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Okay, so I have a player who is running a level 9 thundercaller bard. His favorite technique is using the thundercall performance to deal lots of damage and stun multiple times in a round. Basically what he does is start a thundercall performance, end it, then start another to deal 6d8 points of damage and 2 stun rolls. The problem is that many of the other players are feeling overshadowed by this damage output, especially the stun (I've had direct comments). We are a new fairly low-power group, this is my second time DMing and I'm not really familiar how to adjudicate the thundercaller. To make it worse, I already had him switch from a soundstriker, so he's been fairly tolerant with me. It's a little awkward to consider rule changes at this point, though they may be necessary.
For reference:
I have some questions regarding the use of this, as well as the use of this and two bard spells (exquisite accompaniment and virtuoso performance).
1. Is using two of the thundercall in a round legal? Does the bard simply produce a single performance effect while maintaining per round, or can he start/stop to use the thundercall effect multiple times in a round (so at 11th when he can start a performance as a swift action, 3 times a round)? What I'm really asking is how does the bard's performance work with thundercall - immediately when the performance starts, or at the beginning of a round while he is maintaining?
2. What is the benefit of using exquisite accompaniment? A bard can already maintain a performance as a free action, so how does this spell help?
3. With virtuoso performance, eh can start a second bardic performance. I have some concerns here: can he use this to do thundercall even more times in a round? If thundercall is indeed "maintained" and has an effect only once per round, this isn't too bad- he'll get two thundercall blasts per round, one from him, one from the performance spell. Otherwise, this could give him six in a round using his current strategy (three from start/stop on his own, 3 from the accompaniment).
Thanks for the help!
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Thunder Call is actually a Bardic Performance, so yeah, he can use Thundercall with move actions.
The real thing of it all is that he can only do this trick from 7th level to 12th.
Before 7th, it's a Standard action, period. At 7th, it's a Move action, and you can trade your Standard for a second Move. At 13th, however, it becomes a Swift, and you can't trade Standard or Move actions for Swift actions.
So, to answer your questions:
1) Yes, he can do two per round (until level 13 when it becomes Swift). There is no maintaining involved here--it's a one time effect at the cost of a performance round.
2) The "benefit" of exquisite accompaniment is that while maintaining a bardic music effect, you don't have to spend rounds of performances.
3) Thundercall is not maintained, so Virtuoso Performance won't affect it.
Here's the thing, though. This is a good ability--stunning is awesome, and he's doing a great job CCing with it. But not everything is going to be failing their saves all the time. The DC does scale, but not nearly as fast as Fort saves for big monsters--and remember, it doesn't affect undead or constructs at all (immune to effects that target fort), so it's not the be all end all.
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Before 7th, it's a Standard action, period. At 7th, it's a Move action, and you can trade your Standard for a second Move. At 13th, however, it becomes a Swift, and you can't trade Standard or Move actions for Swift actions.
"At 7th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a move action instead of a standard action. At 13th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a swift action."
At higher levels, is a bard forced to start performances faster? The rule doesn't say, "At 7th level, starting a bardic performance is a move action. . ." or "must start" it says "can start" - the language of a choice. It's relevant for this character, but also for any 13th level bard with quickened spells. "I used to be able to start singing, cast Quickened Moment of Greatness, and shoot my crossbow. Now that I'm better at everything, I can't."
Thunder Call is actually a Bardic Performance, so yeah, he can use Thundercall with move actions.
The real thing of it all is that he can only do this trick from 7th level to 12th.
Before 7th, it's a Standard action, period. At 7th, it's a Move action, and you can trade your Standard for a second Move. At 13th, however, it becomes a Swift, and you can't trade Standard or Move actions for Swift actions.
A bard does not lose the ability to start his performance as a move action ,he just gains the ability to do it as a swift action.You can still use a move to start a performance at 13th level and beyond.
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mlpindustries is right, thundercall is a bardic performance. It is described under the "Bardic Performance" heading:
A thundercaller gains the following types of bardic performance.
Thunder Call (Su): At 3rd level, the thundercaller can use her performance to unleash a deafening peal of thunder....
There is thus no reason to assume it doesn't follow typical rules for bardic performance, including the type of action required to activate it. Suggestion takes an additional standard action to activate but Thundercall does not have a similar specification.
However, it is unusual among bardic performances in that it is an instantaneous effect and probably could have used some clarification along these lines. A note similar to the one in Suggestion would have been helpful, but without that I'm not sure RAW covers this properly. Here's some thoughts with the disclaimer that there's a lot of personal opinion in here.
Comments on Rules
1. Is using two of the thundercall in a round legal? Does the bard simply produce a single performance effect while maintaining per round, or can he start/stop to use the thundercall effect multiple times in a round (so at 11th when he can start a performance as a swift action, 3 times a round)? What I'm really asking is how does the bard's performance work with thundercall - immediately when the performance starts, or at the beginning of a round while he is maintaining?
I'd say that the tundercall keys off when he uses the "start bardic performance" action. He could spend two move actions to unleash two thundercalls, but since the ability says "spend a round to create an effect" he will need to spend a separate round of bardic performance for each blast. Depending on how much combat you see this could chew up his performance rounds pretty quickly.
There's already been some comments on what happens with swift actions. It's an annoying issue, in my opinion, though Blueluck is right that you really shouldn't be less effective at level 13 than level 12.
2. What is the benefit of using exquisite accompaniment? A bard can already maintain a performance as a free action, so how does this spell help?
It also says that the bard doesn't have to spend performance rounds to maintain a performance, which can be nice if you run out of rounds often but generally isn't that useful. It also doesn't interact with thundercall at all if you go with my "takes effect on starting a performance" interpretation, since Exquisite Accompaniment doesn't reduce the cost for starting a performance.
3. With virtuoso performance, eh can start a second bardic performance. I have some concerns here: can he use this to do thundercall even more times in a round? If thundercall is indeed "maintained" and has an effect only once per round, this isn't too bad- he'll get two thundercall blasts per round, one from him, one from the performance spell. Otherwise, this could give him six in a round using his current strategy (three from start/stop on his own, 3 from the accompaniment).
Again, if you use the "activates on starting a performance" rule this won't give him extra uses of thundercall per round, since it doesn't affect the amount of time it takes to start a performance. It will let him start and maintain a second performance while Thundercalling - which will be a good thing if he uses it to keep Inspire Courage up, since this boosts the other party members and they will appreciate that. However, since it doubles the "start the second performance" cost he's now spending two rounds of performance for every thundercall, and five rounds of performance per round (four for two thundercalls and one for a maintained constant performance) is very expensive.
Comments on your situation
You could always house-rule that despite spending performance rounds Thundercall is a separate SU ability, requiring a standard action to activate, but I think that with the current rules text that would be a house rule and not RAW. You could talk with your player and see how he feels about that since he seems very understanding, but I'd suggest first trying some more subtle adjustments.
Ask him if he would be happy voluntarily only using one thundercall per round as a move action (or swift at level 13) which leaves him able to use his standard action for something else like spellcasting or a standard attack. Encourage him to use his buff abilities to help the other party members be more effective - he could start by activating Inspire Courage and casting a group buff like Haste or Good Hope, then in round 2 cast Versatile Performance and start to use one thundercall and one spell/attack in a round.
If you want to reduce thundercall's effectiveness you can also spread out enemies more or have them mix in with the thundercaller's allies so it's hard to use the ability on multiple targets effectively. Note also that getting hit by two thundercalls in a round doesn't stun you for two rounds, you just have to save twice.
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A bard does not lose the ability to start his performance as a move action ,he just gains the ability to do it as a swift action.You can still use a move to start a performance at 13th level and beyond.
In that case, at 13th level, a Thundercaller could start three performances per round, one swift, one move, and one standard. Each would deal 5d8 sonic damage, no save, no spell resistance, plus make 3 fortitude saves or be stunned for a round.
A 13th level Wizard could do all sorts of crazy things in a round too, so I'm not going to claim it's over-powered. It is interesting though!
Huh as much as I dig around I have to agree with the rest. Its legit. I never gave this archetype much value but now taking a closer look it is solid.
While it honestly is not the top end of damage that can be done or even control (Daze spell metamagic I am looking at you) it is a problem if it does overshadow a group with far less effective builds.
Honestly I think a better use would be to blast once a round and then cast a spell or start IC to help the rest of the team. Could still get a shot every round and yet be the team buffer bards should be.
In the end I have to echo weirdo. Guy needs to be more of a team player.
Also you might think about throwing some things his nitch won't do well on. Undead, Swarms, Incorporeal, and generally high fort saves.
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Ask him if he would be happy voluntarily only using one thundercall per round as a move action (or swift at level 13) which leaves him able to use his standard action for something else like spellcasting or a standard attack. Encourage him to use his buff abilities to help the other party members be more effective - he could start by activating Inspire Courage and casting a group buff like Haste or Good Hope, then in round 2 cast Versatile Performance and start to use one thundercall and one spell/attack in a round.
One Thunder Call and one starting of Inspire Courage would certainly be more group-friendly.
Thunder Call (Su): At 3rd level, the thundercaller can use her performance to unleash a deafening peal of thunder. This allows a thundercaller who has started or is maintaining a performance to use a standard action to create an effect similar to the spell sound burst (having the same range and area and allowing the same saving throw). Each use of this ability costs one round of performance. At 7th level, the sonic damage that is dealt by this blast of sound increases to 3d8. This damage further increases to 5d8 at 11th level, 7d8 at 15th level, and 9d8 at 19th level."
I'd have expected to it to have similar language to the Sound Striker archetype, which reinforces that their damaging performances can never be activated faster than as a standard action.
Looking back, I think the others are right--it does say, "you can," which implies choice, so he can still do this trick at 13th. Tricky.
First, I can't believe someone would complain that their foes are being stunned.
Second, I don't think it's overpowered because Inspire Courage is just as powerful, if not more so, and doesn't eat you actions every round. At level 7, you're looking at a +2 to hit and damage for the entire party on every swing they make. That's a big deal.
I have to agree that I think it should have been like sound striker. There are a number of reasons for this.
With the about to drop it twice and later 3 times a round it clearly overshadows by far the all the other abilities the archetype gets latter on. This really could not have been intended.
It already scales better then most damaging class abilities. On top of that it does not use spell slots so they have a pretty big clip on it. It is not hard to get a very high number of performance rounds.
The ability to drop an AoE nuke/stun and still then start IC is already pretty strong.
While as it is is not the most powerful thing I have ever seen by far it does seem a bit out of wack all things considered.
-edit- In fact I am FAQing it. Things seem just a bit to funny here.
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Ask him if he would be happy voluntarily only using one thundercall per round as a move action (or swift at level 13) which leaves him able to use his standard action for something else like spellcasting or a standard attack. Encourage him to use his buff abilities to help the other party members be more effective - he could start by activating Inspire Courage and casting a group buff like Haste or Good Hope, then in round 2 cast Versatile Performance and start to use one thundercall and one spell/attack in a round.One Thunder Call and one starting of Inspire Courage would certainly be more group-friendly.
Yeah, this was probably the most important paragraph of my over-long post. A little bit of team play will go a long way in dealing with overpowered characters, especially ones like bards that tend to have a lot of buffing and debuffing abilities to help the whole party be more awesome relative to their opponents.
And do point out to your other players that stunned = vulnerable to their attacks (-2 AC and no dex bonus). If you have a rogue in the party, that's sneak attack time.
Stunning enemies certainly is useful to the team, but I can see why the other PCs are a bit upset; they probably feel like they don't have a time to shine because the bard just
relegates them to clean up duty after he already won the fight.
So, Thunderstriker is not as worthless as I thought (even though the later abilities are still laughably bad, especially in comparison to the ability we are discussing).
I don't think I would call the later abilities laughably bad. As I read it they work as call lightning but do not eat standard actions to call bolts just need maintained. That makes then much better then the spells the mimic. Seems alright to me when AOE is a problem.
As others have said, as worded in the text, this is legal, and could actually result in three uses once the character hits 13.
What type of story are you running? Are the foes that your party faces connected in any way (i.e., they share the same boss, etc.)? If so, then you could start throwing foes at them who have resistance to sonic damage and high fortitude saves; another alternative would be to throw in enemy bards of your own that know the Silence spell.
I don't think I would call the later abilities laughably bad. As I read it they work as call lightning but do not eat standard actions to call bolts just need maintained. That makes then much better then the spells the mimic. Seems alright to me when AOE is a problem.
I read it as acting just like those spells, including the type of actions. I see what you mean in which case it could be better.
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I always took the line from Bardic Performance "Each round, the bard can produce any one of the types of bardic performance that he has mastered, as indicated by his level." to mean you can only produce one performance per round, period. It then goes on to say that you can't start a different performance without dropping the first one (which Virtuoso Performance nullifies as described by the spell).
So that would be my argument for not allowing multiple performances in the same round. You only get to choose one per round, regardless of how many actions you can take.
What type of story are you running? Are the foes that your party faces connected in any way (i.e., they share the same boss, etc.)? If so, then you could start throwing foes at them who have resistance to sonic damage and high fortitude saves; another alternative would be to throw in enemy bards of your own that know the Silence spell.
A very casual sandbox style game with a few overarching potential storylines, but very non-linear. In this case, there are multiple "villains", but none are the direct kind and the players have not opened true hostilities with them or their minions (most of the fights are random in a dungeon). I have also tried undead, oozes, constructs, swarms, plants. They work ok, but I can't keep using them - they are kind of repetitive, and the 6d8/round at a distance in an AOE is more than enough to take care of lesser ones before they ever close to the bard.
I always took the line from Bardic Performance "Each round, the bard can produce any one of the types of bardic performance that he has mastered, as indicated by his level." to mean you can only produce one performance per round, period. It then goes on to say that you can't start a different performance without dropping the first one (which Virtuoso Performance nullifies as described by the spell).
So that would be my argument for not allowing multiple performances in the same round. You only get to choose one per round, regardless of how many actions you can take.
This is actually the exact line that made me wonder if I was doing this right. While the archetype says he can start a performance as a swift/move action, CAN he do more than one a round by the rules? Or is it just saving him action economy?
A 13th level Wizard could do all sorts of crazy things in a round too, so I'm not going to claim it's over-powered. It is interesting though!
True, but the wizard gets less spells per day than the bard gets performances. Thundercall also doesn't provoke, requiring no concentration check etc to use machine-gun style. The wizard is powerful, but more limited in his own way, IMO. For some reason, a bard doing 15d8 per round with three stun checks in an AOE is just...weird to me.
With the ability to drop it twice and later 3 times a round it clearly overshadows by far the all the other abilities the archetype gets latter on. This really could not have been intended.
I think this basically sums up the general feeling in the group. I have nothing against the guy, and playing a powerful character is fun (I assume, I've only ever been a DM) but the other characters aren't optimized and tend to be unable to have the same impact as the bard. The issue I have (personally) is that it seems out of flavor in terms of mechanics. Yes, a bard attacking with his shouts is awesome, but the sheer mechanical effectiveness of this strategy almost seems too much along with the versatility of bards in general. If it was a sorcerer and the damage was from one of his 6 level 3 spells/day or whatever, fine. Right now though, the bard can do this 25 times a day as a performance.
A bard does not lose the ability to start his performance as a move action ,he just gains the ability to do it as a swift action.You can still use a move to start a performance at 13th level and beyond.In that case, at 13th level, a Thundercaller could start three performances per round, one swift, one move, and one standard. Each would deal 5d8 sonic damage, no save, no spell resistance, plus make 3 fortitude saves or be stunned for a round.
Um, why do you say no save? It saysd Sound burst and "(having the same range and area and allowing the same saving throw). "
Thus there is a save. Doesn't mention SR so I guess SR No.
I think he meant no save for the damage, because he does mentioned the Fort saves for stun. The damage isn't really the issue here though.
^ What he said.
Thanks chaoseffect:)
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Dealing with this build without nerfing the PC:
-As others have mentioned, some creature types are immune to the effects of this spell
-Sending multiple opponents at the party is another option
-Large or huge creatures tend to have excellent fort saves and are likely to succeed multiple saves against this ability
-Send foes with ranged attacks that are difficult to reach with this spell's close range (assuming you have an archer-type who'd like to be in the spotlight)
-Send foes that disable the party as well, and make the bard 1 of the targets often (but certainly don't over-do this)
Personally, I think this is a very neat trick, but I'm surprised the party is overshadowed by him. After all, he's doing 12-24 damage/round in a small aoe at L9, and can do so 12 times/day (assuming 2 uses/round).
-Any martial (full BAB) melee character should be doing roughly the same or double that damage per round, unlimited times per day. Archers should probably deal even more damage.
-A 9th level arcane caster should be dealing about 9d6 per round in a larger aoe, or else spells that are equally effective at defeating an opponent.
-A rogue will feel outclassed in combat by most other classes, but at least this stun will help them be relevant in combat
I don't know if any of this helps, but good luck!
what about making the bard move?
Seems like he's allowed to stand in the middle of a blank grid square pattern and huff and puff until the house blows down, then trudge to the next encounter in another blank grid square room?
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Actually, I have a follow-up question to the OP's topic if he doesn't mind.
How do folks think the Thundercaller's ability works along with Lingering Performance? Would a stunned foe remain stunned for 2 rounds? Of course using bardic music again would stop the effect.
Lingering Performance:
The effects of your bardic performance carry on, even after you have stopped performing.
Prerequisite: Bardic performance class feature.
Benefit: The bonuses and penalties from your bardic performance continue for 2 rounds after you cease performing. Any other requirement, such as range or specific conditions, must still be met for the effect to continue. If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease.
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I really do urge people to FAQ this. Normally I find calls for FAQ most of the time very unneeded but in this case there really is a mess.
For Lingering Performance I think you would get Thunder Call once per round for the next two rounds without spending any rounds performing. I don't see how it would extend the stun at all.
I always took the line from Bardic Performance "Each round, the bard can produce any one of the types of bardic performance that he has mastered, as indicated by his level." to mean you can only produce one performance per round, period. It then goes on to say that you can't start a different performance without dropping the first one (which Virtuoso Performance nullifies as described by the spell).
So that would be my argument for not allowing multiple performances in the same round. You only get to choose one per round, regardless of how many actions you can take.
What he said. Besides, it seems so strange dramatically to have more than one "performance" within 6 seconds.
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Lingering performance would have absolutely no effect on Thundercall whatsoever. Thundercall creates no bonuses or penalties, it deals damage and stuns. Stun is a condition, not a penalty, as penalties are specifically defined in Pathfinder.
It definitely won't extend the stun, and it absolutely will not give you additional Performance Round-free Thundercalls.
What he said. Besides, it seems so strange dramatically to have more than one "performance" within 6 seconds.I always took the line from Bardic Performance "Each round, the bard can produce any one of the types of bardic performance that he has mastered, as indicated by his level." to mean you can only produce one performance per round, period. It then goes on to say that you can't start a different performance without dropping the first one (which Virtuoso Performance nullifies as described by the spell).
So that would be my argument for not allowing multiple performances in the same round. You only get to choose one per round, regardless of how many actions you can take.
I had this pointed out to me as well. There's ambiguity in the wording still, however:
"Each round, the bard can produce any one of the types of bardic performance..."
This does not say he can only do one performance in a round; it says he can only use one type of performance. Nit-picky, but to me that would indicate that a Bard could not, say, use Thunder Call as his swift action, then change and use Call Lightning as his move, because based on the wording he's clearly limited to one type of performance per round.
Ultimately there's enough ambiguity in all the various text that I think it would have to be house-ruled, pending an official Paizo statement.
Been following this thread off and on. It occurred to me, if they can do it twice with two move actions...once it became a swift could they do it three times in a round (move, move, swift)? Feel free to shoot this down, I might have missed something in my readings.
You'd really burn through your performance rounds quickly, but darn...
I marked it as an FAQ just in case. It should probably be worded "Each round, the bard can produce any one bardic performance..." to be more clear.
Been following this thread off and on. It occurred to me, if they can do it twice with two move actions...once it became a swift could they do it three times in a round (move, move, swift)? Feel free to shoot this down, I might have missed something in my readings.
You'd really burn through your performance rounds quickly, but darn...
That was the originating question in the thread - although it would be one use as a swift, one use as a standard, and one use as a move.
A DM friend pointed out something that makes that illegal, however: In the text for Bardic Performance you'll find this:
Changing a bardic performance from one effect to another requires the bard to stop the previous performance and start a new one as a standard action.
And that is never altered by changes to the Bardic Performance ability.
This means that at most you could have two uses per round: Start a use with a swift action, end that use as part of your standard action, and then use a move action to start a second.
But now that I re-read it again, I question the viability of even that, because
A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time.
The intent of this line would (to me) indicate an intent to limit your bardic performance to once per round.
That does shed some more light on the matter, though I'd still have some trouble as a DM making a call currently. Marked as a faq for that reason.
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That does shed some more light on the matter, though I'd still have some trouble as a DM making a call currently. Marked as a faq for that reason.
I enjoyed the discussion because it reinforces something for my own future game design endeavors: Choose your terminology, define it clearly, and then stick to it religiously.
Sample of how I would word it: "Using the appropriate type of action (based on his level), the bard may activate a single Bardic performance effect in a turn..." (where 'turn' is defined as "the standard, swift, movement, and free actions taken by a single character in a roughly 6-second period"; 'round' would instead be used to refer to "one full cycle of turns of all combatants\actors").
Also if stunning is an effect of this ability then as soon as a creature gets stunned, you couldn't use any other performance.
That does shed some more light on the matter, though I'd still have some trouble as a DM making a call currently. Marked as a faq for that reason.I enjoyed the discussion because it reinforces something for my own future game design endeavors: Choose your terminology, define it clearly, and then stick to it religiously.
If you want a great example of that, look at Magic: The Gathering. Because their game is competitive rather than cooperative, they haven't had "Ask your GM." as a crutch, and have instead developed outstanding systems for templating (aka wording) and rulings.
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A DM friend pointed out something that makes that illegal, however: In the text for Bardic Performance you'll find this:
Changing a bardic performance from one effect to another requires the bard to stop the previous performance and start a new one as a standard action.And that is never altered by changes to the Bardic Performance ability.
This means that at most you could have two uses per round: Start a use with a swift action, end that use as part of your standard action, and then use a move action to start a second.
That doesn't make sense. It doesn't take a standard action to stop a bardic performance. Stopping a bardic performance can be done simply by not using a free action to maintain it, and then you can start a new performance. The "standard action" in there clearly refers to the time spent to start a new performance. If it took you a standard action to stop a performance and a second move or swift action to start one, they wouldn't say you could "stop the previous performance and start a new one as a standard action."
Of course, there's generally little benefit to starting two performances in a round as they are generally continuous effects - the only benefit I can see is to start Inspire Courage, take a standard action with those bonuses, and switch to something else like Dirge of Doom. But even then it's probably better to just maintain Dirge of Doom and keep your move action.
This only becomes a problem with the archetype abilities like thundercall that produce instantaneous effects.
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I was just about thinking same thing what Wierdo said.
The text: "Changing a bardic performance from one effect to another requires the bard to stop the previous performance and start a new one as a standard action." states that second performance can be start as a standard action if first one is droped.
So at higher levels, one could use performance two times even, almost three times with Virtuoso Performance, but the amount of consumption of bardic performance rounds would just skyrocket. 4 Bardic Performance rounds to be exact. 8th level PC with 20 Cha would have slightly more then 20 rounds of performance.
Real problem. I had blaster once, he kept one shooting bosses but at lower levels and it didn't feel right to me. I hope you can solve it. Numerous people already gave great advices.
that 20 rounds of performance at lvl 8 is being very conservative. With a trait and half elf alternate favored class bonus you are looking at 27. With a feat invested... the point is performance rounds are very easy to rack up.
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Thunder Call is actually a Bardic Performance, so yeah, he can use Thundercall with move actions.
In this case, I would like to point out that sliding forward upon a stage on one's knees while leaning backwards and wailing on a guitar is a move action compatible with Thunder Call.
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Seems obvious to me. He can only use the thunder call ability once per round regardless of what level he is.
Starting a bardic performance is not what makes the Thundercall effect happen. Maintaining it for 1 round is what makes it happen. So even if the bard has lets says 2 standard actions in his round, he still cannot use this ability twice. He can only produce one performance per round no matter how many actions he has.
Yes at level 7 he can start his bardic performance as a move action and at 13th he can do it as a swift but even if he stops and he starts it again it doesn't let him duplicate the effect a second time that round. He can however at level 13 use thundercall or call lightning and then follow that up by moving and casting a spell.
As a note when a bard is 7th level he can stop a performance and a start a new one as a move action and at 13 he can stop and start a new one as a swift. He also cannot hit them with thundercall then switch to call lightning and hit them with lightning in the same round he can go from using one to the other as a swift action but he can only produce one of the effects during that round.
He could however use Virtuoso performance to use both thundercall and call lightning at the same time at the cost of 3 rounds of performance per/round. He could however also add Exquisite Accompaniment to that and use both effects at a cost of 1 per round thereafter until Virtuoso performance expires or you run out of uses.
I hope that clears it up for you.
Starting a bardic performance is not what makes the Thundercall effect happen. Maintaining it for 1 round is what makes it happen.
Er, no, that is not true at all. Thundercall, in fact, cannot be maintained. It is an instantaneous kind of thing. You spend the performance round and instantly get the effect, and then its over. So, yes, you can use it multiple times per round, by RAW at least.
Hrm, this is interesting. I have a thundercaller bard in PFS right now who is using the Aasimar alternate favored class bonus to make him count as higher level for it (he's level 8 now, so he counts as a level 12 bard, so he has 5d8 damage with a DC 24 fort save (26 Cha)).
The way I've been playing it is that he has to use a standard action to do it as that is how the sound striker ability works. Playing it like this, I have been doing things like Thunder Call + Inspire Courage every round and have found Thunder Call to be a very powerful ability using it this way. If the enemy can't be stunned, they are still taking unavoidable, nigh unresistible damage every round, plus I can inspire my allies every turn (I took maestro of the society and extra music to help). As well, he has been absolutely terrific for swarms.
Is the RAW really that you can do it as a standard bardic performance, and hence at level 7 use a move action? That's what it looks like to me...but it seems rather unbalancing, especially if combined with the Aasimar alternate favored class bonus.
Even if that is the case, I probably wouldn't force it upon GMs because making everything take 10d8 sonic damage and 2 DC 24 fort saves every round just sounds like a jerk move. (Again, this is a PFS character so technically I could just use the RAW...)
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So I've gone over this whole thread trying to figure out why this is so confusing. The designers couldn't possibly have intended for people to deal that much damage each turn. It's not like this is even some combo with an obscure feat that they didn't think about. This is the archetype as-is.
As it stands, I can't see any justification for why Thunder Call & Inspire Courage can be used in the same round. Thunder Call is a Bardic Performance. Inspire Courage is a Bardic Performance. The rules are super clear on this.
Each round, the bard can produce any one of the types of bardic performance that he has mastered, as indicated by his level.
A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time.
That's the RAW. If you want some kind of precedence to assess RAI for yourself just look at the Bardic Performances that have immediate effects.
Suggestion (Sp): A bard of 6th level or higher can use his performance to make a suggestion (as per the spell) to a creature he has already fascinated (see above). Using this ability does not disrupt the fascinate effect, but it does require a standard action to activate (in addition to the free action to continue the fascinate effect). A bard can use this ability more than once against an individual creature during an individual performance.
That's a long quote, but you'll notice that TWICE it makes an exemption for the fact that it doesn't stop the fascinate performance. Thunder Call does not mention the same exemption.
Clearly the intent was to give you the option to deal damage with your performances not deal damage AND keep buffing your allies.
One more example:
Inspire Greatness (Su): A bard of 9th level or higher can use his performance to inspire greatness in himself or a single willing ally within 30 feet, granting extra fighting capability. For every three levels the bard attains beyond 9th, he can target an additional ally while using this performance (up to a maximum of four targets at 18th level).
By the way everybody else is interpreting multiple performances of Thunder Call, I should be able to use Inspire Greatness on multiple allies by simply starting the performance multiple times. If that was the case, why does it start granting additional targets as you level? Wouldn't the additional rounds of Performance you get as you level scale it well enough? And even then, why would it put a cap on the number of targets at lvl18, when you're doing it to three people by lvl13 following the rules people are using for multiple Thunder Calls?
The truth is that Thundercaller is a side-grade from vanilla Bard that makes you give up suggestion so that you can contribute some damage when the party doesn't need you to be Inspiring Courage. You know, because you can't do two performances in one round.
What is said remains correct as noted above it states that you cannot use it more than once.
Everything I stated was taken straight from the rules by RAW you cant use multiple Thundercalls in a round.
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Hrm, this is interesting. I have a thundercaller bard in PFS right now who is using the Aasimar alternate favored class bonus to make him count as higher level for it (he's level 8 now, so he counts as a level 12 bard, so he has 5d8 damage with a DC 24 fort save (26 Cha)).
The text says the saves for thunder call are the same as the spell Sound Burst. Sound Burst is a second level spell so the DC should be 20, not 24.
Wow this is really neat. A bard that can actually contribute to damage. Looking at it as written it seems to be an instantaneous effect that you can't do while maintaining another performance.
So yeah toss 3 of em out at level 12.
If you are not affected by primary damage, the stunning effect does not kick. Electricity is a lamentable type of damage. Everpresent demons are inmune to it.
So undeads, constructs, demons, anything with enough resistance To electricity, elementals (no stun effect ), dragons (same)...
A lot of things are inmune or resistant
Thunder Call is sonic, not electric.