Goblin Squad Member
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The GW blogs say:
"Monks—masters of ki power. These warrior-artists search out methods of battle beyond swords and shields, finding weapons within themselves just as capable of crippling or killing as any blade."
Since PFO is not a one-to-one mapping of Pathfinder PnP, I am unclear about the specifics of ki power.
I would like ki to be able to do the following:
- Enhance Combat Maneuvers add to the effectiveness of bull rush, sunder, trip, and disarm, possibly being able to execute these maneuvers at a distance, especially trip
- Temporary Physical Enhancement being able to do short term physical enhancement effects similar to bull's strength and cat's grace
- Boost Weapon Effects adding bull rush, trip, sunder, and disarm to weapons used, or enhancing properties for weapons with those descriptors
- Add Damage to Combat Maneuvers add falling damage to ki throw (massive body slam)
What would you like to see?
Kaio Ken!
This. +1
There are some great 3PP that have covered several of the areas the OP mentions. I'll drop back in to toss up some links, but I've posted reviews of at least two products that you might fight of interest. Great thread :-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Enhanced Speed, Jumping, and Slow Fall. A Monk should be the fastest character there is. They should be parkour masters that can only be caught by magic.
I want to see the ability to inflict status attacks - Blinding, Stunning, Nausea, and so forth.
I'd also really like them to have the coolest looking attacks of any class. I'm thinking of the SWG Pre-CU Teras Kasi animations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Speaking of holds, I'd love to have grappling in the game. It's a great way to shut down spellcasters without still spell or big weapon hitters, but most MMOs run screaming into the night at the thought of the necessary collision detecting, animations, and other technical requirements needed to implement it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd also really like them to have the coolest looking attacks of any class. I'm thinking of the SWG Pre-CU Teras Kasi animations.
That would be exceptional. I think that the TK animations from SWG pre-CU were the best that has ever been done in an MMO for an unarmed fighter.
As far as ki abilities are concerned, I think that translating the monk's abilities as closely as possible to begin with is fine but maybe adding the ki power expansions from the Ultimate Magic book. Being able to emulate various spells merely by expending your ki in exchange for losing the ability to use an ability from the base monk class. That would be very nice as well.
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Bladed Dash and Greater Bladed Dash.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like monks to be European pseudo-medieval rather than Oriental, but I know I'm going to have things thrown at me if I suggested that.
Oriental monks powers ought to include the ability to levitate at higher levels. Given they are already knocking at the door of Hong Kong martial arts movies, inspiration could be drawn from those sources.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am hoping that GW eventually adds in Monks, with at least 90% of their TT functionality (leaving out maybe the few feats or maneuvers that won't translate).
The most used reason why this may not be done is that GW is concerned about getting the animations right. They are entitled to their concern and I respect that concern. However, I certainly am less concerned with animations than I am with functionality.
It matters little to me if all open hand attacks look exactly the same, as long as they have the different desired effects, I can wait fir the animations to catch up or never happen, down the road.
So my short answer to the OP is, as many as possible and within the translatable spectrum of what is possible.
I am glad that this has been aired. I've said quite a bit about it in other posts on these boards, so this may... linger for a while. :)
Short version goes like this. Everything from tabletop, ESPECIALLY the Qinggong monk and Style feats.
Longer version... to me, a monk is supposed to be an unarmed martial artist. Certainly, they can fight with weapons and at lower levels this is functionally important. Except for theme, however, a higher level monk should always fight unarmed. Therefore, a system that allows for a monk to fight so that he APPEARS to fight unarmed is important. Call a monk's unarmed weapon whatever you wish - I understand that for balance reasons it's important that they use one.
A monk also should be blindingly fast. Monks at high levels move from three to four times faster than most of his adventuring commpanions, can leap amazing distances with minimal effort and are easily able to avoid area effect attacks. Also, Abundant Step is very important to them as well! Their specialized melee attacks(Stunning Fist, Elemental Fist, and Punishing Kick) are all important feats that give a monk abilities to do things that simultaneously set them apart from other melee fighters AND make them the threat they are to casters, most especially.
Their ability to ignore poison and diseases are also iconic to the class. These are abilities that many players and GM's discount, but I can recount any number of times when they have saved my character's lives AND the party's bacon, as well. While on the subject, Diamond Soul, the monk's lvl 13 innate Spell Resistance HAS to be in PFO. At higher levels, a monk's job is generally to run(or Abundant Step!) as fast as they can to the enemy's spell casters(who by 13th or 14th level are the biggest threat to the group, by far) and neutralize them. Without Spell Resistance, their high saves and Evasion/Imp. Evasion, they simply cannot do these things effectively.
From Ultimate Magic, the Qinggong monk is what allows most people who have fantasized about their monks throwing fireballs, running on walls and bouncing swords off their chests to finally fulfill them. I'm not crazy about the feats that they give you access to, but the spell like abilities that it gives you are really neat. Sure, you can just level up as a caster to imitate this, but the point is to do it with ki and based off of the other cool things you can already do.
Finally, Style Feats are the most amazing thing that has been done for the monk since... ever. They are powerful, game changing, and really REALLY cool!
I realize that this is a lot of stuff to ask for, and that it may have to come in waves, but I really won't be happy unless my monk can look like he's running around in street clothes, unarmed, and kicking the snotola out of bad guys just like that. I'd love to see some kind of representation of most of the alternate advancement paths available, as well, but that's just gravy. The most important stuff to me is to get the core class monk right, add in the stuff from the Qingong monk, and the style feats. Oh yeah, make sure Stunning Fist, Elemental Fist and Punishing Kick are in there and done properly.
Get those things in there and I will be ecstatically happy. Everything else will be gravy. I know it's asking a lot. With these grounds covered though, you'll have a very interesting class with a lot of depth.
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I would like the monk to be like characters in Baki the grappler, blade of immortal, or Stormrider (Fung Wan?)... =P
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmm some monk abilities to me seem like they are really awesome. In the Pathfinder game, i guess this is paid for by the monk not being able to wear armor, not use spells and not use any good missile weapons?
Should monk abilities be seriously gimped in case they are used while wearing armor in PFO then?
I'm asking since you will be able to sort of pick the raisins out of any classes you wish in the online game, do you think that some monk abilities will end up OP if they can be used by anyone?
I'm not saying they will be, I am asking since I never played Pathfinder.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Should monk abilities be seriously gimped in case they are used while wearing armor in PFO then?
I believe they should be gimped in that case, and that they will be, and that this will be accomplished via the keyword system and the keyword choices the character will be forced to make.
For example, it's easy to imagine that all of the monk's attacks and defenses might benefit from the "ki" keyword, and that it's impossible to put that keyword on armor that's not appropriate for a monk.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Should monk abilities be seriously gimped in case they are used while wearing armor in PFO then?I believe they should be gimped in that case, and that they will be, and that this will be accomplished via the keyword system and the keyword choices the character will be forced to make.
For example, it's easy to imagine that all of the monk's attacks and defenses might benefit from the "ki" keyword, and that it's impossible to put that keyword on armor that's not appropriate for a monk.
Ah yeah that's clever. With keywords in the mix you won't be able to take the best from every class and combine it all into something awesome. Thanks for pointing that out.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think that keying the monk defense bonuses to keywords available only on monk-appropriate armor, and the monk offense abilities to keywords available only on monk-appropriate weapons, is adequate.
A monk/fighter should be able to do some really interesting things with a fighting staff, and I see a niche for a fighter/monk/wizard filling an adaptable role using a very expensive staff.
I think that the keyword system is GW's answer to a LOT of the problems with such an open system. Full Plate wearers tossing around arcane spells and using sneak attack? Can't do it, because of keywords. Monk's getting benefit of all their crazy defenses and wearing heavy armor? Or using ki powered attacks while using a scythe? Can't happen, because of keywords.
GW has the ability to keep alot of really abusive things out of the game. Not only thatm but they easily have the knobs to twist and levers to pull to keep ridiculous OP stuff under control quite easily. Certain combinations, not really meant to be used together, causing problems? Make it so they cannot be, be requiring them to have keywords on certain pieces of gear that can NOT be used at the same time. If they don't want to be so heavy handed with it, they can just drastically(or however much is appropriate) reduce the power of the ability UNLESS it has that keyword.
I'm glad to see that others are as interested as I am in seeing the monk done well!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Full Plate wearers tossing around arcane spells and using sneak attack? Can't do it, because of keywords.
I just wanted to point out something that I think might be a minor misconception about what the keywords are likely to do.
I don't think it's the case that keywords will make it impossible to do these things. Rather, I think that the lack of appropriate keywords will make it ineffective.
So, you might well have a Full Plate-wearer casting arcane spells, but the lack of arcane spell keywords on his armor will mean that those spells are weak. And don't forget that the 6-action limitation means that the Full Plate-wearer is devoting 1/6th of his actions to an ability that is a "weak attack" at best.
Full Plate wearers tossing around arcane spells and using sneak attack? Can't do it, because of keywords.I just wanted to point out something that I think might be a minor misconception about what the keywords are likely to do.
I don't think it's the case that keywords will make it impossible to do these things. Rather, I think that the lack of appropriate keywords will make it ineffective.
So, you might well have a Full Plate-wearer casting arcane spells, but the lack of arcane spell keywords on his armor will mean that those spells are weak. And don't forget that the 6-action limitation means that the Full Plate-wearer is devoting 1/6th of his actions to an ability that is a "weak attack" at best.
Perhaps you're correct, but they easily COULD do so. Just look at arcane spell failure chances in 3.5 and Pathfinder. While a wizard or a sorcerer is able to cast spells while running around in full plate and carrying a tower shield, they simply don't. Why? Because there's a much better chance that the spell WON'T work than that it will. GW could easily put a similar mechanic in place to keep this under control. They could just as easily preclude their use at all. Excepting, of course, people have access to certain feats. Bard's and magus' both have class features that allow them to cast in armor without penalty.
I'm not sure I consider the 6 action limitation a salient point. Aren't we going to be able to have 3 different 'sets' of powers, dependent on what you had in hand? While we may only have 6 actions per set, I'd assume that anyone with warrior and wizard powers would have a different 'set' for each. My understanding was that, for instance with clerics, they'd have a set with their melee weapons, a set with their holy symbol and a third set of whatever.
Is my understanding of that faulty or has it been changed in some blog/Dev interview I haven't read/heard?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your understanding about Weapon Sets is not faulty. But still, that Full Plate-wearer is still dedicating > 5% of his ability slots to a very weak and ineffective attack. Or, if he elects to use a Spellbook, he's dedicationg 50% of his Wondrous Slots to - again - weak and ineffective attacks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It doesn't even have to be ineffective. It might be merely less effective than a more appropriate tool.
You can drive a nail with a monkeywrench but the hammer is a better choice.
Well, I'm not trying to say that it has "no effect" when I say "ineffective". I'm meaing "ineffective relative to someone who has the appropriate keywords".
I think it's perfectly legitimate to describe the use of a mnokeywrench to drive nails as "ineffective".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Following the deviated thread path
It is my belief that our characters themselves will have keywords because we will have to select an archetype when we generate a character. This will give that character a keyword equivalent to the archetype. If, for example, you create a new character as a fighter archetype, then your first keyword is "fighter". If later you train as a wizard archetype you would gain a second keyword "wizard". You can still wear heavy armor assuming you have trained in the fighter skill tree for heavy armor thus gaining the heavy armor keyword. However if you were to attempt to cast spells while wearing heavy armor, the game mechanics would detect the "heavy armor" keyword and act accordingly, whether that is to prevent the casting of the spell, determine a change for spell failure, or allow the spell to be cast at a much reduced level, depending on the client scripting.
Back on path - sort of
For the monk pseudo-build at the beginning of EE, if cloth armor is a general skill tree, I will create the character with the fighter archetype training in the cloth armor skill tree (thus gaining the "cloth armor" keyword) and add the rouge archetype later. If cloth armor is not a general skill and not in the fighter skill tree family, I will start as a rouge with the cloth armor skill and at a later date add fighter to get two weapon fighting (assuming that it is not a general skill tree) to gain the "two weapon Fighting' keyword to replicate flurry of blows.
In either case that character would have two keywords associated with the character, not the equipment. I would keep the "cloth armor" keyword as I expect future monk skill tree training will be accessible with that keyword. I expect that "two weapon fighting" keyword will translate to "flurry of blows" keyword later. I think that this start will have the least conflict with moving to a monk archetype when it is released.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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There's nothing that indicates training will grant keywords to a character, much less keywords related to an archetype or role, and particularly not keywords that alter the effectiveness or armor.
Dedication bonuses, however, might provide that kind of benefit. Slotted abilities could boost armor while slotted, or grant additional keywords, and it's reasonable that an ability slot could be filled with either an armor-boosting or a spell-boosting ability, but not both at once.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Everything I've read about keywords has me fairly convinced they won't be required in order to use abilities, but will instead make those abilities more (or possibly less) effective. I think there's a lot of value in maintaining that distinction, because it maintains the original premise of a truly classless system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was under the impression that key words were associated with weapon / armor enhancements to add various buffs or debuffs for critical strikes. I will look it up in he Dev Blogs to confirm or correct my impression (later).
They're not limited to critical strikes, but otherwise that's basically the gist of it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was under the impression that key words were associated with weapon / armor enhancements to add various buffs or debuffs for critical strikes. I will look it up in he Dev Blogs to confirm or correct my impression (later).They're not limited to critical strikes, but otherwise that's basically the gist of it.
So as I suspected, key words are part of itemization and not skill / feats. So why this discussion for tying skills to key words or vice versa?
I'm of the thought that if GW considers the Monk to be the most difficult to implement into the game, wouldn't it make equal sense to work them out first, and then all others would be a less taxing task as EE progresses?
I know they have argued that the animation of the moves are the issue, but I think that is focusing on the trivial rather than the actual mechanic.
The Devs have also claimed that unarmed combat needs to have an item associated with it, otherwise it would be unbalanced to other classes. Hand wraps gives the necessary itemization needed.
Ki Powers can be treated as spells, rather than feats or skills, setting aside fir the short term their visuals in lieu of introducing their mechanical function sooner.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I was under the impression that key words were associated with weapon / armor enhancements to add various buffs or debuffs for critical strikes. I will look it up in he Dev Blogs to confirm or correct my impression (later).They're not limited to critical strikes, but otherwise that's basically the gist of it.
So as I suspected, key words are part of itemization and not skill / feats. So why this discussion for tying skills to key words or vice versa?
I'm of the thought that if GW considers the Monk to be the most difficult to implement into the game, wouldn't it make equal sense to work them out first, and then all others would be a less taxing task as EE progresses?
It's probably easier to learn how to make a type on types where it is easy to see what is desired.
I am a Computer Science major, and eventually want to get involved in creating video games both from a programming and art angle. People not involved in the industry always seem to underestimate the portion of programmer time & art assets required for new animations and so on involved in this kind of thing. It makes up the majority of time for such a project, in actuality. While I really, really, REALLY want to see monks in PFO as soon as possible, there's a reason that they're saving them for last. The majority of the art and animations required for the monk will ONLY be used by a monk, whereas the other casting and fighting animations will be used by a MUCH larger percentage of the player base.
They're just trying to be efficient, to give us the most bang for the buck. With the buck being the donated Kickstarter money. I wish it were otherwise.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would also like Monk-like abilities to be available to those who are primarily focussed on other roles. As PFO is currently described, this looks like being the case, so 'Ki-powers' will be available to all. How they bring in Ki-accumulating abilities remains to be seen.
I predict, however, that mages and sorcerers will look at some serious unarmed moves to supplement their staffs when the spell mana runs out. It would also be a good way to model an Oriental wuxia-style mystic, with the monk/sorcerer combination especially 'on-theme'.
Certainly, my Witch will be looking to pick up some self-defence techniques that don't involve heavy weapons. Aside from anything else, there is no need to Thread your hands or feet....
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Goblin Squad Member
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Aside from anything else, there is no need to Thread your hands or feet....
Actually this was just one problem Stephen Cheney sited. In unarmed combat there still has to be a slotted item / weapon. The reason being, it would be an unfare advantage not to be required to use that slot and or thread.
Some of us have suggested a very practical resolution for that concern, wrappings. Hand or foot wrappings can be slotted as weapons. They can be crafted and at the same multiple tiers within the crafting system. Those items can be threaded or left exposed to potential looting. Those items can be constructed to include tge same number of key words as any other equipted item. The animations require no more than a punch or a kick.
What I would really love to see is the monk 'unarmed' weapons having options. It would be super awesome if there were a number of different unarmed weapon 'types'. There would be weapons that took up 1 slot or 2 slots. This would follow the typical pattern of damage between 1 and 2 handed weapons for purposes of damage and attacks a round. Normally, you would dual wield 2 handed weapons, though a cool way to go would be to have one of the 1 handed weapons working in a similar way to a shield(the equivalent of Snapping Turtle Style in Ultimate Combat.)
1 handed weapons could be generally divided between 3 types. Fist, kick, and ki(or maybe elemental). Depending on the combination of these unarmed 'weapons' the animations would look different. 2 kick weapons means your unarmed style is almost all kicks... jumping kicks, spinning kicks, low/high kick combos, etc - very similar to tae kwon do. 2 fists would be more like boxing or kempo. Fast hand combos, palm strikes, spinning back knuckles, hooks, uppercuts. 2 ki would be the most 'special effects' intensive. Flaming(or electric, cold, acid, sonic, force, etc.) strikes. Maybe something like tai chi chuan, lots of palm strikes, simple but effective kicks. Combinations of them would be hybrids. Fist + kick = punches and kicks in combinations. Fist + ki = flaming dragon punches. You get the idea.
2 handed versions could be similar to the above combinations, but work off of the the damage tables and advantages that come with 2 handed weapons. In return, perhaps the PFO equivalent of 'flurry of blows' wouldn't work with it. So, just like normal weapons, there would be the option for a style that gives lots of attacks that hit for less damage and a style that hits less often but MUCH harder.
The advantage to this system is it makes it much simpler to program the mechanical side of unarmed combat. It works JUST like 2 weapon fighting or using a 2 hander(or in the case of the the offhand 'shield' option, just like sword and board style). The disadvantage, and the reason it probably won't be used(which makes me sad :( - this would be the best looking combat system ever!) is that it's a LOT of animations.
Whatever GW decides to do for GW, I just hope it's awesome and not lame like so many attempts at making the monk for a D&D based video game have come out as.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"With Chi just flowing in the right places you can see into the future and dodge any attack. Your body has become so pure that no element can harm it. Magic has no effect on you, because with the realization of the ultimate truth you know it only affects those attached to five elements, mind, intelligence and the sense of self..."