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Hey folks, this Masterpiece was dismissed as being a lesser version of Planar Ally, but I've spent some time with it and it seems that its critics are simply assuming such. The following is how I understand this ability based on RAW. There's room for correction and discussion, for sure, but it seems that Legato is extremely powerful given its perfect blend of conditions needed to obtain a magically binding agreement with said Outsider. So if you have some insights, or just feel like hammering out the RAW, please read on :)
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Your Ultimate Summons. This Masterpiece allows for the Calling of Outsiders up to 12 HD, which can be one Outsider, or two of the same whose combined HD do not exceed 12. The outsider called need not be one associated with your deity, nor evil, and so your list of options is impressive. And you are able to Call specific individuals, which allows for a huge amount of pre-negotiation and alliances (though the GM may decide that a different individual is called in any given performance). Because these beings are Called, not summoned, they can remain as long as is needed to complete a task. Some negotiation is required, but Legato Piece grants some unique advantages, and the willingness of the summoned creature comes down to an Opposed Charisma check, which you will dominate. And by agreeing to the task, they are magically bound to both complete it, and to abide the terms of the negotiation.
Legato Piece on the Infermal Bargain takes 10 Minutes! That'll never be a practical effect, will it?
Both Planar Ally and Planar Summoning also take 10 minutes. Legato Piece provides the best of both spell-effects, making the bard's version far more powerful than its analogues.
How is it more powerful?
Because this ability mixes the mechanics of Planar Ally and Planar Binding, one need not bind and torture this outsider, nor is one required to pay it, though doing so will grant you a bonus on the opposed Charisma check. As with Planar Ally, you can Call specific individuals each time you perform Legato, which means if you have treated it well in the past, its attitude toward you might become progressively more helpful, and if not, it will be set to Indifferent by the magics of this Masterpiece.
Unlike Planar Ally, payment is not required; instead Legato uses the Planar Binding rules to resolve the negotiation. If payment is offered (as defined in Planar Ally), if the Outsider has a Helpful attitude, and if the task matches the Outsider's racial ethos, then you will receive a bonus from +0 to +6 to your Opposed Charisma check. Your GM may choose to apply a penalty to this check if the opposites are true (though this is purely GM fiat, the rules do not call for negatives), and if this is the case, one should strive to offset such negatives.
Because you are given a full minute to negotiate, using At the Heart of it All takes 30 seconds, and will grant you an Untyped +4 bonus to your Opposed Charisma check, Good Hope will grant you another +2 Moral bonus, and you should also be wearing a Circlet of Persuasion, which grants an additional +3 Competence bonus. Keep in mind that this negotiation is a magical effect, and so it can be nullified via Spell Resistance, but the agreement to serve is magically binding.
To sum it all up: You can call a specific Outsider whose attitude is Indifferent, which can then be improved to Helpful via Diplomacy, who will agree to perform a task that is not Impossible or Obviously Suicidal (such as asking a Glabrezu to become a good aligned creature, or asking a lone Archon to travel to the deepest pits of hell and slay the old gods with a spork). Your GM may set a low bar for these two conditions, and so be prepared to think creatively during the negotiation ;) If you win the Opposed Charisma check, the outsider is magically bound to complete the task, after which it will inform you of completion and immediately return to its native plane.
Why would an Evil Outsider aid you and not betray you?
First and foremost, the outsider is magically bound. Bardic Performances, and thus Masterpies are Supernatural effects. It may also find personal pleasure in the task, it may like the reward, and most importantly because it likes you. Put this ability in the context that a Bard is using it. Bards are supernaturally charming, this is not a roleplaying cop out, it is a fact of this specific ability as written and of the Bard's abilities in general. Think of Tim Curry's portrayal of the Prince of Darkness in the movie Legend, he loved this mortal woman and struggled against his nature to please her. Ultimately his wicked nature won out; but we wont be employing these evil beings for any great length of time, nor all that often.
What sort of Outsiders can I Call, and how should I use them?
Consider these circumstances:
- You're facing an enemy that summons, or that employs lots of decently tough cohorts.
Solution: Summon some muscle.
- You're facing an enemy that does lots of AoE.
Solution: Summon an outsider which can grant protection against elemental types, and/or one that can heal.
- You're facing a powerful spell-caster.
Solution: Summon an outsider who can cast Dispel Magic, or which has Spell Resistance.
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And also, it seems that this can be repeated ad nauseam, gaining an army of 12 HD Outsiders for the duration of the task. Pretty wicked for a Bard effect.
At level 11, with 31 rounds of BP, that's 3 Glabrezus bound to a task such as "In three days, you will help me ambush and kill the evil king and his army as he travels through this area. Do nothing to harm anyone or anything until I instruct otherwise, sitting there <points> doing nothing until I instruct otherwise." Day Two: 3 more Glabrezus. Day Three: 3 more Glabrezus. An 11th level Bard with a possible 9 Glabrezus.
Since they must stick around until the task is complete, or until the end of the 11th day, I could technically get 3 Glabrezus per day for 11 days. 33 Glabrezus.
As a GM, I'm a little concerned ;)
you are able to Call specific individuals
How'd you figure that? If I missed something and you can indeed call specific individuals, then this Masterpiece has some intriguing additional possibilities. Since there's no save, you could prep a battlefield and then simply call in the BBEG if it's an outsider; he'd even be indifferent for up to a minute. Or teleport party members to you, if they're Tieflings or Aasimars.
by agreeing to the task, they are magically bound to both complete it, and to abide the terms of the negotiation.
I'm not seeing that in the rules. It's a contract at best, not a mind control.
this negotiation is a magical effect
No it isn't. The Outsider's presence and starting attitude is magically determined, anything else can be mundane. That's my take on it anyway.
If you win the Opposed Charisma check, the outsider is magically bound to complete the task
I'm not convinced the creature is "bound" as such, but the Performance stipulates the Outsider will agree when you win the opposed Cha check. And that's all that matters, really.
In the hands of a crafty player, this Masterpiece can certainly pull its weight. But will you use it often enough to justify the costs?
Edit: Oh, and another thing: what if the negotiations fail? The Outsider is Called, and not bound by any summoning circle. It may decide to go on a rampage instead of leaving quietly...
Point of note: The performance does mention payment specifically. I believe you still need to offer payment equivalent to a Planar Ally.
Legato Piece on the Infernal Bargain:
"This fast-paced tune harmonizes with the magical frequencies of another plane, allowing you to draw an extraplanar creature to you and bargain for its service. When you complete this performance, you call one or more outsiders as if using planar ally. Unlike with planar ally, the creature is not necessarily associated with your deity, and has an initial attitude of “indifferent” toward you. Because it is intrigued by your performance, it remains for up to 1 minute to hear the service you are requesting and the payment you are offering. If you succeed at an opposed Charisma check against the creature (with a +0 to +6 bonus on your roll based on the nature of the service and the offered reward), it agrees to perform the service. This ability otherwise works like planar ally."
Can you point out in this description where it says any of the following:
1) You do not have to pay the outsiders (it works like planar ally)
2) That you can improve its attitude before making the Charisma check (you get 1 minute to explain the service and the payment offered, not to screw around with diplomacy and other performances)
3) That the creature is magically bound to complete the task (it seems to me that they just agree to do it in exchange for payment and no magical force is enacted)
4) Where is anything about Planar Binding mentioned?
It sure seems to me that this is basically "Bardic Planar Ally" and that it offers no advantage over the normal version.
Heya, and thank you for having this discussion with me. Please read my responses as fact checking, rather than rebuttal :) If I can't source the RAW, then I will revise that section.
I'm not seeing that in the rules. It's a contract at best, not a mind control.
Its found within the RAW of this quote from the general section on Conjuration:
Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.
As to what triggers its ability to Not Obey the agreement/command, that is found within the specific language of the spell used to Call them. In this case, Legato Piece, Planar Ally, and to a lesser extent Planar Binding.
Because it is intrigued by your performance, it remains for up to 1 minute to hear the service you are requesting and the payment you are offering. If you succeed at an opposed Charisma check against the creature (with a +0 to +6 bonus on your roll based on the nature of the service and the offered reward), it agrees to perform the service.
Legato uses the Planar Binding condition that if I fail to win the opposed Charisma check, it is not then magically bound to to any agreement. If I win the check, it must complete the task, and abide the terms of the agreement as per Conjuration.
Few if any creatures will accept a task that seems suicidal (remember, a called creature actually dies when it is killed, unlike a summoned creature)
Planar Ally allows the Called creature to refuse to agree to Suicidal tasks. If the task isn't suicidal, though it may be dangerous, so long as I win the opposed Charisma check, it is then magically bound to complete the task, and abide the terms of the agreement.
You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature's Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service. New offers, bribes, and the like can be made or the old ones reoffered every 24 hours. This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell. Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. If you ever roll a natural 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the spell's effect and can escape or attack you.
This passage from Planar Binding is not actually the language of Legato Piece. However it is the source from which its Opposed Charisma check mechanic is derived. There are a set of conditions within this passage which will also grant the Called outsider the ability to refuse the command. But again, once it agrees to the negotiated task and terms, it is magically bound by the Conjuration general rule to obey.
No it isn't. The Outsider's presence and starting attitude is magically determined, anything else can be mundane. That's my take on it anyway.
Everything that happens between the conjurer and the conjured is regulated by the permissions and conditions of the magical effect used to Conjure. What you are asserting would be true only if the Bard encounters the outsider at, say, a Bar, or tanning next to the pool at the country club. In that case, a negotiation would not be a magical effect, and the conditions of obeyance granted by Conjuration magic aren't present.
How'd you figure that? If I missed something and you can indeed call specific individuals, then this Masterpiece has some intriguing additional possibilities.
Its found within the specific permissions granted by Planar Ally:
If you know an individual creature's name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell (though you might get a different creature anyway)
This only grants the possibility, and so one would need to ask their GM if he will allow this possibility as a generally predictable result.
I'm not convinced the creature is "bound" as such, but the Performance stipulates the Outsider will agree when you win the opposed Cha check. And that's all that matters, really.
As was shown above, the only way that the creature is able to "not obey" is if the task is suicidal, and if you lose the Opposed Charisma check. The Opposed Charisma check is you asserting your will over it, or cowing it into submission, or sweet talking it, or however one prefers to think of it. But a successful check forces the Called creature into obeyance whether it likes the task or not. And until its task is complete, or until X numbers of days have passed, it is bound to complete said task and by the terms that are forced upon it.
Basically Calling is a specific type of magic, and all of its language and permissions are magical. The logic here is the same as a creature under the effect of a Charm spell (though the Conjuration clause is not Mind-affecting, but rather a specific component of Conjuration magic). A creature that is under the effect of Charm Person, is under a magical effect. Charm person has specific language which allows an affected creature to ignore certain complusions and even to attempt additional saves, but it is otherwise bound by the specific language within the spell. Again, the ways in which a Called creature is able to not obey are specifically defined by the means by which they are Called (Legato Piece, Planar Ally, and Planar Binding in this case)
Edit: Oh, and another thing: what if the negotiations fail? The Outsider is Called, and not bound by any summoning circle. It may decide to go on a rampage instead of leaving quietly...
Yeah, there's some risk here for sure :) If one rolls a Natural 1 on the Opposed Charisma check, Planar Binding says that "the creature breaks free of the spell's effect and can escape or attack you." However, Planar Binding assume that the creature is trapped in a Magic Circle. In this case, its not and remains for 1 minute because it is Intrigued. Its attitude is Indifferent, and so if the negotiation fails it will just leave. There's no language suggesting that a failed negotiation should lead to ruin and carnage.
Yeah, lets see if we can't source and hammer out these points :)
Can you point out in this description where it says any of the following:
1) You do not have to pay the outsiders (it works like planar ally)
That is found within the specific exceptions listed in Legato Piece:
Unlike with planar ally, the creature is not necessarily associated with your deity, and has an initial attitude of “indifferent” toward you. Because it is intrigued by your performance, it remains for up to 1 minute to hear the service you are requesting and the payment you are offering. If you succeed at an opposed Charisma check against the creature (with a +0 to +6 bonus on your roll based on the nature of the service and the offered reward), it agrees to perform the service.
Planar Ally requires payment to obtain agreeance, however, Legato calls for an Opposed Charisma check. One can offer No Payment, but if one does offer payment, doing so will grant him a bonus to the Opposed check.
2) That you can improve its attitude before making the Charisma check (you get 1 minute to explain the service and the payment offered, not to screw around with diplomacy and other performances)
This is incorrect. By specifically calling out that its attitude is Indifferent, it is referring to the Diplomacy rule, which is what regulates attitudes. In one minute, one can attempt to improve its attitude toward yourself or the task at hand via diplomacy, or spells such as Charm Monster, Dominate Monster, Vengeful Outrage, Gease, etc. Diplomacy being non-magical is the safe road, and as one can see in the Diplomacy rules, coaxing a creature into having a Helpful attitude is.. helpful.
3) That the creature is magically bound to complete the task (it seems to me that they just agree to do it in exchange for payment and no magical force is enacted)
I have sourced this rule in my response to VMHR :) Creatures will obey commands when Called, but are given specific means by which they can refuse--as detailed in each individual method of Calling.
4) Where is anything about Planar Binding mentioned?
Legato Piece is not simply Planar Ally. The Opposed Charisma check is derived from Planar Binding, and to understand how Legato deviates from Planar Ally, we must look at its source.
It sure seems to me that this is basically "Bardic Planar Ally" and that it offers no advantage over the normal version.
Not having to pay, Indifferent attitude, and the fact that it opens up the entire library of Outsiders 12 HD or less are quite significant.
Point of note: The performance does mention payment specifically. I believe you still need to offer payment equivalent to a Planar Ally.
Here is the line in question:
If you succeed at an opposed Charisma check against the creature (with a +0 to +6 bonus on your roll based on the nature of the service and the offered reward), it agrees to perform the service.
Offering it payment grants you a bonus to the opposed check. Not offering it a payment is simply the opposed check.
That is found within the specific exceptions listed in Legato Piece:
Unlike with planar ally, the creature is not necessarily associated with your deity, and has an initial attitude of “indifferent” toward you. Because it is intrigued by your performance, it remains for up to 1 minute to hear the service you are requesting and the payment you are offering. If you succeed at an opposed Charisma check against the creature (with a +0 to +6 bonus on your roll based on the nature of the service and the offered reward), it agrees to perform the service.Planar Ally requires payment to obtain agreeance, however, Legato calls for an Opposed Charisma check. One can offer No Payment, but if one does offer payment, doing so will grant him a bonus to the Opposed check.
I think you are reading into this charisma check a lot.
You are assuming it's some kind of a bonus effect replacing the cash, rather than what I see it as: an extra chance for the power the fail.
It looks to me that everything is identical, including requiring a payment, and then you also have to roll an opposed Charisma check or it fails anyway.
Also note that payment does not equal reward. You must pay them for the service, then you can get a bonus on the roll by asking for something aligned with their outlook or giving a reward. The reward is on top of the payment.
This is incorrect. By specifically calling out that its attitude is Indifferent, it is referring to the Diplomacy rule, which is what regulates attitudes. In one minute, one can attempt to improve its attitude toward yourself or the task at hand via diplomacy, or spells such as Charm Monster, Dominate Monster, Vengeful Outrage, Gease, etc. Diplomacy being non-magical is the safe road, and as one can see in the Diplomacy rules, coaxing a creature into having a Helpful attitude is.. helpful.
It is using the term Indifferent to indicate that there are no bonues to the Charisma check from attitude and so that a normally hostile thing won't immediately kill you, nor will a normally helpful thing instantly help anyway. The Indifference is there to make the power work at all. It is one minute "to hear the service you are requesting and the payment you are offering." It is not one minute to do whatever you feel like.
And also note, it specifically calls out the payment in this line--it definitely still stands.
I have sourced this rule in my response to VMHR :) Creatures will obey commands when Called, but are given specific means by which they can refuse--as detailed in each individual method of Calling.
I think, once again, you are misinterpreting this.
"Creatures you conjure usually- but not always- obey your commands."
It does not say "creatures you conjure are magically obligated to obey your commands unless the spell specifically says they are not."
Further, the idea that "Calling" is "conjuring" a creature is silly to me. That would mean teleporting targets is conjuring them. If I use Ice Crystal Teleport on an enemy, do they suddenly obey my commands because I conjured them and the spell doesn't say otherwise?
No, Planar Allies are not bound in any way--they make a deal with you in exchange for money.
Legato Piece is not simply Planar Ally. The Opposed Charisma check is derived from Planar Binding, and to understand how Legato deviates from Planar Ally, we must look at its source.
No, it is simply Planar Ally with an extra Charisma check with the potential to fail. You are deciding it includes Planar Binding because it includes a similar mechanic, but you can't actually jump to conclusions like that. Abilities do what they say they do and no more. Similar mechanics do not make them work the same.
For example, not long ago was a thread on this forum asking about Mage Armor giving reduced AC for tiny people because it was like real armor and real armor gave reduced AC for tiny people.
Just because the Charisma check is similar to Planar Binding does not mean this ability functions in any way like Planar Binding. It functions exactly as it says it functions: as Planar Ally with an extra fail condition.
Not having to pay, Indifferent attitude, and the fact that it opens up the entire library of Outsiders 12 HD or less are quite significant.
But I believe you do have to pay, and being indifferent does not suddenly open Diplomacy to Helpful as an option. To me, the only advantage is that there is no alignment restriction--but that is balanced by an extra fail condition.
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This is incorrect. By specifically calling out that its attitude is Indifferent, it is referring to the Diplomacy rule, which is what regulates attitudes. In one minute, one can attempt to improve its attitude toward yourself or the task at hand via diplomacy, or spells such as Charm Monster, Dominate Monster, Vengeful Outrage, Gease, etc. Diplomacy being non-magical is the safe road, and as one can see in the Diplomacy rules, coaxing a creature into having a Helpful attitude is.. helpful.
I agree that the Charisma check seems to replace the payment.
However, you are not getting a full minute, but up to a minute. Which means that the creature can decide to leave earlier if you are not starting to talk about the service and the payment.
Way I see it, you can indeed try some Diplomacy roll (to see how well you word your request) and try to convince the GM to give you an additional bonus to your CHA roll. Note however that, by RAW, only the service and the reward are taken into consideration for calculating the bonus.
And if you try to cast a spell at your extraplanar guest, he can just disappear in thin air, as nothing binds him to stay the full minute.
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I think you are reading into this charisma check a lot.
You are assuming it's some kind of a bonus effect replacing the cash, rather than what I see it as: an extra chance for the power the fail.
Ah, I can see where you're coming from. However, Legato Piece doesn't say "in addition to" it says "Unlike." It then describes all of the ways that Legato Differs from Planar Ally. This means In Replacement Of, not In Addition To.
Let me pull out the specific line on this matter:
If you succeed at an opposed Charisma check against the creature (with a +0 to +6 bonus on your roll based on the nature of the service and the offered reward), it agrees to perform the service.
There are two sentences here, the first being the complete rule:
1. If you Succeed at an opposed Charisma check against the creature, it agrees to perform the service.2. With a +0 to +6 bonus on your roll based on the nature of the service and the offered reward.
The Charisma check Replaces the payment as the means by which one gets the Called outsider to agree. That is explicitly clear. Also, perhaps you're missing the context of the parenthetical statement. If it does not like the task, and if you offer no reward, then you do not get a bonus to your Opposed check. The direct context in which the payment is mentioned is specifically about getting a bonus, it is not stated as a requirement but as an incentive.
Also note that payment does not equal reward. You must pay them for the service, then you can get a bonus on the roll by asking for something aligned with their outlook or giving a reward. The reward is on top of the payment.
Unfortunately this is an interpretation irrespective of context: "and the offered reward." Its not a required payment, its a reward to improve its attitude toward the service.
It is using the term Indifferent to indicate that there are no bonues to the Charisma check from attitude and so that a normally hostile thing won't immediately kill you, nor will a normally helpful thing instantly help anyway. The Indifference is there to make the power work at all. It is one minute "to hear the service you are requesting and the payment you are offering." It is not one minute to do whatever you feel like.
Ah, sorry again bud :( This is all conjecture. Attitude does not directly adjust the Charisma check at all, not even positively. However, Attitude is a game mechanic that is applicable in any social challenge, and changing someone's attitude to Helpful confers synergistic benefits. The full context is "initial Attitude of Indifferent," which means that it can be adjusted. Diplomacy is the non-magical means to do this. There are no specific clauses which prohibit the use of Diplomacy during this minute long negotiation. Though your choice to Golden Rule it otherwise is probably fine at your table, but is not something one can stand on in a general, RAW-based discussion.
I think, once again, you are misinterpreting this.
"Creatures you conjure usually- but not always- obey your commands."
It does not say "creatures you conjure are magically obligated to obey your commands unless the spell specifically says they are not."
A few things going on here :) Yes, those are not its specific words. Your interpretation is also not its specific words. And so one would need to find support in the printed material to validate either position. :) I am not married to this interpretation, however, I've spent quite a bit of time looking into it. Some things to consider:
1. That line is not GM fiat. This is an explanation that unless some other specific rule gives the Called creature a right to refuse, it will obey your commands. Because this is taken from the General Rule on Conjured creatures, the game designers must write it in a way that acknowledges that specific clauses might be exceptions to the default assumption. The default assumption is that they will obey your commands, as they would be if you Summoned a creature. Conjuration effects are magical. Therefore it is magic which causes them to obey your commands.
If your position were true, after you have paid it and made your opposed Charisma check, even if you succeed it could then just kill you, or return home since Calling "grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin." Since it is not magically bound to complete the task, this spell will never work. The Developers did not make a spell which never works. If you would like RAI, this is Legato's fluff: "Your skilled playing can conjure up supernatural servants."
2. Because the creature is expected to obey commands by default, what would trigger said creature to not obey? Again, this is not GM Fiat, each spell calls out specific ways by which the Called entity can refuse to be bound to the terms of the command. I have already gone into detail on this in my previous post, but lets cover it again for good measure: 1. Obviously Suicidal 2. You lose the Opposed Charisma check. Those are the only two conditions by which it is allowed to refuse to obey.
3. The following Lines support my position that it is magically bound:
At the end of its task, or when the duration bargained for expires, the creature returns to its home plane (after reporting back to you, if appropriate and possible).
And this one from Planar Binding, which assumes that the creature has been imprisoned and tortured, giving it every reason to kill you or simply return home in the absence of it being magically bound to complete the task:
Once the requested service is completed, the creature need only to inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came. The creature might later seek revenge. If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete through its own actions, the spell remains in effect for a maximum of 1 day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free (with the same chance to resist as when it was trapped). Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions.
That would be a very courteous Glabrezu, especially since you wracked it with pain, and entrapped it until it caved in.
Both lines are explaining that it is magically bound to abide the terms of the service until said task is complete, or until enough time has passed that the magical binding has expired (1 day per caster level).
Further, the idea that "Calling" is "conjuring" a creature is silly to me.
Ah, I do not mean to be rude, but I thought from reading some of your other thread contributions that you had better game mastery. Calling is a specific sub-type of Conjuration. Teleportation is also a specific sub-type of Conjuration. Planar Ally Calls an Outsider. Teleporting your friend is not Calling your friend. Please read the relevant passage here:
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
The creature or object must appear within the spell's range, but it does not have to remain within the range.
Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can't be dispelled.
Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates. If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.
Healing: Certain divine conjurations heal creatures or even bring them back to life.
Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have.
Teleportation: A teleportation spell transports one or more creatures or objects a great distance. The most powerful of these spells can cross planar boundaries. Unlike summoning spells, the transportation is (unless otherwise noted) one-way and not dispellable.
Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation.
you can't actually jump to conclusions like that. Abilities do what they say they do and no more.
It functions exactly as it says it functions: as Planar Ally with an extra fail condition.
These two statements cannot coexist when made in the same argument by the same person :P
However, you are not getting a full minute, but up to a minute. Which means that the creature can decide to leave earlier if you are not starting to talk about the service and the payment.
And if you try to cast a spell at your extraplanar guest, he can just disappear in thin air, as nothing binds him to stay the full minute.
Ah, good point and good call :) You're suggesting that until he agrees, he is not magically bound to remain. So long as the Bard doesn't 'attack' the Outsider, I would agree. Note that casting Compulsion effects on an unwilling target counts as attacking. Negotiation is governed by Diplomacy and the relevant text is:
Diplomacy is generally ineffective in combat and against creatures that intend to harm you or your allies in the immediate future.
Well, you just attacked it, entering combat and the Outsider now intends to harm you or your allies in the immediate future. :) Good call.
However, I would postulate that so long as the Bard does not attack, the entity could not leave before 1 minute is up because Legato Piece grants the Bard a full minute. The Bard may conclude before 60 seconds has elapsed, but not before. Hence, "up to" 1 minute, as needed. It is a specifically called out duration, and so the creature must remain until that minute is up (unless attacked which would end negotiations). I'm standing on the principle that explicit clauses do exactly what they say they do, and that minute is an explicit clause.
Very good point though, I'll have to amend the guide that I'm working on based on this point :) Thank you!
I wanted to pull this quote out specifically to dispel the notion that the terms of service aren't magically binding.
Once the requested service is completed, the creature need only to inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came. The creature might later seek revenge. If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete through its own actions, the spell remains in effect for a maximum of 1 day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free (with the same chance to resist as when it was trapped). Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions.
If it is not magically bound, then what exactly is it breaking free of? Reading the entire passage, which lists several ways in which the magical binding can be broken, it is impossible not to see that the creature is magically bound.
If someone can find an explicit clause somewhere which contradicts this, that would be very helpful and insightful :)
Ah, I can see where you're coming from. However, Legato Piece doesn't say "in addition to" it says "Unlike." It then describes all of the ways that Legato Differs from Planar Ally. This means In Replacement Of, not In Addition To.
Nothing in the power says you do not have to pay.
You change the things it says--not other stuff. You have to succeed at a Charisma check to get them to agree and nothing says you don't have to pay.
You are assuming that since you have to make a Charisma check, you don't need to pay the costs, but you can't make that assumption. Nothing in the power backs that up.
Planar Ally states:
"The creature called requires a payment for its services. This payment can take a variety of forms, from donating gold or magic items to an allied temple, to a gift given directly to the creature, to some other action on your part that matches the creature's alignment and goals. Regardless, this payment must be made before the creature agrees to perform any services."
You have to pay before it agrees. The assumption of the power is that they automatically agree, because it is a servant of your deity. Legato allows you to call creatures that might not agree automatically (and in fact, enforces that they won't by making them indifferent), so you have to make a Charisma check to get them to agree. Nothing about Legato changes that they require payment before they agree.
Let me pull out the specific line on this matter:
If you succeed at an opposed Charisma check against the creature (with a +0 to +6 bonus on your roll based on the nature of the service and the offered reward), it agrees to perform the service.There are two sentences here, the first being the complete rule:
1. If you Succeed at an opposed Charisma check against the creature, it agrees to perform the service.
2. With a +0 to +6 bonus on your roll based on the nature of the service and the offered reward.The Charisma check Replaces the payment as the means by which one gets the Called outsider to agree. That is explicitly clear.
It is not explicitly clear that it replaces anything. Nothing in the description says so--it requires something additional.
For example:
Buying a hat from a store requires $10.
Buying a hat from a guy on the street requires that you convince the guy to sell the hat to you and $10.
That's what happening--the payment is unchanged and you have to convince them.
Also, perhaps you're missing the context of the parenthetical statement. If it does not like the task, and if you offer no reward, then you do not get a bonus to your Opposed check. The direct context in which the payment is mentioned is specifically about getting a bonus, it is not stated as a requirement but as an incentive.
I disagree that the fact that you get a bonus for offering a Reward in any way suggests you don't also have to pay.
Unfortunately this is an interpretation irrespective of context: "and the offered reward." Its not a required payment, its a reward to improve its attitude toward the service.
Correct, it is something added to make the Charisma roll easier. It has nothing to do with the payment--which still must be made.
There are no specific clauses which prohibit the use of Diplomacy during this minute long negotiation.
I don't see why it would have to--the power literally tells you what happens during that minute.
1. That line is not GM fiat. This is an explanation that unless some other specific rule gives the Called creature a right to refuse, it will obey your commands.
No, that line ("Creatures you conjure usually- but not always- obey your commands.") is part of the general conjuration rules, not part of the Called subsection.
The called section says only:
"Calling: a calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can't be dispelled."
Therefore, if you think a Called creature is "conjured" and thus the line about obeying your commands applies, then it should apply equally to people you teleport, which is also a conjuring effect.
In fact, calling is just teleporting except the target gets the ability to go back again.
Because this is taken from the General Rule on Conjured creatures, the game designers must write it in a way that acknowledges that specific clauses might be exceptions to the default assumption. The default assumption is that they will obey your commands, as they would be if you Summoned a creature.
Again, that is not taken from the rule on Calling. It is from the general conjuration rules. You are interpreting "conjuring" to include calling. I am considering calling to be closer to teleportation than summoning.
Since it is not magically bound to complete the task, this spell will never work.
I think we were not arguing the same thing. They agree to do the task if you succeed, so I suppose you could call that a type of magical binding. But it's not bound to you in any way other than the deal you made.
2. Because the creature is expected to obey commands by default
I do not agree that a called creature is conjured anymore than a teleported creature is conjured.
And this one from Planar Binding
Which I believe has absolutely nothing to do with Legato at all.
Ah, I do not mean to be rude, but I thought from reading some of your other thread contributions that you had better game mastery. Calling is a specific sub-type of Conjuration. Teleportation is also a specific sub-type of Conjuration. Planar Ally Calls an Outsider. Teleporting your friend is not Calling your friend. Please read the relevant passage here:
Yes, I do know the rules. Please note that the line you quote is in a general section about conjuration, and not part of the calling sub section. That is what I'm talking about.
mplindustries wrote:
you can't actually jump to conclusions like that. Abilities do what they say they do and no more.
Quote:
It functions exactly as it says it functions: as Planar Ally with an extra fail condition.
These two statements cannot coexist when made in the same argument by the same person :P
They can because it explicitly says it functions as Planar Ally then adds some stuff to it. You are assuming those added things are replacing other stuff there is no indication is replaced, whereas I am not.
I wanted to pull this quote out specifically to dispel the notion that the terms of service aren't magically binding.
Once the requested service is completed, the creature need only to inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came. The creature might later seek revenge. If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete through its own actions, the spell remains in effect for a maximum of 1 day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free (with the same chance to resist as when it was trapped). Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions.If it is not magically bound, then what exactly is it breaking free of? Reading the entire passage, which lists several ways in which the magical binding can be broken, it is impossible not to see that the creature is magically bound.
If someone can find an explicit clause somewhere which contradicts this, that would be very helpful and insightful :)
Please stop referencing Planar Binding as if it means something to this discussion when nothing in the Legato text mentions Planar Binding in any way.
It is not explicitly clear that it replaces anything. Nothing in the description says so--it requires something additional.
Legato Piece says "Unlike with planar ally." That should be explicitly clear.
You change the things it says--not other stuff.
I agree, and so when Legato Piece says "Unlike with planar ally" it means In Replacement Of, not In Addition To. And it goes on to say
If you succeed at an opposed Charisma check against the creature... it agrees to perform the service.
The text in the parenthesis is taken directly from Planar Binding:
The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward.
The Opposed Charisma check from Planar Binding replaces the Payment requirement of Planar Ally. The parenthetical statement comes from Planar Binding and is specifically a reward as incentive.
No, that line ("Creatures you conjure usually- but not always- obey your commands.") is part of the general conjuration rules, not part of the Called subsection.
I apologize, I can't wrap my head around your position. Conjuration is a type of Magic. The General section on Conjuration has rules which govern all types of Conjurations. Unless a sub-type, or a specific spell-effect contains explicit clauses which call for exceptions, all Conjurations are governed by the General rule. There are five sub-types:
1. Calling2. Creation
3. Healing
4. Summoning
6. Teleportation
They are all conjurations, and so are always written in the following format within a magical effect's description:
School conjuration (calling) [see text]; Level cleric 4
Not all Conjurations are Calling, but all Callings are Conjuration.
Therefore, if you think a Called creature is "conjured" and thus the line about obeying your commands applies, then it should apply equally to people you teleport, which is also a conjuring effect.
In fact, calling is just teleporting except the target gets the ability to go back again.
This is an interesting dilemma as far as Teleporting is concerned. One that probably warrants its own thread, some research, and maybe even an FAQ. Even so, Calling is Not Teleportation, they are different effect types.
However, there is precedent for my position on Calling and the General Rule. Lets look at Gate, which is a Conjuration (Creation or Calling) spell. Read Gate's spell description Here, but note this following passage:
If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level. A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.
What kind of control, and to what extent? It does not explicitly identify the extent of the control, and so we must default to the General Rule of Conjured Creatures. As a result, we know that this creature will Obey our Commands for the duration of the Calling (1 round/lvl). As for the "usually" and "not always" clauses of the General Rule, the next paragraph explains that it is controlled unless the following explicit clause applies:
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications. Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.
Freed from what? Your command. And so the Gate spell follows the fundamental assumptions of Conjuring creatures: They obey your commands unless a clause specifically allows them not to. In the case of Gate, it uses Planar Ally's explicit clauses: Obviously Suicidal, and Payment requirements.
Please stop referencing Planar Binding as if it means something to this discussion when nothing in the Legato text mentions Planar Binding in any way.
Planar Binding is relevant, because that is where the Opposed check was sourced, as I've shown. I have also used Planar Binding as reference to support my position on the Called creature being Magically Bound by the agreement, as I have now used Gate for the same purpose.
Mpl, I appreciate that you have a position, but I would need more than your assertions to argue from your position. Your position needs support from the printed material, I would find it useful to discuss your sources. You may even be right :) and that is ok too. But please support your position with RAW.
It is not explicitly clear that it replaces anything. Nothing in the description says so--it requires something additional.Legato Piece says "Unlike with planar ally." That should be explicitly clear.
"Unlike with planar ally" you have to take this extra step and make a Charisma check.
It does not say, "Unlike with Planar Ally, you make a Charisma check instead of paying" or "Unlike with Planar Ally, Legato etc. does not require money, but you must succeed on a Charisma check" or anything else of the sort.
It says, "Unlike with planar ally, the creature is not necessarily associated with your deity, and has an initial attitude of “indifferent” toward you. Because it is intrigued by your performance, it remains for up to 1 minute to hear the service you are requesting and the payment you are offering. If you succeed at an opposed Charisma check against the creature (with a +0 to +6 bonus on your roll based on the nature of the service and the offered reward), it agrees to perform the service."
Nothing in there overrides anything in Planar Ally, therefore, I believe it is in addition to the normal requirements.
To me, your position looks like this:
Let's pretend you normally live in Delaware (or another state with no sales tax). You are visiting New Jersey (or some other state with sales tax).
You go into a McDonalds and buy something off the $1 menu. You get out your $1 bill and get ready to pay, but the guy behind the counter says, "Unlike in Delaware, you have to pay sales tax in New Jersey."
"Sweet!" you say, "now I only have to pay $.07."
The man is confused.
"Well," you explain, "you said unlike in Delaware. In Delaware, I have to pay for the burger, so here, where it is unlike Delaware, I only have to do the specific thing you said and nothing more."
I apologize, I can't wrap my head around your position.
My position is reductio ad absurdum.
To expand, you initially claimed that the line "Creatures you conjure usually- but not always- obey your commands" applied to Planar Ally.
I then suggested that if it applied to Planar Ally, it should also apply to teleport spells, because both were conjurations. Hell, it should even apply when you Cure Light Wounds them, since Healing is conjuration. The point was that we both know it's totally absurd to apply that line to teleports (or healing), meaning there is obviously some other rubrik to determine when that line applies.
Common Sense suggests that "conjuring" is when you actually create the creature--i.e. when you summon or create it. You know that and I know that. Further, Planar Ally is pretty explicit in what it does--there's no ambiguity. The creature does what it agreed to and nothing more. You are not commanding it, you are making a deal.
Planar Ally, and therefore Legato etc. (crap that's a long name), gives you no special control over the called creature beyond it completing a task it agrees upon.
With the spell, it agrees because you and it serve the same deity. With Legato, they do it because you convince it to via a Charisma check. They are bound to that task, but nothing else.
This is an interesting dilemma as far as Teleporting is concerned.
No, there is absolutely no interesting dilemma here. Everyone knows that you don't get to command people you teleport. There is no clarification needed. Don't be silly.
However, there is precedent for my position on Calling and the General Rule. Lets look at Gate, which is a Conjuration (Creation or Calling) spell.
That quote in Gate doesn't support you're assertion at all. In fact, it counters it. If you were correct, the spell would not need to talk about control at all, because it would be automatically assumed. Gate has to talk about the control conditions because Calling spells do not give you auto-controlled creatures anymore than Healing or Teleporting does.
What kind of control, and to what extent? It does not explicitly identify the extent of the control, and so we must default to the General Rule of Conjured Creatures. As a result, we know that this creature will Obey our Commands for the duration of the Calling (1 round/lvl).
No, that's ridiculous. Control is obvious. You don't need the general rule to tell you it obeys your commands. That is what having control over a creature means.
Planar Binding is relevant, because that is where the Opposed check was sourced, as I've shown.
Having the same wording does not mean that one power has anything to do with the other.
Admonishing Ray and Scorching Ray both contain the line "You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit..." so obviously Admonishing Ray is a fire spell, right? Because Scorching Ray is?
See, this is reductio ad absurdum again. It is absurd to assume two abilities with some wording in common do the same thing. You cannot use one to answer questions about the other. They are different. If Legato etc. were meant to function like Planar Binding, it would have said as much.
Mpl, I appreciate that you have a position, but I would need more than your assertions to argue from your position. Your position needs support from the printed material, I would find it useful to discuss your sources. You may even be right :) and that is ok too. But please support your position with RAW.
...really? I am using RAW and quoting material--the only material we have that is relevant.
You are bringing in extra stuff (other spells no mentioned). This is a problem and it is distorting your view of the facts.
I.e. the facts are, this ability duplicates Planar Ally (not any other spell). It does not make it free, it makes it harder to use, because the creature is not automatically willing to help you.
It is not explicitly clear that it replaces anything. Nothing in the description says so--it requires something additional.Legato Piece says "Unlike with planar ally." That should be explicitly clear.
You change the things it says--not other stuff.I agree, and so when Legato Piece says "Unlike with planar ally" it means In Replacement Of, not In Addition To. And it goes on to say
Unlike means 'different from', not 'in replacement of' or 'in addintion to'.
If you succeed at an opposed Charisma check against the creature... it agrees to perform the service.The text in the parenthesis is taken directly from Planar Binding:
The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward.The Opposed Charisma check from Planar Binding replaces the Payment requirement of Planar Ally. The parenthetical statement comes from Planar Binding and is specifically a reward as incentive.
So? They used a similar rule. Does not mean they are using any other part from planar binding. If they wanted it to be like planar binding they would have said "Like planar binding you..."
Hey, the text for spells in the bard class has many sentences that are exct the same on the texts for wiard spelss and cleric spells and in fact most spellcasting classes. Does that mean my bard can learn spells from any list?No, that line ("Creatures you conjure usually- but not always- obey your commands.") is part of the general conjuration rules, not part of the Called subsection.I apologize, I can't wrap my head around your position. Conjuration is a type of Magic. The General section on Conjuration has rules which govern all types of Conjurations. Unless a sub-type, or a specific spell-effect contains explicit clauses which call for exceptions, all Conjurations are governed by the General rule. There are five sub-types:
1. Calling
2. Creation
3. Healing
4. Summoning
6. TeleportationThey are all conjurations, and so are always written in the following format within a magical effect's description:
School conjuration (calling) [see text]; Level cleric 4Not all Conjurations are Calling, but all Callings are Conjuration.
This is an interesting dilemma as far as Teleporting is concerned. One that probably warrants its own thread, some research, and maybe even an FAQ. Even so, Calling is Not Teleportation, they are different effect types.Therefore, if you think a Called creature is "conjured" and thus the line about obeying your commands applies, then it should apply equally to people you teleport, which is also a conjuring effect.
In fact, calling is just teleporting except the target gets the ability to go back again.
It falls on the not always clause.
Here: "Creatures you conjure usually- but not always- obey your commands."However, there is precedent for my position on Calling and the General Rule. Lets look at Gate, which is a Conjuration (Creation or Calling) spell. Read Gate's spell description Here, but note this following passage:
If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level. A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.
What kind of control, and to what extent? It does not explicitly identify the extent of the control, and so we must default to the General Rule of Conjured Creatures. As a result, we know that this creature will Obey our Commands for the duration of the Calling (1 round/lvl). As for the "usually" and "not always" clauses of the General Rule, the next paragraph explains that it is controlled unless the following explicit clause applies:
Freed from what? Your command. And so the Gate spell follows the fundamental assumptions of Conjuring creatures: They obey your commands unless a clause specifically allows them not to. In the case of Gate, it uses Planar Ally's explicit clauses: Obviously Suicidal, and Payment requirements.
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications. Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.
It's the other way around. You get command of the creatture because the spell specifically says so. Legato Piece doesn't say it gives you command, so it doesn't.
Planar Binding is relevant, because that is where the Opposed check was sourced, as I've shown. I have also used Planar Binding as reference to support my position on the Called creature being Magically Bound by the agreement, as I have now used Gate for the same purpose.
Please stop referencing Planar Binding as if it means something to this discussion when nothing in the Legato text mentions Planar Binding in any way.
Just because they used the same sentence does not, in any way, shape or form, means it has any relevance at all to Legato Piece.
Both spells you mention say you get command, but neither planar ally nor legato piece say that, s they do not give command.
"Unlike with planar ally" you have to take this extra step and make a Charisma check.
Unfortunately that would require a specific, and unsupported reading of the word "Unlike," which in the English language is defined as
un·like
/ˌənˈlīk/
Preposition
Different from; not similar to.
Adjective
Dissimilar or different from each other.
I think anyone else reading this thread will see your position as stubborn bickering. I have seen you do this in other posts, where you assert a position without support, and then aggressively defend it in the face of direct quotes from printed material. I have asked you repeatedly to support your positions with RAW, instead you assert that this is your "belief." Please either support your position by providing like-examples, or simply stop derailing this thread.
You also missed a very specific line, you quoted everything except the last sentence, which I will bold here:
"Otherwise" does not mean In Addition To, it means Different Than.
Common Sense suggests that "conjuring" is when you actually create the creature--i.e. when you summon or create it. You know that and I know that. Further, Planar Ally is pretty explicit in what it does--there's no ambiguity. The creature does what it agreed to and nothing more. You are not commanding it, you are making a deal.
I admire a person who goes with their gut, but that holds no weight against what the printed material says. Unfortunately, Summoning is not the act of "creating" a creature. The relevant text taken from the Summoning Sub-type passage:
Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from.
Are you then claiming that Summoned creatures are not magically bound by the Conjuration General Rule to obey the caster? This is now the third time in this one thread where you've simply made a directly disprovable assertion. I can only recommend that you look for rules and quote them along side your statements, as you'll run into the trouble of being completely wrong, and sadly it will it look as if you're simply making stuff up.
The creature does what it agreed to and nothing more. You are not commanding it, you are making a deal.
It is magically bound to complete the service to which it has agreed. It Cannot choose Not to complete the task, and passages within Planar Binding, Gate, and Planar Ally indicate directly that once the creature has agreed, it must "Break Free" of some undefined force. You've been very careful to side step these passages. What are they breaking free of? Answer: They are Magically Bound to Obey their Conjurer, as defined by the Conjuration General rule.
With Legato, they do it because you convince it to via a Charisma check. They are bound to that task, but nothing else.
If I simply take this line, and disregard the entirety of your unsupportable position, I agree. In this one line, you sum up my position perfectly, they do it because the Charisma check magically binds them, not because they are paid. Offering them payment/reward grants a bonus to your Charisma check, but payment is not a requirement because the clause "Unlike Planar Ally" replaces, and not adds to the rules under Planar Ally. The parenthetical statement in Legato is sourced from Planar Binding, which is where we must go to gain context of Developer Intent.
I then suggested that if it applied to Planar Ally, it should also apply to teleport spells, because both were conjurations.
A couple of things going on here. First, they are required to do everything that the spell says they will do. You made a similar statement earlier, but have since contradicted yourself claiming that there's room for GM fiat. There is not. If a spell says that it will stay for up to 1 minute to listen, then the Called creature is magically required to do so. And Once they Agree, they are bound by the Conjuration General rule, which is a magical binding. Hence, my claim that they are magically bound stands firmly within RAW and fundamental game logic.
That quote in Gate doesn't support you're assertion at all. In fact, it counters it. If you were correct, the spell would not need to talk about control at all, because it would be automatically assumed.
I'm baffled, its almost as if you're reading things to suit your untenable positions ;) Firstly, thank you for finally acknowledging that other Calling spells are valid a printed sources to support a rules claim. Lets go over Gate.
The relevant passages are:
you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling.
This is the permissive language that one expects within an ability's description. In spite of what they would prefer, Calling an outsider binds it to the terms as defined in the specific used to Call them. It has no real choice, as it is magically bound by the Conjuration General rule. Even here, you have control over them, and they are bound to obey your command to appear before you.
Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate
This is an exception to the Conjuration General rule.
In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level.
This sentence spells out an exception to the Conjuration General rule. Please take a moment, read it, understand it. If you summon multiple creatures, you cannot control them-Exception. If you summon a single creature, but its HD exceed your Caster Level, you cannot control it-Exception.
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service.
Again, you have total control over it, it will obey you as defined by the Conjuration General rule for the duration of the Gate spell. If you would like it to serve longer, this line introduces an Exception. It grants the Called creature a way to refuse said service. Without this line, we would assume that the creature will obey our commands.
The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.
These two lines provide the creature a way to refuse service. Without them, we would assume that the Called creature would Obey us in the absence of specific rewards.
Fundamental Game Logic is What We Would Assume, In the Absence of Explicit Clauses which Call Out Exceptions.
After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.
What is it freed from? The magic of the Conjuration General rule forcing it to obey my command. In this case, "my command" is defined by the terms of service agreed upon.
Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.
This is backlash built into the spell, so that the Conjurer is now subject to the terms of the magical effect. The Conjurer cannot simply decide he doesn't want to honor the fact that his failure to comply will lead to demonic servitude or death. This is magically bound to happen, because its what the spell explicitly says will happen.
Having the same wording does not mean that one power has anything to do with the other.
Admonishing Ray and Scorching Ray both contain the line "You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit..." so obviously Admonishing Ray is a fire spell, right? Because Scorching Ray is?
They are only similar in that they are Spells, and use Ray effects, which are governed by the same General rule that governs Ranged Touch spells. See Here. We assume that the general rule applies, even though its not explicitly stated in each individual spell. It doesn't have to be, because the General rule Always applies unless explicit clauses within individual abilities say otherwise. The same is true for the Conjuration General rules.
See, this is reductio ad absurdum again. It is absurd to assume two abilities with some wording in common do the same thing.
Reductio ad absurdum would require me to claim that the permissions within Gate are the exact same permissions within Planar Ally and/or Planar Binding. I am specifically stating the fact that General Rules govern in all applicable cases, unless explicit clauses found within individual abilities say otherwise.
The Logic that I am presenting:
Major Premise: The General Rule Governs all applicably related rules.
Minor Premise: Explicit Clauses within Individual abilities must call out exceptions to the general rule.
Conclusion: All rules are Governed by the General rule, unless explicit clauses within individual abilities call out exceptions.
This logic chain is Always true in Pathfinder. You will not find an example which deviates from the above statement within the entirety of the Pathfinder rule set.
Read about Logic and Legal Reasoning, to get a better understanding of why your position is fundamentally untenable. Hint: Not all mammals can swim ;)
...really? I am using RAW and quoting material--the only material we have that is relevant.
You have cherry picked your quotes, and none of them support your direct assertions. In fact, they contradict your assertions (see the bit on Summoning above).
You are bringing in extra stuff (other spells no mentioned). This is a problem and it is distorting your view of the facts.
I have referenced Planar Binding because that is the direct source of the Opposed Charisma check. I have also, as a result of a sub-argument cited Gate and Planar binding to give credence to the fact that Calling is a form of Conjuration, and to also support the Fundamental Game Logic behind Calling and Conjuring. They are relevant to the specific points being debated.
I.e. the facts are, this ability duplicates Planar Ally (not any other spell). It does not make it free, it makes it harder to use, because the creature is not automatically willing to help you.
I'm very sorry boss, but you set a very low bar for fact. In fact you have mistaken "Belief" and "Common Sense" as game fact. I have demonstrated in both cases that you're simply, flat out, incorrect. This doesn't mean that you can't be correct, it just means that you have not been. As to this specific assertion, the mountain of printed material which I have provided to support my position speaks for itself ;)
Hey bud :) Thank you for joining the discussion.
Just because they used the same sentence does not, in any way, shape or form, means it has any relevance at all to Legato Piece.
Both spells you mention say you get command, but neither planar ally nor legato piece say that, s they do not give command.
You have come very late to this discussion, and perhaps you do not understand the context of this statement.
The argument is whether or not a Called Creature is magically bound tp abide the terms of service. I have not claimed that Planar Ally nor Legato Piece gives a conjurer carte-blanche command over it. I was explaining that what ever is in the specifically negotiated language is magically binding. You and I agree :)
It falls on the not always clause.
Here: "Creatures you conjure usually- but not always- obey your commands."
I agree. The dilemma is that I couldn't find specific language within the printed material to support what I know to be true. It's there somewhere ;) If not, then we have a logical inconsistency in spite of what we all know to be correct.
Just because they used the same sentence does not, in any way, shape or form, means it has any relevance at all to Legato Piece.
Both spells you mention say you get command, but neither planar ally nor legato piece say that, s they do not give command.
Ah, this is from a nuanced argument. I have already addressed the command issue. As for the first bit, we need to look at the clause under discussion:
If you succeed at an opposed Charisma check against the creature (with a +0 to +6 bonus on your roll based on the nature of the service and the offered reward), it agrees to perform the service
Mpl was claiming that the parenthetical statement was taken from Planar Ally, and so it validates his assertion that one Must pay. I was showing him that it was in fact taken from Planar Binding, where its context is as an Incentive, and is not about required payment.
I appreciate that you've joined this conversation, but there is a mountain of technical disputes that one can easily trip over :) You and I agree on each of those statements.
And for ease of understanding, here is the context in which Obeyance and Binding are being discussed (from my end):
Planar Ally wrote:
At the end of its task, or when the duration bargained for expires, the creature returns to its home plane (after reporting back to you, if appropriate and possible).
And this one from Planar Binding, which assumes that the creature has been imprisoned and tortured, giving it every reason to kill you or simply return home in the absence of it being magically bound to complete the task:
Planar Binding wrote:
Once the requested service is completed, the creature need only to inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came. The creature might later seek revenge. If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete through its own actions, the spell remains in effect for a maximum of 1 day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free (with the same chance to resist as when it was trapped). Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions.
That would be a very courteous Glabrezu, especially since you wracked it with pain, and entrapped it until it caved in.
Both lines are explaining that it is magically bound to abide the terms of the service until said task is complete, or until enough time has passed that the magical binding has expired (1 day per caster level).
EDIT: Added Spoiler for context.
Ok, it is now my belief that you are either not reading what I am typing or not understanding it.
For example, you say:
Mpl was claiming that the parenthetical statement was taken from Planar Ally, and so it validates his assertion that one Must pay.
I claimed no such thing--not once.
Unlike is "different from." X+1 is different from X, just as X is different from Y. You are arguing the "unlike" must replace. I am arguing that the "unlike" only replaces if it says it replaces--and Legato does not say anything is replaced.
You are extremely aggravating to debate with because you either fail to understand my position or pretend you do not, and argue points that are irrelevant to what I'm saying. Then you make snarky asides asserting I am disappointing or don't understand, when it is only your lack of understanding leading to you believing such things.
You also say I cannot use judgment (and what is obvious) in adjucating RAW, then use quotes like:
The dilemma is that I couldn't find specific language within the printed material to support what I know to be true. It's there somewhere ;) If not, then we have a logical inconsistency in spite of what we all know to be correct.
Are you kidding me? The reason you can't find the language you want is because you are wrong.
And I have quoted text without cherry picking. Here, just for the sake of repetition, I will quote everything that is relevant:
This fast-paced tune harmonizes with the magical frequencies of another plane, allowing you to draw an extraplanar creature to you and bargain for its service. When you complete this performance, you call one or more outsiders as if using planar ally. Unlike with planar ally, the creature is not necessarily associated with your deity, and has an initial attitude of “indifferent” toward you. Because it is intrigued by your performance, it remains for up to 1 minute to hear the service you are requesting and the payment you are offering. If you succeed at an opposed Charisma check against the creature (with a +0 to +6 bonus on your roll based on the nature of the service and the offered reward), it agrees to perform the service. This ability otherwise works like planar ally.
Planar Ally:
By casting this spell, you request your deity to send you an outsider (of 6 HD or less) of the deity's choice. If you serve no particular deity, the spell is a general plea answered by a creature sharing your philosophical alignment. If you know an individual creature's name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell (though you might get a different creature anyway).
You may ask the creature to perform one task in exchange for a payment from you. Tasks might range from the simple to the complex. You must be able to communicate with the creature called in order to bargain for its services.
The creature called requires a payment for its services. This payment can take a variety of forms, from donating gold or magic items to an allied temple, to a gift given directly to the creature, to some other action on your part that matches the creature's alignment and goals. Regardless, this payment must be made before the creature agrees to perform any services. The bargaining takes at least 1 round, so any actions by the creature begin in the round after it arrives.
A task taking up to 1 minute per caster level requires a payment of 100 gp per HD of the creature called. For a task taking up to 1 hour per caster level, the creature requires a payment of 500 gp per HD. A long-term task, one requiring up to 1 day per caster level, requires a payment of 1,000 gp per HD.
A nonhazardous task requires only half the indicated payment, while an especially hazardous task might require a greater gift. Few if any creatures will accept a task that seems suicidal (remember, a called creature actually dies when it is killed, unlike a summoned creature). However, if the task is strongly aligned with the creature's ethos, it may halve or even waive the payment.
At the end of its task, or when the duration bargained for expires, the creature returns to its home plane (after reporting back to you, if appropriate and possible).
Conjuration:
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually- but not always- obey your commands.
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
The creature or object must appear within the spell's range, but it does not have to remain within the range.
Your positions, as I understand them are:
1) The Charisma check in Legato replaces the payment that is required in Planar Ally
2) During the minute in which Legato says the outsider is hearing your service and the payment you are offering, your believe you can do things other than explaining your service and offering payment.
3) Once the outsider agrees to your service, you can command it to do whatever you like until it is done with your service, as long as you don't ask it to do something suicidal.
For your position #1, you think that, because they agree if you successfully make that Charisma check you do not have to pay. Planar Ally states:
"Regardless, this payment must be made before the creature agrees to perform any services."
Nothing in Legato removes, replaces, contradicts, or alters this line. Before they agree (with Planar Ally, they automatically agree, while Legato requires you to convince them to agree), they must be paid.
There is no textual support for removing that line (or any of the paragraphs detailing payment in Planar Ally), so why are you insisting you do not need to pay?
For your point #2, again, you are the one that lacks textual support. I am arguing that the text does exactly what it says it does (again, just as I am arguing in #1), so that minute of time is earmarked for something specific. You cannot do other things during that minute because that minute is part of the ability's effect.
For point #3, you are predicating everything on a single line ("Creatures you conjure usually- but not always- obey your commands") being a general rule. However, no general rule is listed. "Usually" is not a rules statement--it means often but not always. You cannot say something is usually X, and thus assume it is always X unless explicitly told otherwise. The rules do what they say they do--if a spell does not say you control the creature, you do not control them.
Planar Ally (and by extension, Legato) cause a creature to complete a specific task and that is all. You cannot command them completing that task. I am not and have never argued they can ditch on the task or anything, but they are not required to listen to you beyond what was outlined in your agreement.
I tried to make it a little silly and fun by pointing out that anything you argue about a "conjured creature" being under your control automatically would apply to healing and teleportation subschools. However, you are so stubborn, you actually argued that, yes, you do get to command people you teleport, and that is obviously an error so it should be FAQed. That seems disingenuous at best. You know it is absurd to apply the conjured creatures must obey you line to, say, Cure Light Wounds, but yet you still believe it must apply to Planar Ally, even though both spells have equal claim to the line, as both are conjurations.
You are being weaselly by claiming I am not using textual references, but that is because my claim is that no textual references exist for your points, and thus the default assumption is that the rules do what they say and no more.
My references are:
1) The Legato itself not stating explicitly (or implicitly) that the payment is unnecessary, therefore it is still necessary. I cannot quote an absence of something.
2) The Legato specifically states what goes on during the minute it gives you. I quoted that line as it is the only line relevant to the point. What more do you want?
3) Again, an absence of text in Legato or Planar Ally claiming you can make them do anything beyond the task you negotiated.
Hopefully this is more clear, now.
I think anyone else reading this thread will see your position as stubborn bickering. I have seen you do this in other posts, where you assert a position without support, and then aggressively defend it in the face of direct quotes from printed material. I have asked you repeatedly to support your positions with RAW, instead you assert that this is your "belief." Please either support your position by providing like-examples, or simply stop derailing this thread.
As someone who has nothing invested in this argument (never used masterpieces, don't really play bards a lot, don't particularly care, and I don't know either of you) I wanted to comment on this part especially.
Reading this thread has given me the position that you are most definitely in the wrong, and the personal attack on MPL here just adds to that. You have been given evidence to the contrary of what you believe, you are lifting things from irrelevant sources that do not actually back up your claim and even admitted at one point that you cannot find any written evidence to back up part of your claim, yet still insist you are right in that regard.
MPL has gone out of their way to provide evidence to the contrary and has not been lifting arguments from irrelevant sources to do so. I think it is fairly obvious that MPL has it right here.
Mpl :) I honestly don't think you're trolling. Really I don't. But you have made completely inaccurate statements several times now:
1. Can't use Diplomacy during the Negotiation. "being indifferent does not suddenly open Diplomacy to Helpful as an option." When it says
initial attitude is Indifferent.2. Summoning is "creating" a creature. When Summoning itself says that it
instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from
3. "Further, the idea that "Calling" is "conjuring" a creature is silly to me." Event Though Calling is listed under the General section on Conjuration.
4. "I am considering calling to be closer to teleportation than summoning." With no explanation or support, and there is no precedence for this.
Take special note that I did not quote Planar Binding or Gate or any other spell because only Planar Ally is relevant because it is the only spell referenced by Legato.
You had claimed that the "agreement" wasn't magically binding. I used Gate and Planar Binding to prove that the General rule on Conjured Creatures says otherwise. Again, Mpl, of what are they "breaking free"? Answer: The Conjuration General rule which states that they will obey you, in this case, obeying me means they are magically bound to abide the agreement. Your position slipped on this one as well.
Nothing in Legato removes, replaces, contradicts, or alters this line.
Actually, there are two lines which clearly state that it Replaces the payment, it begins the list of exceptions with:
Unlike with planar ally
and ends that list with
This ability otherwise works like planar ally.
By your logic it is saying that "Unlike Planar Ally, make an Opposed Charisma Check in addition to Payment. This ability otherwise works like Planar Ally." That is just nonsense, and falls in line with all of the other false assertions you've made (see the list above).
I am not saying that you're incapable of making a solid argument, I'm saying that you're not making one here. Every time you make a falsifiable claim, you marginalize yourself. I'm not doing that to you.
so that minute of time is earmarked for something specific. You cannot do other things during that minute because that minute is part of the ability's effect.
and has an initial attitude of “indifferent” toward you. Because it is intrigued by your performance, it remains for up to 1 minute to hear the service you are requesting and the payment you are offering.
Negotiation is part of this. There is no way that it cannot be part of this. Diplomacy governs negotiation. "initial attitude" is a clear statement that the attitude can be adjusted. The Bard has 1 minute to Conclude and make his Charisma check. He can stare quietly at the Outsider for 54 seconds, and then speak for 6. By your interpretation he must speak for the entire 1 minute, but there's nothing to support this. If the Bard chooses to entertain the Outsider during that minute, or offer platitudes to improve its attitude, he has up to 1 minute to get all that done.
However, you are so stubborn, you actually argued that, yes, you do get to command people you teleport, and that is obviously an error so it should be FAQed.
I certainly did not, lul. I have not taken the time to find printed support for why Teleportation does not grant control, that is the only real dilemma here. Its in the book somewhere. It must be there, or else RAW is inconsistent. Its a simple omission if none can be found. But you then went on some pretty wild tangents, claiming all sorts of stuff about Summoning and Calling that was patently false. Now you're claiming that it was in jest.. how convenient.
Again, an absence of text in Legato or Planar Ally claiming you can make them do anything beyond the task you negotiated.
Just as with Planar Ally, I can assign an open ended task, an open ended task with specific terms, or a specific task with an open ended time frame (up to 1 day/caster level).
My assertion is not that the Bard has complete control over them from the start (though they are bound by Conjuration magic to appear, and to listen) but that once the creature "agrees" it is now magically bound to complete the terms of the service agreed upon.
Both Planar Ally and Planar Binding (which are analogues) limit the amount of control a conjurer can exert over the conjured creature as laid out explicitly in the text. These spells go to great length to explain how they each deviate from the Conjuration General rule. You are pulling at strings, misunderstanding why I am referencing analogous spells. Its to support the "magically binding" part of the "agreed upon" services. Do you honestly believe that a Glabrezu that has been imprisoned, tortured, and humiliated is happy to be of service? No, its not. Likewise, do you think that an Azata is excited to take 1000 gold to go forth and slaughter an enemy prince, only to find that every man, woman, and child comes to his defense? He'll have to cut his way through everyone who tries to battle him off until the task is complete. Because he is magically bound to do so by the Conjuration General rule.
This seems to be our sticking point:
Because it is intrigued by your performance, it remains for up to 1 minute to hear the service you are requesting and the payment you are offering. If you succeed at an opposed Charisma check against the creature (with a +0 to +6 bonus on your roll based on the nature of the service and the offered reward), it agrees to perform the service.
Here's what it says about Payment:
The creature called requires a payment for its services. This payment can take a variety of forms, from donating gold or magic items to an allied temple, to a gift given directly to the creature, to some other action on your part that matches the creature's alignment and goals. Regardless, this payment must be made before the creature agrees to perform any services.
Legato Piece says that if it likes my payment I get a bonus! Woo. Now, I choose not to pay it. According to Legato Piece, I get no bonus. Aww :( But then goes on to say that if I succeed at the opposed Charisma check, it agrees to perform the service.
Even with the payment clause intact, I can choose to simply make the opposed Charisma check. Occam's Razor: No payment is required. That's going off your logic.
I'm asserting that "Unlike Planar Ally," one need only make the Opposed Charisma check. Because that is exactly what Legato Piece says. Payment/Reward is only to sweeten the deal.
. As someone who has nothing invested in this argument
I see a lot of this sort of cheer leading on these forums. Mpl is wrong. I am showing why he is wrong. I have not brought in irrelevant sources to support my claims, I have brought in tangent sources to support tangent claims: specifically my assertion that the agreement is magically binding, and not simply a handshake. Which is the stance Mpl had taken, and was wrong about ;P
You haven't read through this thread as thoroughly as you ought to have.
My "tone" as you're calling it is just factual :) Mpl made the extraordinary claim that I was using Reductio ad absurdum, which wasn't even the correct application of that logical fallacy. Now That is pretty condescending. Its like the guy who calls everything "ironic" when it strikes him as funny.
I think I am about done now. I don't like abandoning debates and giving the wrong party last words because I fear others will come in and think they are correct, but at this point, I have made my point, others agree, that is going to have to be good enough.
I now know for a fact you absolutely do not understand the things I've said in this thread (and I hope it is due to simple error and not purposeful twisting), because you now claim I said you were using reductio ad absurdum, when I actually said I was using it.
Reductio ad absurdum is taking a point the other person makes (i.e. that planar ally forces them to obey you because of general text in the conjuration section) and bringing it to an absurd conclusion (i.e. that it should then apply equally to teleport and healing spells) to show that the first point can't possibly be correct because it would lead to silly ends.
If you think I accused you of doing that, you were never reading what I typed from the beginning.
And you evidently never understood my debate tone, either, which is playful and full of hyperbole and reductio ad absurdum, because I always debate with a smile. You have frustrated me with this nonsense such that I am no longer smiling, so I am no longer debating with you.
And you evidently never understood my debate tone, either, which is playful and full of hyperbole and reductio ad absurdum, because I always debate with a smile.
If I did misunderstand you, and I apologize. But reading it again, you're addressing it at me. Even so, we have a good dialogue going in another thread.
Others have agreed with my take as well, but the finer points of this argument are hardly settled. This is a debate, it got a little edgy. /happens. As Ross the Mod is always saying, Flag it and Move on.
Sorry Paul, but I was actually agreeing with mpl. I've read all the posts and all the relevant lines and as far as I can tell your take on the masterpiece is wrong in every level. That is what I was trying to say.
Sorry Paul, but I was actually agreeing with mpl. I've read all the posts and all the relevant lines and as far as I can tell your take on the masterpiece is wrong in every level. That is what I was trying to say.
So one of the key points I've made is that the negotiation is magically binding. You disagree with that?
Sorry Paul, but I was actually agreeing with mpl. I've read all the posts and all the relevant lines and as far as I can tell your take on the masterpiece is wrong in every level. That is what I was trying to say.So one of the key points I've made is that the negotiation is magically binding. You disagree with that?
Yes. I disagree with that. It's just a way to call a guy and ask if he wants to do some contract work. It's better done on Lawful outsiders, who will uphold their contracts to the letter. Chaotic outsiders will only help you if it's something they would like to do anyway. Evil outsiders have a 50% chance of backstabbing you at the end of the contract just because.
As far as I see what happens is you sing so well an outsider shows up and says:Outsider: "Hey, sup. Pretty cool song, man"
Bard: "Thanks bro. Hey listen, I need someone to help me out with a thing. You in?" Describe what you want, something aligned with the creture is better, like protecting people for an angel or destroying something for a demon.
Outsider: "Yeah dude, I'm into that stuff, I can dig it. But I'm no fool to go around working for free. You got the cash to pay for the work?"
Bard: "Sure nuff man. I'll even throw in some quality smoking medicinal herbs."
Ousider: "Oh, you got the good stuff. Deal bro. I'll get it done, like, right now."
I would allow a Diplomacy check in that one minute, since it's the exact time for it.
Edit: I think the bard and the outsider are from the seventies. My mind is weird...
Sorry Paul, but I was actually agreeing with mpl. I've read all the posts and all the relevant lines and as far as I can tell your take on the masterpiece is wrong in every level. That is what I was trying to say.So one of the key points I've made is that the negotiation is magically binding. You disagree with that?Yes. I disagree with that. It's just a way to call a guy and ask if he wants to do some contract work. It's better done on Lawful outsiders, who will uphold their contracts to the letter. Chaotic outsiders will only help you if it's something they would like to do anyway. Evil outsiders have a 50% chance of backstabbing you at the end of the contract just because.
As far as I see what happens is you sing so well an outsider shows up and says:
Outsider: "Hey, sup. Pretty cool song, man"
Bard: "Thanks bro. Hey listen, I need someone to help me out with a thing. You in?" Describe what you want, something aligned with the creture is better, like protecting people for an angel or destroying something for a demon.
Outsider: "Yeah dude, I'm into that stuff, I can dig it. But I'm no fool to go around working for free. You got the cash to pay for the work?"
Bard: "Sure nuff man. I'll even throw in some quality smoking medicinal herbs."
Ousider: "Oh, you got the good stuff. Deal bro. I'll get it done, like, right now."I would allow a Diplomacy check in that one minute, since it's the exact time for it.
Edit: I think the bard and the outsider are from the seventies. My mind is weird...
Cool. I really appreciate you having this discussion with me :) I've already made my case as to why it is magically binding, and so I'll just leave your contribution to the reading as the last word :)
Thanks again bud.
Cool. I stumbled upon the exact section governing the Calling and Binding of Outsiders, found Here.
A Called Outsider is not under the callers control, but certain spells Do regulate its behavior (Such as Legato making them Indifferent, and sticking around for 1 minute), but once it agrees to perform a service it is then Magically Bound to complete that service. Agreeance is not simply a handshake. Notice the many references within each Calling spell which read "Breaking Free" or "until the duration bargained for expires," its referring to the Outsider's inability to simply walk away from the agreement. Why? Because it is magically bound, as is explained in the link above. The 'challenge' or trick to Binding an outsider is to convince it (with Rod or Sugarcane) to agree to be bound.
Planar Ally, Planar Binding, and Gate are all analogues, and are governed under this General Section on Binding Outsiders, and the Conjuration General rule.
Now, the only sticking point is Payment. Is it required, or does the Opposed Charisma check replace it, making payment an incentive instead?
Legato Piece only requires an Opposed Charisma check, which says explicitly if you win that check, the Outsider will agree to the task. Beef up with bonuses to your Charisma check, and you've got this in your bag ;)
I am willing to give this one more shot.
A Called Outsider is not under the callers control, but certain spells Do regulate its behavior (Such as Legato making them Indifferent, and sticking around for 1 minute), but once it agrees to perform a service it is then Magically Bound to complete that service.
Yes, for what its worth, I worded it poorly in my very first post in this thread, but I have always agreed with that--what I disagreed with is the idea that you have any control over them beyond them completing the service.
Example: you get Bob the outsider to agree to help you fight the Lich King. He then must help you fight the Lich King. While you are on your way to the Lich King, you see a chest of treasure up out of reach, and Bob can fly. You can't force Bob to go get that treasure--he can do it on his own if he wants, but you can't force him because you have no control and he is not forced to obey you. He is only forced to complete the task (i.e. fight the Lich King).
Legato Piece only requires an Opposed Charisma check, which says explicitly if you win that check, the Outsider will agree to the task.
Do you believe that, in Planar Ally, the outsider agrees to the deal because of the payment? I think that's the issue--you believe the payment to be what convinces them.
It makes sense, from that perspective, that since Legato states that they agree with a Charisma check, the payment would not be needed, because you convince them with a check, not money.
I see no evidence, however, that the money required is convincing them to agree to the deal. Planar Ally states that "this payment must be made before the creature agrees to perform any services." Paying them does not cause them to agree, it is simply referencing a required chronological order of events.
Unlike with planar ally, the creature is not necessarily associated with your deity, and has an initial attitude of “indifferent” toward you. Because it is intrigued by your performance, it remains for up to 1 minute to hear the service you are requesting and the payment you are offering. If you succeed at an opposed Charisma check against the creature (with a +0 to +6 bonus on your roll based on the nature of the service and the offered reward), it agrees to perform the service.
I think "Unlike with planar ally," applies only to the sentence it prefaces. I don't think it blankets the entire paragraph. It only applies to the part of planar ally that discusses what sort of outsiders will answer. It doesn't re-write the rest of the spell.
Saying that you don't have to pay because it doesn't say you still have to would be like saying you cannot call specific outsiders by name, because it doesn't say you still can.