Goblinworks Game Designer
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There will absolutely be Stealth.
As Ryan pointed out, we just can't put any of the calculations on the client, it'll all have to be server-based. We'd like to do some more granular things with it than is normal for MMOs, but we need to get deeper into our server tech to work out what's possible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From Roles and Role advantages (Capstones!):
So what we're proposing now is the idea of a "Dedication" or "Focus" bonus.
Essentially, whenever you only have feats from one role slotted (rounded out with generic feats that aren't role-specific), you'll gain a bonus to doing what that role is supposed to do. This bonus is pegged to making the pure build competitive with the best synergistic multi-role build, may shift over time as new synergies are discovered, and may scale up in power based on your level (becoming similar in power to tabletop's Capstone at 20th level if high-level synergies are really powerful).
Ok so class dedication and uniquesness per class archetype is out. And build your Deck of Cards "class" bonus is in. This isnt what I was expecting, but it isnt bad either and actually caters more to a classless system.
So I can build up anything I want (exception for alignment stuff)regardless of time, order, etc. And have the option to build my deck of cards for multiclassing for variablity, or for "class" focus for spcialization. And freely change between the two how often I want based on how I build my deck of cards.
Is this a correct interpretation?
@DarkOne the Drow
Sorry for the confusion man, I can get a bit to much abbreviations and acronyms going sometimes. Too many MMOs. I have been known to use other MMOs lingo in the wrong forums sometimes too. And have people asking WTF are you talking about? LOL.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Tuoweit
I think maybe I am just not wording it well or something? People seem to be getting the impression that I dont understand a classless system. Thats simply not the case. What I am talking about has more to do with uniqueness and special bonuses for being dedicated. Something that makes it worth while and distinguishable to do so. like what Imbicatus is talking about on "focus" or I was talking about on "capstone".
And as I said if it truly is just a completely (COMPLETELY) open classless system, then the blogs mentioning the classes and the alluding to of uniqueness in the classless system is misleading.
If I can be anything/ do anything just as well (stat wise) no matter how or when I progress in a given direction, then I guess I dont have a problem with it, but then the classes should not have even been mentioned and instead use a more generic term like schools of knowledge.
Ah I see. Yes, from what we know it's the Focus system that provides that.
There's not really enough information out there (to my knowledge) about the skill/merit system to say how much impact that will have in helping define the classes, but within what has been said it's possible: For example (and I'm completely making this up), maybe learning Stealth AND Dagger AND Light Armor (plus whatever achievements) could grant you a merit that provides a Backstab damage bonus. The deeper you go into "traditional" Thief skills, the more Thief-like the merit bonuses could be.
So there's certainly ways within the classless system as proposed to reward focusing on a particular class and make it so that someone can't, say, be as good at Stealth as a fully focused Thief by only earning the Stealth merits (and let's not discuss whether that's a good idea for Stealth or not, it's just an example for illustration :). As to whether Goblinworks will do it that way, we don't know yet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... freely change between the two how often I want...
That's the only part I might quibble with. The exact mechanics of how easily you can change between them are still being designed, but in general, it's going to be something you have to be out-of-combat to do effectively, and you might need to be in-town or at a campsite.
It's important to keep in mind that gear in PFO will have keywords that determine which abilities that gear can be used for, so you'll have to have the right gear to make your build work, and it's unlikely you'll have a set of gear that allows you to quickly swap between two disparate but optimized builds.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon
That makes sense. I realize there might be a place to go to switch builds. I just meant that you can freely do it whenever you switch out skills/abilities/passives.
The gear and abilitiy dependency should be interesting as well. Thinking like you wouldnt wear plate to sneak and what not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wasnt really worried about this until recently. Have any of you ever played any MMOs where you unfortunately lvl'd a class that was useless or another class could do what you do but only better? This is what Im talking about.
Recently, thinking about the devs stance on lack of a "stealth" mechanic got me thinking about how that might effect my rogue. The description from the GW Blog says this though:
•Rogues—masters of stealth. Ever just one step ahead of danger, these characters bank on their cunning, skill, and charm to bend fate to their favor.
Did you catch that stealth part........ yet no stealth?
Another thing, UMD, could I just UMD all the rogue skills I need and maybe some healing and just be a fighter?
I just think all the class Archetypes should either be unique or have some unique skills and abilities.
For instance if you want to heal you need to skill up some cleric. Dont have cleric yet? Cant heal. Etc etc. There are no copies of skills on other classes.
Or it could be just 1 or 2 unique things that this class can do, and no other class and no amount of UMD can. Like maybe my Rogue cant stealth, and maybe you can UMD traps/disarming, and maybe other melee classes outclass me. But only a Rogue can use a steal ability or pick locks?
I think this is a subject, that won't be resolved, until we have a lot more information about skill training and the possible merit badges. The way I understand the current situation, is that there won't be a way to sneak from, lets say a mine, to a city of your choice. If players hack the game, the could detect you and just use fireballs to level the area.
What I expect to get, is some ability to use stealth in combat, this could be done in a lot of ways. Maybe you throw a smoke bomb and appear behind you target, ready to stab him, maybe something else.I wonder how something UMD will be translated into the online game, but I doubt that the math behind items like potions, scrolls, wands and staffs won't be changes quite a bit, so that this tactic might not be viable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... freely change between the two how often I want...That's the only part I might quibble with. The exact mechanics of how easily you can change between them are still being designed, but in general, it's going to be something you have to be out-of-combat to do effectively, and you might need to be in-town or at a campsite.
It's important to keep in mind that gear in PFO will have keywords that determine which abilities that gear can be used for, so you'll have to have the right gear to make your build work, and it's unlikely you'll have a set of gear that allows you to quickly swap between two disparate but optimized builds.
Yes, but if you plan for it, then that won't be such a limiting factor. For example, if you want to play a rapier or kukri master, thenyou a likely going to want to be a high-dex light armor user. Since everything a rogue has is a subset of what a fighter has as far as weapons and armor, you should be able to use feats that are from the fighter tree with your light weapons and still include things from the rogue list like sneak attack, feint, and evasion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Since everything a rogue has is a subset of what a fighter has as far as weapons and armor, you should be able to use feats that are from the fighter tree with your light weapons and still include things from the rogue list like sneak attack, feint, and evasion.
We obviously don't have any hard facts here, but I get the impression it will be more complex than this in PFO. The way I understand it, there will be a vast number of keywords that might appear on gear, and that the "feats" and abilities that you can use will be limited by the keywords on your gear. Just because a piece of gear is equally effective for a Fighter and a Rogue in PFRPG doesn't mean that will be the case in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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but i don't believe people choose ranger in order to track animals in the forest (hint: i think they love their pets more).
Actually I prefer giving the party my favored enemy bonus and putting a lot of arrows into things, but to each their own!
Also, Bards (minstrels? forget what that class was called) were very fun in LoTRO. Granted they were different from the Pathfinder take on bards, but it was a lot of fun to debuff and hurt enemies with the power of your lute.
Whew! I feel better!
/em vanish
Valandur vanishes from sight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will absolutely be Stealth.
As Ryan pointed out, we just can't put any of the calculations on the client, it'll all have to be server-based. We'd like to do some more granular things with it than is normal for MMOs, but we need to get deeper into our server tech to work out what's possible.
As a prospective thief, thanks Stephen, I very much appreciate the effort you guys seem to be making (even if I sound a little shrieky at times!)
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be honest I think people were expecting some level of granularity in the stealth system simply because the hide/spot equivalents will not be linear anyway. My understanding is our abilities will "jump" as you obtain the appropriate medals rather than be directly a function of skill points like PnP.
On a related note.
I assume disguise/spot checks will work in a similar way to hide?
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I was confused by the assertions that stealth would not be implemented. My conclusion was that stealth would be an all-or-nothing thing; either you were hidden from everybody, such that no other clients got your location information (making it impossible to hack that information).
I like the idea of stealth and smoke bomb type effects allowing short 'teleportation' effects, where you simply disappear and then appear wherever it is you 'sneak' to (behind an enemy being the default case).
There are also lots of other things that are reasonable for a rogue but not a fighter; rogues would specialIze in different weapon groups than fighters, for one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was confused by the assertions that stealth would not be implemented. My conclusion was that stealth would be an all-or-nothing thing; either you were hidden from everybody, such that no other clients got your location information (making it impossible to hack that information).
This issue actually interacts with the debate about collision. After all, with collision you could be blocked by another player and your client would have to know that.
I like the idea of stealth and smoke bomb type effects allowing short 'teleportation' effects, where you simply disappear and then appear wherever it is you 'sneak' to (behind an enemy being the default case).
I could be wrong, but I think Dragon Age 2 implemented this very well. (But did so many other things sooo wrong).
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Goblin Squad Member
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But I would love some crowdforging about what is (actually) the defining feature of each archetype.
To me:
Bard: Bardic Music = Back of the Party Parity (using continuous interesting performances to make interesting buffs happen to the interesting people) Everquest did this right. Bring back Twisting.
Barbarian: RAGE (+ Rage Powers. Momentary buffs paired with a momentary weakness. This is a 'mode class'. You're a sub-par fighter until you start packing on your 'rage mode'.)
Cleric: Channel Energy + Domains (Thematic skins that add a scaling mechanic to the way your cleric plays.)
Druid: Animal Companion + Wild Shape (Don't forget, though, that clerics of the animal domain and rangers also get animal companions, as do Paladins!)
Fighter: BEHOLD THE POWER OF FEATS: Customization and retraining should be the hallmark of this archetype. A 'cyclical slot' or something should be implemented, if actual 'feats' aren't used.
Monk: Whuppass on glass: monks are either 'flowing style' or 'crushing style'. Crushers deal two-weapon fighting style damage, Flowers can't be hit and knock people around with status effects.
Paladin: Hybrid Class - Fighter + Cleric (+ smite!)
Ranger: Hybrid Class - Fighter + Druid (+ favored enemy!)
Rogue: Sneak attack, sure, but Paizo has re-defined the rogue. ROGUE TRICKS are where it's at for this class! Like barbarian rage powers and fighter tricksiness, they should have a pool of modular stuff they can slurp out of.
Sorcerer: Magic, sure, but all about the bloodline. Look at ALL the sorcerer archetypes.
Wizard: Majik Pahwerz. Wizards are all about the spells. They have schools, too, usually, but really... it's about the spells.
Later on, maybe we'll see Alchemists (Bombs), Cavaliers (Teamwork), Magus (Hybrid fighter/mage, spellstrike), Witches (Spells + Hexes, same as rage powers and rogue tricks), Gunslingers (... >.>), Summoners (All about the Eidolon), Oracles (Spells + Mystery), and Inquisitors (JUDGEMENTs).
