used to be in 1e there was a rule if a mage needed to read a spell directly out of his spellbook, it was risky and dangerous but could still be done.
Is there such a rule in existance any more, I could not find one.
Not that I have seen as an actual rule.
Given the cost of a spell book though, there's nothing saying that they technically could not be used - perhaps a Spellcraft check is in order?
I use basically the same system as was presented in 1st Edition Unearthed Arcana. Here is the original wording:
Here is my wording:
I think this might have some unforseen consequences.
This way, spellbooks can be used as very cheap scrolls, since they do not cost anything to inscribe.
The cost of 100 gp for a spellbook is cheaper than any scroll with a spell-level higher than 1. Furthermore it does not require a feat to write in a spellbook.
I can see why it might be grand to have a spellcaster throwing spells at a risk from his spellbook, when the party is in dire peril, and he is out of spells which might save them. But I think these circumstances should require a GM ruling, rather than changes to the rules which might do more harm than good.
Edit: Just realized that it is only 15 gold for the spellbook...
If the cost for inscribing the spells were more in line with the cost of a scroll this would be reasonable, unless you change the current pricing guidelines it's kind of a bargain as has been pointed out.
I like the casting from the spellbook bit. Of course the bonded item adds a bit of that flavor to the wizard.
If the cost for inscribing the spells were more in line with the cost of a scroll this would be reasonable, unless you change the current pricing guidelines it's kind of a bargain as has been pointed out.
I like the casting from the spellbook bit. Of course the bonded item adds a bit of that flavor to the wizard.
holy cow! I think we totally forgot the wizard had bonded item, HAH! So he could have cast that spell (without reading it from his book)
UGH (beats head against wall) *Shaking fist at new rules that haven't sunk in yet*
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I loved the casting spells from books in a pinch bit. Even though it is a cheap way to go scroll wise, it is also depriving you of that spell until you can reconstitute your book. However, I also feel that there should be a chance of worse things happening than just messing up your book. A chance you can mess up the spell, perhaps targeting yourself instead.
holy cow! I think we totally forgot the wizard had bonded item, HAH! So he could have cast that spell (without reading it from his book)Once...
well all we needed was once! and heck casting from the spell book is REALLY once!
One small problem before people complain about "cheap scroll" : the wizard cannot prepare the spell again until it is replaced in his spell book. If that wizard does not have that spell prepared and still in memory ... they just LOST the spell.
And in many circumstances, that means they may have to wait until they advance a level to replace that spell in their spellbook! O.o
As near as I can tell, from the rules I posted above, partially duplicating a spellbook (by partially I mean one spell) costs 15 gp for the blank book, 50 gp per spell level, expending a prepared spell slot, and 30 min per spell level.One small problem before people complain about "cheap scroll" : the wizard cannot prepare the spell again until it is replaced in his spell book. If that wizard does not have that spell prepared and still in memory ... they just LOST the spell.
And in many circumstances, that means they may have to wait until they advance a level to replace that spell in their spellbook! O.o
Not denegrating your interpretation of the 1e rule regarding doing so nor the proposed partial re-transcription at all WWWW.
Wizards are seldom strong (and tactically savvy ones carry at worst a medium encumbrance load unless absolutely necessary), spellbooks are heavy (~5 lbs each, not to mention they are not exactly as easy to ready as a loaded crossbow or a dagger) and subject to ruination by immersion in water (or other, nastier fluids), and are often strapped for cash just to afford their spell book in the first place.
I think my point is: Joe Wizard does not have spell A in memory/prepared and in desperation to solve problem #35, Joe casts spell A from his spellbook in the course of resolving the encounter.
Now poor Joe doesn't have the spell available to him to prepare at any later point until such time as he re-acquires that spell and once more scribes it into his spellbook (at the PHB-prescribed time requirements, which are slower than scribing a spell scroll). If he does enough adventuring to warrant advancing another level of wizard, it is likely that he has to use 1 of his 2 "free" spells for doing so to replace that spell in his spellbook.
Past 7th level, certainly past 9th level, as a wizard, acquiring spells is statistically problematic. NPCs simply are not present in sufficient numbers to readily provide spells after anywhere from as low as 2nd level spells to no higher than 5th level spells. (Based on the DMG information on NPC density by class as proportionate to the population of the city.) Then they gotta track down the NPCs that potentially could have the spell they seek; interact with them in a presumably non-violent fashion; conclude what ever is determined to be the necessary transaction; THEN transcribe the spell into their spellbook once more.
This option would work if it was only used as a last ditch measure. But without some restrictions this is basically cheap scrolls with some downsides. However since scrolls are much more expensive after a point the restrictions probably do not outweigh the benefits given the existence of the handy haversack.Not denegrating your interpretation of the 1e rule regarding doing so nor the proposed partial re-transcription at all WWWW.
Wizards are seldom strong (and tactically savvy ones carry at worst a medium encumbrance load unless absolutely necessary), spellbooks are heavy (~5 lbs each, not to mention they are not exactly as easy to ready as a loaded crossbow or a dagger) and subject to ruination by immersion in water (or other, nastier fluids), and are often strapped for cash just to afford their spell book in the first place.
I think my point is: Joe Wizard does not have spell A in memory/prepared and in desperation to solve problem #35, Joe casts spell A from his spellbook in the course of resolving the encounter.
Now poor Joe doesn't have the spell available to him to prepare at any later point until such time as he re-acquires that spell and once more scribes it into his spellbook (at the PHB-prescribed time requirements, which are slower than scribing a spell scroll). If he does enough adventuring to warrant advancing another level of wizard, it is likely that he has to use 1 of his 2 "free" spells for doing so to replace that spell in his spellbook.
Past 7th level, certainly past 9th level, as a wizard, acquiring spells is statistically problematic. NPCs simply are not present in sufficient numbers to readily provide spells after...
In general play I would agree - although it is worth noting that the Handy Haversack requires a move action to get the book out. Book doesn't come out open, so at a minimum that's a full-round action WITH reading-grade illumination already in place to fire off a standard-action spell - and this is arguably a two full-round action sequence. The wizard cannot deploy a spell from his spellbook any where nearly as fast as a spell can be read off of a scroll under the same circumstances.
Frankly though, how likely are you as a player to deliberately burn spells out of your spell book when you have them prepared? Why SPEND money you don't have to? The in-game reason to blast spells out of your spell book I cannot grasp save as that measure of last-ditch desperation described.
Now, burning spells out of captured spellbooks I can see being a potential problem. A haversack loaded with nothing else has an absolute maximum of 24 such books contained within it. My groups are generally utterly mercenary enough to sell captured spell books off as fast as possible once they scavanged the contents.
'Course, this is why I have become more inclined to remove spellbooks from the game altogether other than as "sources of lore". You can learn a spell from them - but once learned, it is nothing more than a reference.
Not that I have seen as an actual rule.
Given the cost of a spell book though, there's nothing saying that they technically could not be used - perhaps a Spellcraft check is in order?
Actually, the Official 3.5 FAQ answers to this exact question:
"Can a wizard cast a spell directly from his spellbook? If so what effects on the spellbook are there?
No, you cannot use a spellbook like a scroll. A spellbook contains notes for preparing a spell, but it’s not a precast spell just waiting to be activated as a scroll is."
Allowing a Wizard to cast directly from a Spellbook was a highly-abusable tactic in my old days of D&D (BECMI edition), especially with all the 'Grimoires' taken from fallen enemy Wizards; fortunately (for me), this is no more possible in 3.x edition, and I truly hope it stays the same in Pathfinder for the future.
Just my 2c...
And remember,
if you leave a spell slot un-prep'ed, if you find a situation needing "just the right spell",
you can take a bit of time to prepare and cast it (good for utility when not rushed)
And remember,
if you leave a spell slot un-prep'ed, if you find a situation needing "just the right spell",
you can take a bit of time to prepare and cast it (good for utility when not rushed)
Hmm where does it say you can do that?
see alot of spells like detect secret doors are exactly that, utility.
I could see the intelligence of not preparing say a spell slot or two per level.
Then when utility arises, you can read, prepare the spell, then cast in say 1-2 hours. without having to sleep, rememorize and take at least 8 hours to do so.
"Ooops we have no knock spell prepared, better make camp"
Pendagast here is what I believe you are looking for. In the Beta on page 165, right hand column:
"Preparing some smaller portion of her daily capacity takes
a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at
least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve
the proper mental state.
When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave
some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she
can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes,
time and circumstances permitting. During these extra
sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused
spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously
prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot
that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime.
That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest.
Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at
least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares
more than one-quarter of her spells."
I hope this helps. I have not read through all of this thread so I may be totally out of line. If so, I apologize for busting in.
Just my 2 cp.
Just a thought.
What if it was made into some sort of feat. Something like.
Good name here(sorry couldn't think of one)
The caster can now cast spells from his spellbook as though he had prepared them that day.
Prerequisits: Prepares spells from spellbook.
Discription: The caster makes a caster level check DC 15+level of spell to cast. if the check succeeds the spell is cast as if he had prepared it that day, and the spell is eraised from the spellbook. if the check is failed by 5 or more the entire spellbook is destroyed.
1) this way the chance of the book being destroyed is higher, though it becomes easier over time to avoid that.
2) the character has used a feat to gain this ability
3) the spell is cast like a normal spell so he still has all the materal components to take care of (unlike scrolls)
Ah hah, I think the 3e version of casting from a spell book (and of course its abuses prior) has been unearthed for all to see.
Meaning, the leave 1 or 2 slots per spell level unprepared and then later on take a 30 minute breather (set light source, bust out the picnic basket, prep a spell or two) then keep going part. :)
Great job!
Ah hah, I think the 3e version of casting from a spell book (and of course its abuses prior) has been unearthed for all to see.
Meaning, the leave 1 or 2 slots per spell level unprepared and then later on take a 30 minute breather (set light source, bust out the picnic basket, prep a spell or two) then keep going part. :)
Great job!
aha YES! very true Turin, Silverhair found the perfect answer, coupled with the bonded item free spell all the "utility" the wizard needs is the flexibility of leaving a few spell slots open for those unforseen spells.
Buffs, and combat spells can be taken in the morning preparation and its pretty much all good.One last question, can the bonded item spell be used for counterspelling??
Here is some more information, found on page 155 of the Beta:
"How Counterspells Work: To use a counterspell, you
must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell.
You do this by choosing to ready an action. In doing so, you
elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent
tries to cast a spell. You may still move your speed, since
ready is a standard action.
If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell,
make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This
check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly
identify the opponent’s spell and can attempt to counter it.
If the check fails, you can’t do either of these things.
To complete the action, you must then cast the correct
spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you
are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (if
you prepare spells), you cast it, altering it slightly to create a
counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells
automatically negate each other with no other results."
As I understand it, if the spell in your bonded item is the exact spell you want to counterspell, then it could be done. A verification from the Paizo Gang would be appreciated.
Just my 2 cp.
Here is some more information, found on page 155 of the Beta:
"How Counterspells Work: To use a counterspell, you
must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell.
You do this by choosing to ready an action. In doing so, you
elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent
tries to cast a spell. You may still move your speed, since
ready is a standard action.
If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell,
make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This
check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly
identify the opponent’s spell and can attempt to counter it.
If the check fails, you can’t do either of these things.
To complete the action, you must then cast the correct
spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you
are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (if
you prepare spells), you cast it, altering it slightly to create a
counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells
automatically negate each other with no other results."As I understand it, if the spell in your bonded item is the exact spell you want to counterspell, then it could be done. A verification from the Paizo Gang would be appreciated.
Just my 2 cp.
Yea thats what I was thinking, any comment from paizo?
I think that there are two things to look at with the bonded item.
First, it can cast any spell the wizard / bonded arcanist knows (as I read the ability) once per day.
And second, counterspelling requires a readied action last I recall.
So, if the wizard is successful in the skill check to recognize the spell coming down the pipe and has an applicable spell available via the Arcane Bond item, they get to counterspell.