Charisma Bard?

[Ender730]

From the treatmonk guide, it seems like bard doesn't really need to focus on Charisma. Chan a cha-focused bard still be combat viable? Was hoping to be a party face with really high charisma.

[Snowtiger]

its a support roll pretty much cc and be a cheerleader

[Trogdar]

Depends on party composition. If you had a few casters in your group, then a magician bard might be a good way to go. They don't boost melee classes, but have performances that improve caster level and they get to cherry pick a few spells from any arcane spell list. They can also us meta magic later without increasing cast times. They make reasonably good charisma primary classes, just put a 14 in you con and dexterity so you can live.

[johnlocke90]

The thing is, raising your charisma doesn't do much for a bard. Bards have bad offensive spells. As a result, its better to raise dex and focus on shooting a bow than it is to raise charisma and try using your spells.

That isn't to say a bard is unviable with just charisma. Inspire Courage by itself is very powerful in the right party. You could have a bard who does nothing but buff spells who is very combat viable. However, he would do the same thing, except better, if he had focused on something other than charisma.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

I always have fun with my High-Cha bards, they get some fun spells like Grease, and Hideous Laughter that do need a high save DC in order to be effective.

There's no wrong way to play. My usual spread depends on what kind of bard I'm playing but simply:

Cha > Str > Con > Dex > Int > Wis.

There's flexibility in there (swapping Str and Dex if you're going to focus on ranged fighting rather than damage/combat maneuvers, or Int & Wis if you're going archaeologist and need to spot those traps).

[Atarlost]

Magician bard doesn't boost caster level, it boosts caster level checks. That's dispel magic and breaking through spell resistance.

On the other hand they lose + to weapon damage rolls and that has been clarified to include weapon-like spells. And, of course, caster heavy parties tend to like summon monster. Inspire courage and summons go together like chocolate and peanut butter.

And they lose a wizard's best friend. Dirge of doom is -2 to saving throws with no avoidance except blindness, deafness, immunity to fear, or immunity to mind effecting effects and it stacks with most other saving throw debuffs.

You could muck about with dazzling display, but it's a full round action. You could use a spell on blistering invective and even use a rod to quicken it, but if you had dirge of doom you could cast and/or quicken something else and dirge as a move action.

Throwing down DoD will make up for your lower spell level with regards to saving throws for most of the rest of the game.

[Chris P. Bacon]

Bards have some good buffs and debuffs/save-or-suck spells, and there are other things you can do besides casting and attacking.

One of my favourite bard characters was a halfling court bard who basically just debuffed the hell out of opponents through a combination of spells, his Satire performance, intimidation (via comedic versatile performance and dazzling display), and the antagonize feat (post-nerf). He could rapidly pile up severe penalties to on attack rolls and saves, leaving enemies almost harmless and very vulnerable to save-or-suck spells when combined with a high charisma bonus. I sometimes had him in flanking positions to help out even more (and take the occasional hit for the team) but I can't recall if I ever made even one attack roll - which is just as well, as I think his Str was 5. O_o

And of course out of combat I was the party face.

[Trogdar]

If I took bestow curse on my magician at level 7 wouldn't the caster level check be a good thing?

[Ender730]

Oh, I wasn't even thinking of the spells. I was thinking more about the Cha-based skills. I'm debating whether it's worth the hit in offensive capabilities by focusing on social skills. Our encounters are generally 50/50 between combat and non-combat encounters, so I thought it could be worthwhile. But then again, it sounds like I'd be so lame at the combat part that it's just not worth it :/

[DeathQuaker]

You eventually need a Cha of 16 to cast up to 6th level spells. Offensive, defensive, buff, utility, save DC or no, doesn't matter if you can't cast it at all.

Some bard performance save DCs in part depend on Charisma (e.g., fascinate), and Charisma modifier factors into how many rounds of performance you get.

So it can't be a dump stat for bards. If you choose to focus on other ability scores you can do fine, but if you don't get some bonus in there you will lose possibly class features (high level spells) and/or ability effectiveness (performance); however negligible it is I guess depends on your style of play.

[Nidoran Duran]

Even if you do take a slight blow to your combat stats, you're gaining from that increased effectiveness in other aspects of combat. Spell saves is only a part of it; you also get things like bonus spells/day and the ability to bluff or intimidate in combat, things that can be useful. If you have lots of non-combat encounters, then you definitely want to have a good bonus, since you're pretty much expected to be the face man of the group and people might avoid putting very many points into interaction skills on the assumption you will.

You're still viable in combat, even with a charisma focus. Feats can still allow you combat prowess. You won't hit like a fighter, granted, but if you want to do so, then play a fighter. I find the best way to go for what you want is to play the class meant for that thing.

Ultimately, bear in mind that unless you're playing through some kind of tournament module or competition, this is supposed to be about fun. If you want to play a certain way, then that should be more important than if you're hitting really high damage, or just respectable damage. Bards are really fun if you want to roleplay with them, and unless you're in a group where min/maxing is expected and they'll look down on you for not running the most optimal build, fun ought to trump stats.

Besides, being able to keep fights from happening or get into a place you shouldn't be without killing someone is pretty combat effective, in its own special way.