a quality education, yanked from under him.
She decided to continue on with her Master's degree. The two years (that's 4 semesters, 48 credits) of graduate study cost her $60,000!! The base interest rate today is 6.8%, which is higher than home or car loans. The best job available on campus paid $8.50 an hour, and that one used skills she learned as an undergraduate! Her loan payments are more than our rent, and will take a decade to repay. She got extremely fortunate and landed a job making $40k, but because of her loan payments, she still lives like a student.
Okay, so what if you major in something that is always needed but the market tanks before you can graduate? Does that absolve us in your eyes?
College is extremely overpriced, and loans are difficult to pay even if you can get a job right off the bat. However, we're at a place in this country where your (grossly simplified) options are "I majored in something I love, I'm in debt for life," "I majored in something profitable, but I'm miserable," and "I can't afford college, so I can't qualify for a better job." So which should we pick?
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...Yep but that is not the same as the 12 years of extended childhood i have seen from some, or the selecting majors they damn well knew ahead of time had piss poor job prospects but sounded fun and then the inevitable b!++$ing and crying about how hard it is to pay for. If you want the pricey schools or the fun classes you do not need for a job fine, suck it up and pay for it.To anyone giving students grief for needing relief on their loans (I'm looking--no, glaring--at you, Andrew R) allow me to share a couple anecdotes.
When my mom first went to college in 1974, tuition for a semester was $200. She took out loans for tuition and paid for room and board by working as an undergraduate assistant, which paid $12/hr. Not the equivalent of, mook jobs on campus paid 12/hr in the 1970s. She graduated with a masters and went directly into a professional job and paid all her student loans back within one year. Oh, and her student loans were at 1%, which was considered high back then.
My girlfriend got a free ride for her undergraduate through a scholarship program that her father's work provided. All kids of employees get a free ride as long as they keep a 3.0 GPA. As a cost-saving measure, her dad's employer nixed the scholarship program--the only reason he'd continued to work there for 20 years, so that he could provide his children with a quality education, yanked from under him.
She decided to continue on with her Master's degree. The two years (that's 4 semesters, 48 credits) of graduate study cost her $60,000!! The base interest rate today is 6.8%, which is higher than home or car loans. The best job available on campus paid $8.50 an hour, and that one used skills she learned as an undergraduate! Her loan payments are more than our rent, and will take a decade to repay. She got extremely fortunate and landed a job making $40k, but because of her loan payments, she still lives like a student.
Do what you want but own your choice
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The problem with the current education finance system is very similar to the problem with the mortgage crisis. It is the lack of verification of the borrowers ability to repay. Students are sold on college as the means to make more money over their lifetime and in return you may need to pay some of those extra earnings back as loans. This is a fair set up, if getting a college degree actually leads you to making more money so that you can repay the loans. The problem is that these days a college degree does not necessarily make you enough extra money that paying back the student loans is feasible. The money loaned out is based on speculation and is equivalent to doing mortgages with stated income (so called liar loans).
That's not the problem. The problem is that the United States in particular, has chosen to make education, like medicine, so g+* d&~m fiendishly expensive. We're creating a tiered society where the rich don't have to worry about health care and education, and we have people like Andrew telling those of the lower economic status, that you should forget about any aspirations past high school save for trade school so that you can be a proper wage slave.
"Liberal Arts! Art! that's for rich spoiled kids like Bruce Wayne! Take that fool idea out of your head, and go learn a trade that'll get you a job at Wal-Mart!"
No, im telling you to grow up and pay your debts and be smart enough not to rack up so much debt. 12 years to get a bachelors in philosophy is a fools choice but i could care less as long as you pay what you owe. And trust me, i see many rich kids throw away years in college so mommy and daddy can pay for them to extend their childhood another decade and only hope the freeloading trash gets dropped on their ass when the parents wise up to them.
And a plumber or electrician is far from working at walmart. you are more likely to see the fools degree holders working there than a tradeschool grad.
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You might be trying to do the right thing and would simply like help if it is out there but i am so tired of hearing it from so many college kids. I mean half of the occupy movement was whiny kids wanting out of the bills they chose to rack up for themselves. That said, you are working and ex military so you are an example of folks that do deserve some help and that maybe the cost of education is too damn high
Thanks for the opinion, Rush. You truly are a fountain.
Yeah, if you make a bad decision when you're 18 you should definitely be screwed for the rest of your life. The important thing is that the banks get their money, one way or another.
I like the way Germany handles its higher education. Bachelors degrees are basically free and they culturally encourage math and science foci.
I must say that I am grateful to have gone through the Aussie system. Combination of Commonwealth grant and interest free deferment of Uni fees meant that my University Engineering (4 year) education only cost ~$24,000 - which was automatically deferred and got paid off through the compulsory taxation repayments in three and a half years.
I am a strong believer in government subsidised and affordable tertiary education for everybody - including people who choose what some would refer to as 'soft' degrees like Arts and Philosophy, etc. But that's just me.
The concept of full fee payment for all just really splits the accessibility of tertiary education down class lines.
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Yeah, if you make a bad decision when you're 18 you should definitely be screwed for the rest of your life. The important thing is that the banks get their money, one way or another.I like the way Germany handles its higher education. Bachelors degrees are basically free and they culturally encourage math and science foci.
That would be great and would help us get back on the top in scientific advances and whatnot
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You know some people go to college for more than just their job prospects, right? And a community college may not provide the quality of education that they want.
I learned far more in my two years at a community college than I did in my subsequent two years at ASU. The community college classes were smaller, and the instructors weren't all about the research. Then again, we are talking about ASU...
Would I have appreciated a better undergraduate education? You bet. But I simply couldn't afford it. There is something to be said for practicality.
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Yeah, if you make a bad decision when you're 18 you should definitely be screwed for the rest of your life. The important thing is that the banks get their money, one way or another.
Would you say the same of a 18 year old trying to buy an overpriced car or wasting loaned money to travel and have fun? For honest people trying to get a real education yes it is too expensive. For extending childhoods and playing with majors that maybe should not even exist too bad for being that dumb.
Yeah, if you make a bad decision when you're 18 you should definitely be screwed for the rest of your life. The important thing is that the banks get their money, one way or another.Would you say the same of a 18 year old trying to buy an overpriced car or wasting loaned money to travel and have fun? For honest people trying to get a real education yes it is too expensive. For extending childhoods and playing with majors that maybe should not even exist too bad for being that dumb.
Can you point out statistics that show this sudden plague of irresponsible kids blowing college loan money on frivolity?
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The problem isn't people going to college for 12 years for a philosophy degree, the problem is that the cost of college has out paced the value of the education. Instead of demand falling off naturally because people can't afford it, the government and predatory lending institutions are propping the high costs of college through loans which in turn allow the institutions to raise costs. This issue is not about "responsibility" it is about near criminal exploitation of a vital national resource, the education of our children and young adults. The cost of college is criminal, and the scam to lure people in is very good, supported by a whole culture regarding what college is and how it benefits you. People should not be "sold" on going to college, but that is exactly what happens. Education is the most important thing in society these days, it should not be a commodity to be trade on the stock exchange casino.
Contributor
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Hmmm...
I'm a single dad. I have two master's degrees. I paid off my undergraduate loans. But the truth is, I didn't plan to be single and taking care of a 3 year old much of the time. It's not easy getting work at a professional salary or wage with a kid at home and childcare costing most of my income after rent.
A year ago we were homeless and living on friend's couches and in my car. I get freelance writing work, and it's compatible with being a dad, but it doesn't pay much.
I will never be able to pay off my loans or even pay the monthly cost, at least for 3 more years (when she can go to school). This wasn't intentional.
The same situation affects single moms.
Yeah, if you make a bad decision when you're 18 you should definitely be screwed for the rest of your life. The important thing is that the banks get their money, one way or another.Would you say the same of a 18 year old trying to buy an overpriced car or wasting loaned money to travel and have fun? For honest people trying to get a real education yes it is too expensive. For extending childhoods and playing with majors that maybe should not even exist too bad for being that dumb.
An 18yr old can't get a car loan, they actually check your ability to repay, unless they have a job and the numbers actually work out. Verifying the borrowers ability to repay is a vital protection for the borrower, to keep people from making a hasty in the moment decision which has severe long term consequences. They don't do anything like this for college, hence why it is predatory.
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I learned far more in my two years at a community college than I did in my subsequent two years at ASU. The community college classes were smaller, and the instructors weren't all about the research. Then again, we are talking about ASU...
Should I cross that one off my list, if I end up in Phoenix?
I learned far more in my two years at a community college than I did in my subsequent two years at ASU. The community college classes were smaller, and the instructors weren't all about the research. Then again, we are talking about ASU...Should I cross that one off my list, if I end up in Phoenix?
Probably not a bad idea. ASU still has a reputation as a party school, even though it's no longer #1 in the country like it was a few years back.
Probably not a bad idea. ASU still has a reputation as a party school, even though it's no longer #1 in the country like it was a few years back.
I doubt ASU is any worse than most state universities, but going from classes of 20-25 students with plenty of instructor interaction (community college) to classes with 300+ students in which my instructor interaction consisted of filing out Scantron forms (ASU), well...that wasn't a change for the better.
As always, YMMV.
This entire thread is a wonderful set of anecdotes about what is now starting to be called the "Higher Education Bubble".
It really is very similar to the housing bubble that blew our economy into smithereens in 2007. And before it is resolved we are likely to see a lot of colleges go bankrupt.
I worked my way through college in the late 70s, early 80s. I borrowed a couple thousand dollars total but the vast bulk of the cost I earned working FULL TIME (working the graveyard shift on top of that) at the same time I was taking a full class load (sometimes up to 18 semester hours) in physics. I lived in a tiny apartment off-campus (because dorm fees were too high even back then) and commuted to school and work by bicycle (because I couldn't afford a car).
I have two kids, one just graduated college tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and one in community college now. Neither of them wanted "the stress" of dealing with even a part time job while going to school.
Sure, school costs more now than it did then, but if my kids did what I did, they'd be far, far less in debt (and I wouldn't be paying for their gas, room and board, books, computers, food and entertainment...)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This blog talks about skyrocketing tuition.
Re: Paying off debt. IF a charity wants to help someone pay off a debt, more power to 'em. The government shouldn't forgive college loan debt though.
Nice to see 'Highly Regarded Expert' resort to name calling "Thanks for the opinion, Rush. You truly are a fountain." I prefer to read it as "I can't refute Andrew's point, so I'll resort to name calling." (It is especially funny considering Rush Limbaugh's background.)
And believe me, even with no degree to show for it, I'd rather still be paying off student loans, then how I got the money to pay them off.
I'll put in a plug for Colorado. Best place in country to live. (Or has been, but the California influx is changing the state.)
Can you point out statistics that show this sudden plague of irresponsible kids blowing college loan money on frivolity?Yeah, if you make a bad decision when you're 18 you should definitely be screwed for the rest of your life. The important thing is that the banks get their money, one way or another.Would you say the same of a 18 year old trying to buy an overpriced car or wasting loaned money to travel and have fun? For honest people trying to get a real education yes it is too expensive. For extending childhoods and playing with majors that maybe should not even exist too bad for being that dumb.
I only know of two people who did something stupid with their loan check- one got a car (or made a sizableppayment towards one) and another went away within the country to visit family. The car onerreally regretted it, the one who went to see family did not.
I think what MK was talking about is precisely what I've done: go to community college on the cheap, take a bunch of boring gen eds, and transfer to a proper university. Take upper levels there once your 101s are out of the way.
In retrospect, I wish I had done this and if there are any young people out there who take this advice, it will probably be the most positive karma generating thing Comrade Meatrace has ever done.
Otoh, school sucks.
Nice to see 'Highly Regarded Expert' resort to name calling "Thanks for the opinion, Rush. You truly are a fountain." I prefer to read it as "I can't refute Andrew's point, so I'll resort to name calling." (It is especially funny considering Rush Limbaugh's background.)
Channeling right wing talkers can get you mistaken for one. Just sayin'.
This entire thread is a wonderful set of anecdotes about what is now starting to be called the "Higher Education Bubble".
It really is very similar to the housing bubble that blew our economy into smithereens in 2007. And before it is resolved we are likely to see a lot of colleges go bankrupt.
I worked my way through college in the late 70s, early 80s. I borrowed a couple thousand dollars total but the vast bulk of the cost I earned working FULL TIME (working the graveyard shift on top of that) at the same time I was taking a full class load (sometimes up to 18 semester hours) in physics. I lived in a tiny apartment off-campus (because dorm fees were too high even back then) and commuted to school and work by bicycle (because I couldn't afford a car).
I have two kids, one just graduated college tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and one in community college now. Neither of them wanted "the stress" of dealing with even a part time job while going to school.
Sure, school costs more now than it did then, but if my kids did what I did, they'd be far, far less in debt (and I wouldn't be paying for their gas, room and board, books, computers, food and entertainment...)
Do you think they would have graduated? If they got a job, I mean.
It is not about "what i want" it is about being a responsible adult. You want to spend 12 years to get a bachelors in philosophy have fun, but pay your bills and don't gripe when jobs don't come rolling in.
Citizen R., I don't know if you're just talking out of your ass, but it shouldn't take 12 years to get a bachelor's degree in anything.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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It is not about "what i want" it is about being a responsible adult. You want to spend 12 years to get a bachelors in philosophy have fun, but pay your bills and don't gripe when jobs don't come rolling in.Citizen R., I don't know if you're just talking out of your ass, but it shouldn't take 12 years to get a bachelor's degree in anything.
A bit of an exaggeration (assuming he's not talking corner cases of course) but it *does* take longer to get a degree on average. I think it's up to 6 years now? Was 5 in the 90's on average.
That's not counting the people who don't get the k-12 education to actually *enter* college. (Those 050 classes you have to take to get up to speed aren't free.)
It is not about "what i want" it is about being a responsible adult. You want to spend 12 years to get a bachelors in philosophy have fun, but pay your bills and don't gripe when jobs don't come rolling in.Citizen R., I don't know if you're just talking out of your ass, but it shouldn't take 12 years to get a bachelor's degree in anything.
I believe "kids screw around these days more than they used to" is his point. I'm sure 12 years is an exaggeration.
--Oops, wasn't expecting people in between:
That being said, from my interactions in the past with Citizen R., I am making an assumption that he, like I, am working class. And, he's right, there are a lot of people out there who just go to liberal arts school because it's the thing to do or they don't know what they want to do with their lives yet.
And that's fine with me, and, after the Glorious People's Revolution, education will be free from kindergarten to PhD programs.
In the meantime, there are a lot of kids out there coming out of school with tens of thousands of dollars worth of debt that they will be hard pressed to pay off as the economic situation fails to improve for everybody except the plutocracy.
And, while I am more than willing to march around with a sign reading "Cancel Student Debt!", any young people out there reading this might do best to think long and hard about their education and their future.
They might also want to join the Commonwealth Party of Galt (M-L).
Vive le Galt!
Nice to see 'Highly Regarded Expert' resort to name calling "Thanks for the opinion, Rush. You truly are a fountain." I prefer to read it as "I can't refute Andrew's point, so I'll resort to name calling." (It is especially funny considering Rush Limbaugh's background.)Channeling right wing talkers can get you mistaken for one. Just sayin'.
Knee-jerk accusing people of channeling "right wing talkers" just because you disagree with them can get you mistaken for a left wing robot too.
Goes both ways expert.
Blah blah blah.
As the board's resident communist, I'm going to favorite Comrade Expert's post, but, really, do we need to have this argument in here?
Let it go, say I.
Nice to see 'Highly Regarded Expert' resort to name calling "Thanks for the opinion, Rush. You truly are a fountain." I prefer to read it as "I can't refute Andrew's point, so I'll resort to name calling." (It is especially funny considering Rush Limbaugh's background.)Channeling right wing talkers can get you mistaken for one. Just sayin'.Knee-jerk accusing people of channeling "right wing talkers" just because you disagree with them can get you mistaken for a left wing robot too.
Goes both ways expert.
If it sounds like Rush, it may be Rush. Just sayin'.
Spewing unsubstantiated talking points is old as dirt. It's an industry.
Blah blah blah.
As the board's resident communist, I'm going to favorite Comrade Expert's post, but, really, do we need to have this argument in here?
Let it go, say I.
I'm with the goblin. Let's not bring this any further down than it already is.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Nice to see 'Highly Regarded Expert' resort to name calling "Thanks for the opinion, Rush. You truly are a fountain." I prefer to read it as "I can't refute Andrew's point, so I'll resort to name calling." (It is especially funny considering Rush Limbaugh's background.)Channeling right wing talkers can get you mistaken for one. Just sayin'.Knee-jerk accusing people of channeling "right wing talkers" just because you disagree with them can get you mistaken for a left wing robot too.
Goes both ways expert.
I just found the Rush bashing funny considering his background.
OT:
Aside, I've also appriciated both Rush and David not name dropping each other in their commentary/shows. I didn't even know David and Rush were brothers until I read David's bio.
So accusing someone of parroting a conservative who didn't go to college himself and was successful is what made me chuckle.
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Anyway, if it sounds like Rush it may be Rush.
I should have seen this coming.
Is 'minimum wage with no debt' or 'salary with crippling debt' really a choice?
it really isn't. And that's the problem.
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I just find these conversational tactics despicable. It reminds me of a conversation I had at a dinner table with friends from varied backgrounds lately.
One individual was bemoaning the rotten economy and how he had been laid off and could not find a job. At the end of his personal history he laid the blame at the feet of George W. Bush.
Another friend at the table said "Wait, Bush hasn't been President for over four years now. In that time the national debt has increased by almost 50% and the deficit has doubled. We've added huge new social programs that are driving costs up across the entire economy and fuel costs, which are a core economic driver, have doubled. How is that George W. Bush's fault?"
To which the first guy said, and I quote: "What are you, some sort of pre-programmed Rush Limbaugh wannabe?"
This caused a bit of a conversational tussle with the first guy accusing the second guy of being a Rush clone and the second guy accusing the first guy of ignoring actual facts.
Eventually I got sick of it and it went like this:
Me: "Hey dude1, how long have you been listening to Rush Limbaugh?"
Dude1: "What! I would never listen to that racist homophobic right-wing liar."
Me: "Oh, then you don't actually know what he says then."
Dude1: "Of course I do!"
Me: "How?"
Dude1: "Well, he gets quoted all the time."
Me: "OK, so what, exactly, has he said about the economy?"
Dude1: "What Dude2 said!"
Me: "Hmmm. well, what Dude2 said are actual documentable, provable facts. So why is it a problem if Rush says them?"
Dude1: "They aren't true!"
Me: "Unfortunately, they actually are true. So your problem isn't that Dude2 made an inaccurate comment, your problem is that you believe he quoted someone you personally despise, when you actually have no idea at all what he said, and the things Dude2 said are actually 100% true."
Dude1: "I know a Rush clone when I hear one."
Me: "What you are doing is called 'guilt by association'. It's a tactic intended to discredit the PERSON you are debating by associating them with a person or thing you believe others will find despicable. Can you actually refute the facts of what Dude2 said?"
Dude1: "If Rush said them, then they're a lie."
Me: "OK, so you can't then. All you can do is respond to factual statements with personal attacks. At least we have that settled. Can we talk about the Superbowl now?"
I have two kids, one just graduated college tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and one in community college now. Neither of them wanted "the stress" of dealing with even a part time job while going to school.
Excuse me the personal question, but what you, as their parent, did before they went to college instill in them proper appreciation of self-acquired money, hard work. What did you do to teach them how to manage their time so they could handle studying and working at the same time? Have you taught them how to handle their finances to be more self-reliant economically?
Sure, school costs more now than it did then, but if my kids did what I did, they'd be far, far less in debt (and I wouldn't be paying for their gas, room and board, books, computers, food and entertainment...)
From your paragraph above I guess that the primary problem was with their unwillingness to work or at least emotional unpreparedness.
Putting that aside for that matter: What actual options were available to them that would allow them to repeat your success? What kind of work they could perform while studying - would the earnings be enough to make them independent of your help and save something from the loans or would they be only able to be independent without saving on loans or maybe save something on loans while still being dependent on you?Depending upon your income and savings available - have you considered lending money for tuition to them on better financial terms instead of them getting a student loan?
I have two kids, one just graduated college tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and one in community college now. Neither of them wanted "the stress" of dealing with even a part time job while going to school.Excuse me the personal question, but what you, as their parent, did before they went to college instill in them proper appreciation of self-acquired money, hard work. What did you do to teach them how to manage their time so they could handle studying and working at the same time? Have you taught them how to handle their finances to be more self-reliant economically?
Sure, school costs more now than it did then, but if my kids did what I did, they'd be far, far less in debt (and I wouldn't be paying for their gas, room and board, books, computers, food and entertainment...)From your paragraph above I guess that the primary problem was with their unwillingness to work or at least emotional unpreparedness.
Putting that aside for that matter: What actual options were available to them that would allow them to repeat your success? What kind of work they could perform while studying - would the earnings be enough to make them independent of your help and save something from the loans or would they be only able to be independent without saving on loans or maybe save something on loans while still being dependent on you?Depending upon your income and savings available - have you considered lending money for tuition to them on better financial terms instead of them getting a student loan?
Good questions Drejk. Believe me my wife and I are at a complete loss to explain why our kids have a completely different approach to dealing with life than we do. We believe that we did all we could to teach them the same life lessons we learned as kids, but based on the evidence in front of us, we clearly didn't do enough. Not sure what else we could have done, but can't deny reality.
Unfortunately my financial situation is not such that I can loan my kids $50,000 to go to school, on any terms whatsoever. Wish I could, but there it is.
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I really didn't expect this conversation to blow up like it did. It's interesting, but lets stay on topic please. The right vs. left side discussion is the road to no mans land.
I'll put in a plug for Colorado. Best place in country to live. (Or has been, but the California influx is changing the state.)I loved what I saw when we visited family for Christmas there. I'm looking at U of C Denver right now, but any other suggestions or experience would be appreciated.
Depending on what you want to learn there are many options in Colorado. Denver University is considered in some areas to be comparable to the best schools in the country. University of Colorado (Boulder) is a great school with a very good academic reputation, but it's also known to be a party school with real problems with drugs and alcohol. Colorado State University (Fort Collins) is a very good school without the academic reputation of CU or DU but it's a very good school and a bit cheaper than either of those. For engineering or hard sciences the Colorado School of Mines (Golden) is a great school, I know and work with several graduates and it has a solid national reputation for science and engineering.
My own daughter graduated from the University of Northern Colorado (Greeley), which is all we could afford, frankly. It's a good school but it's not on the same level as the others listed.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'll put in a plug for Colorado. Best place in country to live. (Or has been, but the California influx is changing the state.)I loved what I saw when we visited family for Christmas there. I'm looking at U of C Denver right now, but any other suggestions or experience would be appreciated.
I'd rather make a vain attempt to Improve Ohio.