Floodwalker (witch)

[Steven Helt]

Floodwalker (witch)
Throughout the Sellen River basin, drowned spirits and malicious patrons like Zyphus and Hanspur grant power to those who bring the dangers of the river onto dry land.
Class Skills: Remove Fly from the floodwalker’s list of class skills. Replace it with Survival and Swim.
Spells: A floodwalker replaces some of her patron spells with the following: 4th—aboleth’s lung, 10th—suffocation, 16th—seamantle.
Drowning Aura (Su): Beginning at 1st level, any creature attempting to hold its breath within 30 feet of the floodwalker uses air as if engaged in combat or similar activity, even if that creature only takes move actions. At 5th level, maneuvering in water is more difficult for her enemies. Add 5 to the DC of any Swim checks made within 30 feet of the floodwalker, and double penalties for fighting under water. The floodwalker may exempt any creature within this aura from these increased penalties. This ability replaces a witch’s first-level hex.
River Stride (Su): At 4th level, the floodwalker’s familiar takes no penalties for movement or combat in water and may walk on the surface of water and other liquids as if under the effects of a water walking spell. At 8th level, this ability extends to the floodwalker herself. The floodwalker (and her familiar) chooses at the beginning of each round whether this ability is active or suppressed, allowing her to walk on water or to swim normally. This ability replaces a witch’s 6th-level hex.
Dire Baptism (Su): Beginning at 10th level, a floodwalker gains strength from her patron when creatures die from lack of air. Whenever a creature with an Intelligence of 3 or higher drowns or asphyxiates within 30 feet of her, she gains the benefit of a death knell spell for one hour. If a floodwalker physically drowns such a victim (holding a grappled or helpless creature under water until it dies), the bonuses gained from this ability are doubled. Benefits from multiple baptisms do not stack, but each baptism begins the duration anew for the appropriate bonuses. This ability replaces a witch’s 10th-level hex.
Hexes: The following witch hexes complement the floodwalker archetype: blight, swamp hag, water lung.
Major Hexes: The following major hex complements the floodwalker archetype: weather control.
Grand Hexes: The following grand hex complements the floodwalker archetype: natural disaster.

[Sean K Reynolds]

I like tying the morbid minor gods to witch patronage.

I like that you didn't limit what patron the witch could choose.

Spells: These should list the sourcebook after the name (for books other than the Core Rulebook).

Drowning Aura: Witch hexes normally give her additional powers over herself or are direct attacks against a single target. Having an aura (especially at 1st level) feels inappropriate for a witch hex. Compare to the slumber hex, which only affects one creature and the creature can't be hexed by it twice in 24 hours... this affects all creatures and can be used over and over again. It should be something you cast on one creature (which means you can improve its effects, as they're kinda weak because you're spreading it over multiple creatures), which would also make it more obvious that the target gets a save (I know that's the default, but as written it feels like you don't get a save).

River Stride: The weirdness of this one is you're giving up your 6th-level hex to get a new ability at 4th level, instead of giving up your 4th-level hex. And comparing this hex to the flight hex, this hex seems weaker (you can water walk at will at 8th, compared to [level] minutes of flight per day at 5th).

Dire Baptism: I like this ability, though I don't see it coming up much. The witch doesn't have any abilities that directly make a target drown, so you're probably waiting to see if your drowning aura speeds up their air consumption enough to make dire baptism kick in. And as the archetype doesn't give the witch any obvious abilities to facilitate the witch being the one holding the creature underwater, it feels like an incidental ability—something big to give up in place of a hex. As a hex, it could be something where you make the target start to drown, and if it dies you get the death knell. Also, you don't need to state that multiple baptisms don't stack (that's the general rule for the game).

I like the theme of this archetype and it really feels like something that belongs in the River Kingdoms, but it has some mechanical problems that make it unappealing to players and not particularly useful to GMs (a crocodile is more effective using grab, swimming underwater, and death roll than setting up this archetype's drowning abilities).

I do NOT recommend this archetype for advancement.

[Clark Peterson]

Initial Impression: I really like this core idea. I love your working of the drowning theme into the witch class. Perfect for the River Kingdoms. I have to admit, I love this idea. I'm with Sean on the Drowning Aura, it should be targeted. But to me, that is a developer note back to you. I think what is getting lost in the mechanical criticism of that power is that it is really F-ing cool! Listen, that comment goes for the rest of the abilities. I agree with Sean, there is some work to do here. But I don't expect perfection in Superstar round 2. What I want is a great big core idea and great creativity and competent execution. Yes, your submission needs some tweaks (and if it had them it might be my favorite of the round). But even with those tweaks we can't lose sight of the fact that this a great core idea.

I DO Recommend this archetype for advancement. But you better improve your mechanics in Round 3 if you make it.

[Wolfgang Baur]

Steven, you've heard it a ton, but congrats on advancing to the Top 32!

Taking a look at this witch archetype, it seems to be another in the large class of archetypes that are all about water. It isn't quite as narrow as the boat archetypes or the Hanspur-specific archetypes, but it is still a niche role and it has some power-level issues that Sean pointed out.

I also hear Clark's point on flavor: of all the water-centric archetypes, this one is pretty well done, and in a class that doesn't always get a ton of attention. I'm also a big fan of your naming for the class and abilities, which I think is evocative and helpful to setting the right tone.

I'm on the fence with this one, and I'm leaving it up to the voters as to whether you get to the next round. Good luck!

[Jason Schimmel]

Good flavor tie in with the deities.
Aura of Drowning seems fairly potent for a 1st level hex swap, Granted the aura doesnt scale, like a hex would, but it might have been better to hold off on this for a bit.

River Stride seems ok but the uneven level swapping puts me off.

I really like Dire Baptism. Especially considering your tie in to Hanspur in the flavor text.

Suggesting hexes was a nice touch and the kind of thing you would see in an actual rulebook so kudos for that.

Good Luck.

[Drejk]

I think that this is one of the cases where it would be better to make a some hexes instead of witch's archetype. Note that even professional designers fell to this trap.
(Dreamweaver witch, I am looking on you...)

[Jaerc]

Great tie-in to RK? Check. Cognizance of real world and Golarion witch lore? Check. A few textual errors are holding it back, but overall I'm keen on this, most especially it's evocative, Sandersonian, name.

[Andrew Marlowe]

I think there is a lot to like here...and a lot to work on but I'm more favorably inclined than not. I'm on the fence but teetering your way a developer could really help you make this a rocking archetype.

Congratulations on making the top 32 and good luck...I'll probably be back to look this over again before voting.

[Celeador]

I'm liking this one a lot! Big idea and I thought the tie in was well done.

[N. Edward Lange]

good template use; strong RK connection; well written (though i'm assuming "6" in "6th level hex" is a typo).

this seems like a well balanced 'archetype'- the problem i see is that, apart from slight tweaks to skills and patron spells, it feels you've really just created 3 new hexes, not really a unique archetype.

[mookfarchings]

You have my vote.

[frank gori]

Good: Theme and core idea are excellent. Love this as a villian in particular.
Bad: Too niche
Ugly: Like so niche I would never play it making this a DM archetype at best.
Overall: Writing and cool factor need to sell this one, I might vote on it depends on your competition but likely- No

[Archomedes]

Until the class gets aboleth's lung at 4th level, the floodwalker is doing very little with their drowning aura. I would have worked in a hex that causes drowning rather than making drowning easier when one of these is around. The fact that you have to touch someone to get them started drowning is a mark against you, that you give an ability that depends on a 1/2 BAB base class grappling something to pin it underwater is the second mark.

Does this archetype floodwalk? Not really, not until 8th level. They drowntouch, they probably drownjoy, they might even quenchlife. But floodwalking isn't their core concept and the name should reflect that.

This is not to say this is bad design. It is just sort of...bland. It doesn't grab me (and hold my head underwater until I drown.) It doesn't evoke a character for me. It has the seed of some good mechanical mojo, but the execution is kind of meh.

I might vote for this archetype, but I probably wont.

[R D Ramsey]

I will give general impressions, but with 3 areas of particular focus that suit my personal interests. Archetype and ability names: do they show flair? How closely tied to the River Kingdom is the archetype? And last but certainly not least, do I want to play this archetype?

Archetype and ability names: Above average. Not crazy about Floodwalker, but the abilities are all well-named.

River Kingdom tie: Above average. Ties to the rivers, of course. Might fit even better in other regions.

Desire to play: Average. The ones tied so closely to the water are tough. There's some cool abilities here, but they would come up so rarely in most cases that it's hard to get really excited about them. I admire the concepts, but I'm not sure how they'd play out.

[Mikko Kallio]

There's a lot of good stuff in this archetype, but I don't know if it would be very useful for player characters. This is more like an NPC villain archetype you'd use in one encounter where the GM has set up a situation where the abilities become useful. The PCs see their crew die in a horrible way, and they're struggling to fight the witch. A memorable encounter for sure. But something people want to play? Not sure.

Anyway, I wish you good luck in round 2, Steven!

[RonarsCorruption]

I love, love this archetype. Yeah, maybe the level 1 aura is a little strong - but it's not dangerous until higher levels. At level 1, you basically halve the duration of breath holding around you. That's a totally fine level 1 aura, IMO.

The flavor of this is spot on, the mechanics all seem sound, but it's got that mojo that I don't see in a lot of the other entries.

best of luck in this and future rounds!

[Jason Rice]

I like this a lot. It's got style, and encourages the witch to get his/her hands dirty.

With respect to the professionals (and I DO respect their opinions), my humble opinion is that the Drowning Aura is not a hex. Its an ability the archetype gets instead of a hex, and therefore shouldn't be held to the same mechanics (single target, etc.) as the hex it is replacing. If these abilities were closer in style and mechanics to the hexes, then this would cease to be an archetype, and just become a tree/chain of acquired hexes. Making them different IS what makes this an archetype.

As Mr. Reynolds pointed out, this ability affects all creatures, but it is weaker than the Slumber Hex. Having GM'ed someone who selected the slumber hex, I can personally attest to how abused/overpowered that hex can be (but that's an issue for another thread). My point being, Mr. Helt recognized that this ability was "always on", and therefore reduced the power level accordingly.

Also, I think that perhaps some reviewers might have missed that suffocation is both a witch spell, AND on this archetype's list of patron spells. And it just so happens that the witch can cast it at exactly the same level they acquire the Dire Baptism ability. The text reads drowns or asphyxiates. They get the bonus either way, but it is only doubled if they drown.

You have my vote, sir.

[Kiel Howell]

Class Skills: A little too wordy and broken into 2 sentences for something that should have been, "Replace Fly with Swim and Survival."

Drowning Aura: Whoa...that's just...cool. Why hasn't this been done before?!?!?

River Stride: I honestly expected to see this type of ability a lot more. I was a little weirded out that I didn't something like this. Well done on the execution and brilliant that you give it to the familiar first and then the PC.

Dire Baptism: Again, just cool.

OK, gushing aside, this is a really awesome idea. I mean, the Water Snake Archetype for this round is similar, but for a ranger, and this I think comes close to beating it.

Now, you've got some mechanical issues as mentioned. You know by now what they are so I won't repeat.

You're theme is solid and kept throughout the entry. The naming is cool.

I want to play a witch for the first time, with Dex pumped and using the Agile Maneuvers feat with this archetype. Heck...I'd make a dwarf witch that carries a wash basin and enough water to fill it at ALL times! This is just cool.

Overall, if you can't tell I like it, then I'll say it plain: I LIKE THIS. Work on your mechanics and balancing and your Round 3 should be KILLER if you make it.

I DO recommend and now I have to decide witch(I mean which) other vote to bump off.

[Jerry Keyes]

Steven Helt wrote:

Floodwalker (witch)...

Floodwalker! I'm digging the name. The flavor text works for me too.

Steven Helt wrote:

Class Skills: Remove Fly from the floodwalker’s list of class skills. Replace it with Survival and Swim.

2-for-1 special? Eh, okay.

Steven Helt wrote:

Spells: A floodwalker replaces some of her patron spells...

It would've been nice if 2 of the 3 spells were spells the witch didn't already have access to. But, the theme still holds.

Steven Helt wrote:

Drowning Aura (Su): Beginning at 1st level, any creature attempting to hold its breath within...

Some people hammered this for being just a swap of hexes, but really, this approach is the best (IMHO) way to add a solid theme at 1st level. The only problem I have with it is how it doesn't really do much at 1st level -- In fact it does nothing if your targets aren't holding their breath.

This seems like a chess move to me. You have sacrificed something clearly useful (the 1st level hex) for something that will be more powerful in the future. I'm not a big fan of this approach. A character should be effective and have clear abilities at all levels.

If there is something here and I'm just missing it, then you're hiding it too well; which is just as bad. I do like the exemption though, and I like that it improves at 5th level, even though that improvement still feels like you're setting up other abilities.

Steven Helt wrote:

River Stride (Su): At 4th level, the floodwalker’s familiar takes no penalties for movement or combat in water...

This is where your thinking ahead makes sense. Sure, you may have a familiar already suited to water (which honestly would be better), but if you didn't, you do now!

But, what's the deal with getting something at 4th level for the 6th level hex? So she gets two things at 4th and nothing at 6th? That's not kosher.

Steven Helt wrote:

Dire Baptism (Su): Beginning at 10th level, a floodwalker gains strength from her patron...

And this is why you sacrificed your pawn at 1st level, right? That's a long time to wait for the payback. However, this is creepy cool and borders on evil (kind of what I would think a witch-type would be).

Steven Helt wrote:

Hexes: The following witch hexes complement the floodwalker archetype...

I'm not sure this follows the template that was given, but it doesn't bother me either.

OVERALL: The flavor of the names and powers are rich and tight to be sure, but your approach on some of the mechanics gives me pause. The archetype fits in the RK and could easily be used in other watery locations.

I'm leaning towards voting for this one, but still have a couple of reservations.

Good luck!

[Joel Flank]

Like I've commented on the other archetypes that involve drowning, it's bad - it's simply REALLY hard to drown someone in Pathfinder, since they get their constitution in rounds before they start to drown, unless you teleport water into their lungs or something so they can't hold their breath. Even with powers that reduce this - 5 rounds instead of 10 for an average Con is still an enternity in combat, assuming they don't escape.

I actually think that the drowning aura is weak compared to a hex - can't see why a witch would ever want this. If their enemies aren't in danger of drowning, it does nothing. And there's nothing later on that lets the witch drown someone or be better at grappling them, etc.

Compare to a standard witch - use slumber, tie the enemy up and hold them under the water - much better than drowning aura. Maybe as a special case spell it would work, but as a major class power, no thanks.

[Prizrak]

You are one of the 6 contestants I'm enthusiastic enough to vote for this round... but to be completely honest, your archetype is significantly less interesting to me than the other 5, both in mechanics and flavor. I unabashedly admit that I want to see the creator of the Quicksand Cloak come up with another amazing idea like the first one.

[Fiendish Dire Weasel]

Joel Flank wrote:

Like I've commented on the other archetypes that involve drowning, it's bad - it's simply REALLY hard to drown someone in Pathfinder, since they get their constitution in rounds before they start to drown, unless you teleport water into their lungs or something so they can't hold their breath. Even with powers that reduce this - 5 rounds instead of 10 for an average Con is still an enternity in combat, assuming they don't escape.

Suffocation is a 5th level witch spell - a Floodwalker would obviously choose that as one of their spells and use it all the time. This would mitigate most of your concerns.

[Effie Schwartz-Craighill]

Aboleth's Lung, a 2nd level spell granted by this archetype at 4th level, also causes creatures to immediately begin suffocating. I think drowning aura is a totally viable ability as the floodwalker gains levels. Cool stuff IMHO.

[Steven Helt]

I want to say thank you to the Paizo community for your feedback and support. I'll have some responses to a few comments I've seen, including what I believe is an important lesson for every rookie designer. I think I'll also offer one or two builds to illustrate what I envisioned the floodwalker to be capable of.

But most importantly, I just want to continue to wish my fellow round two competitors luck in gaining the attention of the great companies who publish the game we love most!

[Jason Rice]

Michael Pruess wrote:

Aboleth's Lung, a 2nd level spell granted by this archetype at 4th level, also causes creatures to immediately begin suffocating. I think drowning aura is a totally viable ability as the floodwalker gains levels. Cool stuff IMHO.

Heh. I caught that people were missing Suffocation, but I never thought about using Aboleth's Lung offensively. I just read it and mentally categorized it as a water-breathing spell. That's awesome, and I like this archetype even more now.

[Steven Helt]

Okay, I have a few minutes at lunch and I'd like to offer some responses to feedback. My first response is to thank everyone for their comments. We grow with feedback, and my chief lesson this round is that how I view it mechanically in my head is not always how it will be read by a voter or consumer.

To me, the inclusion of aboleth's lung and suffocation are no-brainers - this class can control combat. Shut down one or two combatants, use other spells and hexes to buff your friends or curse your enemies, or even get into the mix physically with a severely disadvantaged opponent. But the spell choices and other combinations didn't make those options clear to everyone, which is on me. How I see her at 10th or 20th level is not how people read the class from the beginning, and I am probably in the round of sixteen by the slimmest freaking margin because of that failure. I had word count availbale, I could have beefed up a little language instead of fretting over rounds four and five (I don't have a lot of time on my hands, so I'm taking every minute I can to have these things ready ahead of time).

A few specific responses about abilities:

Drowning aura

Spoiler:

I intended from the beginning for the floodwalker to have an aura with no save that hampered enemies on her turf but still had an application on dry land. I considered a save and a single target briefly, but then I felt that would receive criticism for just being another hex. As written, she gives up a hex for a less powerful ability that's always available and has strong synergy with her abilities later. I still like it, but comments about the balance of this ability are very meaningful. It's black art to balance a less powerful overall ability by making it available at will or allowing no save, etc. Also, some might think " I can't play that, it sucks until 8th level). I like what I chose, but this is a tough contest and that risk might not be so worthwhile next few rounds, Lord willing.

River Stride

Spoiler:

I really screwed up here. You go through one revision after another trying to guess feedback and entertain balance issues. You read the "what not to do" threads and think you've mostly followed this advice, and then near the end you think "water walking at will is too powerful for 4th or 6th level, so we'll split it up between familiar and witch.". Then you forget the flying hex, then you decide to swap out the 6th level hex and make the ability available on either side of it. I should have known to leave it alone and make the swap cleaner. Yeesh.

Dire Baptism

Spoiler:

This is what I mean when I say I erred by not makingthe text clear to everyone. A badass archetype is one that gets players drooling over mechanics AND mojo, and I made the mistake of thinking everyone would automatically play it the way I thought of it. No question to me that this girl can compete in combat physically, even with her 1/2 BAB. She can hex others into a more level playing field. She can build for combat. She can use magic items and spells. Most importantly, she can use this ability on a less challenging combat and then fuel her way to better buffing. But the fact that there are questions about it means I didn't do my job as well as I'd hoped. I think death knell is a fun concept that people don't work into their builds, but at the same time it's not a powerful enough ability to excite players. I think getting a single caster level from a [i]suffocation or other spell is great. I think getting physical strength (and another caster level) from her patron if she actually gets her hands wet is cinematic and fun. She'd be great to roleplay. But how many times does someone think a class or archetype would be great and others are non-plussed until you build it for them? Or how many time does someone get excited about a concept that just doesn't work as well as they want (anyone remember Master of the Unseen Hand?) Not Superstar. Must do better.

So...some ideas of what was going through my head, or wasn't. Later I'll post one or two versions of a floodwalker build as a sort of fun director's cut. Happy drowning people!

I mean...um....."happy drowning, people!"

[Steven Helt]

Oh..I have a question maybe a judge can answer. I presented the witch as the PRD presents them, including the recommended hexes. Was that a mistake? Some have commented that it didn't fit the template.

[Steven Helt]

Shalewigg isn't quite finished yet, but work begs me to cut her loose and focus on other things for a few days. So here's the high-level development of the floodwalker. I think during building she looks pretty good at intermediate and lower levels, but this build is sure to own its corner of the world, and threaten whatever she encounters beyond it.

You know you wanted her, Ziv. :b

Shalewigg, floodwalker

Spoiler:

Shalewigg CR 19
XP 204,800
human female witch 20
NE Medium humanoid
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft., see in darkness; Perception +33
Aura drowning (30 ft.)
DEFENSE
AC 29, touch 19, flat-footed 25 (+5 armor, +5 def, +4 Dex, +5 nat)
hp 162 (20d6+80); SR 18
Fort +15, Ref +15, Will +21
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +5 spell-storing dagger +21/+16 (1d4+12, 19-20), hair +16 (d4+10)
Space 5 ft., Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with hair)
Special Attacks natural disaster (DC 30), prehensile hair (Str 30),
Spells Memorized (CL 20th, spell penetration +22)
5 9th—extended frightful aspect, mass suffocation (DC 31), power word killB, storm of vengeance (DC 29), wail of the banshee (DC 31)
5 8th—frightful aspect, horrid wilting (DC 30), moment of prescience, seamantleB, stormbolts (DC 28)
5 7th—finger of death (DC 30)B, harm (DC 29), heal, mass hold person (DC 27), waves of exhaustion
6 6th—circle of death (DC 29)B, extended suffocation (DC 31), eyebite (DC 28), greater dispel magic, greater heroism, unwilling shield (DC 28)
6 5th—cloudkill (DC 25), cure critical wounds, major curse (DC 27), quickened suffocation (DC 31)Bx2, waves of fatigue (DC 27)
10 4th—black tentacles, crushing despair (DC 24), dimension door, greater false life, intensified lightning bolt (15d6, DC 23)x2, poison (DC 26), reach vampiric touch (10d6), spite x2
6 3rd—clairaudience/clairvoyance, lightning bolt (DC 23), rage, reach aboleth’s lung (DC 23), strangling hair (+30 CMB), vampiric touch
7 2nd—aboleth’s lung (DC 23)B, alter self, hold person (DC 22), inflict moderate wounds (DC 24), intensified burning hands (10d4, DC 22), intensified ray of enfeeblement (1d6+7, DC 23), see invisibility
7 1st—burning hands, comprehend languages, damp powder, deathwatchB, enlarge person, ray of enfeeblement (DC 23) x2
0 (at will)—bleed (DC 22), detect magic, message, touch of fatigue (DC 22)

STATISTICS
Str 24 (28), Dex 18, Con 18, Int 30, Wis 18, Cha 18
Base Atk +10; CMB +18 (+20 grapple, +23 with hair); CMD 32 (34 vs grapple)
[i]Feats Extend Spell, Greater Spell Focus (necromancy), Improved Grapple, Intensify Spell, Quicken Spell, Reach Spell, Spell Focus (necromancy), Spell Perfection (suffocation), Split Hex, Split Major Hex, Witch Knife
Skills Acrobatics +10, Appraise +16, Bluff +9, Climb +8 (+11), Diplomacy +15, Heal +7, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (arcana) +21, Knowledge (history) +16, Knowledge (nature) +19, Knowledge (planes) +19, Knowledge (religion) +13, Linguistics +17, Perception +25, Sense Motive +25, Spellcraft +29, Stealth +20, Survival +13, Swim +18 (+21), Use Magic Device +13
Special Qualities dire baptism, river stride, ward, water lung, weather control
Languages Abyssal, Aklo, Aquan, Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Giant, Infernal, Sylvan
Gear belt of physical might (Dex, Con) +6, headband of mental superiority +6, manual of gainful exercise +4, tome of clear thought +4, ring of wizardry IV[i], [i]ring of protection +5, robe of the archmagi, ioun stone – pale green prism, amulet of natural armor +5, +5 spellstoring dagger

[Sean K Reynolds]

I missed the Feb 6 question...

I remember there was a discussion about whether or not you could do such a thing. I think the answer fell to "yes, you can, but the focus really should be on what's cool about your archetype, so don't waste too many words pointing out existing [pick-a-bits] that work with your archetype."

[The Young Squire Pettypants]

Thank you SO much for this archetype! Incorporating it inspired one of my most beloved characters yet!

[mariarodrigue]

You perform your duties in the Freedoms and provide a monk who may be a little more socially inclined. I will vote for you. rooftop snipers