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I’ve noticed some kinda odd things about PFS play. Not saying I have spent a lot of time on PFS by any stretch of the imagination. But some of it seems really consistent.
I’m curious as to whether they are universal to PFS play or just my area.
- Almost never see any wizards being played. I have heard it just becomes too expensive to fill up your spell books. Since you can’t copy spells off each other, out of books that are looted, or off found scrolls. They all have to be bought at full price. I have read that players actually can copy off of other players, but no one seems to understand/believe that. So it may be partly based on a misunderstanding. But I have seen a total of exactly 1 wizard at all of the tables for any of the events I have attended.
- Very few clerics being played. Not quite as rare as wizards, but still uncommon. And I’m not sure why. Reading these boards it seems like I should be seeing quite a few clerics. Most people agree they are better and more fun than in 3.5e DnD. They are always well received. Whenever I have played a pregen, everyone encourages me to play the cleric. It always contributed well to the success of the primary mission. Often seems to have an easier time completing the faction mission than many of the other PC’s. But I’ve only seen 3 clerics (one of those died mid mission).
- Many more neutral than good PC’s. In the home games I’ve been at I would guesstimate at least 2/3 were a good alignment. Most seem to want to be the hero and play the good guy. At PFS events I would say the ratio is somewhere between 2/3 and 5/6 neutral PC’s. I am often the only ‘good’ PC at the table. Sometimes there is another ‘good’ guy. Very rarely have there been more than 2 of us at a table. A couple people have said the concept of the ‘Pathfinder Organization’ just seems more neutral than good. But it kinda surprised me.
- Lots of rogues. I read constantly on these boards that rogues are horrible, weak, a trap, can’t even do their thing as well as other classes, etc… Seems like no one would want to play one (at least not single class). But almost every time I sit at a table there is 1 and often 2 rogues. They seem to have contributed about average to completing the mission and seem to have an easier time than most completing their faction mission.
- Really specialized builds with no breadth of skills or capabilities. After reading these boards talking about PFS characters or even just playing in a few PFS games, it seems odd that people would do that. People know: The primary mission will often require some sneaking, investigating, talking, magic, healing, etc… The faction missions usually require some social skills. You can not count on a ‘face’ PC being present and taking care of that stuff for you. You can not count on a healer being present to cure you or remove conditions. You can not count on a blaster being present to flatten the swarms or ghosts. There are a multitude of threads that tell everyone to buy a click stick, some potions, acids, as well as put at least a few points in social skills to complete mission. But I still see PC’s specialized in only one activity (ex shooting guns) with no gear except best weapon and protections. No skills except perception and day job. Some mission, they contribute very little (or are even a minus), are at huge risk, have difficulty completing their faction missions. I actually expected to see mostly well rounded, well equipped, socially capable characters. I don’t think I have been.
What do you guys think? Does this match your experience or is it just my local?
Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Central & West
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Almost never see any wizards being played. I have heard it just becomes too expensive to fill up your spell books. Since you can’t copy spells off each other, out of books that are looted, or off found scrolls. They all have to be bought at full price. I have read that players actually can copy off of other players, but no one seems to understand/believe that. So it may be partly based on a misunderstanding. But I have seen a total of exactly 1 wizard at all of the tables for any of the events I have attended.
It tends to be regional, I think. We've got about 5-6 wizards running around wreaking havoc in my area.
As far as cost, I suggest you check out this FAQ. You can copy off of a party wizard, or from scrolls found during adventure.Very few clerics being played. Not quite as rare as wizards, but still uncommon. And I’m not sure why. Reading these boards it seems like I should be seeing quite a few clerics. Most people agree they are better and more fun than in 3.5e DnD. They are always well received. Whenever I have played a pregen, everyone encourages me to play the cleric. It always contributed well to the success of the primary mission. Often seems to have an easier time completing the faction mission than many of the other PC’s. But I’ve only seen 3 clerics (one of those died mid mission).
I've seen many people want to play a cleric when they start out. Some that do are soon turned off when they realized that some players expected to "stand there and heal me if I go down" and that's it. I have seen many a player switch to classes like Ranger, Inquisitors and Druids as a way to be a healing divine caster without the "Healbot" expectation.
Many more neutral than good PC’s. In the home games I’ve been at I would guesstimate at least 2/3 were a good alignment. Most seem to want to be the hero and play the good guy. At PFS events I would say the ratio is somewhere between 2/3 and 5/6 neutral PC’s. I am often the only ‘good’ PC at the table. Sometimes there is another ‘good’ guy. Very rarely have there been more than 2 of us at a table. A couple people have said the concept of the ‘Pathfinder Organization’ just seems more neutral than good. But it kinda surprised me.
While not an accusation of munchkining, Neutral has always been a powerful alignment. It gets you some immunity to some spells and you can roleplay without having to feel restricted to your alignment.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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• Almost never see any wizards being played.
PC wizards can copy spells as normal from other PCs' spellbooks, looted spellbooks, and looted scrolls. Additionally, the FAQ on the subject was recently changed so that you can "shop" for new spells using the prices in the CRB instead of having to buy a scroll and scribe from that.
That said, I haven't seen many wizards locally either. Come to think of it, not many straight-casters at all. Seems most folks want to be at least a little martial. Perhaps our players lack patience through the early levels where being a devoted caster can be dicey?
• Very few clerics being played.
Not a lot around here, either. I imagine it's because they're not flashy, and because there's still a prejudice that you have to play a "healer". Everyone wants one at the table, but only if it's played by someone else (hence "the Kyra effect").
Which is really sad, because I played my cleric in Feast of Ravenmoor, and I was the primary tank, DPR, and face; but I barely did any healing at all (aside from some end-of-session condition removal).
• Many more neutral than good PC’s.
Dunno on this one; alignments don't get verbalized much, you know? There could be a fear of "If I'm good, people will tell me how to roleplay/I won't be allowed to deal lethal damage/I'll face ridiculous restrictions on what I can do". Everyone's heard the horror stories of the GM who calls a Coup de Grace an evil act... but only if a good PC is doing it. (Neutral PCs never seem to get shifted to Evil for it.)
On the other hand, being not-good might just feel edgy or exciting. (Sometimes it seems like "neutral" means "bad boy". Why can't "neutral" mean "I'm just an ordinary guy"?)
• Lots of rogues.
We see some around here. Doesn't strike me as "lots", but we have 'em. You get some ninjas here as well.
• Really specialized builds with no breadth of skills or capabilities.
Hard to tell. If there is a face (for instance), and they're always proactive in stepping forward to handle social situations, you don't really know whether the other five people's social skills are abysmal or "I'm capable, but this guy's a specialist so let's just let him do it." All I know is that *I* like to build well-rounded PCs. But most people? Dunno, unless they make a point of proactively roleplaying their weaknesses.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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As has been stated, the answers to these questions vary from region to region. The best I can do is answer for my local base.
1. Wizards? We have two higher level wizards and about 3-4 lower level ones (1-5). They do just as good, if not better, than the oracle, witch, and sorcerer playerbase.
2. Clerics? We have tons of clerics. There's two level 12 clerics, two 7+ clerics, and a half-dozen others. Some center on healing, other protecting, another on self-buffing and damage, and one on negative channeling. A very diverse group from one class.
3. Alignment? Not a ton of Neutrality, but definitely more chaotic and neutral than lawful. Lots of our players like "coloring outside the lines" when it comes to the law.
4. Rogues? We have three rogues that are level 7+, but aside from that -- rogues are underplayed.
5. Specialized builds? Jiggy has the right of it. That's how I'd phrase it.
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- Wizards
Note that the changes David point to came into effect last week and are not retroactive, so until very recently, those costs were definitely a factor. Wizards also suffer from survivability at low levels, which means a) they often don't make it and b) people whose wizards have died tend to stop making wizards.
Personally, I just really don't like spell memorization and far prefer spontaneous casters.
- Clerics
Being a cleric is, unfortunately, a pretty thankless job. I brought my battle oracle to my last PFS game and the party said "oh, good, now we have a healer," and expected me to stay back and top them off during each combat encounter.
- Neutral
The PFS is a pretty neutral entity. A lot of the faction, and even main missions are ethically questionable for good characters.
- Rogues
The boards here are not representative of the greater PFS population. That said, in my experience, a lot of people play Rogues early on, discover how difficult stealth is in PF, and then start a new character.
- Specialists
I have noticed that there is a certain sub-type of PF player who really needs control one or more aspects of the game. So they pump up their AC, or their Attack, or Diplomacy, or whatever, so they have something they can almost never fail when attempting. It does often come at the expense of any kind of versatility, but that's a choice they're making.
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I think this varies heavily by region and group. I really haven't seen many rogues. Sorcerers do seem more common than wizards - I think people just prefer spontaneous casting. Same for oracles and clerics.
There do seem to be a lot of heavy hitting damage dealers who don't have much in the way of other abilities. I did that with my first PFS PC, because I was new to the game, returning after a 20 year hiatus from RPGs, so I figured a big, dumb fighter type would be easy to play while I learn. Since them, I've gone for variety and more balance in my PCs.
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Of my PFS PCs, my favorite is my rogue (pirate archetype)...she's fairly competent in combat (with TWF, and Improved Feint, she can do a fair amount of damage, even without stealth), and she's an outstanding skill-monkey, both on rogue-ish skills and social skills. Whenever I play her, it seems like I wind up being able to contribute to the party in a way no one else can. Plus, she's just a ton of fun to role-play. :-)
That said, I see very, very few rogues in general -- I can probably the ones I've see on one hand.
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Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Central & West
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Note that the changes David point to came into effect last week and are not retroactive, so until very recently, those costs were definitely a factor.[
While costs were always definitely a factor, I believe the change that happened a week or so ago is that you can copy from NPC casters now for a fee as well, as according to the CRB. Wizards have been able to copy off of partymates for a while, as long as you paid the appropriate ink cost. However, most parties seem to avoid having two wizards together.
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+1 for the specialization. I got to overhear a conversation between a dwarven fighter and a halfling cavalier, both of whom were 100% optimized for combat...
"With a lot of these faction missons, you really need someone with diplomacy. You're basically screwed sometimes if you don't have that. You just have to get lucky".
You know who's at your table, 100% of the time? You. It didn't even occure to these two that THEY could be the person making the diplomacy check, or any other kind of skill check.
I literally was one roll away from having my character freeze to death when the ranger finally made a survival check. He was So built for archery damage, that he basically had no other way to contribute to the party.
In a game where there's a WIDe variety of challenges, and the composition of the table can change every four hours, I'd think people would make more versatile characters. But in my area, I'm wrong.
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Wizards are more time intensive and fiddly than the average class. Many people don’t want do deal with that, and that’s fine. It’s their choice. (I don’t play Wizards.)
The comment on Clerics has been brought up before. After a prior conversation I took a tally on the characters I had seen hit the table in about 20 sessions and you know what? Clerics were the most played class I saw in those sessions. I was actually a little surprised. (I play a Cleric.)
For all the talk on the Rogue power curve, they are a very versatile class. They have a lot of skills for scenarios that use a lot of skills, and they can do a lot of different things. Such a malleable class is going to appeal to a wide variety of character concepts. (I also have a Rogue.)
Specialized characters are frankly fun to build mechanically. There is something about optimizing to do a specific thing. It takes a little time for some players to realize that they need to be well rounded.
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Rogues do make for excellent skill characters, although I find there is little they can do that a Bard or Ranger can't. The problem I see most often is that new players make a rogue, thinking it will do comparable damage to a fighter. Once they learn that's rarely the case, they get disillusioned and seek out other classes.
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Damage is all about modifiers, but that is a separate subject.
I am very knowledgeable about Sorcerers, they are my specialty. They are pretty simple, like the Black Mage from FF1. I know X spells and have can cast them Y times, easy peasy. Wizards... I struggle with wizards because I enjoy being able to mass produce any spell I know. I get antsy and anxious when I look over a spell list and have to choose a certain amount to prepare, thinking to myself "What if my Save or Die spell is resisted? I can't cast it again and have enough room for this utility spell. AAHHH!"
Clerics are relatively similar. You can spontaneously cast a heal spell (given you aren't a negative channeler) but you lose a buff or debuff. I hate having to choose which one to sacrifice!
Alignment, meh.
As for rogues... I've played a mod with a Rogue Shadow Dancer that had this AWESOME character concept in his head. I mean this guy really dug his character. But in an ENTIRE module he made only stealth checks and shot 1 arrow (that had no damage modifer!) Then again I've played with a rogue who got up to 41 AC and had a +28ish damage modifier on all his attacks who could take a 1 and find/disable any trap and had most knowledges. The class can easily be broken, but you just need to know how (I mean a fighter can do that damage but they don't get 7+int skill points!)
As for specialists, I find it the starting point for people's characters. They have a concept, an old man who knows everything, a young woman who seduces and steals, a gnome who just wants to blow things up and nothing else. This mental image defines their character. Sure, the character can use some more depth but depth is hard to add for most people, so they stick to what they are comfortable with.
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I can tell you one thing about playing a cleric.
Specialist healer (not to be confused with primary healer) is very dull.
There is only one exception, and that's if nobody else at your table can heal AND you're playing a scenario tough enough to warrant a lot of in-combat healing. That is a very rare combination.
Divine casting isn't terrible, but arcane casting is almost always better. The exception is for non-cleric casting: druid, paladin, inquisitor and ranger spells are all more interesting than the plain jane divine spells that clerics get. The only caveat is that your party will be immensely thankful when you're the only guy with the restoration and remove blindness/disease/whatever spells.
Commonplace in PFS, moreso than other campaigns, is the unspoken rule that you're responsible for your own healing and that 2 prestige will buy you a wand of Cure Light Wounds or Infernal Healing. Between these two spells, there is a healer in almost every other class.
So anyone playing a cleric has to have a good dual role at being good at doing something else in combat too, and they're going to end up being the worst at doing what they do than both a specialist healer cleric, or a non-cleric doing whatever else they're trying to be.
The one exception to that is to be a negative channelling cleric where you get your party killed. Clerics can be great at that.
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Wizards & Clerics: Locally it seems there is a fantastic preference for spontaneous casters. The general consensus seems to be "if I'm only going to prepare these few spells anyway, I may as well cast they more times per day."
Rogues: We have plenty of rogues here, though more often than not only a 1-2 level dip for whatever it is that player is after (skill points, evasion, etc.)
Over specialization: I see this often enough I'd dare to say it's a rare character that isn't. A few hard-core examples that come to mind are a number of sorcerers specifically geared toward a specific spell (some managing to achieve a DC 22+ for it as early as first level), a "fighter" specifically geared for cleaving (and absolutely nothing else, and he better hope that first attack hits) and a healbot oracle (to the point of not even carrying a weapon).
To me, this kind of specialization is bad, because in situations where their "trick" can't come into play they are just dead weight, and half the time their trick can come into play it's not the best option which could have been available.
Of course, it's also frustratingly fun to sit down at a table full of generalists as everybody tries to do everything, and succeeds.
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My 2cp,
Wizards and Clerics do require a lot of paperwork. Cause you have to keep up with spells, special abilities, domain powers for clerics and so I can see a lot of people not necessarily playing them because many people do not like the bookkeeping that comes attached.
I would also like to state, that what may be the norm now, may not be the norm 6-8 months from now. This is the nature of the campaign beast where you always have an influx of players coming in and out. For example, in my area a year ago I had nothing but fighters, master summoners and synthesist summoners. With time, (and two archetypes becoming banned) players began to swap out and rotate characters which now includes, sorcerers, rogues, bards and clerics. So give it time, and just go with the flow and make the most of what you got.
As long as you have fun, it shouldn't matter what classes you bring to the table.
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I haven't played THAT much but i have played with a few different groups. I think a lot of your assesments are spot on.
Almost never see any wizards being played.
There's a few reasons for this.
1) Which has been addressed, is that given the expense of adding spells, you could afford to know barely more than a sorcerer. The ability to crib notes off of a central pathfinder library has dented that somewhat.
2) PFS starts at first level. Being a first level wizard SUCKS. You've probably got 2 color sprays and you're done for the day. I mean you can shoot that acid ray if you want, but at an effective -8 you're still not hitting even a touch ac.
3) In most campaigns, you know where the party is going. If your party decides to investigate the gnoll mountains , you load up on charm person and color spray. If you're going to Ghasty's haunted house of undead fun and excitement you ditch those spells.
In PFS your characters are often given no time to prepare. This cuts down on the usefulness of a wizards spell preparation method.
Very few clerics being played.
1) Given PFS high magic item availability, they're not as necessary as they might be in a home game.
2) Being a support character for your friend Bob's barbarian is kinda meh to start with. Being a support character for John "you've never seen before" McSlashyslash isn't even that fulfilling.
Many more neutral than good PC’s.
A lot of home games have a heroic bent to them for motivation, and whap players for trying to be eeevil.
You also get pretty penalized for being good in pfs. Walking face first into blasphemies and unholy words is never fun.
Some of the factions tend to encourage.. less than moral behavior.
Lots of rogues.
Might be the type of player thats attracted to organized play.
Really specialized builds with no breadth of skills or capabilities.
The above x2.
Some people see it as (and a number of scenarios are written along the lines of) kill everything and level up.
The primary mission will often require some sneaking, investigating, talking, magic, healing, etc… The faction missions usually require some social skills.
Yes, but it will rarely require all of that from any one particular player. So people have a "not it" approach towards some of those skills, or people grab 1-2 of them.
There are a multitude of threads that tell everyone to buy a click stick, some potions, acids, as well as put at least a few points in social skills to complete mission.
A well rounded PARTY is required, but a well rounded character is not. Sometimes a character gets so well rounded they're a bowling ball: ie there's no point to them.
Usually, booger pickers wallfloweresque charisma score impacts Face's diplomacy check about as much as Sir Clanksalot's desk influences sneaky's open locks.
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From PFS in St Louis:
1) Wizards - we have quite a few high level wizards running around. Because you can share spells this means that most of us in St Louis have large spell books that usually have spells we can't even cast yet. My lvl 8 Bloatmage knows 7 lvl 6 spells and 2 lvl 7 spells already. We try to get the casters to keep concise spell books that we can pass around the table. This way copying spells runs smoothly and doesn't disrupt the flow of the game.
2) Clerics - I don't see to many of them around, but we do have a couple high lvl clerics. Our group seems to be on a life oracle kick at the moment so this may fill the void. Anyone else see class fads that rise and fade?
3) Neutral PCs - I haven't noticed a vast difference among our group. If anything our PFS group tends to play more lawful/neutral good than I see in a homegame. YMMV.
4) Rogues - Don't see may. We have a couple of them around somewhere but I have never sat down with 2 at a table.
5) Specialization - I think this comes from home gaming where you can sit down and really hash out the roles before adventuring. This is also propagated through the boards. You rarely see a generalist style character build posted. It's always min/max with lots of flaws that will be filled in by the next min/max guy at the table. There is some specialization among characters but most of the people I have played with broaden their characters through items and skills. You have to push the generalist mentality among the players. Most of my characters are specialized in doing one thing great but are setup to be ok at doing most other things. Whose got a lvl 12 barbarian with full ranks in linguistics, handle animal, survival, and UMD.....this guy.
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I can tell you one thing about playing a cleric.
I can tell you one thing about playing a cleric – clerics are generalists, and it takes a fair bit more skill to build a powerful generalist than it does to build a powerful specialist. Those who can do the latter but not the former tend to mistakenly attribute the difference to there being something wrong with the class. Meanwhile, the rest of us are busy enjoying our ability to do just about everything.
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There are a few lvl 7 scrolls handed out in scenarios. Specifically magnificent mansion and greater teleport. I got Magnificent mansion from a fellow wizard and actually played in the scenario that gave greater teleport. My bloatmage is all about the acquisition of power and so even though I can't cast them yet I spent the money to scribe them.
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1. Wizards - Locally I see an about average number of wizards compared to the ratio of how many classes there are, so don't really experience this.
2. Clerics - Locally I see actually far more than the fair share of clerics, so I don't experience this either.
3. Alignment - Neutral is awesome. It allows you to be shady at times and good at times, and it allows you to justify a lot of things that your character would do. It also makes you less vulnerable to Unholy Smite.
4. Rogues - I actually see less than average amount of rogues locally, go figure. I do see about the fair share of ninjas, though.
5. Specialization - I don't see anything wrong with making a specialist. In fact, you can have your "thing" that works most of the time, and then for times where your "thing" doesn't work, have items that help alleviate that. Most situations can be dealt with by most characters by having a certain item. There are, of course, exceptions, but that's what teammates are for. A lot of veteran players will spend money on consumables that help them with their characters' weaknesses.
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5. Specialization - I don't see anything wrong with making a specialist. In fact, you can have your "thing" that works most of the time, and then for times where your "thing" doesn't work, have items that help alleviate that. Most situations can be dealt with by most characters by having a certain item. There are, of course, exceptions, but that's what teammates are for. A lot of veteran players will spend money on consumables that help them with their characters' weaknesses.
This is fine in theory, but too often I see that "that's what teammates are for" means "someone should be doing this for me."
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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There are a few lvl 7 scrolls handed out in scenarios. Specifically magnificent mansion and greater teleport. I got Magnificent mansion from a fellow wizard and actually played in the scenario that gave greater teleport. My bloatmage is all about the acquisition of power and so even though I can't cast them yet I spent the money to scribe them.
EDIT - I found this!
Finally, scrolls of spells of 7th level or higher are not permitted unless you gain access to them on a Chronicle sheet specifically listing them.
So if you get them on a sheet, you're good to copy/buy!
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Just to add to that. You can also gain access to the spells by copying the spellbook of a fellow player that gained access to the spell legally. The rule you quoted only applies to the purchasing of scrolls. Note: I would also assume that with the current FAQ regarding copying NPC spells for a fee that this restriction would apply to that also.
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... and then for times where your "thing" doesn't work, have items that help alleviate that. Most situations can be dealt with by most characters by having a certain item. There are, of course, exceptions, but that's what teammates are for. A lot of veteran players will spend money on consumables that help them with their characters' weaknesses.
What I am seeing is supposedly long time PFS players (multiple characters at level 5+) that don't buy any items to help in other situations. No wand of cure lt, no potion of lesser restoration, no potion of comprehend lang, etc... All they have is their ultimate pointy stick. Then everything left is spent on protections or saved for a better pointy stick.
Many times I have seen several of these PC's at a table, such that NO ONE has the ability to read the clue, persuade the source, etc...
Additionally, many of the faction missions are apprently secretive and you are not supposed to let anyone else know about them. So how can you have a teammate help?
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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... and then for times where your "thing" doesn't work, have items that help alleviate that. Most situations can be dealt with by most characters by having a certain item. There are, of course, exceptions, but that's what teammates are for. A lot of veteran players will spend money on consumables that help them with their characters' weaknesses.What I am seeing is supposedly long time PFS players (multiple characters at level 5+) that don't buy any items to help in other situations. No wand of cure lt, no potion of lesser restoration, no potion of comprehend lang, etc... All they have is their ultimate pointy stick. Then everything left is spent on protections or saved for a better pointy stick.
Many times I have seen several of these PC's at a table, such that NO ONE has the ability to read the clue, persuade the source, etc...
Direct them to this blog post by Mike. It lists some excellent adventuring gear (the comments below list more).
If it's not just an ignorance thing, and your players are actually disinclined to help one another, direct them to the Field Guide, where it outlines what is expected of a pathfinder -- not the least of which is akin to that scout adage, "be prepared." If you present it as, "this will make you more powerful," they may be more inclined to help out.
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Almost never see any wizards being played.
Agreed. I can only think of two in metro Denver. Sorcerers are pretty common. In addition to the reasons already sighted, I'd say the additional 'bloodline' flavors given to Sorcerers along with the ease of play has made them funner, and this change from 3.5 has reduced the numbers of Wizards.
Very few clerics being played. Not quite as rare as wizards, but still uncommon.
Agreed, for reasons already sighted, though they are not rare. However, one thing that has surprised me is the lack of Oracles. I think they are the second rarest class after Cavilers. Despite the fact that they don't suffer from quite as much pressure to be heal bots.
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Many more neutral than good PC’s. In the home games I’ve been at I would guesstimate at least 2/3 were a good alignment.
I'd say it's about 50/50. However as others have pointed out it's hard to tell because people don't advertise it a lot.
Yes, but on the other hand I see them more at low level tables. I think a lot of players switch at some point.Lots of rogues.
•Really specialized builds with no breadth of skills or capabilities. After reading these boards talking about PFS characters or even just playing in a few PFS games, it seems odd that people would do that. People know: The primary mission will often require some sneaking, investigating, talking, magic, healing, etc… The faction missions usually require some social skills. You can not count on a ‘face’ PC being present and taking care of that stuff for you.
I think this becomes less and less of a problem as players become more experienced with the dynamics of PFS. Also, specialization does not alway mean uselessness in other areas. I had a table recently were a first level character had no ranged weapons and complained about a levitating foe. Then I asked him how much gold he had. He said 55gp. I said "a crossbow costs 35 gp, you can correct that after the adventure."
Needless to say, they didn't make the mistake again, and at higher levels, few people make this mistake.
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What I am seeing is supposedly long time PFS players (multiple characters at level 5+) that don't buy any items to help in other situations. No wand of cure lt, no potion of lesser restoration, no potion of comprehend lang, etc... All they have is their ultimate pointy stick. Then everything left is spent on protections or saved for a better pointy stick.
This isn't the kind of player I'm talking about. I tell everyone to get some curatives, etc. If I have to use my own, I bug them about it EVERY TIME I have to use mine until the message gets drilled into their head. Like I said, many veterans players already get their consumables.
Additionally, many of the faction missions are apprently secretive and you are not supposed to let anyone else know about them. So how can you have a teammate help?
Then you fail the faction mission. It's not exactly the end of the world. Some characters aren't going to be able to make some of their faction missions, and some of them are harder than others for certain characters. I've been in a 5-9 where it required a DC 40 diplomacy apparently for the faction mission (it wasn't mine, so I don't remember all the details). Unless you are pretty specialized in it, you're going to fail it. One time you have to do a sleight of hand check, one time you have to do a strength check, one time you have to sense motive...there's no way you're going to tell me you are prepared to make a DC 20 check in every single skill.
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Agreed, for reasons already sighted, though they are not rare. However, one thing that has surprised me is the lack of Oracles. I think they are the second rarest class after Cavilers. Despite the fact that they don't suffer from quite as much pressure to be heal bots.
I laughed a bit at this one, because we have SO many oracles in GA pfs... from top of my head at least one of each:
Lore (one pure, one multiclass)Life (2x now, with my own)
Bones
Heavens
Battle
Metal
Fire
Nature
Granted, Yiroep accounts for a large number of those... (I kid, I kid)
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Granted, Yiroep accounts for a large number of those... (I kid, I kid)
Actually, you didn't include my Dark Tapestry and the fact that I also technically have a Heavens oracle (although he's mostly sorcerer). :p
(and planning a Nature and Outer Rifts one...as well as playing a Juju one in a particular home game)
...I love oracles.
In our area, we rarely see gunslingers, magi, summoners (lately at least), and bards.
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PC wizards can copy spells as normal from other PCs' spellbooks, looted spellbooks, and looted scrolls. Additionally, the FAQ on the subject was recently changed so that you can "shop" for new spells using the prices in the CRB instead of having to buy a scroll and scribe from that.
As a player of a new Wizard...huh? Please tell me how! I don't see where the FAQ says that, unless it's at the end there where it says under very rare circumstances.
On topic: in my gaming community,
1. Wizards. Yes. In my small gaming community I am playing the only Wizard. Also the only Witch.
2. Clerics. Yes also. One player was playing a Cleric briefly which he changed for a Sorceror. Another has a multiclasses Cleric/Barbarian. I made a Cleric myself but haven't played him yet.
3. Alignments. Definitely skewed towards Neutral, but I agree that the nature of the campaign leads players in that direction.
4. Rogues. Yes also. Beginning players go there. We have a few hereabouts and a Ninja or two.
5. Specialized builds. Yes. Sort of, if you count Fighters, Rangers and Barbarians, of which we have many. The more skill-based characters are a little lacking.
Over all I have seen a real bias towards melee with a few archery specialists. The divine casters seem to be few and far between and the arcane ones tend to be Sorcerous rather than Wizardly. I have as yet not seen any Oracles, Inquisitors, Alchemists, Cavaliers, Samurai, Gunslingers, or Druids.
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As a player of a new Wizard...huh? Please tell me how! I don't see where the FAQ says that, unless it's at the end there where it says under very rare circumstances.
PC wizards can copy spells as normal from other PCs' spellbooks, looted spellbooks, and looted scrolls. Additionally, the FAQ on the subject was recently changed so that you can "shop" for new spells using the prices in the CRB instead of having to buy a scroll and scribe from that.
Mike is planning to remove the "rare" line when he's back in the office after a convention, if I understood correctly.
Aside from that, look in the Core Rulebook, Magic chapter, under (if memory serves) the heading "Arcane Magical Writings" and subheading of "Adding Spells to a Spellbook".
You get things like the cost of the magical ink to scribe a new spell into your spellbook, the Spellcraft DC to scribe it, and so forth. Read that, as the FAQ mostly just clarifies that things work like in the CRB.
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As a player of a new Wizard...huh? Please tell me how! I don't see where the FAQ says that, unless it's at the end there where it says under very rare circumstances.
PC wizards can copy spells as normal from other PCs' spellbooks, looted spellbooks, and looted scrolls. Additionally, the FAQ on the subject was recently changed so that you can "shop" for new spells using the prices in the CRB instead of having to buy a scroll and scribe from that.
Mike is planning to remove the "rare" line when he's back in the office after a convention, if I understood correctly.
Aside from that, look in the Core Rulebook, Magic chapter, under (if memory serves) the heading "Arcane Magical Writings" and subheading of "Adding Spells to a Spellbook".
You get things like the cost of the magical ink to scribe a new spell into your spellbook, the Spellcraft DC to scribe it, and so forth. Read that, as the FAQ mostly just clarifies that things work like in the CRB.
As a Wizard, I will be able to scribe new spells, for example a level 1 spell for 10gp (the cost of scribing) plus 5gp (half the cost to scribe as a fee) for a total of 15gp? Any time before or after a scenario? Any and all spells? Or do I have to have met a specific NPC in a scenario and scribe what they have in their spellbook?
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As a Wizard, I will be able to scribe new spells, for example a level 1 spell for 10gp (the cost of scribing) plus 5gp (half the cost to scribe as a fee) for a total of 15gp? Any time before or after a scenario? Any and all spells? Or do I have to have met a specific NPC in a scenario and scribe what they have in their spellbook?
Emphasis mine.
Sounds correct to me. Still doesn't help the wizard as much as crafting skills, but it's a great, great boon to the wizard.
It may be the aspect of not knowing who you are playing with that leads to wizards being less. You have no idea what is going to happen. While that is true for homebrew games. you can guess what is going to happen later on.
Socerors are more adaptable.
It may also be, if you have other books, the wizard may not be as fun compared to an oracle or a witch.
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... A well rounded PARTY is required, but a well rounded character is not. Sometimes a character gets so well rounded they're a bowling ball: ie there's no point to them.
Usually, booger pickers wallfloweresque charisma score impacts Face's diplomacy check about as much as Sir Clanksalot's desk influences sneaky's open locks. ...
I don't think I have ever sat at a "well rounded party" in PFS. There has always been gaps and concentrations of skills. But sometimes the gaps are getting too large.
For example: earlier this month, I sat at a table kinda late. I had the lowest level PC there, but if I hadn't shown up, I think they would have failed. My lv 2 sorc is actually going for some social skills since he has a high charisma. But he was my first PFS char and doesn't have a high int for lots of skills. So he is just starting to put 1 point into bluff, diplomacy, etc... The mission was to sneak/bluff in find and steal some papers.
My sorc has 1 point in bluff and 1 in diplomacy. Only one other character had a single point in diplomacy. None had anything in bluff. Of the others, 2 were willing to spend a little bit of cash on potions of disguise self and 2 were not. I used up about half the mission pay in scrolls. There were 2 trap/fights that were very easy for our dps heavy group. But there were many bluff, sense motive, linguistics, diplomacy, and knowledge checks. We got very lucky with several rolls of 17+ which was the only way we succeeded.
If each of the other characters had even just a point or two in some of these other skills OR been willing to purchase the magic items to help, we could have succeeded by plan and action rather than just luck of the dice.
... Direct them to this blog post by Mike. It lists some excellent adventuring gear (the comments below list more).
If it's not just an ignorance thing, and your players are actually disinclined to help one another, direct them to the Field Guide, where it outlines what is expected of a pathfinder -- not the least of which is akin to that scout adage, "be prepared." If you present it as, "this will make you more powerful," they may be more inclined to help out.
I'm not sure it is "disinclined to help" as much as it is a firmly entrenched role. "My job is put holes in things. If the situation doesn't call for putting holes in things, I'm not involved." I think they are still stuck on thinking that there should and WILL be someone else in the group to fill all the major roles.
With all the stuff written and talked about it, I would have thought more of them would have realized that plan doesn’t work as well in PFS as in a regular home game.|
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... Direct them to this blog post by Mike. It lists some excellent adventuring gear (the comments below list more).
f it's not just an ignorance thing, and your players are actually disinclined to help one another, direct them to the Field Guide, where it outlines what is expected of a pathfinder -- not the least of which is akin to that scout adage, "be prepared." If you present it as, "this will make you more powerful," they may be more inclined to help out.
I'm not sure it is "disinclined to help" as much as it is a firmly entrenched role. "My job is put holes in things. If the situation doesn't call for putting holes in things, I'm not involved." I think they are still stuck on thinking that there should and WILL be someone else in the group to fill all the major roles.
With all the stuff written and talked about it, I would have thought more of them would have realized that plan doesn’t work as well in PFS as in a regular home game.
Indeed. Also, in tabletop RPG in general -- even if you're playing a guy that just puts holes in things, you're still expected to RP. Perhaps having these guys play through some RP heavy scenarios, like The Blakros Matrimony or Murder on the Throaty Mermaid, will show them the error of their ways.
I often find that the some of the best gaming comes from people doing things that are far outside their character's norm. Like a rogue using a wand to save a dying friend, or a cleric getting a crit with his crossbow just before the monster kills a teammate. Just because you put holes in things doesn't mean you can't contribute to all the non-violent parts of PFS. This isn't a video game.
When I played Blakros my combat chracter sucks royally. We failed so hard we got no prestige.
When i made my Inquisitor, I made sure to to make sure he can do damage and do some nice RP. That saved our lives at one point.
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I think we have two different arguments going on. One is saying to build your character well-rounded, and the other is to play your character well-rounded.
I take issue with people telling me how to build my character. If I want to play the 5 charisma beat stick or druid (I do have a 5 charisma druid), then let me. I will face the consequences of my build.
However, I do agree that people should play their character well-rounded. That's just part of being a great player. And that could mean failing horribly at talking to people.
I think the main complaint here is that not all characters do everything? That's the only thing I can take from it. "You can't predict your party." Well, that's a natural result of playing in an organized play party. Unless you're willing to multi-class 4 classes to be a pure generalist, you're going to have some holes in your characters.
To say that you saved your party by having high charisma makes a great story. Guess what? My bard has saved a party by doing obscene amounts of archer damage. If they didn't have that damage, they would have failed the mission (and ended up dead).
And putting a rank into something isn't going to be great for everyone. Guess what 1 rank in perception gives an oracle with 10 wisdom (barring other bonuses)? +1 perception. That's not going to save the world or anything.
Really, I'm not sure what this argument is headed for. You can't predict what's in a scenario (usually....;), so being prepared is about the best you can do.
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When my group played the Blakros Matrimony, we had many people built to handle the social aspect of the mission, but once we reached the end, we were all limping away due to the fact that we could not directly engage the situation due to our well-roundness when something like that needed straight brute force applied.
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When my group played the Blakros Matrimony, we had many people built to handle the social aspect of the mission, but once we reached the end, we were all limping away due to the fact that we could not directly engage the situation due to our well-roundness when something like that needed straight brute force applied.
I think some people (not specifically picking on you) tend to conflate "well-rounded" with "good at social skills but fairly poor in combat".
If one PC focuses on being awesome with his greatsword (but sucks in social situations), and another PC focuses on being awesome in social situations (but contributes very little in combat), the latter is no more well-rounded than the former, yet that seems to be what people are sometimes really talking about when they say "well-rounded".
My cleric is well-rounded. He can do well in both melee combat and social situations, has a couple of Knowledge skills, can swim and climb competently, has solid saves, and is a strong caster.
Is he as strong in any one of those areas as someone who specializes in that area? No. But having a party full of him and his clones would not be limping away from a fight (or from a social encounter). Why? Because he's actually well-rounded, not well-rounded in a "euphemism for sucking at combat" sort of way.
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different areas will have different mixes. If you see a shortage of something - make a PC to fill the gap. If it's fun, play it.
someone should start a thread (again) for what PC classes everyone runs.
here's my list...
1. Rogue (Trapssmith - with a wizards spellbook)
2. Cleric (Armored Combat medic)
3. Bard (I own face skills)
4. Alchemist (Buffing Blaster)
5. Rogue (Combat Blademaster)
6. Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickester
7. Cleric (another armored Combat Medic)
8. Ftr/Cav - (Dogrider/Face)
9. Bard (Detective/Face)That makes 2 Clerics, 3 rogues, 2 wizards, 1 Arcane Blaster... looking at this it seems like we really need some "front line Max Damage" types.
Your cavalier isn't? Each I see has a lance and spirited charge...
EDIT: I like the list; it's good that you like being a talky type -- most people don't