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Jiggy, here is what I have found with the folks I game with.If I gamed with people who were like that, I'd adopt your style as well. ;)
To a person they tell me they act that way because they've been burned by gleeful "GOTCHA!" GMs who have nailed them the one time they forgot to say "checking for traps."
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For example, the idea that a tenth level sneaky skillmonkey adventurer who is literally crawling through a slimy, stinking, dark and creepy dungeon filled with unnatural horrors ranging from ravenous undead to extraplanar aberrations would "forget" to sneak past a door is very, very hard to accept.
How about a totally crazy solution to this problem, like maybe the GM asks the player how their character is moving past the dungeon door!
You can easily take this to the opposite extreem where an allied NPC is searching for the rogue to warn him of a trap he's walking into, but the rogue, who is always in stealth-mode, cannot be found ...If you're not sure just ask the player if he is being stealthy, or using a cantrip, or whatever! And, yes, it is possible to ask something like that from a player without tipping them of as to what they ought to be doing.
GM: You approach the cavern door. What cantrips did you say you had active?!
Wizard: Umm ... <thinks: if I say "Light" we're going to get ambushed. If I don't say "Light" I'm not going to see what's going on. And knowing this GM, if I say "Detect Magic" there's going to be a powerfull spell-caster in there that's going to sense me casting it> ... umm ... I don't have any cantrips active!
GM: Make a reflex save <failed> you fall down a pit.
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To a person they tell me they act that way because they've been burned by gleeful "GOTCHA!" GMs who have nailed them the one time they forgot to say "checking for traps."Jiggy, here is what I have found with the folks I game with.If I gamed with people who were like that, I'd adopt your style as well. ;)
Yeah, I certainly won't defend such a GM. In my opinion, if a trap goes off because they didn't search, they should find themselves saying "Yeah, I should've searched that, dunno what I was thinking", not "Why in the world would there be a trap THERE?!"
If a player feels the need to CONSTANTLY search for traps, then the GM (or a past GM) has done something wrong.
How about a totally crazy solution to this problem, like maybe the GM asks the player how their character is moving past the dungeon door!
I fail to see how constantly asking the players if they are doing their job is in any way any better or even significantly any different than having the players constantly remind you that they are doing their job. And frankly as a GM I'd rather not have to be in the mode of nanny or nag.
GM: You approach the cavern door. What cantrips did you say you had active?!
Wizard: Umm ... <thinks: if I say "Light" we're going to get ambushed. If I don't say "Light" I'm not going to see what's going on. And knowing this GM, if I say "Detect Magic" there's going to be a powerfull spell-caster in there that's going to sense me casting it> ... umm ... I don't have any cantrips active!
GM: Make a reflex save <failed> you fall down a pit.
This is an amazingly instructive example of precisely why I do it the way I do it. Pretty much nails several things I think makes the game less fun, less believable and less immersive. Thanks for the illustration Diplomat.
@bbt:
it's not about the situation when you have to trade something for it (e.g. combat) which bothers me, it's the situation where you have no trade (the mage who's walking behind the rouge in a dungeon with a permanent "detect magic").You mean the mage who's walking at half speed because concentrating on detect magic takes a standard action per round?
The mage who's not going to be making any perception rolls because he's concentrating for dweomers? and so on.
In the campaign I am running right now, the dungeon walls have arcane marks on the walls to indicate faction territories. The party sorcerer is keeping detect magic up all the time. It's no problem because the party bard is the best lookout and the party rogue is already moving at half speed looking for traps or indications of secret doors.
So it works out just fine. Or has so far. Everyone more or less has a job and all of them are moving slowly to stay quiet.
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AD has a good approach.
Let me illustrate this by pointing out that we all (I hope!) do what AD does, when 'assuming' that the PCs, shave, wash, go to the toilet, etc. etc.
Has any DM ever told you that your PC is dead:
'What! Why?'
'He exploded.'
'Exploded! What do you mean? Fireball? Dynamite? What?'
'He hasn't been to the toilet for 3 game years.'
'Of course he did!'
'You didn't say he'd been to the toilet! Therefore, he didn't. It's not my fault!'
Seriously, who'd game with that guy again!
It's okay, even mandatory, for the DM to make such assumptions! Who'd find it fun to keep track of their PC's ablutions? Is this why we play these games?
If it's okay for the DM to make these assumptions, it's okay for him to make basic assumptions for basic abilities. What the specifics are will vary by DM.
As a player, in my current Kingmaker campaign, I have told the DM that, unless I specifically say otherwise, Sukie will wield her Adlori Dueling Sword two-handed with Power Attack, so I don't have to say it each round. If I were playing a scout, I would say that, when scouting, I'm using Stealth unless I say I'm not.
If I were DM I'd tell the players as the campaign started to use this idea, and I wouldn't misuse times they forget to trap them.
Next time I design a dungeon I will ensure there are conveniently placed toilets.
The last house we broke into had a couple privies. Guess where we hid the bodies...
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Next time I design a dungeon I will ensure there are conveniently placed toilets.
Why do you think that they used to be known as 'conveniences'?
BTW, if the average paranoid dungeon-bashing party comes across a 5'-5' room with a sign saying, 'W.C. Perfectly Safe', how many players would have their beloved PC enter, drop trou and squat, without a care?
If the party all had such a devil-may-care attitude, I predict that the W.C. would cause a TPK!
My homes and public buildings all have water closets. My palaces and expensive hotels have magical plumbing. Including magical air fresheners.
Seriously.
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My homes and public buildings all have water closets. My palaces and expensive hotels have magical plumbing. Including magical air fresheners.
Seriously.
And this is as it should be!
But my point is, has the player said, every day, that his PC has used one? If not, does the DM assume that the PC hasn't gone to the toilet unless the player states that he did?
I don't believe DMs have this attitude. Therefore, if the DM is making such assumptions (without even thinking about it), he should be okay with the concept of making similar assumptions re: basic abilities like stealth/perception/detect x/whatever!
I am one of those role players who will occasionally have his character deal with stuff like bodily functions.
... but usually it's a pretext to do something sneaky.... ;)
AD has a good approach.
Let me illustrate this by pointing out that we all (I hope!) do what AD does, when 'assuming' that the PCs, shave, wash, go to the toilet, etc. etc.
Has any DM ever told you that your PC is dead:
'What! Why?'
'He exploded.'
'Exploded! What do you mean? Fireball? Dynamite? What?'
'He hasn't been to the toilet for 3 game years.'
'Of course he did!'
'You didn't say he'd been to the toilet! Therefore, he didn't. It's not my fault!'
Seriously, who'd game with that guy again!
It's okay, even mandatory, for the DM to make such assumptions! Who'd find it fun to keep track of their PC's ablutions? Is this why we play these games?
If it's okay for the DM to make these assumptions, it's okay for him to make basic assumptions for basic abilities. What the specifics are will vary by DM.
As a player, in my current Kingmaker campaign, I have told the DM that, unless I specifically say otherwise, Sukie will wield her Adlori Dueling Sword two-handed with Power Attack, so I don't have to say it each round. If I were playing a scout, I would say that, when scouting, I'm using Stealth unless I say I'm not.
If I were DM I'd tell the players as the campaign started to use this idea, and I wouldn't misuse times they forget to trap them.
yeah okay no, thanks for taking my question and moving it into extreme absurdity. I'm not aware of any iteration of this game that had pcs track their bowel movements. I think tracking pooping is a far cry from asking if some of the zero level spells should be more of a limited resource.
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Sneaky Lass: BE RIGHT BACK GUYS, GOTTA GO POWDER MY NOSE.
Everybody Else: Oh, okay.
Sneaky Lass: I go to steal all the shiny things in the mayor's house.
Sounds like every character my friend has ever played. ;)
Cool.
But did the DM require all the PCs to declare when they powdered their noses, and if they didn't state that they did assume they didn't, then give those PCs urinary tract infections?
My point isn't that 'bodily functions' are never referenced in game. My point is the DMs do (and should) make the assumption that PCs look after these functions off-screen without having to declare these actions. And, given that, it's okay for DMs to assume that PCs are doing the basic perception/sneak/detect actions (in appropriate circumstances) without the players needing to state it.
As AD pointed out, the consequence of DMs enforcing such declarations is that the game gets bogged down in repetitive, unfun statements, followed by the DM 'ahah!' trap the first time the player forgets to state it!
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Sneaky Lass: BE RIGHT BACK GUYS, GOTTA GO POWDER MY NOSE.
Everybody Else: Oh, okay.
Sneaky Lass: I go to steal all the shiny things in the mayor's house.
Sounds like every character my friend has ever played. ;)
Cool.
But did the DM require all the PCs to declare when they powdered their noses, and if they didn't state that they did assume they didn't, then give those PCs urinary tract infections?
My point isn't that 'bodily functions' are never referenced in game. My point is the DMs do (and should) make the assumption that PCs look after these functions off-screen without having to declare these actions. And, given that, it's okay for DMs to assume that PCs are doing the basic perception/sneak/detect actions (in appropriate circumstances) without the players needing to state it.
As AD pointed out, the consequence of DMs enforcing such declarations is that the game gets bogged down in repetitive, unfun statements, followed by the DM 'ahah!' trap the first time the player forgets to state it!
I'm not saying AD's method is wrong or anything, and I actually rather like it.
But the group I DM for are still pretty new to TTRPGs (under a year of experience for most of them) and they still love being like "I cast Detect Magic!"
One of my friend spent four days putting together "The Tiny Dragon's Guide to Prestidigitation" which is written from the perspective of a Kobold Bard. This kind of stuff is intrinsic to the activity of playing Pathfinder for them, and I would never take that away from them unless they asked me to.
But that's my group! I don't mind if other people think differently! Which is why I said it wasn't a problem in my eyes, earlier in the thread. :)
Geez,at this rate how long till DM's are just sitting by themselves with players missing the game but characters present.
Sounds like a lot of characters are already playing themselves by my book.
Don't want to say you cast light every few minutes? By a frigging continual flame coin or whatever.
Detect Magic only detects magic that people want you to find. In the world of pathfinder where its a unlimited resource EVERYONE with magic to hide has work arounds(like small sheets of lead covering pockets,drawers,wand cases,scroll cases ect..
There is NO WHERE on the planet that water is a serious issue.
The world reflects the game rules!
I myself have traps that only go off in the presence of ANY spell aura. Cast Detect Magic at the wrong time or place and you just might get a fireball to the face.
Play the game you have not that game you used to have.
Think about those 0 level spells and about how the entire world knows all about them. How they could be used in different ways and about how they could be foiled.
Wouldn't detect magic pick up lingering effects?
Like the sword that got cracked and hand a mending cast on it.
Or the gold coin or staff that had been repetitively used as the focus for a Light cantrip.
Or any form of construction that had ever been spell manipulated. Stone Shape, Wall of Stone, Excavate etc.
If Prestidigitation was used to clean and polish some boots? Or spice up some food?
Detect Magic as an always on forgone conclusion has problems as well.
And Resistance;
Resistance has a duration of 1 minute. The assumption that it's always on AND initiated just prior to any initiative roll or saving throw is hardly realistic.
I use this house rule on occasion. If a player operates on the assumption that these abilities are ALWAYS on they have to RP it.
You must say RESISTANCE' ( in a bad French accent ) every 60 seconds of REAL time.
This works with Detect Magic as well. Except it's DETECTO MAGICA ( in a Hermione Granger accent ).
This is realistic, and it's hysterically funny on the first night you use it.
Mage hand is always useful for the lazy wizard.
I like the unlimited cantrips (but limited known) and they've worked well in our game.
Interesting thing about light and dancing lights... be a low level party attacked by a swarm, and suddenly you will REALLY wish you had brought along some torches and/or oil. Plus you may need to build fires for other reasons, and having the tools to do so is always a good idea. (And remember swarms are immune to single target spells.) Having the spell available is otherwise nice, sure, but I don't find it precludes the use of mundane items.
As for detect magic... others have largely covered it well enough. It requires concentration. If you don't follow the rules for how it works, then you can't complain that it's broken when you're the one essentially breaking it. I do not assume it is always on, because it would be tiresome and distracting for the caster using it if they were to do so--and further, it has a max duration. If a 1st level wizard wants to walk down the hall yelling "detect magic!" every minute, they can, but I imagine that would get old for the PCs (even if it wasn't actually being roleplayed out by the players and the player had just said to me "this is what I'm going to do...").
Players still use the spell for identifying magic items, and it's easier for me and them just to know the loot they have, so it serves its purpose. I don't find it pervasive nor intrusive.
If I don't want them to know something's magical, that's what magic aura is for. It's a 1st level spell and doubtless accessible by any foe of note who would need it would find a way of getting it.
Most of the cantrips have fairly well built in limitations and requirements--I'd say overall they're probably even in some ways the best written spells in the game, in terms of consistency and balance. It's an aspect of the system that at least works very well for my gaming groups.
Has any DM ever told you that your PC is dead:
'What! Why?'
'He exploded.'
'Exploded! What do you mean? Fireball? Dynamite? What?'
'He hasn't been to the toilet for 3 game years.'
'Of course he did!'
'You didn't say he'd been to the toilet! Therefore, he didn't. It's not my fault!'
Actually, it has occurred to me that in this circumstance I would ask the GM to point to a rule in any rulebook that gives effects for not going to the toilet. There aren't any. I would then accuse him of invoking a house rule without informing the players, and declare that clearly since there is no reference to such things in the rulebooks that people on Golarion (or wherever) do not have the same toilet needs that we do on Earth, for whatever reason (call it magic if you will).
:P
...God, that would get super old super quick.
Yep.
That's the point.I've yet to meet a player that could actually pull this off for 3 straight hours, and that's with a functioning chronograph.
ALso as soon as is reasonable I like to use Mnemonic enhancer for extra cantrips (up to 6). Perhaps not the optimal use of magic, but options are always helpful.
Part of your issue with spells like detect magic is that you still are working with a world set pre-pathfinder.
In the 3.5 world anyone wanting to hide a wand away could just hide it in a false bottom of a drawer,in the trashcan or place it under a pillow. Only if bad luck struck and some goober cast detect magic would it be found and with detect magic a valuable resource few would have the power to walk about casting it constantly.
In Pathfinder ANY swinging monkeycaster can cast Detect Magic at will. The young student down the street castes Detect Magic for 48 hours strait until he passed out because he was trying to beat the record.
EVERYONE knows this. EVERYONE now lines a wand case with a thing lead sheet and THEN hides it. Drawers in desks are lined with a thin lead sheet.
Heck some coat pockets are lined with a thing lead sheet! Hats,cloaks,canes with lead lined hollow tubes.
Then there are the spells!
You don't think every teacher now knows spells that hide from detect magic or make it worthless?
Detect Magic is a 0 level spell. The Arch-Mages can't come up with something to better it?
In my game Detect Magic started a spell war.
First there was detect magic at 0 level.
Then Obscure Magic at 3rd.
Pierce Magic at 5th.
Hide Magic at 6th.
Seek Magic at 7th.
Remove Magic Aura at 8th.
Find Magic at 9th.
All that from just a 0 level spell.
Magic is the technology of a D&D world.
For every 100 Mages trying to outdo the others with some new invented spell or way to use a old one there are at least 200 trying to stop them or create a work around.
It's only us the overwrought DM's who fail to take all that into account.
The BEST way to get around this issue is give the party a magic treasure and let them know someone who can use spells is coming for it.
Inside a half hour you will have 10 ways to work around detect magic.
You say that as if it is a bad thing. Just because Pathfinder is newer doesn't mean everything in it is necessarily better. Any idea how heavy lead is? Thos thin lead sheets would add quite a bit of extra weight to say nothing of how much lead would be required to make all of those lead items. Sounds like an alchemists dream, lead being worth more than gold due to all this demand!
Next time I design a dungeon I will ensure there are conveniently placed toilets.Why do you think that they used to be known as 'conveniences'?
BTW, if the average paranoid dungeon-bashing party comes across a 5'-5' room with a sign saying, 'W.C. Perfectly Safe', how many players would have their beloved PC enter, drop trou and squat, without a care?
If the party all had such a devil-may-care attitude, I predict that the W.C. would cause a TPK!
I actually published a dungeon in 1982 that had quite a few WC's in it. The refuse was teleported outside the dungeon. And yes they were generally about the safest place in the dungeon as a matter of fact!
http://www.amazon.com/Search-Kelandors-Gold-Judges-Guild/dp/B000FM7HNQNow if you are looking for a place that would get the players paranoid of ever using one again see level 1 of Rappan Athuk and Dungie!
I am one of those role players who will occasionally have his character deal with stuff like bodily functions.
... but usually it's a pretext to do something sneaky.... ;)
This, and the rest of the discussion, reminds me of the scene in Kelly's Heroes where they are all sitting around and they get strafed. After everything is all done, one of the soldiers walks up stuffing his shirt into his pants, and asks what happened. After berating him for a moment, he responds that he was "on the can." Amazingly he had gone far enough away to miss the aircraft, machine guns, and explosions.
On the original topic, what I don't like is the unlimited attacks of Acid Splash and the other 0-Level spells, while at the same time, they removed the 0-Level Cure Minor Wounds.
I've also seen several cases where the "Acid splashers" took care of the monster and everyone else just stood around. Acid Splash used no resources, and the victim couldn't fight back or escape.
I think there needs to be some sort of limit on the number of times you can cast 0-Level spells, but I am not sure what it should be.
I think that Cure Minor Wounds should return too, but give it a casting time of one minute or something. You can heal everyone up, but it is going to take all day.
Have you seen a players equipment list?
4 ounces is nothing.
Besides I'm not suggesting that PLAYERS would carry around large stacks of lead but that people know how detect magic works and use lead when hiding something.
Lining one drawer in a small sheet of lead isn't going to break your bank or be too prohibitive IF your the type of person to have magic items you want to hide.
New to board so not sure if this goes here but....
From my house rules...
Obscure Magic Level-Wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components-V,S
Range- 60 ft
Area- 60 foot radius
Duration- 1 day per level
Saving Throw-None Spell Resistance-None
Obscure Magic Hides all magical auras from detection that are present at its casting. For the duration of the spell any magical auras in the spells area of effect will be undetectable with detect magic and other lower level detection spells.
See Hide Magic Wizard 6th for a permanent version of this spell.
New to board so not sure if this goes here but....
From my house rules...
Obscure Magic Level-Wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components-V,S
Range- 60 ft
Area- 60 foot radius
Duration- 1 day per level
Saving Throw-None Spell Resistance-NoneObscure Magic Hides all magical auras from detection that are present at its casting. For the duration of the spell any magical auras in the spells area of effect will be undetectable with detect magic and other lower level detection spells.
See Hide Magic Wizard 6th for a permanent version of this spell.
Probably easier to say "as magic aura, but it only makes items appear as nonmagical, and affects all items within the spell's radius." Although you should also specify what happens if identify is cast on an affected item, but you should probably clarify that anyway.
Have you ever cast lead? Lead is very soft and quite brittle in thin sheets unless you add a hardiner to it like linotype. Even then it would be hard to get it to cast in sheets much thinner than a 1/32" thick and expect it not to break. It is not like gold where you can roll it into foil. At that thickness it weighs 1 lb/sqft.
Hmmm, after doing the math, I seem to have proved yours. Still this is using modern manufacturing processes.