Who is going to buy those useless bullets though?
I don't think they're useless, I think they function as normal bullets. (Unless that was a joke about making bullets at a table that doesn't allow guns >_>)
So if you're in a guns-heavy area of the setting, you could sell to gunslingers/other gun users or to a merchant who caters to those armaments.
Well since this is in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting forum, I assume that means outside of the Mana Wastes (where the spell isn't going to work) nobody uses guns. So nobody will want those bullets, because nobody is going to have a gun to shoot them with.
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So you take a pound of lead and turn it into 30 lead balls. How exactly are you going to pawn them off on someone? Without gunpowder they're reasonably useless after all.
Suppose if your in one of those infinite money magic item exchange worlds it would work. Most GM's will just look at you like your crazy.
since new too pathfinder will ignore worlds and just deal with the world i am in...orthos, availibility would definitely be a issue ie ammo easy,or ammo scarce.. lazarx/morgen so your saying every fletcher should quit there jobs, lets look at that...
The town fletcher only makes so many arrows per day for a reason.
Lets say you are a fletcher in a small village. You have 3 or 4 hunters who hunt for game in the village. They each used an average of 5 arrows per day. They try to recover them, but they end up having to buy 3 arrows per day each, 12 arrows per day total. They only hunt 5 days a week on average. That's 60 arrows a week of demand. A fletcher with a +5 craft skill can take 10 and make 12x15 = 180 sp of arrows per week. That is 18 x 20 = 360 arrows per week, which is 6 times the demand. The cost to craft those arrows is 1/3 the cost of the arrows.
So fletcher spends 6 gp and makes 360 arrows.
Fletcher sells 60 arrows and makes 3 gp.
Repeat every week until you are bankrupt and your family starves.
OR
Fletcher spends 1 gp and makes 60 arrows.
Fletcher sells 60 arrows and makes 3 gp.
Fletcher uses the 2 gp of profit to feed his family.
You can make all the arrows you want, but if there isn't anyone to buy them, then you are wasting money.
To sell those bullets, you not only have to find people who use guns, but you have to find people who fire their guns off regularly enough to need more bullets.
At the same time, if I spend 5 uses of the spell, spending 10gps of raw materials, I can create 1 sp worth (10 sling bullets)? WTH?
That is because there is a very cheap, easily available substitute for sling bullets called rocks.
As a GM I pretty much have an aversion to gimmicky get rich quick schemes devised by players who want to turn their adventurer into a manufacturer. That includes schemes to mass produce and sell any manufactured item. In game terms it just means that as the supply increases, the demand decreases and the price therefore decreases too. Just like in the real world.
charender; lol the sling and rocks...I was just trying too show how this could be used as a potential early money maker, for any starting wizard...or supplying ones party with ammo, I was shocked when I started doing the math for it is all...
supply and demand would always be in consideration, game is heavy with pistol packing mooks...then yes it sells, find but 1 pistol in nearly 20 sessions not so much...as said above was just shocked after reviewing this spell 2gp yielding 30gp before sales......
Or if you have a world where firearm use is not rare, and the world is in the middle of a major war. Can you say "war profiteering"?
#1 not in a small village, in a port city, #2 was using the fletcher as a comparison number #3 how small is this village 3-4 hunters go out each day thats what 1-3 deer,if even found at 100-120lbs each, if they hit them, miss 50% chance too retrieve..hit = 100% need, lets look Ironicdisaster wrote
"Your average deer has around 11 hp. The most common hunting weapon would be a short bow. Average damage on a short bow for your standard Level 1 human commoner would be 3.5, which means you'd have to not only surprise the deer, but so would your two buddies.
Historically, people hunted in groups, so if they were using short bows, they would need at least three people for each deer if they wanted a reasonable shot at taking it down in one hit. After that hit, the surprised deer becomes a surprised far away deer." great now we have too go find it so thats 3 ruined arrows for 100-125lbs of meat...how big is the village?
Given that one adult deer is enough meet for a family for a month, my assumption was that only about 1 deer got bagged every other day. More common would be rabbits and other smaller game. Otherwise, your hunters will be bringing in more meat than the village could use.
"You can make all the arrows you want, but if there isn't anyone to buy them, then you are wasting money".Quote absolutley true no one buys then yes...however, people practice there skills see above...hit 100% breakage,miss 50% retrieval....hmmm I have 4 hunters all wanting more too resupply..vs just 2...oh crap I made my minimum..
If the fletcher is smart, he has invested some of his earning in keeping an small inventory of extras. The 60 arrows per week is just the normal average usage. Even if the average usage is 120 per week, the fletcher is still capable of making way more arrows than he can normally sell.
as above fletcher spends 1gp makes 60 arrows..sells for 3 gp fletcher uses 2gp too feed his family 2gp feeds his family for lets look 1poor/3common/5good sp/day/person...a family of 4 uses up that good food in 1 day hey where are we sleeping..fletcher is not supporting his family hes getting by.. ...smart fletcher should also be a hunter...so he feeds family and gains coin untill he doesn't have too hunt anymore...
Yeah, 2 gp per week is subsistance living if he is the only one in the house making money. But then, he is only using up about a day an a half of the week making arrows, so plenty of time for doing other things. My point was that is he makes the maximum number of arrows a week that he could make, he loses money.
Well since this is in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting forum, I assume that means outside of the Mana Wastes (where the spell isn't going to work) nobody uses guns. So nobody will want those bullets, because nobody is going to have a gun to shoot them with.
So you live in Nex or Geb and run carts full of cheap ammo over to Alkenstar.
So say you spend a month and make about 1000gp. Or you could go and kill a bunch of goblins, get a level and make twice the money... Sounds fun.
Also, once all the other level 2 wizards catch on, competition will drive down the price.
Pathfinder is not an economy simulator. If you want to play Merchants and Caravans, your DM will need to make up some actual macroeconomics rules. Generally, when you see an exploit like that, its best to pretend it does not exist because that is not the game you want to play. Unless it is. In which case, more power to you.
The trade-off is actually not that good.. While changing 2 gp into 15 gp seems nice, you forget to consider the cost is actually: 2 gp + 1 lvl 1 spell.
The going rate for casting spells is 10 * spell level * caster level.
So only a 1st lvl wizard would earn more buy selling the bullets rather than selling his spellcasting services instead (off course the specifics depend on the market).
I still find it funny that the amount of lead in a Sling bullet is less than that in a Firearms bullet yet you can create more Firearm Ammo than Sling Ammo...
I think it all comes down to just how much a lead costs in your world... And if you look at the spell, the material cost is "1lb of lead OR other soft metals worth 2gp." So you could actually just use 2 gold pieces, and then use your lead.
Based on the production cost of standard issue Firearms bullets, you're using 15gp worth of lead to produce 1/2 lb of ammunition. So unless sling bullets and Firearms ARE using a different metal, or the difference in cost is actually more due to the work than the materials, there is definitely a bit of a disparity between the the ammunition. Additionally, you get the full pound for the sling stones, but it eats half of the lead to create the 30 bullets.
So I guess the question is, just how much do you really charge for actual lead? I would then think of changing the cost of the ammunition to account for it all. Or perhaps say that standard sling stones are properly shaped but still rock, and that actual metal slugs would dish out more damage from a sling.
Food for thought.
Who is going to buy those useless bullets though?
The same guy who buys all your loot. Seems you flood the market with short swords taken by bandits. Why not this. By raw you can sell for 1/2 price. If you want to apply the laws of supply and demand to you game then the price will drop for both buying and selling as supply increase especially if there is little demand. If you do this for bullets you should remain consistent and rare items will go up in price significantly. The price is the book is just the average price then adjust for supply and demand.
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Let me weigh my options here:
1 a month of using all my first level spells each day to peddle bullets to make 900 gp.
2 go out on an adventure which takes all of 2 weeks maximum, level up and make more gold.
3. Craft scrolls which are actually useful to me and still sellable, make 4 and sell them in a day making 50gp a day for a month meaning about 1,500gp.
If I'm just wanting money I think I'll stick with option 3. If I actually want to do something I'll go with option 2.
Enterprising young player uses spell to make tons of bullets to sell. 2gp in = 30gp out he thinks.
Sells first few batches for 30gp each. Probably sells a few more at that price. Then all of a sudden, merchants are refusing to buy them for much more than 10 gp each, then they just refuse to buy them. The market is flooded with bullets. No one needs 1000's of bullets when there is only 1-2 gun users in town and they can make their own. Enterprising player is now stuck with bullets he can't sell, gets lead poisoning from breathing in melted lead fumes, and dies.
Economies do not function in a vacuum and tabletop games don't function without a GM.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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If you want to get all RAW about it, 1/2 price is only for selling loot or old equipment you don't use anymore.
If you're actually crafting stuff with the intention of selling it for profit, you make a Craft check and earn half your total in gp for a week's worth of work.
Of course, I'd be a nice GM and give you a +5 on your check for using the spell (treating it like an item-specifc crafter's fortune) :D
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So if you have a player that really wants to try this, you can turn it into a nice encounter hook when the local gang gets wind of the scheme and comes to steal the player's extra cash.
A Gunslinger could do this for cheaper and not be limited by Spells.
Lead bullets are obscenely overpriced in this game. Crafting a lead ball is like a DC 1 realistically speaking. Lead melts at a relatively low temp, and all you due is pour it in a mold then despur the ball when it cools, which is just a couple minutes.
They can be bought for lowest cost (10% listed, as if common) in my game. Cartridges, however, wont' be so cheap, but not relevant, I guess.
@Belazoar: This might be true in a Modern Setup but most older setups could cause miscasts and bullets with pitting and such. In fact most Pitted Bullets available were miscasts that could still be used with little difficulties.
Mainly this would depend on whether firearms are easily obtained (Common Place Guns or Emerging Guns in a place like Alkenstar).
I just consider bullets common priced. The rest I've left at listed price.
The craft skill specifically says how much money you can earn in a week of dedicated work. Same as profession. 1/2 a skill check roll/week in g.p.
Seems like a good answer to all these get rich quick schemes.
Well look what happened when early Metal Cartridge Rifles came about. One company got rich quick simply because they could mass produce bullets fast enough to meet demand while most others couldn't.
This can be handled the same way.
Also remember that during something like the Emerging Guns period most bullets would be pure lead which is a pretty expensive resource over time, while during the Commonplace and higher periods they would typically be a leaded pewter or some lead alloy instead.
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Every time I have a player find something like this and he wants to exploit it I have the same canned response.
GM – "You want your character to craft these bullets instead, to make his money?"
PC– "Yeah, guaranteed GOLD!"
GM– "Yeah, no problem. Let me see your character?" *Takes Character* "Cool, he is now an NPC shopkeeper. Please write up a new character that is going to be an ADVENTURER."
PC- *blinks dazedly*
GM– "Not kidding. New character."
@Krome: You would hate Ultimate Campaign's Downtime System then...
So if playing in Golarion...
Gunslingers outside of the Alkenstar area are going to be rare, so good luck selling those bullets.
If you are playing in a setting where guns are common...congratulations...supply and demand says those bullets are probably dirt cheap and not worth the cost of the effort.
Beyond that, you still have the issue of a first level wizard actually knowing that spell. Wizards start off with only 3 first level spells, plus whatever his intelligence gets him. How smart a choice is it for a PC wizard to waste one of those precious spells on a get rich quick scheme only good for a couple of levels?
I could see a Spellslinger, or whatever the gun-based wizard archetype is, with it...
Assuming that you're running a purely RAW D&D economy (you poor person), it's a good get rich scheme but not great. You can already sell off your first level spells as a first level wizard, by RAW, for 10gp. Yielding 13gp (after the cost of the raw materials) is only a 130% increase.
After you hit 2nd level, the profitability drops down to 13gp versus 20gp per spell, so this scheme has a very limited shelf life.
If economics is important to your game though and people want to play merchants or craftspeople then I would suggest not using the RAW D&D economy. In running a campaign like this it's worth picking up a copy of the Grain into Gold sourcebook by Board Enterprises and using the economic system from there.
@mkenner: You sir have my attention. Where might I procure a PDF Version of the book? (If that is possible.)
@mkenner: You sir have my attention. Where might I procure a PDF Version of the book? (If that is possible.)
It's available from e23 through Steve Jackson games.
There's a free preview available.
Or you can purchase the full product for $7.50 here.
For the record, I don't have any involvement in the product. I just think it's worth reading.
All items are sold for 1/2 their price. But cost 1/3 their price to craft.
And I am definitely going to look into that book. Is it inspired by IRL Economics or what?
you can sell your first level spells if there is someone willing to buy them THAT DAY.
The thing about making items is you build up an inventory every day, and you have them available whenever someone wants to buy them. So every day becomes a money earning day, as opposed to those where you spend slots on everyone.
==Aelryinth
A Wizard could keep his Slots open and fill them as needed.
And I could see Mending & Prestidigitation being used fairly frequently in large cities or with Nobles.