Goblin Squad Member
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I wasnt really worried about this until recently. Have any of you ever played any MMOs where you unfortunately lvl'd a class that was useless or another class could do what you do but only better? This is what Im talking about.
Recently, thinking about the devs stance on lack of a "stealth" mechanic got me thinking about how that might effect my rogue. The description from the GW Blog says this though:
•Rogues—masters of stealth. Ever just one step ahead of danger, these characters bank on their cunning, skill, and charm to bend fate to their favor.
Did you catch that stealth part........ yet no stealth?
Another thing, UMD, could I just UMD all the rogue skills I need and maybe some healing and just be a fighter?
I just think all the class Archetypes should either be unique or have some unique skills and abilities.
For instance if you want to heal you need to skill up some cleric. Dont have cleric yet? Cant heal. Etc etc. There are no copies of skills on other classes.
Or it could be just 1 or 2 unique things that this class can do, and no other class and no amount of UMD can. Like maybe my Rogue cant stealth, and maybe you can UMD traps/disarming, and maybe other melee classes outclass me. But only a Rogue can use a steal ability or pick locks?
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Classes are a thing of the past as far as PFOL is concerned.
That is something I dont think many people really grasp. Whenever you do X, X skill goes up. Whenever you use Y, your Y skill goes up.
Sure certain archetypes will allow you access to various abilities that were previously attached to the idea of classes, but other than possibly the idea that certain merit badges will branch off one another from prerequisites, you will be no more a rogue with 4 merit badges in the associated skills and 8 in other areas, than I would be with 7 badges in the associated skills, and 2 it other areas. All of your skills will synergize with all the other skills you choose to have based on your own character experience.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Classes are a thing of the past as far as PFOL is concerned.
That is something I dont think many people really grasp. Whenever you do X, X skill goes up. Whenever you use Y, your Y skill goes up.
Sure certain archetypes will allow you access to various abilities that were previously attached to the idea of classes, but other than possibly the idea that certain merit badges will branch off one another from prerequisites, you will be no more a rogue with 4 merit badges in the associated skills and 8 in other areas, than I would be with 7 badges in the associated skills, and 2 it other areas. All of your skills will synergize with all the other skills you choose to have based on your own character experience.
I don't think he's concerned with the mechanism of the skill training. I think he's worried he will not be able to use stealth because it may not be in game. There is another thread that is kind of old where the Devs said as much.
Now how can he play his "thief", don't think class but what they do, without stealth. Could you play a "cleric" without being able to heal? I agree that it is a fairly important part of what thieves do in the Pathfinder IP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Believe me I am very aware of what a classless system is.
Im speaking specifically of the class archetypes and the meaning behind me wanting to specifically be Rogue only and the use of UMD to diminish roles.
If its a classless system think of the classes as schools of knowledge instead. Why WOULDNT each school be unique? Why would you have copies of skills in a classless system. Unless! The X skill in A school is better than the x skill in B school. Which pretty much gets back to the concept, not specifics, of useless classes.
And aside from for RP purposes or to get the capstone ability why would I stick with rogue, If I can do all the rogueish things through other means. Seriously if I can just follow something like a fighter school and UMD every utility skill I want then why wouldnt I? On the other hand I could just put a bunch of random stuff together, but that looses a bit a flavor. I mean thats fine if thats "Just how it is".
Edit: Yes what Ludy said, but also the other part about copies of skills too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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from the same blog:
*Rangers—masters of tracking. Knowledgeable, patient, and skilled hunters, these characters hound man, beast, and monster alike, gaining insight into the way of the predator.
Tracking may not even be in the game, you are already concerned about stealth, and things like archery comes under fighter - which leaves basically the 'insight' part. I think ranger should worry you more than rogue.
Seriously, I think GW will do a fine job here, but if not then the open skill system makes it extremely easy for you to pick only what you think is useful.
But I would love some crowdforging about what is (actually) the defining feature of each archetype.
Barbarians are raging, sure, but i don't believe people choose ranger in order to track animals in the forest (hint: i think they love their pets more).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wasnt really worried about this until recently. Have any of you ever played any MMOs where you unfortunately lvl'd a class that was useless or another class could do what you do but only better? This is what Im talking about.
Recently, thinking about the devs stance on lack of a "stealth" mechanic got me thinking about how that might effect my rogue. The description from the GW Blog says this though:
•Rogues—masters of stealth. Ever just one step ahead of danger, these characters bank on their cunning, skill, and charm to bend fate to their favor.
Did you catch that stealth part........ yet no stealth?
Another thing, UMD, could I just UMD all the rogue skills I need and maybe some healing and just be a fighter?
I just think all the class Archetypes should either be unique or have some unique skills and abilities.
For instance if you want to heal you need to skill up some cleric. Dont have cleric yet? Cant heal. Etc etc. There are no copies of skills on other classes.
Or it could be just 1 or 2 unique things that this class can do, and no other class and no amount of UMD can. Like maybe my Rogue cant stealth, and maybe you can UMD traps/disarming, and maybe other melee classes outclass me. But only a Rogue can use a steal ability or pick locks?
Can you link posts about the stealth conversation? I strongly like the classless system but at the same time I would strongly emphasize and preserve alignment based archetypes. (Cause they will bring many different kinds play styles into the game.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Doubtful. Magic itself is the purview of only a few classes, and cross training can mean you lose your capstone ability.
Is this going to be one of those games where everyone trains for healing spells because there's no reason not to?
Not anymore. Now you only don't have it active if you choose multiclass abilities at that time.
But training takes a LONG time. So if you want to get healing abilities, and be good at it... you'll be spending a lot of time working your healing up. And then there's whatever alignment restrictions etc are in play.
You'll also probably have to equip certain things, which means some of your weapon slots will probably need to be taken up just for that, limiting your other abilities.
That's the impression I'm getting so far.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Doubtful. Magic itself is the purview of only a few classes, and cross training can mean you lose your capstone ability.
Is this going to be one of those games where everyone trains for healing spells because there's no reason not to?
Cross training only makes you lose time. 'Equipping' (slotting) a healing spell makes you lose your dedication bonus (until you slot only single-archetype abilities).
The only reason not to is training time. So I believe 'everyone' may train the simplest healing spells (or training to use a CLW wand), but only healer classes will bother training more powerful healing spells as the training time increases.
a lvl 8 fighter that can cast CLW at caster level 1 is hardly unbalancing the game. The question here is more at what rate said fighter would heal between combats if he had no healing spells.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A newbie Cleric can cast a heal spell. For a character to follow that path they would have to be able to train in a skill that gave that ability and not have it take forever.
Depending on how "natural healing" occurs, this may very well be a common ability to gain regardless of main path.
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Bard/Minstrel/Troubadour is a pretty useless class in most MMORPGs and should probably have been merged with the Thief/Rogue class.
I was just talking about fantasy MMORPGs in general and not about Pathfinder pen and paper.
I don't see what you mean here, in fact the number of MMO's that I've played (Admittedly few, but somewhere around half dozen) the games that even HAD bard type classes, they rocked. Take FFXI for example, bard was a FANTASTIC class, as long as you were willing to sub-job something tankier if you wanted to solo, or if you felt like grouping it made excellent main job for pretty much any casting job.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see what you mean here, in fact the number of MMO's that I've played (Admittedly few, but somewhere around half dozen) the games that even HAD bard type classes, they rocked. Take FFXI for example, bard was a FANTASTIC class, as long as you were willing to sub-job something tankier if you wanted to solo, or if you felt like grouping it made excellent main job for pretty much any casting job.Bard/Minstrel/Troubadour is a pretty useless class in most MMORPGs and should probably have been merged with the Thief/Rogue class.
I was just talking about fantasy MMORPGs in general and not about Pathfinder pen and paper.
In EverQuest they were the worst class to play besides Ranger.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is this going to be one of those games where everyone trains for healing spells because there's no reason not to?
I Really hope not. I believe it can be in part inhibited by the time you take to train certain skill that are out of your archetype and some should simply be unacessible. So if you are a paladin and wants to train some rogue skill you sholud take many days (even months) to train a skill that a rogue trains in minutes or hours. And some, as for example, open locks should simply be unavailable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bard/Minstrel/Troubadour is a pretty useless class in most MMORPGs and should probably have been merged with the Thief/Rogue class.
I was just talking about fantasy MMORPGs in general and not about Pathfinder pen and paper.
I still believe it is possible to create a Bard class as an effective and interesting to play class. The fact that no one have done it before do not imply GW cannot do it for the first time.
At least in tabletop RPGs (unless you play focusing in having increasing power more than in roleplayng itself) bards are one of the (if not THE) most rewarding and interesting class to play. So if they put enough time and ressources in developing this class I´m confident that they will come up with a pretty nice class to play in a MMO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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from the same blog:
*Rangers—masters of tracking. Knowledgeable, patient, and skilled hunters, these characters hound man, beast, and monster alike, gaining insight into the way of the predator.
Tracking may not even be in the game(...)
I believe tracking could be replaced by an increased perception. So ranger could just simply detect monsters or even enemies in a greater range than other classes. In the same way a mage could do by casting detect monster, but it would be automatic.
Maybe even creating a tracking skill coud not be as trick as it looks in a first sight. It could be used , for example, to detect (or increasing the chance of detection) hiding places such as the thieves hideouts simply adding to the character's perception or as an active skill. It is up to GW devs to come out with a good solution in this issue and it is not impossible to solve.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is this going to be one of those games where everyone trains for healing spells because there's no reason not to?I Really hope not. I believe it can be in part inhibited by the time you take to train certain skill that are out of your archetype and some should simply be unacessible. So if you are a paladin and wants to train some rogue skill you sholud take many days (even months) to train a skill that a rogue trains in minutes or hours. And some, as for example, open locks should simply be unavailable.
Players are unlikely to preoccupy themselves with skills of such limited use unless they are skills appropriate to their chosen archetype. Most players aren't going to devote training time they need on something they shouldn't really want.
After all, if they aren't intending to be a cleric, why spend training on a spell you can use once a day when you can learn to craft or purchase healing potions you can chug, one after the other?
I read the post about cheaters using 3ed party programs to detect hidden characters. It didn't say there would be no stealth in the game, but maybe that is said elsewhere. It pretty much kills the rogue archetype, and In many games the ranger relies on stealth as well. In a game like PFO not having stealth is going to make it difficult if not impossible to play a rogue and perhaps a ranger as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I read the post about cheaters using 3ed party programs to detect hidden characters. It didn't say there would be no stealth in the game, but maybe that is said elsewhere. It pretty much kills the rogue archetype, and In many games the ranger relies on stealth as well. In a game like PFO not having stealth is going to make it difficult if not impossible to play a rogue and perhaps a ranger as well.
Since there will be no classes in PFO so if you want to play as a Pathfinder pen and paper Ranger all you need to do is to train in the longbow skill, train in the tame animal skill and train in a random melee weapon skill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I read the post about cheaters using 3ed party programs to detect hidden characters. It didn't say there would be no stealth in the game, but maybe that is said elsewhere. It pretty much kills the rogue archetype, and In many games the ranger relies on stealth as well. In a game like PFO not having stealth is going to make it difficult if not impossible to play a rogue and perhaps a ranger as well.Since there will be no classes in PFO so if you want to play as a Pathfinder pen and paper Ranger all you need to do is to train the longbow skill, train the tame animal skill and train in a random melee weapon skill.
<<forgive me if the issues I will bring now have been already adressed but I could not find it in hundreds of threads and posts>>
I'm very worried about this no class system in PFO, because it may be dificult for the newbie player to make the right decisions trough his char development to reach the results he wants as a char.
I hope there is some guiding system to help people to make the right decisions and pick the right skills. Some roles could (or should) require decisions that blocks certain skill path(s) for example. So if you want to play a paladin, for example, you should be guided to not take steps out this path while picking your skill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I read the post about cheaters using 3ed party programs to detect hidden characters. It didn't say there would be no stealth in the game, but maybe that is said elsewhere. It pretty much kills the rogue archetype, and In many games the ranger relies on stealth as well. In a game like PFO not having stealth is going to make it difficult if not impossible to play a rogue and perhaps a ranger as well.Since there will be no classes in PFO so if you want to play as a Pathfinder pen and paper Ranger all you need to do is to train the longbow skill, train the tame animal skill and train in a random melee weapon skill.<<forgive me if the issues I will bring now have been already adressed but I could not find it in hundreds of threads and posts>>
I'm very worried about this no class system in PFO, because it may be dificult for the newbie player to make the right decisions trough his char development to reach the results he wants as a char.
I hope there is some guiding system to help people to make the right decisions and pick the right skills. Some roles could (or should) require decisions that blocks certain skill path(s) for example. So if you want to play a paladin, for example, you should be guided to not take steps out this path while picking your skill.
Well, I think that the Paladin skills and spells should probably be omitted from PFO because Goblinworks Inc. can not hinder the player from committing evil deeds like stealing and player killing.
It would just be wrong to have players with Paladin skills in PFO who plays like brigands, thieves and outright murderers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will be no classes, but you DO get benefits for sticking to a specific group of class skills to match the PnP classes. They are not using the rules and classes of the game, but they are clearly trying to capture the *feel* of the game.
While I don't like stealth being not useful in the game, I don't think it makes playing a rogue useless. You still have access to the highest burst damage in the game thanks to sneak attack. You can still apply sneak attack reliably without stealth due to flanking and feinting. Rogues will still likely have more varied skills than anyone not focusing on crafting. They are still going to be the only ones who are capable of disarming traps in dungeons.
That said, I hope they can find a way to keep stealth in the game even in the face of cheaters. But you can make a very effective rogue in PnP without one rank in Hide. You should be able to do the same in PFO.
from the same blog:
*Rangers—masters of tracking. Knowledgeable, patient, and skilled hunters, these characters hound man, beast, and monster alike, gaining insight into the way of the predator.
Tracking may not even be in the game, you are already concerned about stealth, and things like archery comes under fighter - which leaves basically the 'insight' part. I think ranger should worry you more than rogue.
Seriously, I think GW will do a fine job here, but if not then the open skill system makes it extremely easy for you to pick only what you think is useful.
But I would love some crowdforging about what is (actually) the defining feature of each archetype.
Barbarians are raging, sure, but i don't believe people choose ranger in order to track animals in the forest (hint: i think they love their pets more).
I am a little worried about the ranger as well, especially since that is what I'm planning (going down that skill path). But I have faith in GW. If the ranger skills don't have tracking or any of those other skills I will extremely shocked. If rogue skills dont have stealth I would be even more shocked. Stealth is a staple for rogues in any fantasy/games
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Goblin Squad Member
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In Aion the rogue-like class (just forgot the name) is able to approach people without being detected (althoug it works better with lower class enemies). He walks slowly, can be detected deppending on the enemy abilities, but still be a very effective ability, and adds to the backstabing-like skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will be no classes, but you DO get benefits for sticking to a specific group of class skills to match the PnP classes. They are not using the rules and classes of the game, but they are clearly trying to capture the *feel* of the game.
While I don't like stealth being not useful in the game, I don't think it makes playing a rogue useless. You still have access to the highest burst damage in the game thanks to sneak attack. You can still apply sneak attack reliably without stealth due to flanking and feinting. Rogues will still likely have more varied skills than anyone not focusing on crafting. They are still going to be the only ones who are capable of disarming traps in dungeons.
That said, I hope they can find a way to keep stealth in the game even in the face of cheaters. But you can make a very effective rogue in PnP without one rank in Hide. You should be able to do the same in PFO.
Whilst your point is reasonable, the pidgeonholing of rogue into "high burst dps class" annoys the heck out of me. I don't want to play a 'high dps' build. I want to roleplay a thief.
This kind of number-crunching meta-gaming is what has absolutely driven the 'rpg' from mmorpg's. It has gone from characters to numbers. And that is something I desperately hope Paizo and GW are striving to correct.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think everyone is reading too much into that quote. If you look at his quote above I don't think he is saying there will NOT be stealth, more so there will not be stealth that keeps you hidden once you do something or are spotted.
IE once you are detected or do something that could be cause of you being detected you will break stealth ie the quote
In general, being "hidden" is an all-or-nothing proposition, where the server does not communicate any information about my position to your client, period. And when my "hidden" state ends, every client can access that information. Thus, as a game mechanic, its less than ideal and doesn't work the way people wish it would.
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<<forgive me if the issues I will bring now have been already adressed but I could not find it in hundreds of threads and posts>>I'm very worried about this no class system in PFO, because it may be dificult for the newbie player to make the right decisions trough his char development to reach the results he wants as a char.
I hope there is some guiding system to help people to make the right decisions and pick the right skills. Some roles could (or should) require decisions that blocks certain skill path(s) for example. So if you want to play a paladin, for example, you should be guided to not take steps out this path while picking your skill.
There will be. At any time you will have access to a screen that lists different builds. These builds will be outlines of skills you need to train to follow various paths like cleric, paladin etc.. (They might not use those names though)
If you click on one of the builds you will be shown which skills you need to train to follow that path. If your familiar with Eves certification system, PFO will be using a similar system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Which basically says "Hackers make this too hard to implement"
And I can't say how badly I disagree with GW on this one. Stealth for rogues is a core feature. You can't check things off because a very small minority hacks.
Let the hackers take away things like stealth and tracking and you are left with no game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think everyone is reading too much into that quote. If you look at his quote above I don't think he is saying there will NOT be stealth, more so there will not be stealth that keeps you hidden once you do something or are spotted.
IE once you are detected or do something that could be cause of you being detected you will break stealth ie the quote
In general, being "hidden" is an all-or-nothing proposition, where the server does not communicate any information about my position to your client, period. And when my "hidden" state ends, every client can access that information. Thus, as a game mechanic, its less than ideal and doesn't work the way people wish it would.
I second this notion. When I first read that blog post from Dancey, I didn't feel that he said "There will not be Stealth in this game". It was more of a musing on how other games have tried stealth mechanics and it did not work the way it was intended or was thwarted/abused by 3rd party programs and work will have to be done to improve it.
Just gotta have some faith at the moment. We still know very little as to how the exact game mechanics will work. Once they start doing blog posts about Rogues or Rangers in particular, and they give concrete proof that Stealth as a skill will be axed, then we can discuss the reason why it shouldn't.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Which basically says "Hackers make this too hard to implement"
And I can't say how badly I disagree with GW on this one. Stealth for rogues is a core feature. You can't check things off because a very small minority hacks.
Let the hackers take away things like stealth and tracking and you are left with no game.
If the consequences of hacking damage the game as much as griefing, and it is possible for the game to log anyone striking a steathed character they could not have detected, then you have the data to support action against hacking.
Just make it as clear to the players that 'hacking' is considered as reprehensible as griefing, how both types of activity will be identified and what the consequences will be.
I would also consider releasing an APR for acceptible methods of third party game enhancements to encourage those who would otherwise hack to apply themselves to sanctioned activities.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I expect there to be Stealth. I expect there to be an understanding that it can be hacked, so it's not really effective against Players. I expect it to be everything you'd want it to be against NPCs.
Based on Ryans comments I disagree on the bolded. To me it sounds like they plan to implement stealth so it can't be easily hacked IE You are stealthed and send no location data to other clients or you are not stealthed and you do send location data.
From his quotes it sounds like he was saying that in order to have a really deep stealth system with varying degrees of stealth, etc that is something easily hacked since if one person can see through your stealth even if the game still shows you stealthed to other people there are ways to hack that and display the data to everyone. This is what will not be available.
Again, this is my inference from the quotes on stealth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I expect there to be Stealth. I expect there to be an understanding that it can be hacked, so it's not really effective against Players. I expect it to be everything you'd want it to be against NPCs.Based on Ryans comments I disagree on the bolded. To me it sounds like they plan to implement stealth so it can't be easily hacked IE You are stealthed and send no location data to other clients or you are not stealthed and you do send location data.
From his quotes it sounds like he was saying that in order to have a really deep stealth system with varying degrees of stealth, etc that is something easily hacked since if one person can see through your stealth even if the game still shows you stealthed to other people there are ways to hack that and display the data to everyone. This is what will not be available.
Again, this is my inference from the quotes on stealth.
Below is the quote I think you're referring to. The way I read this, Ryan is explaining what would be necessary in order to make it impossible to hack the location data, and why this would make the system less than satisfactory to most people. He may be saying this is how they plan to implement it, but that's not the way I read it.
I still expect them to implement "traditional" stealth.
I would also encourage them to go ahead and make "stealth" characters show up for all players the same way they usually show up for other characters in the same group. This takes away any possibility that honest players will be at a disadvantage, but still allows for stealth versus NPCs and honest RPers.
I think all of that is compatible with the more concrete "hidden" system described below.
From Curious: Stealth Mechanics:
Remember:
If your client knows where my character is, even if your client is told not to show you, enough people will cheat that being hidden is meaningless - and in fact the non-cheaters then play at a significant disadvantage.
Reasons your client might need to know where my character is:
* I have magical effects on me that affect you.
* You have magical effects on you that affect me.
* You run in to me and collide (or vice-versa).
* A pet you control can sense me (blindsight, scent, tremorsense, etc.)Even stranger case: If there is a 3rd party involved who can see me, then that information can be passed to you and you will be able to know where I am as well. So being "hidden" needs to apply to every potential observer in the space, not just a subset.
You would have to know when I opened a door or triggered a trap, or attacked or was attacked by a PvE entity; all of which reveal my location.
In general, being "hidden" is an all-or-nothing proposition, where the server does not communicate any information about my position to your client, period. And when my "hidden" state ends, every client can access that information. Thus, as a game mechanic, its less than ideal and doesn't work the way people wish it would.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon, exactly.
Just to clarify for those who were not here to participate in the original discussion, some of us were asking for "improved stealth". By this we meant stealth that was improved over past MMOs.
Specifically, we wanted stealth to be judged on an observer by observer basis. A person with high perception might see a stealthed character, a person standing beside them with a low perception might not.
Ryan's response was concerning this idea only. He said it was too hackable and too much complexity to be worth the effort. He does say stealth should be in game and will be done as an all or nothing buff; a character would be either stealthed to everyone or no one. This is how it has been done in previous games.
So, to summarize, as Nihimon said, "traditional" stealth is planned to be in game.
____
As for the topic of "useless classes" in general, if at any time one feels their current direction of training is not as useful as they hoped, they are now free to change it without penalty.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well that sounds promising. I hope thats true, because I really want stealth.
That still leaves the issues I was talking about on a larger scale of class/skill/ability/trees being useless. As in copies of skills in different Archetypes, and using UMD to get around needing abilities/skills from other archetypes. If they want to have a classless system but capture the flavor of sticking to one "class", then there needs to be something unique. If that unique thing is only the capstone ability, thats fine but I'd like clarification. And if that is the case, then capstone is not something I care about, and Ill just mix and match as I see fit and just "call" myself a rogue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are no capstones anymore. Instead there will be a focus system that will give you a bouns if all the abilities you have slotted are of the same class. You can learn abilities from any class without penalty; you just don't get the focus bonus if you are having abilities from multiple classes slotted. The focus sytem will give the "unique feel" and will be an easy way to balance a role that is defined by a class that is being outclassed by someone who is multiclassed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another thing, UMD, could I just UMD all the rogue skills I need and maybe some healing and just be a fighter?
I just think all the class Archetypes should either be unique or have some unique skills and abilities.
For instance if you want to heal you need to skill up some cleric. Dont have cleric yet? Cant heal. Etc etc. There are no copies of skills on other classes.
Or it could be just 1 or 2 unique things that this class can do, and no other class and no amount of UMD can. Like maybe my Rogue cant stealth, and maybe you can UMD traps/disarming, and maybe other melee classes outclass me. But only a Rogue can use a steal ability or pick locks?
As was mentioned, there aren't really fixed classes. Well, there are, but your character isn't fixed to a given class or set of classes. Here is what I think you're saying: "I want to be a Thief, so that I get Stealth, and Lockpicking." How PFO will work: "I want to get Stealth, and Lockpicking, so that I can be a Thief."
As I understand it:
Archetype merits (e.g. "Level 1 Thief") will become available by meeting specific skill requirements, and achieving specific in-game goals. Merits will grant you additional bonuses/abilities. So it's certainly possible that particular Thief abilities may only be unlocked by getting the "Level 8 Thief" merit for example, but nobody is actually locked out from getting that if they spend the time training those skills and doing those achievements.
But then, they can actually say they ARE a Level 8 Thief, so really the statement "only Thieves get x" is true - it's just not a result of deciding during character creation that you want to be a Thief, it's an ongoing process of *proving* that you are a Thief, which anyone can do. Of course, if they've also got the "Level 15 Paladin" merit, then they may be unwilling to risk losing that to get the required achievements. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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From Roles and Role advantages (Capstones!):
So what we're proposing now is the idea of a "Dedication" or "Focus" bonus.
Essentially, whenever you only have feats from one role slotted (rounded out with generic feats that aren't role-specific), you'll gain a bonus to doing what that role is supposed to do. This bonus is pegged to making the pure build competitive with the best synergistic multi-role build, may shift over time as new synergies are discovered, and may scale up in power based on your level (becoming similar in power to tabletop's Capstone at 20th level if high-level synergies are really powerful).
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Tuoweit
I think maybe I am just not wording it well or something? People seem to be getting the impression that I dont understand a classless system. Thats simply not the case. What I am talking about has more to do with uniqueness and special bonuses for being dedicated. Something that makes it worth while and distinguishable to do so. like what Imbicatus is talking about on "focus" or I was talking about on "capstone".
And as I said if it truly is just a completely (COMPLETELY) open classless system, then the blogs mentioning the classes and the alluding to of uniqueness in the classless system is misleading.
If I can be anything/ do anything just as well (stat wise) no matter how or when I progress in a given direction, then I guess I dont have a problem with it, but then the classes should not have even been mentioned and instead use a more generic term like schools of knowledge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Greedalox, what does UMD mean, I can't seem to figure out what it means.
UMD = Use Magical Devices. It allows PC's access to some magical items even if their "class" doesn't normally have access to those, so a rogue using a wand, or a wizard using a clerical healing wand would require UMD to be trained.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Greedalox, what does UMD mean, I can't seem to figure out what it means.
I'm not Greedalox, but UMD is Use Magic Device, a class skill for Rogues and Bards in 3.5 that allows you to use class-only magic items for other classes by rolling vs a increacingly difficulty check based on the type of item.
It can allow rogues to fill the role of party healer if you have enough scrolls od heal x wounds among other things.