the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move.
It's almost universally agreed that the intent is not for a creature to get two move actions and a standard.
For what it's worth:
Without Flyby Attack, a creature's attack and move happen in sequence. One happens first, then the other happens. It can move up to a target and attack, or it can attack a target and then move.
Flyby Attack lets the flying creature make its attack in the MIDDLE of its move. If, say, it has a fly speed of 50 feet, it could move from point A to point B fifty feet away, and make an attack at any target along the way.
Flyby Attack's handy against non-flying foes, really, since you can swoop down using part of your fly speed, attack the grounded foe, then fly back up into the air and out of reach with whatever fly speed for that round you have left.
The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
This makes it clear that Camp 1 is wrong - you cannot take a second move action. Cackling is a move action. You may not cackle while using this feat.
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The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.This makes it clear that Camp 1 is wrong - you cannot take a second move action. Cackling is a move action. You may not cackle while using this feat.
That's false. You can absolutely cackle using your standard action while swooping about with your move action.
--Schoolhouse Vrock
The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.This makes it clear that Camp 1 is wrong - you cannot take a second move action. Cackling is a move action. You may not cackle while using this feat.That's false. You can absolutely cackle using your standard action while swooping about with your move action.
--Schoolhouse Vrock
Citation? That would be a very reasonable house rule, but by RAW it is clearly prohibited.
The creature cannot take a second move action
You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.
Fly-By Attack lets you take a standard action while moving. Normally you would be able to take a move action in place of a standard action, but the quote language prohibits that.
Again, I'm not saying this makes sense, but this is the Rules forum and by RAW you couldn't use Cackle with this feat.
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That's false. You can absolutely cackle using your standard action while swooping about with your move action.
--Schoolhouse Vrock
Citation? That would be a very reasonable house rule, but by RAW it is clearly prohibited.
Fly-By Attack lets you take a standard action while moving. Normally you would be able to take a move action in place of a standard action, but the quote language prohibits that.Again, I'm not saying this makes sense, but this is the Rules forum and by RAW you couldn't use Cackle with this feat.
You can always trade your standard action to take a move.
You can take a move action in place of a standard action. However you're right, Fly-by Attack actually specifically prohibits taking another move action. I would hazard that that line was meant to clarify that Fly-by Attack doesn't provide additional actions, but RAW Fly-by Attack must be used with a Standard action, not a move taken with your standard.|
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Fly by attack does not allow you to take another move action to move your speed, not a move action in general. Not all move action involve movement. Drawing an item from a pack, drawing a weapon of you don't have bab +1, etc. Cackle is a move action that does not involve movement.
--Schoolhouse Vrock
Fly by attack does not allow you to take another move action to move your speed, not a move action in general.
Once again, citation?
The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
A witch can cackle madly as a move action.
Cackle is a move action. You may not take a second move action. Therefore, you cannot Fly-By Cackle. The feat says nothing about only prohibiting move actions that involve moving to different squares, it simple prohibits move actions. By RAW, Cackle/Fly-By Attack is an invalid combo.
Fly by attack does not allow you to take another move action to move your speed, not a move action in general.
This sentence doesn't parse. I can't tell if you're trying to say that you get a second move action as long as it's not used for movement.
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Fly by attack does not allow you to take another move action to move your speed, not a move action in general. Not all move action involve movement. Drawing an item from a pack, drawing a weapon of you don't have bab +1, etc. Cackle is a move action that does not involve movement.
--Schoolhouse Vrock
That may be what makes sense, but it is not RAW. Fly-by Attack specifically prohibits taking another move action, not moving, or movement, etc. That means, if it's a move action, you can't take it while using Fly-by Attack.
I always found the wording in Flyby to be pretty confusing.
Why does it say "the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move"
Wouldn't it make more sense to just put "the creature can take a move action and a standard action at any point during the move"
I don't get the 'another' part.
Why does it say "the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move"
Wouldn't it make more sense to just put "the creature can take a move action and a standard action at any point during the move"
I don't get the 'another' part.
Don't think of "standard action" as going together. Read it more like this: "the creature can take a move action, and (take) another, standard, action at any point during the move."
You can take another action during the move action you're using to fly around. The type of action you can take is standard.
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Jeez louise... You get your normal actions when you use Fly By Attack, one move action used to fly your speed and one standard action that can be used at any point during your movement.
Iconicallly this is for dragons to make strafing runs with their breath weapons. You could also make a vital strike, or cast a spell while moving. However I think it's highly obtuse thinking that you can't use your standard action to make what used to be called "move equivalent" actions in 3.5. The only thing this is limiting is taking another move action to move your speed which is an action unto itself under Move actions in the combat chapter.
If I'm flying my speed and I want to draw a potion out of my belt pouch without provoking an AoO because I'm threatened at the beginning of my move then drop it as a free action in my ally's space which is threatened at the end of my move I should be able to do this with fly by attack.
--Vrock the House
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Cackle is a move action. You may not take a second move action. Therefore, you cannot Fly-By Cackle. The feat says nothing about only prohibiting move actions that involve moving to different squares, it simple prohibits move actions. By RAW, Cackle/Fly-By Attack is an invalid combo.
I don't understand how you can say "By RAW...", when you earlier even quoted the rule "You can ALWAYS take a move action in place of a standard action." Always seems like, well, always to me.
Why does the one rule completely outweigh the other? Where's the citation for rules preference when they contradict? Probably should go with RAI at that point.
Cackle is a move action. You may not take a second move action. Therefore, you cannot Fly-By Cackle. The feat says nothing about only prohibiting move actions that involve moving to different squares, it simple prohibits move actions. By RAW, Cackle/Fly-By Attack is an invalid combo.I don't understand how you can say "By RAW...", when you earlier even quoted the rule "You can ALWAYS take a move action in place of a standard action." Always seems like, well, always to me.
Why does the one rule completely outweigh the other? Where's the citation for rules preference when they contradict? Probably should go with RAI at that point.
The rules preference is (as usual) specific overrides general. The general rule is that you may make a move action in place of a standard action, the specific rule is that you may not make a move action when using Fly-By Attack. Specific trumps general, so by RAW you may not make a move action in this case.
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Sure, as gamers we assume specific overrides general since that is the case in other games. But what I said was, "Where's the citation?" My search-fu has come up empty on specific overrides general in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.
You can't use that as your evidence of Rules as Written, unless it is actually written somewhere. I'm actually interested to see if someone can find it.
@ Rumpin: When you use flyby attack, you're basically using a move and a standard together. The restriction on saying that you can't take another move action after making a flyby attack is usually irrelevant because you wouldn't have any actions left at that point, so it seems more like it's there to specify that you don't have any actions left to take after doing one. (Honestly, it should just be called a full round action. The wording is quite clunky.)
Anyway, my main point is: Using your standard as a move action during the flyby attack is not the same as using another move action after the flyby attack, and that distinction is where the confusion here is coming from, I think.
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@ Rumpin: When you use flyby attack, you're basically using a move and a standard together. The restriction on saying that you can't take another move action after making a flyby attack is usually irrelevant because you wouldn't have any actions left at that point, so it seems more like it's there to specify that you don't have any actions left to take after doing one. (Honestly, it should just be called a full round action. The wording is quite clunky.)
Anyway, my main point is: Using your standard as a move action during the flyby attack is not the same as using another move action after the flyby attack, and that distinction is where the confusion here is coming from, I think.
The thing is, the feat doesn't specify before or after. It just says "The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack."
I think intent is pretty clear here, but what the feat actually says is different.
It's definitely a runner in the worst written feat competition.
Hmm... Good point.
It really does have its problems on wording.
Sorry for the bump, but there's a unique interpretation:
This creature can make [b}an attack before and after it moves while flying.
Prerequisite: Fly speed.
Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and [b]another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.
(Emphasis added)
That can be read to allow a creature with flyby attack to make a standard action attack, then move and take another standard action attack at any point during the move.
That seems like it breaks the action economy to me. Should this be reworded to match spring attack? (As a full round action while flying...)
Or should it be clarified that since the type of action isn't stated, flyby attack requires a standard action to activate?
DeciusBrutus, the reason it is different from Spring Attack is that spring attack allows only one action, an attack. However, Flyby attack is designed to give a standard action during the move. This is different from an attack action.
Spring Attack: single move combined with an attack at some point during the move.
Flyby Attack: single move combined with a standard action at some point during the move.
As stated before, one thing this allows is that dragons can breathe fire while flying over your head. There are other variations of course. :)
- Gauss
Gauss: Why isn't it written using parallel structure if the intent is parallel? Is the brief description simply flat-out wrong?
Perhaps I do not understand what your definition of parallel is.
The description is not wrong, attack is not always an 'attack action'. Breathing fire is an attack. Casting an offensive spell is an attack. There are many forms of attacks.
Spring attack specifically cites a single melee attack while Flyby attack specifically cites a standard action.
Could they have cleaned up the language? Sure. Welcome to Pathfinder. :)
- Gauss
This creature can make an attack before and after it moves while flying.
The description says it can attack before it moves and attack after it moves. The text implies that it can take a standard action as part of a move action.
Parrallel structure would be if it was written "As a full-round action while flying, you can move and take a standard action at any point during the move.", because that's how spring attack is phrased.
I agree as to what makes sense, but I can't justify what makes sense using the feat that was written.
Meh, Pathfinder is full of inconsistencies. But, the way the feat is written, while not crystal clear, is clear enough that when you move via a move action you may take a standard action at some point during that move.
- Gauss
Problem is, it's also clear that you get your regular standard action, in addition to the standard action you may make as part of the move.
I don't see how you are reading that DeciusBrutus. You get 1 move and 1 standard action per round. This feat only allows you to take the standard in the middle of your move (something you cannot normally do).
- Gauss
I don't see how you are reading that DeciusBrutus. You get 1 move and 1 standard action per round. This feat only allows you to take the standard in the middle of your move (something you cannot normally do).
- Gauss
Normal: A creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.
When flying, [a creature with flyby attack] can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move.
A [creature with flyby attack] can make an attack before and after it moves while flying.
(That's all quoted from the feat.)
Yes, it is quoted from Flyby Attack. The first is the normal section, the second is the benefit, while your third quote is the fluff. The fluff does not conflict with the benefit since the benefit can be used to perform what the fluff states.
So where is the conflict?
- Gauss
Put them together:
A creature with flyby attack while flying can take a standard action either before or after you take a move a move and another standard action at any point during the move.
That's the only that I can see to use the benefit to attack, move, and attack. (Which is what the fluff states: two attacks, with a move in between)
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I absolutely see what he is saying!
The text says: This creature can make an attack before and after it moves while flying.
Read that again ...make an attack before and after it moves would pretty clearly seem to indicate that the creature can:
Attack
Move
Attack (again)
In other words, TWO attacks and a move.
Regardless of what the attack is (breath weapon claw whatever, it would seem to imply the creature gets two attacks and a move with this feat.
Now, clearly this is not the intent of the feat, and the later text does spell that out BUT the feat is obviously poorly written and contains an obvious inconsistency in it's text.
I've seen both Jason and James say the same thing and agree the feat needs clarified / cleaned up.
Ahhhh, now I see what you mean. It appears the way the fluff is written is misleading. Sorry for being dense. :)
It looks like the fluff is in need of errata.
- Gauss
Oh, and clarify that performing a flyby attack is itself a full-round action.
Flyby Attack is not a full-round action though. It is a move + standard action. That does not equal a full-round action and is not intended to be a full-round action.
- Gauss